Flat tires on a re-saw band saw?

[Mark Gibney]

I bought an older 32" Centauro band saw that was run with flat tires.
My smaller band saws both have crowned tires, so flat tires make me a little apprehensive.

I was quoted $915 to vulcanize, crown and balance both wheels :eek:

The rubber tire on the lower wheel is in very good condition, but I need a new tire on the upper wheel.
I can replace the upper wheel tire myself if I use a flat tire, so that's a big saving.

I'm looking for confirmation that flat tires will work for tracking with blades of 3/4" and up in width.

The wheel rims are about 1 7/8" wide, in case that make a difference.

Any advice welcome. Thanks, Mark

[Andrew Hughes]

My bandsaw has vulcanized flat tires. I’m thinking they are better then rubber tires I can properly track 1 inch blades and 1/4 inch blades. I have a Aggizani B 20/20.
When I had a 14 inch powermatic bandsaw I replaced the tires several time with good results. I used to have a laguna 18 inch that need new tires. I failed miserably on the tires. I had them done at dailysaw in South Gate. Kairos tooling has taken over daily saw.
I bet they do bandsaw tires in case you need help.
Good Luck

[Mike Kees]

Flat tires are the norm on big Euro bandsaws. Yes they will track wide blades well, that is what they do best. I own a Centauro CO 600 made in 1980 that has flat tires and tracks like a dream. It lives with a 3/4'' blade on it full time.

[Tom Trees]

I thought all the Centauros had quick change tires of a rubbery concoction, and not real rubber (vulcanised)
If so, then note that there is a possibly a very good chance of there being a track/groove in the centre on these wheels specifically
for fast changing, see on youtube, the original Sam Blasco minimax mm16 video on youtube, where he mentions this.

Might be worth seeing if you can dress them, I'd guess this would be a common thing if there were lesser Centauro's about!

ps A 3/4" blade will track well with the teeth off the wheels.
https://youtu.be/lGCnAQKWwAY

Tom

[jerry cousins]

My mm16 has flat tires with 1” carbide blade- teeth just hang over the edge- only used for re-sawing. 14” delta has crowned tires - blade sits center on the crown
Jerry

[Tom M King]

Flat tires will not only work for that bandsaw, but they're easy to replace. Holding the tire in your hand, heat it with a heat gun as you jump it along with your other hand. Go all the way around until it's almost too hot to hold, and it will go right on. There is a groove on the wheel that holds the little tongue on the tire in place. It will be obvious when you have it in your hand.

[Jim Becker]

As has been noted, flat tires are quite normal for these large, heavy machines...even my 2004 MM16 has flat tires. Also note that you track them with the tips of the band just off the wheel so that the wheels don't compress the tooth set. This is a major reason why running a narrow blade on these machines is a bit difficult because you have to re-track them for center and subsequently a tensioned blade will lose set faster.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes flat tires work fine, that’s what is common on the Euro saws.

I buy the rubber a bit longer than required then cut and glue it on.

I use high strength contact cement, coat the wheel and strip except for the last few inches. Then with a helper to hold the strip I bond the rubber to the wheel with a rubber mallet. Once it’s all on except for the last few inches I cut the strip to make a butt joint, apply the contact cement and once dry, I bond that.

I use a piece of wax paper and a couple of popsicle sticks to keep the parts separated until the glue is dry…….Rod.

[Mark Gibney]

That's good news - that flat tires are the standard on these big band saws.

However the wheel rim is nearly 2" wide. If the blade is say 1" wide and the teeth are off the edge, that leaves over 1" of "unused" tire behind the blade. Is that normal in this situation?

[Tom Trees]

That's good news - that flat tires are the standard on these big band saws.

However the wheel rim is nearly 2" wide. If the blade is say 1" wide and the teeth are off the edge, that leaves over 1" of "unused" tire behind the blade. Is that normal in this situation?

It begs the question...
On my Italian machine the top wheel shaft is able to shift in/out of the carriage.
Not heard of folks addressing the edges of the tires to account for wear, but for a machine with tires which have been very bad damaged,
theoretically possible to match a new sharp edge with the other one.
They would need to be very bad like mine to need go this far into the wheel, as you would be gaining width dressing the face of the tires
475541
475539475540

I left the top wheel to experiment and try see how important a sharp edge is.
Still mucking about making bearing spacers for the wheels, which are different than on the Centauro,
so some interesting mucking about to do.

Tom

[Erik Loza]

I thought all the Centauros had quick change tires..

Not the early ones. Only the contemporary "white" Centauros.

Erik

[Mike Kees]

Eric ,where is a good source for new rubber tires for a Centauro ? Mine are like Rod Sheridan described, glued in place with a butt joint on an angle. At least 1/4'' thick maybe 10mm, I would have to measure to be sure. About a week ago ,I had just started my saw when my blade broke. A fairly large chunk was ripped out of my upper tire. The bottom one is still real good. Would it be a good idea to replace both tires at the same time or just the one that needs it ?

[Jim Becker]

That's good news - that flat tires are the standard on these big band saws.

However the wheel rim is nearly 2" wide. If the blade is say 1" wide and the teeth are off the edge, that leaves over 1" of "unused" tire behind the blade. Is that normal in this situation?
Yes, actually. :)

[Greg Quenneville]

I have owned three Italian 24” saws and they all have flat tires. Like Mike K, I had an old tire fail (spectacularly) due, I think, to very old glue and a 1” blade tensioned to the limit.

I bought tires online (Carter maybe) and never had a problem since.

Greg

[Rod Sheridan]

Last time I replaced one tire because the customer didn’t want to pay for two, I had to make a return visit a few weeks later to replace both…..Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes.…..Regards, Rod

[Erik Loza]

Eric ,where is a good source for new rubber tires for a Centauro ? Mine are like Rod Sheridan described, glued in place with a butt joint on an angle. At least 1/4'' thick maybe 10mm, I would have to measure to be sure. About a week ago ,I had just started my saw when my blade broke. A fairly large chunk was ripped out of my upper tire. The bottom one is still real good. Would it be a good idea to replace both tires at the same time or just the one that needs it ?

Mike, not really sure on replacement tires. If it were me, I might try to find some urethane tires and see if that were an option. Also, do you really need to fix it? Does the blade track and tension OK? You might be OK just leaving it as-is or possibly, try to fill the missing chunk in with some sort of rubber patch. Just thinking out loud.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Thanks Erik for sharing your knowledge about all things Centauro :)
I bought a new Centauro tire for my machine, but it is rather thin compared to the vulcanized rubber, and
one would need to install it inside out on a wheel without a groove and dress off the rib,
possibly flip it and dress the other side after, not much meat to play with.

I attempted to fill some damage in my lower tire using some polyurethane glue, as I seen Jack Forsberg had done so before.
I used some Gorilla glue for the first time, and possibly the last,
might as well have glued styrofoam together.
475608
I reckon regular shoe glues like Pattex contact adhesive would be much better for the job, although I haven't tried, some old stuff I have seems a bit rubbery on the end of the nozzle, and would likely be the best cheap stuff.
Van Husky and some others have suggested some 3m rubber and gasket material for the job of installation, so guessing suitable for small patches or even filler to some small extent.
Not sure what 24hr slow cure epoxy would be like, is it softer than some other types?, couldn't tell ya.

Here is a link to some possibly suitable material, various thickness, widths and lengths available for only a few quid, far cheaper than even the cheapest tires out there.
cheap enough that samples doesn't seem uncommon practice.
I suppose you can find this stuff at the big box places over there, now you have the name for it.
Should someone actually need to get new rubber.

One fella on the UK forum suggested this stuff, a fibre re-enforced rubber of sorts, but couldn't recall exactly what adhesive used apart from it being a contact type.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SOLID-PLY-REINFORCED-INSERTION-SIDE-SKIRT-NEOPRENE-RUBBER-STRIP-VARIOUS-SIZES-/371486065417?var=&hash=item567e4b8309:m:mUBFCz8Jxwq0-QA__JbPwtg&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=&campid=5338413729&toolid=10001&mpt=8762588


All the best
Tom

[Mike Kees]

I took a closer look yesterday at my saw when I was working at my shop. Bottom tire is still in real good condition ,I spun it around one full revolution and determined it is one piece . This would indicate glued down or vulcanized to me. The top tire however is installed as Rod talked about with a scarf joint that is slightly diagonal. This is the tire that lost the "chunk". I googled "rubber bandsaw tires'' online and found a supplier that sells them (one piece). They also sell a 3M adhesive to install them with. Will probably proceed with purchasing two tires and installing the top only for now.

[andrew whicker]

Bringing up this old thread...

how do you fill the groove on the Centauro wheels? Use the same rubber? cut off a small width and glue it in w/ epoxy?

Also, when re-tiring a CO 600 (23 5/8" dia), can you order pre made tires for 24" machines? Do you have to order a special size?

[Erik Loza]

Andrew, do you really need to fill the groove in order to move forward on this? I’m assuming that you’ll using this machine with a big blade. The wheels should be at least 1” wide. In that case, even if there’s a negative divot in the center of the wheel, how is that going to affect blade tracking? I guess you could fill the groove with epoxy putty or JB Weld if you really felt like doing this. You could also call SCM Group and order replacement tires for an MM20/S600P. Not sure if they would fit but that would be the closest to OEM.

As far as pre-made tires go, please be aware that things like Carter urethanes may not fit properly, since they are for a true 24” wheel rather than a 600mm wheel. Didn’t you have some shop or service that could re-tire your wheels in another thread? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Apologies for more misinformation on my part,
I was completely unaware that my Centauro spare tire from the main dealer (Scott&SargeantUK)
actually had a crowned profile to the tires, so impossible to flip inside out and dress off the rib like I had imagined.
511738

511736511737511738

What appeared like a flat profile on the tires, is certainly not what the blade feels
I never took a proper look at the tires, as they seemed kinda rough, and it took an embarrassing amount of time to take a closer look at them again. .


511740511739

Yes they may appear flat, but that is anticlastic curvature at play, when something flat is bent into a circumference,
basically the sides of the tire lift when drawn around the wheel, as seen clearly here.
511741

as mentioned on a Cooks Sawmills video about blades....

Not to mention the only clue of tire profile regarding the camber being of much importance on the SP
(you'll have to see post 6 to get a clickable link to download it,
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/centauro-400-ssp-bandsaw-does-anyone-have-a-manual.141846/

Which on the CO 600 tire, the apex of the crown being 1mm closer to the front of the wheel, @ 17.5mm.
511743

Sorry about that
Here's the video explaining that, and I won't waste my time bothering trying to convince someone that flat tires are no good,s
well at least for something of this size, as the lack of beam tension is very very apparent, and all the blade will do is rub hard enough off the thrust guide
and stall the machine, though interestingly will still chomp cross grain alright.
https://youtu.be/Y-pyJr7EMTw?si=8ZH39dTQDFauAR_x&t=166

[Tom Trees]

I think Andrew's Centauro CO is the second gen welded sheet steel saw, which I've not been able to get the production dates from,
as to when the first gen finished, not found that out yet.
The main difference between being the first editions having non telescopic guide post, and the seemingly non-adjustable lower wheel!
well I presume as much on this metal cutting flavour? (I've only started looking at these for interests sake)
511744

Can't find the badge on this one, but if that's correct, then the machine in question is the one which came after this one,
which was made until at least 1993
511745511746511747

And the foot mounted motor was no more by at least 1996,
511748511749511750511751

And notably the wheels not being as nice, and still presumably featuring a wheel without a groove,
as I guess a replacement rubber like one would have been used instead of what's presumably cork/rubber composite.

I guess the tire must have got ripped off the wheel in this case, as there's plenty of rubber on those vulcanized tires,
to dress them a dozen times or so...
I suggest getting some sorta cheap steel plate, say from a junk cheapie lidl/aldi tablesaw blade,
and cuttin it with an angle grinder to re-crown those tires.

You get loads of chances at this, even if you deliberately do things wrong.!
:o


All the best
Tom

[andrew whicker]

Andrew, do you really need to fill the groove in order to move forward on this? I’m assuming that you’ll using this machine with a big blade. The wheels should be at least 1” wide. In that case, even if there’s a negative divot in the center of the wheel, how is that going to affect blade tracking? I guess you could fill the groove with epoxy putty or JB Weld if you really felt like doing this. You could also call SCM Group and order replacement tires for an MM20/S600P. Not sure if they would fit but that would be the closest to OEM.

As far as pre-made tires go, please be aware that things like Carter urethanes may not fit properly, since they are for a true 24” wheel rather than a 600mm wheel. Didn’t you have some shop or service that could re-tire your wheels in another thread? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Erik

What's the secret to getting a hold of them? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I left a VM. Last time I went thru one of their two websites to leave my contact info.. that was probably a month ago. Got busy, life, etc. Now they are closed (east coast). They have possibly the worst website for parts that I've seen considering how highly their tools are rated.

I don't know if the groove needs to be filled. Does it? I guess I can try without. Also, does the clear rubbery coating need to be removed from the wheels before installing another tire?

To the people ordering rubber and scarfing their own joints... where are you buying the rubber?

There are these for sale... for a pretty big sum of money: https://www.scosarg.com/centauro-48-02-33-00-co600-bandsaw-spare-tyre

[andrew whicker]

Mine is 1980-something. SN 7565. So presumably 1985 due the last 5? Idk.

[Tom Trees]

If you haven't removed the vulcanized real rubber tires, off those wheels, then I suggest you don't!

I see you're looking at the Centauro tire, which isn't what it looks like on the pic, you will receive the same as mine.
Then the faff of removing the old tires, cutting the tongue on the underside, as these are for the modern Centauro CO machines, what Erik has mentioned,
and then you'd need to buy some glue, and that stuff comes with an equally hefty cost,
should you go for the stuff like what Van has mentioned, to bond them.

Erik has mentioned a Carter tire, which would need be dressed, should one with vulcanized wheels from 50 years ago (or however long real rubber takes to break down)
wish to replace, they might wish to do the best they can, and perhaps like the thickness of the rubber to be period correct etc

To cut to the chase, as it were...I can chance a guess you may not yet believe me about my thoughts are regarding flat tires,
as I did mention variables regarding a straight edge against the wheel before I dressed them,
whatever that error might be, that the square might pick up would be very small.

One other possible reason for scrutiny one might mention, is the wider block used for the crowned profile
so another chance that the original block I was using was throwing things off a bit.

But the idea of the upper wheel tilting might discount either both or neither is up for dispute, dunno.
What I can say is I've done this a few times and not seen much difference, compared to when I first attempted to crown the wheels
to get rid of a crater, which I should'a patched with a boot sole, and some cheap contact adhesive.
So I seen all that "flutter" and got rid of it, without altering wheel alignment (table was on at the time)
That was rule no.1, nothing resembling freehanding, or interrupted shavings.

Nothing stopping you from seeing how a flat profile works, and then you can move onto the importance of the edge of the rubber
(which doesn't act as a camber) and spend an age with wheel protrusion, i.e depth from chassis (which makes no difference)
before whatever next.

It's a good idea to start with, and should you get down to a flat profile when the pen ink is gone,
then you can stop.
You'll likely see the blade still wander on the very top of the upper wheel, when hand turning the wheels,
as having flat tires will not hide anything.
So you have choices then, still pursue the flat tire ideology, and proceed with alignment...
or forget that, crown the rubber and wing it regarding alignment, possibly as per in the Laguna manual or the Rikon guide.

Though worth mentioning again your era CO is the only one which accurate alignment on everything is possible .

All the best

Tom

[Mel Fulks]

I’ve seen both types work well. Only kind we had trouble with was some cheap thick plastic stuff that had no “ grabity “. That’s what
happens when a new hot-shot office guy buys cheap junk ….and wants a raise for his research in finding low priced rubbish.

[Erik Loza]

What's the secret to getting a hold of them? :rolleyes:…

LOL… Unfortunately, I can’t add have any insight there. I seem to recall that replacement tires for the MM24s were around $50 each but don’t quote me on that. Could these be a solution?

https://sgtool.com/product/2-urethane-band-saw-tires-600-mm-x-32-mm/

As far as prepping the cast iron wheel, I personally wouldn’t put any more work in than wire-brushing off any crud or obvious blobs of glue or whatever. Hope this helps.

Erik