Gassed up today

[Rick Potter]

While we were on a trip last week a war started and gas prices went crazy everywhere. Got back Monday night. Today, Friday, we decided to gas up two cars. The cheapest gas we saw while driving around was $5.47 for reg unleaded at an Arco station. That was cash, credit was $5.67. We pulled into Costco where we usually get it, and got in line not knowing what the price would be.

We guessed that it would be $5.25 or so, but when we got to the pump 24 minutes later (yup...long line) we found it was $5.05. Went home, had dinner and took another car back and filled it up.


We saved over $6 on each car fill up by going there, compared to the lowest price anywhere else.

This is California. How about your area?

Pleeze..no politics.

[Stan Calow]

Our gas is around $3.79. Missouri has the lowest state gas tax and people are astounded that the roads and bridges are so bad. I am surprised CA has different prices cash v credit.

[Curt Harms]

Our gas is around $3.79. Missouri has the lowest state gas tax and people are astounded that the roads and bridges are so bad. I am surprised CA has different prices cash v credit.

New Jersey has cash/credit pricing. It's usually 6 to 10 cents per gallon. Convenience store/gas stations don't usually have the split, it seems many gas station only places do. Pennsylvania and Delaware don't usually do the dual pricing.

[Lee Schierer]

Gas in NW Pennsylvania is about $4.39, some places give a discount with direct pay cards, loyalty cards or cash from 5 to 20 cents per gallon. NE Ohio is about 1 cent per gallon cheaper than PA.

[Matt Day]

It’s around $4.5-5/gallon here in Indiana. So a fill up is about $15 more than it was a couple weeks ago. I feel lucky that we aren’t hurt for money and $15 is no big deal.

[Phil Mueller]

Merchant credit card fees are typically 1 1/2% for most cards and up to 3% or so for AMEX. While not a huge deal, 20 cents a gallon for using a credit card (which is what it is around me in Michigan) is twice what it takes to cover a cc fee. Seems fees have become another profit center (albeit, small). The cost of connivence, I guess.

[Rod Sheridan]

$1.80 per litre here Rick, gasoline is cheap where you are…….Regards, Rod

[Paul F Franklin]

Stations around me in Akron/Cleveland Ohio area are at $4.09 today according to gas buddy, which is actually a dime or so less than when I filled up a few days ago.

Have any of you signed up for any station's direct pay program? I haven't because I assumed to avoid CC fee they must directly debit your bank account and I don't particularly want my account info anywhere else....But I don't really know if that's how they work.... Some stations offer significant savings for using those programs...way more than the CC fees would be. My cynical side says once enough folks are doing it, the price advantage will slowly go away??

[Scott Clausen]

Not trying to pick a fight here but I am amazed at the amount of people that drive (?) miles and sit in line for twenty minutes to save $6 on a tank full. Between driving several miles and idling for a half hour the savings are probably closer to $3. I do try to avoid any locations that are near interstates or airports that are always high priced but but pretty much just go to the local pups that are on my route and close my eyes. On that same note I also have started filling up at the half tank level. I am not sure when or if the supply will get limited.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Have any of you signed up for any station's direct pay program? I haven't because I assumed to avoid CC fee they must directly debit your bank account and I don't particularly want my account info anywhere else....But I don't really know if that's how they work.... Some stations offer significant savings for using those programs...way more than the CC fees would beYes - that's exactly how those direct pay cards work. You link the card to your bank account and they take the money directly out.
We have them linked to one of our lesser accounts so if it gets hacked and/or broken into, there's only a few hundred dollars.
We have one for Get-Go (Giant Eagle) and one for Circle K.

[Michael Weber]

Here in the wilderness and jungles of western Arkansas it’s around $3.60 plus or minus. We live in town, drive little and have a 12 year old hybrid and 20 year old Tacoma so I’m fortunate in that respect.

[Rick Potter]

That 20 cents extra for credit is a new thing. It was 10 cents for several years at some stations, and doubled when we got back.

Scott, both cars are plug in hybrids, no gas was used in our outing. We almost always get it at the Costco which is about 5 miles from home. We did it, because gas is going up at least a dime a day for the last 10 days, some days double that.

We normally gas up every 3 to 4 months.

[Doug Garson]

$1.80 per litre here Rick, gasoline is cheap where you are…….Regards, Rod
That works out to $5.35 US per gallon, no I didn't do the math myself, I literally googled "convert $1.80 Canadian per litre to US $ per gallon". In the Vancouver area, Gas Buddy reports a range of $2.179 to $2.509 CND per litre, ouch that's $6.47 to $7.46 US per gallon.

[Bill Dufour]

$5.31 the other day here. The interesting thing to me is the cost of premium gas. Regardless of the cost of regular it is +ten cents for mid grade and +20 cents for premium. You would think when gas doubles in price the premium differential would change. Everything else has gone up in price why not that extra bit?
Bill D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I noticed one station was at $4.05 here yesterday.

[Kev Williams]

I don't know who's paying only 1.5% in CC fees, sure wish that's all I paid--

The reason for the CC surcharge is so cash payers don't get penalized for the CC fees-- the math is pretty simple: a 30 gallon fill at $2 per is $60, 2% vig is $1.20 Now simply do nothing but raise the price of gas to $5.50, a fill is now $165 and the 2% vig is now $3.30, a 275% fee increase that the gas station has to eat, and due to no fault of their own. Cash sales saves them money, so they offer buyers a choice..

[Bruce Wrenn]

I don't know who's paying only 1.5% in CC fees, sure wish that's all I paid--

The reason for the CC surcharge is so cash payers don't get penalized for the CC fees-- the math is pretty simple: a 30 gallon fill at $2 per is $60, 2% vig is $1.20 Now simply do nothing but raise the price of gas to $5.50, a fill is now $165 and the 2% vig is now $3.30, a 275% fee increase that the gas station has to eat, and due to no fault of their own. Cash sales saves them money, so they offer buyers a choice..Both wife and I only use gas company branded CC, except where there are none of that brand. Discounts range from 5 to 30 cents per gallon, depending upon usage. Saw an interesting report the other day. Said if we slowed down to speed limit, nationally we would reduce our gas usage by 14%. Earlier this week, took wife to doctor, which is 30 miles one way. Drove on both interstate, and interstate quality road, driving the speed limit. In 30 miles didn't pass a single car, but most passed me. Some were running close to 100, based upon how fast they came by us. Same thing when light turns green. Some act like they were shot out of a cannon, only to be waiting at next light when we got there. Currently, we are paying $4.15 -$4.19 per gallon. I remember back in 1978 when the national 55 speed limit took place. Two police cars would ride down the interstate, side by side for miles. When they exited the ramp, another pair would come down the ramp on the other side of intersection.

[Lee Schierer]

I haven't because I assumed to avoid CC fee they must directly debit your bank account and I don't particularly want my account info anywhere else....But I don't really know if that's how they work.... Some stations offer significant savings for using those programs...way more than the CC fees would be. My cynical side says once enough folks are doing it, the price advantage will slowly go away??

If you pay anyone with a check they have your bank routing number and account number. It's printed right on the check.

[Paul F Franklin]

If you pay anyone with a check they have your bank routing number and account number. It's printed right on the check.

Of course you're right, which is one reason why I generally avoid paying anything by paper check unless there's no other way. I just looked and I wrote 9 paper checks last year. I'm sure I'm being overly cautious.

[Jamie Buxton]

Name brand regular costs $6/gallon here, for cash and credit. No-name regular costs $5.40, but they only take cash or debit cards -- no credit. I can't believe that using a credit card adds 10% to the bill, but that what it seems.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Today it $4.29 when I filled the wife's car up and washed it.

[Ronald Blue]

I bought gas Thursday for $3.65 in Bowling Green Missouri and for $3.89 yesterday at Circle K in Burlington Iowa. It's $4.48 here now or $4.38 with Circle K card. I forget the name of the company that it goes through but I've had zero issue with the Circle K store card. You have to use a pin number to authorize it. It is direct linked to my bank account but that's never been an issue. So is Paypal although my default setting goes to a credit card. I'm sure we haven't saw the end of the gas price increases and diesel is getting even more ridiculous. Expect everything to get much more expensive as fuel surcharges are levied against the freight of all types.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Expect everything to get much more expensive as fuel surcharges are levied against the freight of all types.Look at the trucking You tubes.You will notice what companies are willing to pay for freight has gone DOWN. The owner operators who are in lease to own agreements are hurting-BIG TIME! One of the channels reported that one owner operator was within two grand of paying off his lease, but due to rising costs and suppressed rates, couldn't pay his lease off. This meant leasing company took his truck back, along with the equity he had built up over the last five years. Basically meant he worked for nothing for the last five years. He could make more being a greeter at Walmart, and also be home every night.

[Rollie Meyers]

I pay a 45 cent debit card/convenience fee at the station I use, they have not broken the $6 barrier yet while most others have, filled a couple of gas cans & topped off the truck with diesel, little over 9 gallons of diesel was $37.53, we have not seen the end of price hikes. There are some who want 8 buck gas nationwide.

[Curt Harms]

I pay a 45 cent debit card/convenience fee at the station I use, they have not broken the $6 barrier yet while most others have, filled a couple of gas cans & topped off the truck with diesel, little over 9 gallons of diesel was $37.53, we have not seen the end of price hikes. There are some who want 8 buck gas nationwide.

And that's a significant part IMO. How to make my expensive options palatable? Make other cheaper options more expensive.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes - that's exactly how those direct pay cards work. You link the card to your bank account and they take the money directly out.
We have them linked to one of our lesser accounts so if it gets hacked and/or broken into, there's only a few hundred dollars.
We have one for Get-Go (Giant Eagle) and one for Circle K.

Do they give you the same discount for using your debit card?

Regards, Rod

[Tom M King]

Just by dumb luck, I saved myself some dollars. Back when the Olympics were running, I decided to fill everything up in preparation for grass cutting season. I put the 100 gallon off-road diesel tank in the pickup, and the just bought 33 gallon gas container with a hand crank pump. I had just bought the 33 gallon tank because the newest mower has two 7-1/2 gallon tanks, and is kind of aggravating filling it with 5 gallon cans.

I went and filled up those tanks, along with a half dozen 5 gallon cans, came home and filled everything here up, including the Farm Use car, except for the generator that I don't keep gas in. After I had filled everything up (one tractor holds 26 gallons of diesel, and the other 40 something), I figured I might as well go fill the tanks up again "since they were already on the truck, and otherwise I would have to handle them twice". I also filled up the pickup's 56 gallon diesel tank while I was there for well less than $4 a gallon. I don't drive that truck many miles any more, so that tankful should last until prices come back down.

I don't remember exactly when that was, other than during the Olympics, but non-ethanol was 3.99, and off road diesel was less than 3 bucks a gallon.

Just dumb luck that I did that before prices skyrocketed, but I probably have enough diesel for the whole season, and enough gas for the mowers to take care of most of it.

[Jason Roehl]

I’m surprised you guys don’t remember the difference between cash price and CC. I started driving in the early ‘90s, got my first car in January of 1994 (bought a motorcycle the previous fall for my first wheels). Back then, gas was around $1.10-$1.15/gal, and there was a 4-cent/gal surcharge to use a credit or debit card. Being a poor college student, I always hit the cheapest station that wasn’t too far out of my way, and paid cash. I also always filled up, couldn’t stand doing the $5 here, $10 there fill up. I had friends that did that, and it seemed like we were always stopping at a gas station if we went somewhere in their vehicle. Anyway, I was ecstatic when pay-at-the-pump came along, for two reasons: one, they did away with the credit card surcharge to encourage PATP use, and two, I didn’t have to go in the store and wait in line to pay behind people who insisted on scratching off multiple rounds of lottery tickets.

I filled my motorcycle (not the one I bought in ‘93, not by a long shot) last Saturday for $4.699/gal for premium. I think I saw $4.25/gal for regular on my way out for dinner last night. Either way, I use the GasBuddy app to find the cheapest gas that’s more or less on my way when I need gas, but that usually ends up being Sam’s Club, which is in sight of my commute to/from work, so that’s mostly where I stop. Sometimes I’ll hit Meijer because we have their CC, which saves us $0.10/gal at the pump when we use it.

[Ronald Blue]

I’m surprised you guys don’t remember the difference between cash price and CC. I started driving in the early ‘90s, got my first car in January of 1994 (bought a motorcycle the previous fall for my first wheels). Back then, gas was around $1.10-$1.15/gal, and there was a 4-cent/gal surcharge to use a credit or debit card. Being a poor college student, I always hit the cheapest station that wasn’t too far out of my way, and paid cash. I also always filled up, couldn’t stand doing the $5 here, $10 there fill up. I had friends that did that, and it seemed like we were always stopping at a gas station if we went somewhere in their vehicle. Anyway, I was ecstatic when pay-at-the-pump came along, for two reasons: one, they did away with the credit card surcharge to encourage PATP use, and two, I didn’t have to go in the store and wait in line to pay behind people who insisted on scratching off multiple rounds of lottery tickets.

I filled my motorcycle (not the one I bought in ‘93, not by a long shot) last Saturday for $4.699/gal for premium. I think I saw $4.25/gal for regular on my way out for dinner last night. Either way, I use the GasBuddy app to find the cheapest gas that’s more or less on my way when I need gas, but that usually ends up being Sam’s Club, which is in sight of my commute to/from work, so that’s mostly where I stop. Sometimes I’ll hit Meijer because we have their CC, which saves us $0.10/gal at the pump when we use it.

When I was a 16 year old $5 bucks got me a significant amount of gas. As I recall it was 34 cents a gallon. I never benefited because I was to young but recall late 60's "gas wars" and 18 or 19 cents a gallon. I guess the positive thing is I still remember those prices. I recall a few places doing a higher price for CC payers but it wasn't all stations. Yes I love pay at the pump for the reason you mentioned.

[Jim Becker]

The cash/CC thing in NJ is real, but some stations don't do that (like WAWA and Costco) and have similar pricing to the cash offers no matter how one pays. It's not a thing too much here in PA, although there are instances of it in my observation. I don't really carry cash, other than a few shekels for emergency use, so I'm not going to pay for gas that way. Our Costco Citi CC has 4% rebate on gasoline and since we also buy 99% of our gas at our local Costco, there's further savings over other sources because of the better price (20-30 cents lower), even in the current situation. Lately, I've been topping off to stay a little ahead of rising prices if I'm going there for something else, rather than waiting until the vehicle I happen to be driving gets down to about a quarter tank like in "normal" times...

---

Tom, that was a really fortunate decision for you to set yourself up with all that fuel! Almost like a winning lottery ticket!

[Jim Koepke]

Not trying to pick a fight here but I am amazed at the amount of people that drive (?) miles and sit in line for twenty minutes to save $6 on a tank full. Between driving several miles and idling for a half hour the savings are probably closer to $3.

Most intelligent people do not idle while waiting in line for gas.

Todays prices in Longview, WA:

475781

Fred Meyer has a reward card. The fuel reward for every $100 in groceries or other items is 10¢/gallon up to $1.00/gallon. They do not distinguish between cash or CC. Many stations do.

If a retailer has to pay the bank a fee for accepting CCs, they either have to make up for it with higher prices for the users of CCs or raise prices for those paying cash.

jtk

[Kev Williams]

I still remember one afternoon sitting with some friends at Denny's drinking coffee, all of us totally incredulous at the thought of only getting TWO gallons of gas for a buck!

We all swore that if that ever happened, we'd sell our cars and ride horses... ;)

What I wouldn't give for 2 gallons of ANYTHING for buck these days...

[Jason Roehl]

When I was a 16 year old $5 bucks got me a significant amount of gas. As I recall it was 34 cents a gallon. I never benefited because I was to young but recall late 60's "gas wars" and 18 or 19 cents a gallon. I guess the positive thing is I still remember those prices. I recall a few places doing a higher price for CC payers but it wasn't all stations. Yes I love pay at the pump for the reason you mentioned.

The least I ever paid for gas was in 1998 when the oil industry had issues. I filled up my dual-tank F150 (usually about 36-37 gallons) for $28—$0.799/gal. The lowest price I ever remember seeing was in about 1988, and my dad filled the family van for $0.699/gal in Milton, KY (acroos the Ohio from Madison, IN, where we lived then).

[Jim Becker]

I topped off yesterday at Costco and it was down ten cents over my previous top-off at the end of the previous week. $4.29

[Roger Feeley]

It $4.29 in Falls Church VA (DC suburb). But we have a grocery store loyalty card that pays off in gas discount. I just got $1.00 off.

[Kev Williams]

when I was a kid in the '60's I remember gas was almost always 31 to 33 cents a gallon, didn't vary much. Right after I got my drivers license a place called USA opened up on State Street in Murray by someone pretty smart; the place was huge for the day, lots of pumps, regular was 25.9c, they had Coke/Pepsi machines and 35c a pack cigarette vending machines. Gas, soft drinks and cigarettes were all they sold, and they were the cheapest place to buy them. Open 24 hours and always busy...

[Jim Becker]

Kev, I remember 25 cent gas from the same time period which was prior to when I started driving. When I got my first vehicle as a 21st birthday present (a used 1969 Dodge Dart with a straight 6), the price was in the 45-50 cent range when I was driving back and forth to Penn State's campus in the middle of the state on some weekends.

[Rod Sheridan]

Kev, I remember 25 cent gas from the same time period which was prior to when I started driving. When I got my first vehicle as a 21st birthday present (a used 1969 Dodge Dart with a straight 6), the price was in the 45-50 cent range when I was driving back and forth to Penn State's campus in the middle of the state on some weekends.

Memories, I remember gas at 45 cents an Imperial gallon…..Not like that now…….Rod.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I drove 240 miles today and put $40 in the tank at $4.17 at a non-name brand gas station in Carthage NY. That was the cheapest I saw on the trip by more than a dime.

[Dave Zellers]

The lowest I saw during the gas wars was .17 but most stations were 18-19. A buddy had a Covair and for a quarter's worth of gas we were good for cruising around town that night.

Wish I could remember what a 6-pack went for. A couple bucks back then could entertain 3 guys on a Friday night. Saturday night (date night) was a different story.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, those "back in the day" prices are fun to think about...until you convert them to "present value". Sometimes that can be eye opening!

[Dave Zellers]

Yea, those "back in the day" prices are fun to think about...until you convert them to "present value". Sometimes that can be eye opening!


So true. But sometimes we would find the evening's gas quarter on the floor of the Covair. Not as likely today! :p

One thing that is true tho- life was much simpler then.

[John Goodin]

Just after everything hit the fan two weeks ago I filled up as usual at Costco. The lines were six or seven deep with the full size trucks and SUVs so common in central Texas. The weather was great, my windows were down, and I noticed just about everyone was else sitting there with their cars idling.

[Mel Fulks]

Years ago couple of guys were selling tablets that when dissolved in water worked like gasoline ! People didn’t believe it was possible,
until they saw it work ! Sadly the guys who formulated it ….did it by demonstrating the car was out of gas…but the car had a little gas…..
they put a big rubber bladder in the tank ,so when they added the water …and the pills (I almost forgot the pills!) it brought the gas up to
where it could be slurped up by the thirsty engine !

[Lee Schierer]

So true. But sometimes we would find the evening's gas quarter on the floor of the Covair. Not as likely today! :p

One thing that is true tho- life was much simpler then.

Yes, it is really hard to find a Corvair these days.....:eek:

[Jim Becker]

Just after everything hit the fan two weeks ago I filled up as usual at Costco. The lines were six or seven deep with the full size trucks and SUVs so common in central Texas. The weather was great, my windows were down, and I noticed just about everyone was else sitting there with their cars idling.

Yea, I've noticed that, too. I actually shut the Forester off while waiting, even though it has start/stop. But all the vehicles around me were sitting there burning fuel waiting to add more fuel. I'm noticing that many folks who are disappointed with their fuel economy with some vehicles also happen to be the ones that idle a lot...which is essentially "zero miles per gallon"

[Frank Pratt]

$1.67/liter last night. For you Americans, that converts to 'a lot'. Starting next month the provincial government is going to temporarily drop the $.13/liter road tax. It will remain that way until oil prices drop below a set level. Not a bad scheme because such a huge chunk of revenues come from crude, so they are still getting a windfall.

I've had to delete many sentences because I kept wandering into the political rant territory :mad:

[John Stankus]

$1.67/liter last night. For you Americans, that converts to 'a lot'. Starting next month the provincial government is going to temporarily drop the $.13/liter road tax. It will remain that way until oil prices drop below a set level. Not a bad scheme because such a huge chunk of revenues come from crude, so they are still getting a windfall.

I've had to delete many sentences because I kept wandering into the political rant territory :mad:

$1.67/liter translates to $6.32 per US gallon. If this is in Canadian dollars in converts to $4.93 USD/ gallon.

Conversions used 3.785 liters/US gallon, 1.00 CAD exchange rate is 0.78 USD (just googled)

Here in Texas I have been seeing $4.79-4.99 for diesel and around $3.99 for regular. (though the truckstops seems to be quite a bit higher on diesel in the mid $5 territory- just looked on GasBuddy and TA truckstop is listed as $5.41)

John

[Greg Funk]

$1.67/liter last night. For you Americans, that converts to 'a lot'. Starting next month the provincial government is going to temporarily drop the $.13/liter road tax. It will remain that way until oil prices drop below a set level. Not a bad scheme because such a huge chunk of revenues come from crude, so they are still getting a windfall.

I've had to delete many sentences because I kept wandering into the political rant territory :mad:It was $2.10/l here the other day for the highest prices in NA. Explains to some extent why there are so many Teslas on the road.

[Frank Pratt]

It was $2.10/l here the other day for the highest prices in NA. Explains to some extent why there are so many Teslas on the road.


Yikes! Alberta has historically had about the lowest gas prices in Canada. Not so with BC :(

[Greg Funk]

Yikes! Alberta has historically had about the lowest gas prices in Canada. Not so with BC :(We're the opposite here. Doesn't bother me as I'm using an EV or bicycle most of the time. One of the reasons for higher prices here is the high carbon taxes which are intended to reduce CO2 emissions by encouraging the use of more fuel efficient vehicles. I'm not sure how effective the taxes are as I think most people just complain more but still drive their large SUV or pickup.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I topped off yesterday at Costco and it was down ten cents over my previous top-off at the end of the previous week. $4.29


Bought gas today for wife's car. Posted price $3.99, down from $4.17 earlier this week, as in yesterday. With her gasoline company branded CC, price dropped to $3.89.

[Kev Williams]

I just got back from the Post Office awhile ago, was about 5:30, rush hour traffic galore, and the corner Sinclair station had exactly ZERO cars at any of the 12 pumps. $4.27 a gallon, down from $4.29 on Saturday-

[Bill Dufour]

Why doesn't the post office use electric city delivery vehicle?. They seem like the perfect fit. Short range, Low speeds, lightweight load, home every night.
UPS seems to have given up on their electric trucks here. A driver told me the batteries only lasted 3-5 years.
BilLD

[Stan Calow]

I think the USPS plan to go electric has hit the supply problem wall (the use chips too). But it was their plan.

[Greg Parrish]

Travelling around Florida last week, I had prices from $4.549/gallon to $4.799/gallon. Haven't checked this week but am guessing it's as high or higher. :(

[Jim Becker]

Why doesn't the post office use electric city delivery vehicle?. They seem like the perfect fit. Short range, Low speeds, lightweight load, home every night.
UPS seems to have given up on their electric trucks here. A driver told me the batteries only lasted 3-5 years.
BilLD
There was intention to go that way, but current top management seems to be bucking the idea. Unfortunately to discuss that in depth, things would have to go political. And we all know that's not something we can do here. Communicate with your congress-critters if it's as important to you as it is to me. Older generation test vehicles and the heavy cycles may certainly have resulted in what your carrier told you, BTW.

[Brian Deakin]

United kingdom price today 17 3 2022

Diesel $9.28 petrol $8.25 per US gallon

[John Terefenko]

Have you checked the price of a gallon of milk lately $5.25 here in NJ. More than a gal of gas to go get it.

[Rick Potter]

Hmm,

Picked up two gallons at Costco a few days ago. Cost less than $7 for the two.

[Kev Williams]

Milk--
476062

the ORGANIC stuff is $5.49...

[Dave Fritz]

Any my farm neighbors are going broke, it's a shame. What other business gets told what they can sell their product for? My neighbor is a part time farmer and trucker. When he hauls corn he tells the customer what it will cost and the customer decides. When he sells his corn he gets told what they'll pay. I guess he could keep it but really? Free enterprise?


Milk--
476062

the ORGANIC stuff is $5.49...

[John Goodin]

Costco is always cheapest here and try to fill up there when I can. Monday it was 3.89 plus the 4 percent rebate for paying with their credit card.

[Jim Becker]

Down another ten cents today at our local Costco... $4.19. Topped off the Forester as my older daughter needed some things in the store and, um...so did I. LOL That obviously means that the gas was a lot more expensive than the $25.00 of fuel I bought. :) :D

[Lawrence Duckworth]

476106.....I keep a 100 gallon tank for the wife's car. I don't like her going to these filling stations now days for safety reasons.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Locally here, gas has fallen to $3.87 before any discounts. Gas prices are like a rocket and a feather. Goes up like a rocket, and falls like a feather.

[Bruce Page]

I filled up today @ $4.53/gal. I remember .025/gal & .025/pack cigarettes. I haven't bought any cigarettes in decades but I still have to buy gas. :(

[Brian Elfert]

Any my farm neighbors are going broke, it's a shame. What other business gets told what they can sell their product for? My neighbor is a part time farmer and trucker. When he hauls corn he tells the customer what it will cost and the customer decides. When he sells his corn he gets told what they'll pay. I guess he could keep it but really? Free enterprise?

Farm products are traded on the commodities market so that is how the prices are set. I don't know the history of how that came to be. I think it would be a huge hassle if food producers and grocery wholesalers had to negotiate with thousands of farmers to determine what prices they would pay to each farmer for their product.

[Brian Elfert]

Costco's savings on gas can vary a lot from day to day. Two Saturdays ago I paid 50 cents per gallon less at Costco just after prices shot way up. Today Costco was only four cents per gallon less than other stations. I only stopped at Costco for gas today because I was driving by and there was no line early in the morning. It wouldn't have been worth waiting in line to save four cents per gallon.

[Mike Soaper]

Some prices around here have dropped by about 30 cents/gal after the state instituted a gas tax holiday for 30 days

[Scott Winners]

I run Chevron super (90 octane) in my tacoma as the cents per mile works out cheaper compared to buying lower octane gas and getting less mpg with the lower octane. I did some pretty intense data collection around the 15k mile mark (after the motor was broken in) and haven't looked back.

Anyroad, Chevron 90 octane (we can't buy 91/91 octane here) jumped up from 3.89 to US$4.05 around the time of hurricane Isaac or Isaiah back in Oct 2021, and pretty much stayed at 4.05 all winter. Last week I paid 4.89, today it was up to $5.17/US gallon for the same product at the same station.

I have been fairly stingy with my gasoline usage since it hit one dollar a gallon back in the early 1980s. I realized then it was only going to go up for the rest of my life. I would love to see my fuel back at $4.05 for another extended period, but I am not holding my breath for that to happen.

[Bill Dufour]

Regular has been holding at 5.29 this last week. Stalemate in Ukraine. Crude prices came down to a little over $100 a barrel from $150 when the war started
Bill D.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Some prices around here have dropped by about 30 cents/gal after the state instituted a gas tax holiday for 30 days

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that potholes will see a population boom.

Some semi-interesting stats for WTI:
Generally was steady ~$50 for all of 2019
May 2020, it went negative at Cushing OK (spot price), but I'll guess we can ignore this. Seems a common sentiment.

@ NMX
01 Dec 2021 = $65.50
14 Feb 2022 = $95.46 (46% increase / ~3 mo, driven by ...:confused::confused::confused::confused:)
08 Mar 2022 = $123.70 (30% increase / ~3wks, driven by ...Vlad?)
07 Apr 2022 = $96.03 (22% decrease)
...give or take a $0.01 here or % rounding error there.

Fascinating that the 30% increase got the crowd here into a participatory mood, while the 46% sailed by ....unnoticed? Was it just the 3mo vs 3wk interval? I guess Vlad should have just invaded more ssllllooooowwllllyyyyyy?

FWIW, I sit in a ~30 minute weekly meeting with 90-100 young, energetic, motivated, and SMART, people - scattered through the desert - all trying their very best to keep the US energy independent AND your WTI cost <$70. And all within the rules dictated by the landowner.
*****************
Nary a mention of forbidden-ness. We'll see how long this post lasts. Anybody got a stop watch?

[roger wiegand]

Perspective-- you're still paying less per mile than during much of the last four decades:

477385

[Bruce Wrenn]

In our town, down main drag, gas prices range from $3.55 to $3.75. This price doesn't include any discounts, which range from three cents to ten cents. Go to adjourning town, and prices are higher ($3.90 -$4.09.) Same brands of gas and stations. It's a rip off when same brand of gas and vendor cost this much difference in one town to another, even though they are less than five miles apart.

[Patrick McCarthy]

paid $6.39 for premium last night.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

paid $6.39 for premium last night.


le'me put that in "PERSPECTIVE" for you.....477466

[Warren Lake]

thats bad, not only did he get screwed its slotted.

[Curt Harms]

thats bad, not only did he get screwed its slotted.

Something a woodworker would notice :D

[Greg Parrish]

477481

thought this funny considering …..

[Malcolm McLeod]

In our town, down main drag, gas prices range from $3.55 to $3.75. This price doesn't include any discounts, which range from three cents to ten cents. Go to adjourning town, and prices are higher ($3.90 -$4.09.) Same brands of gas and stations. It's a rip off when same brand of gas and vendor cost this much difference in one town to another, even though they are less than five miles apart.

Illustrative of previous posts about this - - the major O&G companies divested their retail operations several years ago. Most don't even nationally advertise fuel anymore. Pump prices are set by the local and regional owners of these retail stations, aka your friends and neighbors.

I doubt y'all need a discussion of the factors that go into this pricing, but you pay for everything from the bulk fuel, to location convenience, additives, and clean bathrooms. Hopefully you get proper perceived value for your money, and if not, maybe ride a bike? Or adopt Elon?:cool:

$3.56/gal for regular (86 octane) here last night*; still applying the full complement of... uhm, ...pothole prevention fees.

*-with CC, no memberships/discounts :: just to-the-public-price. 93 octane Premium was $4.18/gal

[Brian Elfert]

I paid $3.469 at Costco last night. This Costco is a business center with a fairly new gas station so the lines aren't long like a regular Costco. The gas station opened last last August or September. They had really low prices at first to get people to use the new gas station. I believe I paid $2.49 when they first opened. That was still a fair bit less than the going rate at other stations.

[Kev Williams]

Cost difference of gas across the country, really a thorn for me-

Because?
today's national average:
477500

price of gas in the SLC area today:
477501
--almost 40c more per gallon.

Why does this piss me off?
--Refineries in the SLC area:
477502

and they get most of the oil they refine from Utah, Wyoming and Colorado...

So--
There's umpteen refineries within 15 miles of where I'm sitting,
they get most of their oil by truck from a couple hundred miles away,
and to top it off, because we're at 4400', our regular grade is only 85 octane...!

Cheap transportation of oil in every way, and the lowest quality gas possible,
is somehow worth a 40 cent per gallon upcharge...

oy

[Malcolm McLeod]

Mr. Williams, your first map perfectly illustrates the high cost of certain 'group requirements' to the consumer. Unlike clean restrooms, they are tough to avoid. As a Moderator so eloquently stated, "Talk to your Congress critter." (TOS = I'll leave it at that.)

[Brian Elfert]

Utah has always had higher gas prices than Wyoming for some reason. Utah's gas tax is only 8 cents higher than Wyoming, but the price difference is usually more than eight cents.

Strangely enough, the SLC Costco close to the airport generally has really good diesel prices. I don't know about gasoline as I am always driving through in a diesel powered vehicle.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Utah has always had higher gas prices than Wyoming for some reason. Utah's gas tax is only 8 cents higher than Wyoming, but the price difference is usually more than eight cents. ....

Often differences are deep in the supply chain. One example: directional drilling has been a real game changer. Build 1 surface drill pad and drill 2, 3, or 20 wells from the same pad. A bull-dozer just pulls the drill rig to a 30' offset from the last well, and then start drilling the next well. But some 'groups' weigh in and an environmental impact study may be required for both, or all. Not 1 report stapled to both permit applications, but a totally separate study for each. Things change in 30'!

Or, what loops have to be jumped thru to build a lease road? And on, and on. In Mr. Williams' case, though I've no known professional affiliation to any on his map, I suspect those refineries have a higher 'group imposed' operating cost?

[Rick Potter]

Well, it's been a month since I started this thread, so I thought I would update.

As mentioned, I paid $5.05 for regular at my Costco a month ago.

Today, it is $5.19. Same Costco. Just updating. Some big names near highways are asking $6.00. In the trendier places near L.A. it's $6.89 according to the news which naturally reports the highest price places.

[Mike Soaper]

Paid $3.85 for premium at Sams today, $.38 gas tax holiday ends Monday so I suspect the gas lines might be a bit long this weekend.

[Malcolm McLeod]

In case anyone likes anecdotes, here's a fresh one...

Just got off a production planning call and we're trying to bring 3 new oil wells into production, with flow to an existing tank battery (where oil/gas/water separation is handled). They are drilled and frac'd - - ready to open the valves. Reservoir folks expect 2-3 days to recycle the frac water as it is returned to the surface, then figure 7.5-10k barrels of crude per day from each well for the first 2-2.5 months. They are all on BLM land.

We cannot flare the additional gas, so the site needs a larger compressor to handle the larger gas volumes - - and get the gas into the existing sales pipeline. Already a compressor there - running. Larger compressor is sitting in our equipment yard. EPA says 'no new compressor.' No explanation.

So the wells sit. And this is becoming routine.

I'm guessing the US pump price of gas won't go down anytime soon. I'll let you speculate on why.

[Bill Dufour]

I think it is interesting to see that premium is still exactly 20 cents a gallon more then regular. With gas double or triple in in price you would think the differential would change at least one percent.
Bill D

[Malcolm McLeod]

I think it is interesting to see that premium is still exactly 20 cents a gallon more then regular. With gas double or triple in in price you would think the differential would change at least one percent.
Bill D

I just got back from a quick trip to Santa Barbara, and noted much the same thing. Relative to regular grades, premium looks like quite the bargain in CA!:cool:

I spend a bit of time on the road between Carlsbad NM and N.TX (I-20). This is certainly not a statistically accurate survey, but regular<>premium differential seems to run in the $0.80 to $1.00/gal range. Last tank of premium I bought was $5.79/gal in Sweetwater TX - - and I noted this was about $1.10/gal less than regular in Santa Barbara (2-days apart).

Not to be repetitious, but again, prices are set by the retail station owners, not the O&G companies - - and highly dependent on local competition and taxing authority.

[Lee DeRaud]

I spend a bit of time on the road between Carlsbad NM and N.TX (I-20). This is certainly not a statistically accurate survey, but regular<>premium differential seems to run in the $0.80 to $1.00/gal range. Last tank of premium I bought was $5.79/gal in Sweetwater TX - - and I noted this was about $1.10/gal less than regular in Santa Barbara (2-days apart).
So, $6.89 in SB? Ouch. You should have stopped sooner: we're only about $6.10 or so 150mi south...I suspect Ventura would have been about the same.

[Malcolm McLeod]

So, $6.89 in SB? Ouch. You should have stopped sooner: we're only about $6.10 or so 150mi south...I suspect Ventura would have been about the same.

:D Didn't have to purchase - riding in Uber - so I could just gasp and point.:D

[Edward Weber]

How many have had the pump shut off automatically at $100

[Malcolm McLeod]

How many have had the pump shut off automatically at $100

I believe that is a credit card 'thing' - limits CC company's liability, since fuel charge gets 'pre-authorized'. Or something like that.

[Bruce Page]

I think it is interesting to see that premium is still exactly 20 cents a gallon more then regular. With gas double or triple in in price you would think the differential would change at least one percent.
Bill D

That's not the case at the Costco I buy from. When I filled up on Tuesday Reg was $4.29 and Premium was 70 cents higher at $4.99. I don't remember ever seeing a spread that wide before.

[Kev Williams]

In case anyone likes anecdotes, here's a fresh one...

Just got off a production planning call and we're trying to bring 3 new oil wells into production, with flow to an existing tank battery (where oil/gas/water separation is handled). They are drilled and frac'd - - ready to open the valves. Reservoir folks expect 2-3 days to recycle the frac water as it is returned to the surface, then figure 7.5-10k barrels of crude per day from each well for the first 2-2.5 months. They are all on BLM land.

We cannot flare the additional gas, so the site needs a larger compressor to handle the larger gas volumes - - and get the gas into the existing sales pipeline. Already a compressor there - running. Larger compressor is sitting in our equipment yard. EPA says 'no new compressor.' No explanation.

So the wells sit. And this is becoming routine.

I'm guessing the US pump price of gas won't go down anytime soon. I'll let you speculate on why.

"no new compressor.' No explanation."

-- the EPA just got their wings clipped, could that be part of it?

[Edward Weber]

I believe that is a credit card 'thing' - limits CC company's liability, since fuel charge gets 'pre-authorized'. Or something like that.

My point isn't what causes it but that it's $100 for (less than) a fill up :eek:

I have just read that some are starting to raise the cut off limit they have, gee thanks

[Kev Williams]

--same thing happened when gas prices went thru the roof in '08, pumps shut off at $100, some at $75 and $50- and yes it's a credit card thing, in case you go over your credit limit, each card swipe verifies your limit. It's a pain but if you need more gas, run your card again- at least that's how worked back then.

[Warren Lake]

be thankful you dont have 50 Ferraris to fill like those saudi oil guys.

[Lee DeRaud]

be thankful you dont have 50 Ferraris to fill like those saudi oil guys.
Three words: Jay. Leno's. Garage. :)
Taking that collection out for "exercise" and refills would be a pretty sweet retirement gig.

[Ronald Blue]

be thankful you dont have 50 Ferraris to fill like those saudi oil guys.

I'm guessing that someone fills them for them.

[Ronald Blue]

--same thing happened when gas prices went thru the roof in '08, pumps shut off at $100, some at $75 and $50- and yes it's a credit card thing, in case you go over your credit limit, each card swipe verifies your limit. It's a pain but if you need more gas, run your card again- at least that's how worked back then.

When I was still working from time to time I would encounter a place that shut the diesel pump off at 50 gallons. That was frustrating because then I had to enter the mileage and pin number again and do the process over. Learned which places to avoid after that.

[Malcolm McLeod]

"no new compressor.' No explanation."

-- the EPA just got their wings clipped, could that be part of it?

Permitting is not my responsibility, so can’t recall specifics, but I think this is 3rd time for denial in last ~2 months? This out of maybe 10-12 requests (60-70% approved?), this latest just struck me as fitting the narrative here.

This type permit application should lead the start of flow back by ~1mo, so this submittal predates ‘clipping’ by some weeks. I could wildly speculate about any connections, but I’m sure readers can be equally as wild, or mild, as they see fit.

[Malcolm McLeod]

My point isn't what causes it but that it's $100 for (less than) a fill up :eek:

I have just read that some are starting to raise the cut off limit they have, gee thanks
My mother never uttered 10 curse words in her life, so I still remember her reaction when she pulled up to a gas pump charging $0.50/gal. She used almost her lifetime quota in 1 sentence.

[Warren Lake]

yeah, one of the body guards. Life is different at those levels.

Jays a real car guy, off the map really. Plus he has done tons of wrenching in his life. Learned lots from him, history on many rare and interesting cars. Two friends got to met him and he spent good time with them and he sounds like a joy.

[Brian Elfert]

Diesel pumps at truck stops in 2008 could often only go up to $999.99. Truck stops were rushing to get their pumps reprogrammed to handle a higher amount.

[Edward Weber]

It's about $6.99 a gallon in my local station not sure what it is at the truck stops.

[Dave Fritz]

Ours went down to 4.59. Switzerland is almost 9. Crazy world right now.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Three words: Jay. Leno's. Garage. :)
Taking that collection out for "exercise" and refills would be a pretty sweet retirement gig.

I just found the Briggs and Stratton Hybrid car episode.


https://youtu.be/ftMxCehD08U

[Curt Harms]

Ours went down to 4.59. Switzerland is almost 9. Crazy world right now.

Europe's Petrol prices have always been way higher than the U.S. Mostly because of one tax or another. We're about $4.89, in part because Pennsylvania's gas tax is one of the highest (top 3?) in the country.

[Alan Lightstone]

be thankful you dont have 50 Ferraris to fill like those saudi oil guys.
I drove a Lamborghini once, and you could literally see the gas gauge going down as you drove.

I'm trying to remember the car (maybe a Bugatti) that at top speed the gas tank is empty in 11 minutes. Of course at greater than 250mph, you've gone a significant distance in 11 minutes, but still...

I have a friend who just told me about the $800 fill-up of his RV. OMG!!! :eek:

Which country has the highest prices in the world?

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I used to ride around with local buddys, they had a driving game that started at the Snoddy's store gas pump where every one filled up, followed by a 60 mile loop through 3 small towns, then back to the pump and another fill up. He who burned the most gas won. The looser picked up the tab for "refreshments" Our kids were not enamored with cars, I am glad.

[Thomas Wilson]

Gas at marinas is always significantly higher than at gas stations. Marine gas is different from highway gas. It is typically 91 octane with no ethanol. The locations are hard to get a tanker truck into. The result this year is that we are paying $7.25/gal versus $5.29/gal locally for premium at the gas station. Not unreasonable when you think about it. My usage is around 6 gal/hr. We have cut the hours back a good bit. I suppose that is the idea.

[Robert Engel]

It's fine talking about it, but it's hurting a lot of people.

If electric is what the future holds, this is not the way to get there!

[Frank Pratt]

$121.00 to fill my Honda the other day :(

[Jim Becker]

$4.75 at Costco on Sunday...down about a quarter since last visit.

[Malcolm McLeod]

"no new compressor.' ... could that be part of it?

Just passed the Facilities Engineer in the hall - - they wanted to pull the existing 20hp compressor and drop in a 60hp. All electric. Still, "No".

This keeps 475,000 gallons of gasoline per day (~refined / not counting additional diesel/Jet-A) in the ground; waiting for other wells at this site to tail off. ...Guessing retail prices are not coming down soon.

[Kev Williams]

I drove a Lamborghini once, and you could literally see the gas gauge going down as you drove.

I'm trying to remember the car (maybe a Bugatti) that at top speed the gas tank is empty in 11 minutes. Of course at greater than 250mph, you've gone a significant distance in 11 minutes, but still...

I have a friend who just told me about the $800 fill-up of his RV. OMG!!! :eek:

Which country has the highest prices in the world?
If I had to fill our houseboat today at the $5.29 price I see, with all tanks empty (and essentially they are), it would run me $1455...

[Doug Garson]

This is my understanding of the situation. I just looked it up, and in Feb 2022, 61% of the price of a gallon of gas in the US was the cost of crude oil which is based on world prices. World prices for crude oil are based on worldwide supply vs demand. The oil companies cost to get that barrel of oil out of the ground doesn't matter, their cost could go down and they would still get a price increase because they charge world pricing. The local supply vs demand doesn't matter, world price sets the price of that barrel of crude oil. Unless the US could flood the world market with crude oil, or convince OPEC to increase supply which they probably can but don't because the higher prices benefit them, it can't impact the world price of crude oil. Seems to me getting off oil is the answer. There is no world price for electricity generated by renewables, it is set by your local utility and local taxes. Your local utility producing electricity from non fossil fuels isn't impacted by anything beyond your local or perhaps national forces. Obviously we can't just wake up tomorrow and eliminate this situation but the direction we need to go is obvious. The only other way I can see is to nationalize the oil and gas companies so they aren't tied to world prices.
I'm by no means an expert so I don't know how this could be accomplished but it seems to me the way to go. Just imagine if tomorrow there was a catastrophic event in Saudi Arabia that wiped out their oil production (around 13% of world production), your cost at the pumps would go up again even if the US was self sufficient and didn't have to import one barrel of oil because the oil companies would charge world prices.

[Ron Citerone]

This is my understanding of the situation. I just looked it up, and in Feb 2022, 61% of the price of a gallon of gas in the US was the cost of crude oil which is based on world prices. World prices for crude oil are based on worldwide supply vs demand. The oil companies cost to get that barrel of oil out of the ground doesn't matter, their cost could go down and they would still get a price increase because they charge world pricing. The local supply vs demand doesn't matter, world price sets the price of that barrel of crude oil. Unless the US could flood the world market with crude oil, or convince OPEC to increase supply which they probably can but don't because the higher prices benefit them, it can't impact the world price of crude oil. Seems to me getting off oil is the answer. There is no world price for electricity generated by renewables, it is set by your local utility and local taxes. Your local utility producing electricity from non fossil fuels isn't impacted by anything beyond your local or perhaps national forces. Obviously we can't just wake up tomorrow and eliminate this situation but the direction we need to go is obvious. The only other way I can see is to nationalize the oil and gas companies so they aren't tied to world prices.
I'm by no means an expert so I don't know how this could be accomplished but it seems to me the way to go. Just imagine if tomorrow there was a catastrophic event in Saudi Arabia that wiped out their oil production (around 13% of world production), your cost at the pumps would go up again even if the US was self sufficient and didn't have to import one barrel of oil because the oil companies would charge world prices.

Doug, very good post. I am not thinking nationalizing the oil companies is practical or possible. I do think you are on to something with getting less dependent on oil. Seems to me many people see it as all fossil fuel or all alternate sources. If we had a better mix we would not be at the mercy of dictators sitting on oil wells. This roller coaster has been going on since 1974. Time to pursue every option as part of a long term plan. My 2 cents

[Dave Zellers]

Doug, very good post. I am not thinking nationalizing the oil companies is practical or possible. I do think you are on to something with getting less dependent on oil. Seems to me many people see it as all fossil fuel or all alternate sources. If we had a better mix we would not be at the mercy of dictators sitting on oil wells. This roller coaster has been going on since 1974. Time to pursue every option as part of a long term plan. My 2 cents

Wait. So your proposal is to NOT throw the baby out with the bath water and instead employ a rational well thought out transition away from total dependence on oil?????

What kind of nut-jobbery is this?????

Are you one of them whackos?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Oh man, if only we could.

When did logic and reason become the enemy?

[Warren Lake]

the quest for gas stuff is not for efficiency, its for 700 or 1000 HP and huge torque. other than the track there is no where to use it. Would it not make more sense for the competition to be gas mileage instead of insane performance no past muscle cars could do.

[Malcolm McLeod]

…to nationalize the oil and gas companies
...
Clearly a political manifesto.

Guessing of course, but betting EV thread got POOF’d due to my economic fact checking. Financial statements::clearly partisan.

Let’s see which way ‘the crowd’ leans on this one.:confused::eek::D I got money on POOF.

[Doug Garson]

Somehow you need to seperate the price of energy from factors beyond your control. Consider it economics.

[Brian Deakin]

Cost of petrol in United kingdom today

$8.80 per US gallon regular petrol station

Local Costco price $8.19 per US gallon

[Jason Roehl]

the quest for gas stuff is not for efficiency, its for 700 or 1000 HP and huge torque. other than the track there is no where to use it. Would it not make more sense for the competition to be gas mileage instead of insane performance no past muscle cars could do.

Power and efficiency are not necessarily mutually exclusive. The thermal efficiency of a vehicle might be 35% or so. Bump that to 40%, and you’ve increased efficiency, but you’ve also made more energy available for motion.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Somehow you need to seperate the price of energy from factors beyond your control. Consider it economics.

Remove "energy"; and substitute:
Corn
Wheat
Drugs (pharma, not weed)
Soybeans
Beef
Chicken
Websites
Ok, weed
Cotton
Milo
Pork
Lightbulbs
Gastric Bypass Surgery
Lawncare
Pool cleaning
Gummie Bears
Other stuff

Your economic model has a name. Good luck.

[Stan Calow]

Wind supplies 42% of the electricity in Kansas. Thats not puffery or politics.

The number of operating oil rigs before 2020 was around 950. That dropped to 250 in 2020 as demand plummeted and global oil prices went negative. Oil companies, in the honorable business of making money, not serving the needs of the public, made the perfectly normal business decision to lay off workers, shut down exploration, and stop buying equipment. Support industries like pipe manufacturers and fracking sand mines followed suit. Those Canadian tar sands aren't profitable at -$40 a barrel. So when demand jumped back up in a heartbeat in 2021, guess what? Not enough workers or supplies. Now the number of operating rigs is climbing back up, but the lag to meet demand (just like the airlines) is killing us. And the international oil companies kind of like getting $100/barrel again. All the posturing and social media outrage wont change that.

Whether there's plenty of oil in the ground or not, is irrelevant to the price at the pump. Any of us who lived through the energy crisis of the '70s should know not to depend on oil being cheap forever.

Just my opinion, and no, I am too lazy to look up references to numbers.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Wind supplies 42% of the electricity in Kansas. ....
I've lived in Amarillo twice, sitting in Midland now - - and in Amarillo I could wave at neighbors in KS;) - - so a passing familiarity with high plains wind conditions and I'm guessing this percentage drops when wind speed is less than 9mph. "Calm" may be rare, but it does happen, and it requires either a backup or absence of service. What does KS do? (TX fires up a gas generator.)


The number of operating oil rigs before 2020 was around 950. That dropped to 250 in 2020 as demand plummeted and global oil prices went negative. Oil companies, in the honorable business of making money, not serving the needs of the public, made the perfectly normal business decision to lay off workers, shut down exploration, and stop buying equipment. Support industries like pipe manufacturers and fracking sand mines followed suit. Those Canadian tar sands aren't profitable at -$40 a barrel. So when demand jumped back up in a heartbeat in 2021, guess what? Not enough workers or supplies. Now the number of operating rigs is climbing back up, but the lag to meet demand (just like the airlines) is killing us. And the international oil companies kind of like getting $100/barrel again. All the posturing and social media outrage wont change that. ...

^Accurate and succinct. I'll only add that EV builders love $100/bbl too. (banned) has publicly gushed over $8/gal (@pump >> $170/bbl, give or take). (banned) has reportedly exercised $1.5M in options in EV stock - due to $100/bbl; guessing (banned) love it too. I bet they all REALLY love $120/bbl?

I'm in a building with ~800 young smart energetic people, flogging another 4000-8000 service contractors (fluctuates daily), all trying diligently to get production up (= the price down!!) - with strenuous encouragement from management. Believe it. Or not.

FWIW, I'd like to see oil at $70-$75/bbl - high enough to warrant investment; low enough to minimize drag on the world economy.

[Doug Garson]

I've lived in Amarillo twice, sitting in Midland now - - and in Amarillo I could wave at neighbors in KS;) - - so a passing familiarity with high plains wind conditions and I'm guessing this percentage drops when wind speed is less than 9mph. "Calm" may be rare, but it does happen, and it requires either a backup or absence of service. What does KS do? (TX fires up a gas generator.)



^Accurate and succinct. I'll only add that EV builders love $100/bbl too. (banned) has publicly gushed over $8/gal (@pump >> $170/bbl, give or take). (banned) has reportedly exercised $1.5M in options in EV stock - due to $100/bbl; guessing (banned) love it too. I bet they all REALLY love $120/bbl?

I'm in a building with ~800 young smart energetic people, flogging another 4000-8000 service contractors (fluctuates daily), all trying diligently to get production up (= the price down!!) - with strenuous encouragement from management. Believe it. Or not.

FWIW, I'd like to see oil at $70-$75/bbl - high enough to warrant investment; low enough to minimize drag on the world economy.
So if your company doubled its production, what impact would that have on the world supply of oil and thus the price of a barrel of crude? If it had any impact OPEC could, and likely would, cut production to maintain the price.

[Malcolm McLeod]

So if your company doubled its production, what impact would that have on the world supply of oil and thus the price of a barrel of crude? If it had any impact OPEC could, and likely would, cut production to maintain the price.

You are exactly correct, but only to a point .... although I have never had cause to travel to an OPEC member state, my trusted partners in crime have, and they tell me that humans live in these countries. Granted, I may have been misled, but I have so far been led to believe that ALL humans share a basic requirement involving nourishment. So OPEC may very well cut production - - until they need to eat.

I think this applies to Pool Cleaning Economics too?:D

****************
ETA - Here's a thought: Energy Independence. OPEC is now irrelevant.
ETAA - Just checked: Our production in the Permian basin is only up 70% since 2019 (sadly not double).

[Doug Garson]

Your economic model has a name. Good luck.
What name do you give to the current economic model for oil prices? It's not free market capitalism when the price is controlled by a cartel. The real solution is to reduce dependence on world oil which also coincidently, has serious environmental issues.

[Malcolm McLeod]

What name do you give to the current economic model for oil prices? It's not free market capitalism when the price is controlled by a cartel. The real solution is to reduce dependence on world oil which also coincidently, has serious environmental issues.

Unpacking (don't want to miss anything;)):
I call it capitalism, and I'll grant you that the professors who taught me this may have been delusional. But their intellectual prowess notwithstanding, the name seems to fit. YMMV, as perhaps our professors did. Works for Lawncare Economics too.

The price is not controlled by a cartel, but certainly influenced by them. So perhaps reduce their influence. Lots of ways to do that.

Reduced dependence on world oil is a worthy effort, but remains to be seen if its a solution. Where will your "The North Face" jacket come from? See "Energy Independence" above. See also efforts at solar, wind, nuclear (fission+fusion), H2, NAS, Iron-Air, etc, etc.

If we avoid the serious environmental issues and kill 3,000,000,000 humans is that a good trade? 1,000,000 humans? 10 humans? Where is your tipping point? (My personal goal is 0!)

[Doug Garson]

Not sure how the efforts to fight climate change is killing anyone. Here's a study that links climate change to deaths. "The extraordinarily hot and cold temperatures that are becoming more common as climate change accelerates are responsible for 5 million deaths globally every year."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-07/climate-change-linked-to-5-million-deaths-a-year-new-study-shows

[Doug Garson]

Here's a quote from the North Face website "We’ve set an ambitious goal to ensure all products we make are made with recycled, regenerative, or responsibly-sourced renewable fabrics—which are fabrics derived from materials that will replenish over the course of a lifetime. We’re on track to hit our goal with all our apparel in 2025, and all footwear and equipment by 2030."
https://www.thenorthface.com/en_ca/sustainability.html

[Malcolm McLeod]

Here's a quote from the North Face website "We’ve set an ambitious goal to ensure all products we make are made with recycled, regenerative, or responsibly-sourced renewable fabrics—which are fabrics derived from materials that will replenish over the course of a lifetime. We’re on track to hit our goal with all our apparel in 2025, and all footwear and equipment by 2030."
https://www.thenorthface.com/en_ca/sustainability.html


A month or 3 ago, a O&G service company in the area ordered 400 jackets for employee thank-you gifts from TNF; the apparel maker refused it, "wrong messaging." (Certainly within their right!!)

The head guy at the service company wrote them an open letter - its available on line for those that wish. Gist of the letter: 100% of the subject jackets are made with O&G derivatives - the shell, lining, insulation, zippers, snaps, thread, and even the logo. It has ZERO natural content. ...Just really good messaging!

Some interpretations:
recycled: maybe 8-10% of content, before their elite 'high-performance' fabrics degrade.
responsibly-sourced: they bought it from Exxon or Chevron, not ARAMCO.
renewable: basically a lie in this case. No cotton, wool, bamboo, hemp, or linen. Not even algae.
replenish: they'll need more polymer feed-stock.

(I spent a few early years in plastics processing biz; current co. has quite a chemicals/polymer footprint.)

*************

A man from NY accosted me standing at a bar in Jamaica ...when he saw a company logo on my sunglasses, "You are going to have to do something about that frac'ing $#!%!"

I looked at him and realized from his physique that he didn't row a boat there, and the sunburn said 'non-sailor', if you know what I mean. I'll let you decide how he got to an island; I didn't ask. As I scanned up, he was wearing Crocs (EVA), swimsuit (rayon probably, but 'poly' for sure), swimshirt (polyester), sunglasses (polycarbonate), and a gimme hat (nylon, mostly).

Me, "My drinks are ready, but you have a really nice trip!"

**************

How do you spell hypocrisy?

[Malcolm McLeod]

... how the efforts to fight climate change is killing anyone.

5 Million? Wonder how many died of 'weather' - - pre-climate change, of course.

A couple of decades ago, a group of 'pure' scientists released a paper describing the dire future and doom humans faced in the next several years due to CO2. As 'applied' scientists, ASME realized that engineers would be key to actually teaching and implementing this new science. So, they commissioned a group of senior engineers and professors to do a peer-reviewed study of how humans could execute this. They invited other engineering disciplines to participate, with equally rigorous peer-review requirements. They published their findings in the ASME magazine. I read it, then tossed it, regrettably. Had I a crystal ball, I'd have tattooed it on my forehead.

I cannot find a copy online for love nor money. The web has swallowed it whole. Perhaps someone else can find a hard-copy in a library somewhere..?

This group looked at everything under the sun, tried to balance one thing against another (as that supply drops, production of this increases), and even assumed the application of some very interesting human ingenuity. They looked at power curtailment, renewables, nuclear, biomass, lack of lighting, factory productivity and mods (LOTS of skylights), transportation bottlenecks and increase spoilage, farming - fertilizer, planting/harvesting/storage inefficiencies, even some farming reverting to draft animals and the resulting conversion of human crops to animal silage. And of course, government intervention. I have touched - gently - on perhaps 10-15% of the article's content.

Their conclusion -- with a world population of 5,000,000,000 or so at the time -- 1/3 to 1/2 of the human population would die of starvation, war, or disease. We're at 7,000,000,000 now - give or take a billion here and there.

Find it. Read it. Refute it. I welcome the sanity check.

Clearly, the dire loss of life has NOT come to pass - - largely because the original timeline has - so far - been ignored, in my opinion.

******
I posted much the same thing in a thread long ago POOF'd. Maybe this will reach a reader or 2.

[Doug Garson]

Malcome, I'm confused. You said in an earlier post "If we avoid the serious environmental issues and kill 3,000,000,000 humans is that a good trade? 1,000,000 humans? 10 humans? Where is your tipping point? (My personal goal is 0!)" Then when I link a study that claims climate change causes 5 million heat related deaths per year, your response is
5 Million? Wonder how many died of 'weather' - - pre-climate change, of course. Are you disputing the study? Are you aware of a study that claims fighting climate change is or will be the cause of any deaths?
I recall the ASME study but don't recall all its conclusions and can't find it either. I do recall one point that was made and that was that fighting climate change was a challenge for the engineering profession and that the engineering profession had successfully met previous challenges like the one involving the hole in the ozone layer. This is obviously a bigger challenge and one the world cannot meet without engineering input. I also recall the study suggested we as engineers should look at this as an opportunity, and that while some sectors may shrink as we transition away from fossil fuels there are many opportunities for other sectors to grow. I suspect energy companies that aren't part of the transition away from fossil fuels will decline in the next few decades.
Before I retired most of my work as an engineer was in thermal power generation mainly in the pulp and paper industry (biomass and black liquor recovery boilers) but also in utility power generation including oil, gas and coal fired power plants, waste to energy boilers, gas fired combined and simple cycle power plants and coal fired power plant ash handling. Long before I retired I saw the writing on the wall that it was a sunset industry. Looking at one of my former employer's website, they are getting into things like CO2 scrubbing, solar and energy storage, here's a quote from their website "The long-lasting effects of global climate change are considered detrimental to our world’s ecosystem, which is why B&W is dedicated to providing clean power production technologies to support the energy transformation and our future."

[Doug Garson]

Not the ASME study Malcome referred to but came across this one while looking. Worth a read in my opinion. Here's a quote from it "Climate solutions are coming fast because customers demand it, investors demand it, and employees demand it. The pathway is clear and baked in. Companies that ignore these pressures do so at their peril. The only question now is which companies—and which countries—will lead. The United States can still lead. Texas, a state whose identity is tightly bound to the petroleum industry, could still lead. The countries and companies that move the fastest and smartest will make a lot of money. The deniers and laggards will lose. As an American and a Texan, I hope we don’t side with the laggards."
https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/content/climate-of-optimism

[Malcolm McLeod]

Malcome, I'm confused. ...
No problem... 'Malcolm' has 2 M's, 2 'L's', and no E's. It's right there at the top of all my posts.;)


Are you disputing the study?
Not at all. Let's assume Bloomberg and Ms. Lombrana are totally unbiased. Let's assume the researchers (Guo, et.al.) are totally unbiased. Let's take the news report at it's oh-so-clickable-headline and story's face value: 5 million people die annually due to climate-change-related extreme weather. ...The majority of which have recently been due to 'cold'.

There is zero reference to any pre-industrial, pre-climate-change extreme weather deaths. Were there no deaths in this era? Were the no extreme weather events in this era? I think we all know the answer to this. So, as heinous as it may be to call this era's human deaths "base-line", I'd think the researchers should have included this base-line data. Maybe Ms. Lombrana or her editor should have pushed for a more complete story. And just maybe some of that 5M is base-line. YMMV


Are you aware of a study that claims fighting climate change is or will be the cause of any deaths?
I recall the ASME study but don't recall all its conclusions and can't find it either.
First, thank you for at least validating the ASME study's existence. I DO recall it's conclusions, as I was shocked at the potential for my professional participation in this 'fix'. And so the emphatic answer is, "Yes! I am aware of a study that claims fighting climate change is or will be the cause of any deaths."

If we assume a 2- or 3-ish decade old human population of 5B, and the ASME study was right (within the UCS's timeline), but at the 'low end' (1/3), then we loose 1.65B human lives.

But let's assume that our decades-old ASME with their chosen minions were really dumb, or my memory is really bad, and the original ASME study was wrong by a massive and incompetent 50% (:: only 1/6 of the population lost). That is a mere 825M human lives. That's equal to 165 years of Prof. Guo's estimated losses - - just for comparison.

In your professional career, I'm guessing you are quite familiar with the process hazards that exist at the extreme ends of a control curve. In the case of climate change, doing nothing is one end. Doing too much, too fast is the other. I try to stay in the middle and I am notorious with my peers for always asking, 'How can this go wrong?' My (in)actions may cost lives, but not all of them. I trust you can say the same.

My company now has an entire business division dedicated to commercialization of carbon capture and sequestration. Another group sits down the hall from me, actively looking for methane leaks within our BU - down to fugitive emissions from compressor shaft packing - using tech* that would amaze you. As mentioned elsewhere, elimination of routine flaring is a focus, and about 5years ahead of company plan for our BU. (We do still have some emergency flaring, but it is simply to prevent catastrophic failure.)

It took humans way more than 100 years to get 'here' CO2-wise. Common sense says we won't get back in 10.

...Stick figure pounding of keys thus endeth. Enjoy.

*- They can literally see you fart on our tank battery sites.:eek::o:D

[Doug Garson]

No problem... 'Malcolm' has 2 M's, 2 'L's', and no E's. It's right there at the top of all my posts.;)


Not at all. Let's assume Bloomberg and Ms. Lombrana are totally unbiased. Let's assume the researchers (Guo, et.al.) are totally unbiased. Let's take the news report at it's oh-so-clickable-headline and story's face value: 5 million people die annually due to climate-change-related extreme weather. ...The majority of which have recently been due to 'cold'.

There is zero reference to any pre-industrial, pre-climate-change extreme weather deaths. Were there no deaths in this era? Were the no extreme weather events in this era? I think we all know the answer to this. So, as heinous as it may be to call this era's human deaths "base-line", I'd think the researchers should have included this base-line data. Maybe Ms. Lombrana or her editor should have pushed for a more complete story. And just maybe some of that 5M is base-line. YMMV


First, thank you for at least validating the ASME study's existence. I DO recall it's conclusions, as I was shocked at the potential for my professional participation in this 'fix'. And so the emphatic answer is, "Yes! I am aware of a study that claims fighting climate change is or will be the cause of any deaths."

If we assume a 2- or 3-ish decade old human population of 5B, and the ASME study was right (within the UCS's timeline), but at the 'low end' (1/3), then we loose 1.65B human lives.

But let's assume that our decades-old ASME with their chosen minions were really dumb, or my memory is really bad, and the original ASME study was wrong by a massive and incompetent 50% (:: only 1/6 of the population lost). That ls a mere 825M human lives. That's equal to 165 years of Prof. Guo's estimated losses - - just for comparison.

In your professional career, I'm guessing you a quite familiar with the process hazards that exist at the extreme ends of a control curve. In the case of climate change, doing nothing is one end. Doing too much, too fast is the other. I try to stay in the middle and I am notorious with my peers for always asking, 'How can this go wrong?' My (in)actions may cost lives, but not all of them. I trust you can say the same.

My company now has an entire business division dedicated to commercialization of carbon capture and sequestration. Another group sits down the hall from me, actively looking for methane leaks within our BU - down to fugitive emissions from compressor shaft packing - using tech that would amaze you. As mentioned elsewhere, elimination of routine flaring is a focus, and about 5years ahead of company plan for our BU. (We do still have some emergency flaring, but it is simply to prevent catastrophic failure.)

It took humans way more than 100 years to get 'here' CO2-wise. Common sense says we won't get back in 10.

...Stick figure pounding of keys thus endeth. Enjoy.

First I apologise for misspelling your name, I guess that addition of an e to my last name several posts back was a subtle poke that I missed. My bad.
Second if you find the Bloomberg study biased how about the World Health Organization, New York Times, National Geographic, CDC etc all have published studies or articles on the subject. When I Google "how does fighting climate change cause deaths" I get lot's of returns on how climate change causes death, none claiming fighting it does. Perhaps the Google algorithm is finding results based on my past searches so I did an anonymous search using Bing and got many of the same returns and none suggesting fighting climate change causes deaths. Perhaps you can do a search and post a link to an article that claims fighting climate change causes deaths.

I don't recall the ASME study saying that fighting climate change would cause any deaths, and I don't understand the statement "If we assume a 2- or 3-ish decade old human population of 5B, and the ASME study was right [about what?](within the UCS's timeline), but at the 'low end' (1/3), then we loose 1.65B human lives." What would the cause of death from fighting climate change be?

Sounds like your company is doing what the ASME article I linked to says is what needs to be done so I don't understand why you seem to want to push back on the need to fight climate change.

[Kev Williams]

https://daily.jstor.org/how-19th-century-scientists-predicted-global-warming/ <<< y'all should read this, just for kicks, this 'climate change' thing ain't new- ;)

[Malcolm McLeod]

Second if you find the Bloomberg study biased ...
I quite specifically said "totally unbiased". Maybe just incomplete? Please decide for yourself.


Perhaps you can do a search and post a link to an article that claims fighting climate change causes deaths.
....
This is just from the top of the list on quick search (https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/nitrogen-fertilizer-shortage-threatens-cut-global-crop-yields-cf-industries-2021-11-04/). Note, "which warned rising fertilizer costs would drive up food prices and could lead to famine." This linked situation clearly is driven by short term n.gas production shortfalls, but please ask yourself how abruptly killing O&G as part of the 'fight' will result in a different outcome. And again, our relative perspectives may be vastly different - but for me, that word "famine" means people are likely to die.

Emphasis on quick; no fact checks; no look at author's other work; no source bias reviews. Easy to find if you look.


...and the ASME study was right [about what?]
Please review post #138, that covers "about what".


...so I don't understand why you seem to want to push back on the need to fight climate change.
I have never disputed the need, merely the popular and quite grotesque over-simplification of the solution. I don't understand your apparent participation in the latter. (Plenty of misunderstanding. Enough to supply everyone.)

Please carry on. I am sure the Mods are having kittens and poised over the POOF! button, so I am done here. PM me if you feel it warranted.

[Mel Fulks]

USA just sold lots of oil from our strategic-stash to China. Not getting a lot of press , could be it’s part of a deal to get our frozen Chinese food into new territory.

[Stan Calow]

The CEO of EXXON-Mobil said recently that he expects almost all passenger vehicles to be EV by 2040. He also said that the oil & gas industry will still be in business, producing as much as they were in 2013-2014 and be just as profitable due to the continued demand for all the other products (fertilizer, plastics, etc.) that will be needed.

[Doug Garson]

I quite specifically said "totally unbiased". Maybe just incomplete? Please decide for yourself.


This is just from the top of the list on quick search (https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/nitrogen-fertilizer-shortage-threatens-cut-global-crop-yields-cf-industries-2021-11-04/). Note, "which warned rising fertilizer costs would drive up food prices and could lead to famine." This linked situation clearly is driven by short term n.gas production shortfalls, but please ask yourself how abruptly killing O&G as part of the 'fight' will result in a different outcome. And again, our relative perspectives may be vastly different - but for me, that word "famine" means people are likely to die.

Emphasis on quick; no fact checks; no look at author's other work; no source bias reviews. Easy to find if you look.


Please review post #138, that covers "about what".


I have never disputed the need, merely the popular and quite grotesque over-simplification of the solution. I don't understand your apparent participation in the latter. (Plenty of misunderstanding. Enough to supply everyone.)

Please carry on. I am sure the Mods are having kittens and poised over the POOF! button, so I am done here. PM me if you feel it warranted.

I think we are making progress and we're not as far apart as some may perceive from some of our posts. I assumed (my bad) that you were being sarcastic when you said unbiased I agree that the article may be incomplete but what article isn't? It's a very complicated subject and one article can't cover all aspects of the topic. The article you posted authored by a company that makes fertilizer from fossil fuels (unbiased?) predicts rising food costs if natural gas prices rise due to increased demand as the world comes out of a pandemic (nothing to do with the climate change fight) without considering the impact of droughts and extreme heat on food production caused by climate change. Interesting that one of the causes they state for reduced production of ammonia was a hurricane that took out one of their plants. According to NASA climate change may not increase frequency of hurricanes (might actually reduce them) but "the ones that form have a greater chance of becoming stronger."
I totally agree we cannot abruptly kill oil and gas usage, I have said several times that we can't go cold turkey. I don't understand why you would think I participate in or agree with " the popular and quite grotesque over-simplification of the solution." I do not.
As for post #138, you recall (but I don't) that they predicted massive deaths from starvation war or disease as a result of fighting climate change. Hard to debate that conclusion if we can't find the article. The only way I can think of is if we mismanage the fight by, for example, going cold turkey. Do you recall (as I do) that they considered fighting climate change as a great opportunity as described in the ASME article from 2022?

Don't know why you are concerned that the mods are having kittens over this discussion, I think we are both being respectful and polite in this discussion.

[Ronald Blue]

Don't know why you are concerned that the mods are having kittens over this discussion, I think we are both being respectful and polite in this discussion.[/QUOTE]

It was thought by some of the other thread was staying civil (myself included), but I didn't see what might have been posted in the 24-48 hour period leading up to it getting nuked. So it might have degraded dramatically from where it had been.

[Doug Garson]

It was thought by some of the other thread was staying civil (myself included), but I didn't see what might have been posted in the 24-48 hour period leading up to it getting nuked. So it might have degraded dramatically from where it had been.
Ron can you edit your post to move your content outside the quote of my content? My experience here in BC does not match yours in Illinois. "VANCOUVER: Starting April 1, electricity bills for BC Hydro customers will be reduced by an average of 1.4 per cent, following interim approval by the BC Utilities Commission.The rate decrease is part of a three-year rate application that, if approved, marks a period of the lowest rate increases in B.C. over the past 15 years."
No doubt there will be rate increases during the transition away from coal but I suspect eventually the rates will be lower. According to Bloomberg "It's now cheaper to build and operate new large-scale wind or solar plants in nearly half the world than it would be to run an existing coal or gas-fired power plant."

Yeah I have no idea why the other thread was closed

[Ronald Blue]

That remains to be seen. With no current incentives the market has stalled for new wind turbines. In fact Siemens Gamesa which has a blade plant near me is laying off most of the work force due to the lack of new orders. They aren't the only supplier of course but I'm sure other suppliers are feeling a similar pinch. I don't know if the solar industry is in a similar place or not. I'm not sure if the intent is to force electric rates so high that "clean energy" will stand on it's own without subsidies or not.

[Doug Garson]

That remains to be seen. With no current incentives the market has stalled for new wind turbines. In fact Siemens Gamesa which has a blade plant near me is laying off most of the work force due to the lack of new orders. They aren't the only supplier of course but I'm sure other suppliers are feeling a similar pinch. I don't know if the solar industry is in a similar place or not. I'm not sure if the intent is to force electric rates so high that "clean energy" will stand on it's own without subsidies or not.

According to a company press release "Siemens Gamesa said it faced a patent challenge against features of its onshore wind turbines in 2021 brought by a competitor. “While the International Trade Commission ultimately ruled in favor of Siemens Gamesa, the company was unable to pursue orders during that period. Since then, the U.S. wind market for onshore has slowed in anticipation of new climate legislation and the accompanying renewable energy incentives. Combined with long lead times on wind energy projects, these factors have resulted in a “production gap” in 2022,”

[Ronald Blue]

[QUOTE=Doug Garson;3202776]"VANCOUVER: Starting April 1, electricity bills for BC Hydro customers will be reduced by an average of 1.4 per cent, following interim approval by the BC Utilities Commission.The rate decrease is part of a three-year rate application that, if approved, marks a period of the lowest rate increases in B.C. over the past 15 years."

No doubt there will be rate increases during the transition away from coal but I suspect eventually the rates will be lower. According to Bloomberg "It's now cheaper to build and operate new large-scale wind or solar plants in nearly half the world than it would be to run an existing coal or gas-fired power plant."

After looking at how Canada get's it's electric power it seems like an apples to oranges comparison. By a large margin your power is sourced from hydro electric. I don't know the specifics of them but am I correct to assume that there are more "hydro electric" friendly locations there? I happen to live 15 miles from a large hydro electric facility on the Mississippi River. It was originally built with the idea of having double the capacity 100 years ago but the water flow just isn't there.
Only a small part of your power comes from wind. By my calculations about 5%. Regardless of what Bloomberg might say if wind or solar are really cheaper to build and operate than a fossil fuel plant they wouldn't need incentives to encourage investment. With all the EPA regulations here it would seem that we'd be that magical place that would be true. Our rates will only continue to climb unfortunately.

[Ronald Blue]

According to a company press release "Siemens Gamesa said it faced a patent challenge against features of its onshore wind turbines in 2021 brought by a competitor. “While the International Trade Commission ultimately ruled in favor of Siemens Gamesa, the company was unable to pursue orders during that period. Since then, the U.S. wind market for onshore has slowed in anticipation of new climate legislation and the accompanying renewable energy incentives. Combined with long lead times on wind energy projects, these factors have resulted in a “production gap” in 2022,”

While that's part of the reason the orders aren't there because the wind turbine market is stalled. You don't snap one's fingers and produce blades and IF there were orders coming they would begin production even if at a low rate. The laid off employees were told to not expect recall to their jobs. Seems pretty certain to me that there is a big slow down and it's more than waiting for the ITC to make a ruling.

[Doug Garson]

[QUOTE=Doug Garson;3202776]"VANCOUVER: Starting April 1, electricity bills for BC Hydro customers will be reduced by an average of 1.4 per cent, following interim approval by the BC Utilities Commission.The rate decrease is part of a three-year rate application that, if approved, marks a period of the lowest rate increases in B.C. over the past 15 years."

No doubt there will be rate increases during the transition away from coal but I suspect eventually the rates will be lower. According to Bloomberg "It's now cheaper to build and operate new large-scale wind or solar plants in nearly half the world than it would be to run an existing coal or gas-fired power plant."

After looking at how Canada get's it's electric power it seems like an apples to oranges comparison. By a large margin your power is sourced from hydro electric. I don't know the specifics of them but am I correct to assume that there are more "hydro electric" friendly locations there? I happen to live 15 miles from a large hydro electric facility on the Mississippi River. It was originally built with the idea of having double the capacity 100 years ago but the water flow just isn't there.
Only a small part of your power comes from wind. By my calculations about 5%. Regardless of what Bloomberg might say if wind or solar are really cheaper to build and operate than a fossil fuel plant they wouldn't need incentives to encourage investment. With all the EPA regulations here it would seem that we'd be that magical place that would be true. Our rates will only continue to climb unfortunately.

Yes we get a lot of our power from hydro especially here in BC, and also in Manitoba, Ontario and Newfoundland, Yukon and Quebec. We are the fourth largest producer of hydro after the US, Brazil and China, of course we have about 1/10 the population of the US, 1/5 the population of Brazil and about the same population as the biggest city in China:eek: so I suspect we have the highest per capita capacity in the world.
Don't know if the Bloomberg calculation included incentives and it seems they have put up a paywall so I can't go back and look.

[Curt Harms]

Wait. So your proposal is to NOT throw the baby out with the bath water and instead employ a rational well thought out transition away from total dependence on oil?????

What kind of nut-jobbery is this?????

Are you one of them whackos?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Oh man, if only we could.

When did logic and reason become the enemy?

When it threatens the $$$$ of those setting the agenda. Saying more would violate the TOS about discussing politics.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Our gas is around $3.79. Missouri has the lowest state gas tax and people are astounded that the roads and bridges are so bad. I am surprised CA has different prices cash v credit.

27 cents lower than the national average in MO. Prices have not hit $5 yet for me, but its getting close. We also have guys in big diesel rigs who "Roll Coal" the target is Joggers, Cyclists, Rice Burners, Hybrids, and E.Vs. Our 2010 Prius is new to us and it gets fogged often. It is annoying. Cyclists are the preferred target. I don't ride on the roads unless it is unavoidable.

[Kev Williams]

Cost difference of gas across the country, really a thorn for me-


There's umpteen refineries within 15 miles of where I'm sitting,
they get most of their oil by truck from a couple hundred miles away,
and to top it off, because we're at 4400', our regular grade is only 85 octane...!

Cheap transportation of oil in every way, and the lowest quality gas possible,
is somehow worth a 40 cent per gallon upcharge...

oy
Just heard an 'aside' on the news this morning, 'gas prices have dropped around 25c per gallon in the past week'....

Here in the SLC area, and I'm pretty sure the refineries are up and running, prices are $5.29, which is as high as I've >>ever<< seen. Umm...482433
I know I'm just 482434but it's pure482430in my opinion...

[Lee DeRaud]

Just heard an 'aside' on the news this morning, 'gas prices have dropped around 25c per gallon in the past week'....
National average had dropped 21 days in a row as of yesterday.

[Ronald Blue]

National average had dropped 21 days in a row as of yesterday.

That's what happens when demand drops. I've not changed my habits other than sometimes set the cruise near the speed limit. Sometimes....but not always. It's hurting some people a lot. Generally the ones that can least afford it. This is also peak driving season so that means if it were not vacation time the demand would be even lower.

[Doug Garson]

My understanding is the majority of the cost of gasoline is the cost of crude oil so the drop in demand is more likely worldwide drop in demand for crude not local (US) drop in demand for gas.

[Ronald Blue]

My understanding is the majority of the cost of gasoline is the cost of crude oil so the drop in demand is more likely worldwide drop in demand for crude not local (US) drop in demand for gas.

Since the US is the single largest consumer it stands to reason that with lowered demand here the effect will be lower crude and gasoline prices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_consumption

[Malcolm McLeod]

... with lowered demand ...

There is a supply side to this as well. Our BU has set 3 (domestic) production records in the last 5 months ... in spite of, uhhhm ... obstacles.:cool::eek::cool: