Kitchen build

[john hejmanowski]

I am thinking about a no frills kitchen build (which I have never done before). There is about 350 sq. ft. of cabinet face. Roughly, how much rough sawn cherry should I get? 350 BF plus 25% or 50% or what?

Thanks. John H

[Zachary Hoyt]

It depends on what kind of cabinets you're making and how bad the rough cherry is, or in other words how much of it you'll have to discard. Also how closely the dimensions of wood you need can be fitted into the lengths and widths of boards you can get. I have built an island and several cabinet fronts for our kitchen from cherry, with face frames and ply panel doors, and that means less cherry. If you're doing raised panels or some other things it would be more.

[Jim Dwight]

John,

I built one kitchen several decades ago. I built a cabinet at a time. I was doing it at night and on weekends and I had a family that needed to still use the kitchen. So I built a cabinet and then removed the existing cabinet and hung the new one. There was one long run where I couldn't do exactly that but I still got the sink and dishwasher functional after tear out in a weekend.

Depending a lot on how much you have done other than a kitchen I would build a cabinet first to see how much effort is involved. An upper is easier and takes less material than a lower. If you like the result and still think it is something you want to do, you will also know a lot more about how much material you will need. If you've already made a lot of furniture and other built ins this may not be necessary. But it still wouldn't hurt.

Jim

[Myles Moran]

I love sapwood and will incorporate any of it that's in my cherry (and walnut). 20-25% extra is my go to for buying wood - best case I end up with an extra board, worst case I end up with only enough to redo 1 or 2 parts if i mess up. If you're trying to keep it free of sapwood I'd get closer to that 50% number.

That said, when I buy wood i pick out and mark specific pieces for their grain on highly visible parts (table tops and big panels). If you're ordering sight unseen, I'd add 10-15% or so to account.

[Dan Hahr]

So you’re talking 50’ of cabinets or more? That’s a lot. But you will probably need more than 500+bf by the time you account for waste. This is assuming you will be very selective in choosing grain patterns.

Dan

[Dave Sabo]

350 sq. ft. of doors/drawer fronts is not the same thing as 350 board feet of lumber !

[Jared Sankovich]

I am thinking about a no frills kitchen build (which I have never done before). There is about 350 sq. ft. of cabinet face. Roughly, how much rough sawn cherry should I get? 350 BF plus 25% or 50% or what?

Thanks. John H

You have never built a no frills kitchen, or a kitchen?

You need to design the kitchen, then calculate out the bd footage of the parts. Not just the sqft of cabinet faces.

Or just keep buying lumber until you finish

[Gary Ragatz]

350 sq. ft. of doors/drawer fronts is not the same thing as 350 board feet of lumber !

But, assuming plywood boxes and 4/4 rough-sawn milled to 3/4" for face frames, drawer fronts and raised panel doors, it's probably not bad for a starting point, even if the drawers and doors are overlay.

[Jim Becker]

I honestly cannot tell you what quantity you need because that's very design specific. But in my opinion, with cherry (and walnut) I like to err toward the 50% uplift so I can carefully select for color and grain as I make components for a project. That's actually the start of the finishing process and can be the difference between a nice project result and one that turns heads.

I will also suggest you consider how much work you want to take on yourself vs how much you source from others for components. Building a whole kitchen requires a lot of material as well as a lot of space to store assemblies as well as for finishing. Unless you want to live in a constant state of chaos, you'll want to have all your stuff built and finished prior to ripping out existing, for example. There is also time. For something like this, for example, I buy the drawer boxes because the time and effort to make them is a big chunk of time. 'Just some things to think about...

[Kevin Jenness]

350 square feet? That's a huge kitchen. I guess if you build in a simple style you can call it "no frills", but still...

For all solid wood faces I would plan on at least 500 bd ft. of FAS cherry. Sapwood is not considered a defect in grading, so yield depends on the specific batch you get and your tolerance for sapwood as well as how picky you are about color and figure matching.

Jim makes some good points. If you are not experienced in cabinetwork it would be wise to start with a small project to test out your procedures.

[Jim Becker]

Kevin, experience absolutely can be a factor and I'm glad you stressed that. At least prototypes need done if it's a new thing but a smaller project that would use similar techniques would absolutely be a good idea. I actually did that when I tackled a gut-level kitchen renovation at our old property in 2003. The island was the prototype for the rest of the kitchen and was even usable/useful in the temporary kitchen setup when everything was ripped apart for a month.

Logistics is kinda where I went because this is going to be a "big" job and we don't really know what kind of space, etc., that the OP has to do it, in addition to the drudgery for some things.

[Jim Dwight]

An island could be a good starter too. I redid the island in our last house and happened to use cherry - and cherry plywood. We needed more space and the island was particularly wasteful in the way space was used. So I made a new one with all drawers. They were dovetailed together and everything on the outside was cherry. There were two outlets too. It was a fairly significant sized project - about like building a dresser. We got a granite slab for the top. It was only about 2x4 feet in footprint - a small island.

I see an island as a good start because it does not necessarily have to match the rest of the kitchen. The kitchen in our previous house had white cabinets - and when I was done a cherry island. You could make it and then decide how far you go. That wasn't what I did, I never planned to do that entire kitchen, we just wanted a new and better island.

[Dave Sabo]

But, assuming plywood boxes and 4/4 rough-sawn milled to 3/4" for face frames, drawer fronts and raised panel doors, it's probably not bad for a starting point, even if the drawers and doors are overlay.


Well, I suppose it’s better than a WAG.

But your rule of thumb would always leave you short on material simply because you would lose the material from the milling process. It doesn’t take in to account waste from crooked or warped boards that would yield less than 100% either. Others have mentioned defects, and sapwood tolerance that further reduce the yield.

1:1 really isn’t a very good tool.

[Gary Ragatz]

Well, I suppose it’s better than a WAG.

But your rule of thumb would always leave you short on material simply because you would lose the material from the milling process. It doesn’t take in to account waste from crooked or warped boards that would yield less than 100% either. Others have mentioned defects, and sapwood tolerance that further reduce the yield.

1:1 really isn’t a very good tool.

I buy lumber based on rough-sawn dimensions, so 350 sf of cabinet and drawer fronts milled from 4/4 rough lumber is about 350 bf (not accounting for overlays).

I didn't suggest that the OP only needs to buy 350 bf of stock, and he understands that - in his post, he asks "Roughly, how much rough sawn cherry should I get? 350 BF plus 25% or 50% or what?"

[john hejmanowski]

Gentlemen, thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. They are all appreciated.

how about finish to apply? Any best practice for cherry in a kitchen?

[Dan Hahr]

Going that big, you'd better invest in a spray system. I bought a Fuji MiniMite 3 and wish I went better, but it will spray all day as long as you are not spraying too thick of a coating. I'd suggest looking into conversion varnish as you are going to need something that dries fast.

Dan

[Jim Becker]

Gentlemen, thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. They are all appreciated.

how about finish to apply? Any best practice for cherry in a kitchen?

Spraying for sure before installation. Modern waterbourne finishes like Target Coatings EM8000 CV or EM2000 with crosslinker provide a durable finish that also has a warmer color appreciated for cherry. Personally, I also prefer BLO followed by a thin sprayed barrier coat of wax-free shellac before spraying the waterborne finish. There's lots of discussion in the Finishing discussion area that will be helpful to you.

[Scott Bernstein]

I built my kitchen cabinets recently. I had built many projects around the house before like tables, desks, lamps, cutting boards, fireplace mantel, a chess set, etc... These got my skills up over a few years. Two years ago I built some cabinets for the basement...about 15 linear feet of upper and lower cabinets. The basement project was to get my skills down and practice; i figured if things got messed up no one would care. Learned a lot. I then started the kitchen project about a year ago after 6 months of planning. I built mine with 3/4" baltic birch for the boxes (solid on 5 sides, Euro-style frameless). One inch of solid wood edging with poplar. Doors were simple "shaker" style with a plain floating panel of 1/2" baltic birch. Stiles and rails were 7/8" solid poplar. I purchased approximately double the amount of solid poplar I calculated I would need (including floor molding and crown molding), and triple the amount of plywood. I was having the plywood delivered and I decided I should just by a lot of extra since I can use going forward for lots of other projects. All my poplar was 6/4 rough stock. Building the cabinets took about 9 months, working just 4-6 hours each weekend. Of course about an hour of that was just sort of organizing and figuring out where exactly I left off from the prior weekend... I chose to finish my cabinet boxes with two-part general finishes waterborne enduro conversion varnish. When starting this project I anticipated utilizing a spray finish so I invested in a Fuji HVLP system, which I had not done prior. The conversion varnish was a bit tricky to mix and use, since you only have so much time to apply it once it's mixed. I made it in small batches and went on quickly with the spray gun. I did four coats on the interiors and two on the exteriors - lightly sanding between coats - came out great. On the cabinet doors and drawer fronts I used a waterborne Kilz primer and a Benjamin Moore semi-gloss acrylic paint specific for furniture and trim (different than their "regular" interior formula). Both of these were also sprayed on. The doors came out looking super-pro. For cherry, I would have no reluctance to use the conversion varnish - it makes a very tough clear finish. Assuming you are willing to spray. Not sure if it can be brushed. I know one can order cabinet boxes made to measure, but I enjoy woodworking and wanted to make everything myself, including floor molding, trim, and crown molding. Time was not an issue for me - however long it takes is fine.

We did not demolish the old kitchen until we had the appliances delivered and I had built and finished at least the cabinet boxes. In one weekend the crew we hired to do the demo took the entire kitchen apart, hauled it away, stripped two layers of flooring down to subfloor, repaired and patched all the drywall and floor, sanded, and painted. We then hung all the cabinets and brought in the new appliances. Since all the cabinet boxes had solid tops (instead of just a couple strips to support the countertops) we had some form of usable counter space. The cabinets had no doors, but they were mounted and usable for storage, and we could have the templates made for the counters. At this point we brought in the electrician for two new circuits to the kitchen and new outlets. Next we had the floor installed (click together linoleum...real linoleum, not plastic) then the countertop was installed (soapstone) about 3 weeks later (make sure you have carefully installed and leveled the cabinets). While these items were being done, I was busy painting all the doors and drawer fronts, made the floor molding. At this point I've installed all the cabinet hardware and most of the drawer fronts and doors. I kinda messed up on a couple and had to rebuild them. I did this and they are waiting for paint. The floor molding is done and this weekend I plan to finish the crown molding. Once the molding is done, I'll get out the sprayer and paint everything left to be painted. Lastly, I will install the under-cabinet lighting.

Since you are making the kitchen custom, take the time to utilize all the space you can. No need for filler strips or wasted space between cabinets.... One thing I did was install toe-kick drawers. I have not actually seen these in any kitchens I've been in, but these are perfect for storing large flat shallow items like baking sheets, griddles for stovetops, folded towels, etc... I also put in some high-end items like an electric servo operated trash can drawer, mixer lift, a special pull-out shelf to address an inaccessible blind corner, etc...

A note on spray finishing. I constructed a room-within-a-room in my garage to use as a spray booth. This was enclosed by plastic sheeting and open (no plastic) towards the opened garage door. You need to make sure to protect yourself with some kind of appropriate respirator. I bought a 3M Versaflo PAPR system along with the sprayer, which is fantastic. Probably overkill, but certainly got the job done.

Good luck!

[Jeff Monson]

Gentlemen, thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. They are all appreciated.

how about finish to apply? Any best practice for cherry in a kitchen?

Amber shellac followed by a topcoat is hard to beat on cherry. Spray finish is the only way to go.

[Robert Engel]

Amber shellac followed by a topcoat is hard to beat on cherry. Spray finish is the only way to go.

+1. Garnet shellac is also a good choice, followed by the Target topcoats mentioned.

One important factor is lumber selection. Cherry can vary greatly in color. I've also used alcohol based dyes mixed with shellac to even out the color or on lighter salmon colored boards, but that adds another layer of complexity.

[Jared Sankovich]

350sqft of cabinet face is 58 linear feet of 42" uppers and 36" lowers assuming you are not counting end panels. That is a significant space requirement for cabinet parts. You certainly need to spray and will need a dedicated spray area with a separate drying room. For that many cabinets you will also need drying racks to hold all the doors and drawer panels.

I'd be looking at conversion varnish. You want something with a short sand/recoat/stack time to get all that done without watching paint dry.

[Jim Becker]

Robert, you bring up a good point...material selection is really important and anyone who is familiar with my posts over the years knows that I've often said that material selection is the first step of the finishing process. It really can make the difference between a great project and one that literally turns heads in awe.

[Jeff Heil]

I did my kitchen in cherry in this house and my previous house. I sprayed Target coatings EM1000 sanding sealer and EM2000 Waterborne alkyd varnish using my Fuji Q5 sprayer. Very pleased with the results. The painter that was painting the trim trim in the house was shocked to learn the finish was waterbased. Did 2 coats of sanding sealer and 4-5 coats of the top coat. Each coat dried in 15-20 minutes. In the house for about 6 months and the finish is holding up perfectly. Also did two of the bathroom vanities in black walnut and that looks great too!

[john hejmanowski]

Gentlmen,

Thanks for all the advise. I have to complete two Morris chairs and then summer camping with the grandkids so the kitchen will be a next year project. I have time for planning and a practice build and figuring out the finishing schedule.

Thanks again.

[Justin Rapp]

So trying to help here = The face of the cabinets is about 30" for base (taking account for toe kicks) and if your uppers are 42", this is 72" per linear foot of cabinets. That means you have 58 linear feet of cabinets? That is one big kitchen, but maybe also includes a sizable island, etc. Like others have posted, you need to account for your grain, if you want to only use heartwood, etc. Also, what will door panels be made of? I've done flat, solid wood panels in doors (instead of plywood). If this is your plan, vs raised panel, you can buy 5/4 lumber and resaw it into three boards and plane them down to 1/4". If this is the case, you will need less wood than the square feet of your cabinets.

You also need to decide if you are going framed or frameless, full overlay or not full overlay doors. Account for joinery, any moldings, toe kicks, etc. There is a lot to account for, and like Dave mentioned above, 350 sq feet of isn't 350board feet. Figure out your cabinet style, build your cut list and you will know how much your net cuts will be be. Based on your wood, how much you can yield from the lumber you buy will result in how much BF you need. The good news, you are using cherry which is relatively easy to get and can usually be mixed and match with boards from different trees.

[Tom Bender]

Hi John
To succeed with this project I suggest you make an overall schedule. Let me suggest a few items.

10 weeks - build and finish the cabinets

1 week - set up a temporary kitchen and clear out the old kitchen

1 week - demolish the old kitchen

4 weeks - floor work, walls, electrical rough in, plumbing rough in; 4 weeks if you can get the subs and materials

1 week - mud and tape and painting

2 weeks - set new cabinets and install drawers, pulls, shelves etc.

1 week - measure countertops, assuming you will have this done

10 weeks - fabricate countertops, and misc tasks including new flooring

1 week - move into new kitchen

2 weeks - still a lot of details to wrap it up.

This will be a very busy year. We contracted ours and it took only 16 weeks.

[Justin Rapp]

Hi John
To succeed with this project I suggest you make an overall schedule. Let me suggest a few items.

10 weeks - build and finish the cabinets

1 week - set up a temporary kitchen and clear out the old kitchen

1 week - demolish the old kitchen

4 weeks - floor work, walls, electrical rough in, plumbing rough in; 4 weeks if you can get the subs and materials

1 week - mud and tape and painting

2 weeks - set new cabinets and install drawers, pulls, shelves etc.

1 week - measure countertops, assuming you will have this done

10 weeks - fabricate countertops, and misc tasks including new flooring

1 week - move into new kitchen

2 weeks - still a lot of details to wrap it up.

This will be a very busy year. We contracted ours and it took only 16 weeks.

This all depends on the work he has to do to. I did my kitchen in 11 days from tear out to done. I didn't need to do any sheet rock or move walls. Tear out, re-tile the floor, install new cabinets, install appliances and hook up plumbing. We had a similar layout so I didn't need move much. I had to mod the sink drain rough in, and run electric for the new island. We got lucky that our granite company templated on a Thursday and was back Monday to install the counters. Work was done mostly by me with help from my father in law and wife.

16 weeks, not including building or mfg of cabinets would be unacceptable living without a functional kitchen.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, my total gut-to-the-studs kitchen renovation in 2003 at the old property was a lot more accelerated than that schedule. Leaving the cabinet building aside because I also had all that work done prior to going further, I was done in a month and a half, even with the gas line, drywall and countertops subcontracted to professionals. Lead times for things like counters were a little more flexible then, however, than they are now in some areas.