Panel Saw (hand type) Recommendation?

[Steve Mathews]

Apparently Lie-Nielsen no longer offers panel saws. What quality saws are recommended as a replacement?

[Scott Clausen]

I am following to see what comes up. I have a saw vise and with current pricing I will probably do the ebay thing and pick a older saw that needs some attention.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Bad Axe makes a panel saw patterned after the Disston D-8. Twice the price of LN. I don’t have one, but I do have their sash and tenon saws. Good saws, but I have a few old Disston backsaws that I reach for just as often. I would search for pre-1928 Disstons or Simonds and rehab them if needed. Likely an equally if not better saw at a fraction of the cost. Fellow Creeker Mike Allen1010 occasionally posts some in the classifieds or contact him directly. I believe he will also rehab your saw if you can’t, as will Pete Taran.

[steven c newman]

Disston used to make a D-8 as a panel saw....happen to have a couple....so do Atkins.
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These are my Disston Panel saws, both are 10 ppi....one is 18" long, the "newer" one is 20"

[Bob Betker]

If you are looking for new, as said above Bad Axe makes panel saws and Lee Valley carries Pax panel saws.
All the major manufacturers such as Disston, Atkins, Simonds, etc. all made panels saw in the 20-24 inch range. Unfortunately, all of mine are packed away pending this summer's move, so no pictures.
There is a nice Simonds #71, 10 point, 20", on eBay, asking $75. It looks like it is in good condition, ready to work and the seller is reputable.
There is a very pretty Richardson Brothers #12, 24" eBay but the price is getting up there for a used saw in my book.
Good luck.

[Ben Ellenberger]

I’ve been happy with the Pax saws I have. The handles aren’t as fancy as the lie Nielsen or other small companies, but work fine for me. The rip saw came with a really heavy set and pulled to one side. After I stoned the teeth it cut straight and after a couple times sharpening it the set is good.

[Rob Young]

Apparently Lie-Nielsen no longer offers panel saws. What quality saws are recommended as a replacement?

Can't say anything about them yet but these popped up in Amazon search for something else:
https://smile.amazon.com/Spear-Jackson-9500R-Brown-Silver/dp/B0043YN9BQ

They list a 22 inch 10ppi and a 24 inch 7 ppi

Appear to have "universal" teeth but unhardened tooth line and a handle that begs for customization. Quick browse doesn't say much about taper grinding.

At about $30 each I'm tempted to get one next time the Amazon Points build up and give it a try.

Obviously not going to be Bad Axe level stuff here. I bought a similar saw branded as "Great Neck" some time back and reworked the teeth from a universal (bulldog?) pattern to a crosscut and it gets used to break down stock or tossed in the trunk to break down stock when buying lumber. Works fine and was about the same $30. It is slightly taper ground, not much but apparently enough. Handle was of similar chunky shape but other than cleaning off the varnish I didn't do anything else to it.

[Louis Lampe]

I admit that I have a saw problem. Way too many saws almost entirely old pre-1940 Disston, currently designing a saw till for the keepers. I will share some findings on panel saws.
I have two of Disston ¨second tier¨ panel saws. 9 PPI and 10 PPI RIP. one is a 20 inch American Boy, the other is a 22 inch Keystone Pacemaker K3. These were a cheaper line of Disstons.
I also have a 22 inch D-8 Disston 10 PPI Crosscut.
The above saws will do the job but none of them have the characteristic Disston double taper. Just flat blades. They were sold cheaper than the premium line #12, a really good saw.

I have three #12 panel saws, 22 1/4 inch 12 PPI crosscut, 20 1/4 inch ripcut, 18 inch 11PPI rip. the first is a full width blade, the other two like ship (lighter) blades.
Given the finer teeth these are meant for lighter, smoother sawing. All are double taper and the improvement is noticeable. So far I have only used them in softwood. Filing varies: 15 degree rake and 20 degree fleam for the crosscut, 3 degrees rake and 0 fleam for the crosscut. The 18 inch I made a toolbox saw 5 degree rake and 10 degree fleam.
I do not intend to use these where my longer and coarser tooth saws are more efficient but these will cut anything albeit smoother and slower. I tried one on a 4x4 crosscut and it did a fine job but took a minute and a half to finish.
Short story is yes Disston #12 are plentiful and a pleasure to uuse, almost mandatory in thinner wood. Hopefully the sawyer has learned proper sawing technique because the light weight saws may not survive heavy muscle. I learned mine from Youtube. Stay away from post 1940 when quality declined.

Hope this is helpful to those considering panel saws.

[Steve Mathews]

A recent Rob Cosman video on saws reminded me I still haven't obtained a good crosscut or rip panel saw. Apparently, Rob will soon sell his own line of panel saws. Do you think they will match the quality of the Bad Axe saws or older saws of yesterday. Is there anything new in the offerings besides what's mentioned above.

[steven c newman]

Panel saw ...vs..full sized saws
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Shorter the saw, the more strokes it takes...

[andy bessette]

You might look at the Japanese saws.

[Jim Koepke]

A recent Rob Cosman video on saws reminded me I still haven't obtained a good crosscut or rip panel saw. Apparently, Rob will soon sell his own line of panel saws. Do you think they will match the quality of the Bad Axe saws or older saws of yesterday. Is there anything new in the offerings besides what's mentioned above.

Is your heart set on a new saw?

Depending on your plans and other aspects of your situation one saw will not likely be enough. Do you already have any joinery saws, bandsaw or a table saw?

Your profile doesn't show your location. You may be close to another member who is willing to help you find a decent saw in the local antique, second hand or used tool stores.

If you are willing to take a little time to learn about sharpening saws you can build up a good selection of saws for a bargain price.

Even if you buy new saws, they will need sharpening eventually.

jtk

[David Carroll]

I agree with the most of the rest of the others. I still see old Disston D8s at flea markets and yard sales. I pick them up when I can get them cheap. I don't know much about the ages of such saws, but mine have several different etches, I'll have to look them up. One of their 10pt, 24-inch crosscuts is one of my favorites. I'm sorry to hear LN isn't making them any more. I have both and I do like them, but they aren't any better (in my opinion) than a old D8. Very pretty, and I do like the thin saw plate, but there's nothing magic to them.

Of course, filing any saw is going to be necessary, so if you need to learn to do that it's best to seek out some older saws and practice on them before you take your files to your $300+ saws from LN, Bad Axe, or whoever. Once you learn to file well, it's amazing how well a $3 saw from a bucket in a yard sale will cut.

DC

[Steve Mathews]

Jim and David, both excellent questions and comments. You might say my situation with hand saws may fit what happened to me when building up a collection of hand planes. I started off with some vintage Stanleys and restored them. They worked well but after trying a new Lie Nielsen 5-1/2 soon replaced all of the vintage stuff with new and never looked back. I don't know if this will be the case with hand saws. I have some older saws collected at the same time as the Stanley hand planes but haven't used them much primarily because the need hasn't come up. I have a somewhat large collection of stationary equipment; SawStop ICS, 16" and 24" bandsaws, 12" Northfield jointer, 24" planer, etc but I can see myself gravitating more toward hand tools in the future. The power stuff does the work more quickly but I don't need to do anything quickly and sometimes slowing the process down seems to bring greater satisfaction. I found this out while hand carving some spoons and building small boxes. The only exception to this is in woodturning. I thoroughly enjoy using my Oneway 2436 and I would like to add to that another lathe, hopefully a smaller Vicmarc. Back to hand saws ... I do have a few new hand saws; LN tenon,crosscut back saws, dovetail saw and Rob Cosman dovetail saws. I would like to add to that some panel saws, new or vintage. The concern with the vintage approach may again mimic what happened with hand planes. Besides I don't know what to look for in an older saw.

Apparently the new Rob Cosman saws do not have a taper to them like the Bad Axe saws and what I understand about the Disston D8. Is this an important consideration?

And BTW, I'm located in NW Arizona.

[Tom M King]

I really don't like panel saws for anything. Too short for handsaw use, and too long to take the place of a backsaw. Whatever you get, make sure it has a tapered blade. I don't care how fancy one looks, or how sharp the teeth are, without the plate taper, they're aggravating to use because you need too much set to be able to steer it in the cut.

[steven c newman]

Disston started the "Taper" blade stuff....patented it, in fact. They called it Taper Ground....and most of their handsaws had it....except for the backsaws.

Somedays, it does not make any sense to whip out the 26" long, full sized saws.....When the stock isn't all that wide.....and you just don't have the room for a longer blade to work...why use such longer saws, when the amount of saw plate actually being used (short strokes) would be the same amount of saw plate on a Panel saw.

Actually..the Dungeon Woodshop has 4 such "Panel" saws in the tils...

NOTHING is more aggravating than a DULL saw.....where do you think all those old saws got kinked? Because there wasn't any sharpening being done...didn't have the time to do it, or send it out to be sharpened....Dull saws are made for Wood Butchers....

[Steve Mathews]

I really don't like panel saws for anything. Too short for handsaw use, and too long to take the place of a backsaw. Whatever you get, make sure it has a tapered blade. I don't care how fancy one looks, or how sharp the teeth are, without the plate taper, they're aggravating to use because you need too much set to be able to steer it in the cut.

Looks like I don't exactly know the definition of a panel saw. I thought every hand saw without a backing bar, dovetail saw, etc. is a panel saw, Japanese variety excluded. Not so? During the Rob Cosman video announcement of their upcoming panel saw the question was raised why the blade didn't have a taper. The response was he didn't see a need for it. I hate to be skeptical but could it be that his manufacturing capability is the limiting factor? Also, just to satisfy my curiosity how is a taper applied to a saw blade. Ground, forged,?

Edit - Looks like Steven beat me to the punch and answered some of my questions.

[Tom M King]

Panel saws are shorter than a handsaw. Those without taper are marketed to those who don't know better, and I'm sure you hit the nail on the head for the reason any are not.

[Steve Mathews]

To further show my ignorance I took a closer look at some of my vintage unused hand saws and measured the blade thickness at various locations. Most had about the same thickness throughout, even a Garlick & Sons (lynx) rip saw that was labeled "taper ground". The one obvious exception was a crosscut saw with "Warranted Superior" embossed into the medalion. The thickness varied by about .010" from the heel to the tow (thicker at the heel) measured at the back. I was expecting the taper to be from the back to the front. Is this where the taper should take place or should it be a compound taper from front to back and from heel to toe? I don't know if makes a difference but the Warranted Superior saw had the nicest sold wood handle on it. It was old and well used but you could tell it was much better made.

[Jim Koepke]

Looks like I don't exactly know the definition of a panel saw. I thought every hand saw without a backing bar, dovetail saw, etc. is a panel saw, Japanese variety excluded.

As Tom mentioned, panel saws are shorter:

499386

If you are cutting construction lumber all day long a panel saw is a useless pain in a place where the sun don't sine.

For cutting smaller items a panel saw may come in handy.

One feature of a taper ground saw is handy if one is working with a lot of soft woods like pine and fir. These woods, especially when fresh, can tend toward swelling and closing up when being cut. This can cause the saw to bind. Also, as Tom mentioned it can help to correct the saw if it tracks off the line.

The taper is ground on by machinery. Here is a clip from an article on the subject:


… Today I’d like to talk a little bit about one verboten topic: blade tapering. Now, a saw blade can be tapered in a couple of its dimensions. With a handsaw , a 26″-long saw with no back , it was typical for the sawplate to be tapered in its thickness. The sawplate would be thickest at its toothline then get thinner up near the top of the blade. My beloved Disston D8, for example, is .039″ thick at the toothline and .029″ up at the top of the blade.

This kind of taper is quite useful. It means the saw is less likely to jam in a deep kerf. And I don’t have to add as much set to the saw’s teeth, so it’s easier for the saw to follow a line (more set creates a bigger kerf that the saw is likely to wobble in).

But that kind of tapering isn’t controversial. Though early handsaws weren’t taper-ground, most people agree that it was a useful invention and embrace it.

The other kind of tapering , the kind that makes tool collectors blue in the face , is in the width of a backsaw’s blade. With this kind of tapering, the sawplate is narrow up at the toe and wider back at the heel.

I'll have to look through my old catalogs to see if there is any more worth posting.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Somewhere I read that the cut off length is 24", less or equal than that is a panel saw, longer than that is a hand saw. Although, who the hell knows, the Thomas Flinn company sorts them by tooth size, not plate size. (https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/product-category/saws/hand-saws/)

Who knows if saws made with modern steels will need a taper or not. Vintage saws were made out of cast steel, the steel that was mass produced during the industrial revolution. Cast steel is no longer used to make saw plates.

This is some of what I have gathered from researching saw history, I'm not a historian, so don't take what I say as gospel, non-guru here. In order for a saw not to bind in the kerf and reduce friction, the teeth must have a set. The thicker the plate, the wider the set must be. They invented the saw plate taper so that the user would not need to impart as much set to the teeth. There is another property to these old saws as well, it's referred as tensioning, the plates were rolled and/or hammered so that the steel grain would be under tension, in the same fashion a coil is under tension if stretched. I don't quite understand all the benefits of a tensioned saw plate, someone would have to chime in regarding that.

One thing to expect for sure regarding Cosman's saws is that it will not be cheap. I would not readily take their sales pitches about why one should chose their products. He has an old hand planes video where he's selling their no. 4 1/2 sized planes, the usual bigger and heavier is better nonsense. He makes the peculiar claim in the video that the no. 4 sized planes were really designed for adolescents, to be used in wood shop school, not really meant for adults to use (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSPARIqbeZA).

If you want new, why not try the Thomas Flinn saws? At least they won't try to sell you nonsense.

[David Carroll]

I use panel saws (by panel saw I refer to short handsaws that have neither frame, nor back) for bench use, as opposed to working on a saw horse or short bench. Examples are: Ripping short lengths of wood, often held vertically in a shoulder vise, or cross-cutting boards to length that are wider than what I would typically cut on bench hooks with a back saw (or miter box). So wood in the 3-6 inch range. Wider than this I would use a cross-cut hand saw that's 26-inches and use a short bench or saw horses. I could (and have) used longer saws for smaller stuff and vice-versa, but where the panel saws shine is for smaller work.

As I get older, the idea of ripping long lengths of wood with a 28-inch rip saw all day becomes less appealing. The same with cross-cutting wide boards or framing lumber. So my panel saws get a lot more use these days. I have an old English saw, I forget the make, that is 30-inches long with giant teeth, maybe 3 PPI? It makes my shoulder hurt just thinking about the type of work it was intended for.

As for taper grinding, I have saws with it and without it. If the teeth are sharp and properly set, then I don't really notice much difference. Early on, having the ability to steer the saw in the kerf to correct an errant cut was appealing to me, but now I don't really need this, so less set to the teeth and a taper grind is my current preference.

One thing I do like is to have the tooth-line bellied, and for the saws I own that don't have this, when jointing I take extra passes at the toe and heel to give a bit of belly to it.

DC

[steven c newman]

Try measuring at the tooth line, and compare to the top/back of the plate....Disston saws were usually thicker at the tooth line, than along the top/back of the plate.

[Steve Mathews]

Try measuring at the tooth line, and compare to the top/back of the plate....Disston saws were usually thicker at the tooth line, than along the top/back of the plate.

The plate thickness from heel to toe just above the tooth line is fairly consistent. The thickness at the top from heel to toe however tapers about .010". I suppose this makes it a compound taper. It's hard to imagine how this is ground. BTW, I'm describing the "warranted superior" saw mentioned earlier.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I own a Badaxe Panel saw - 20 inch 7 PPI Rip with the thumbhole grip. I also own a 1920's Disston D8 4-1/2 PPI 26" with a thumbhole.
the Badaxe blows the disston away. I'm a big guy (6'2") with big hands to match, but [my Disston] feels too loose in the hand, Badaxe went all out on the handle and its really noticeable. cuts well too, but I'm not sure that it is a good comparison between lengths and PPI's. I saw the saws Rob Cosman is coming out with. 1) no mention of taper grind on the saws. in the youtube he measures the top of a LN saw and the top of his and shows that his are noticeably thicker (I wonder if that is because of a lack of taper?). I also think a lighter saw is better. I'm only an OK sawyer but I've been practicing and I noticed that the best way to start the cut is to keep as much weight off the teeth as possible. I think a heaver, longer saw would be less beneficial in that sense (he uses some sort of composite epoxy for his handles). in short not a fan of Cosman's saws. also his saws are super expensive!

[steven c newman]

Hmmm..I own a 1927 Disston D8, 5-1/2ppi, 28" length.
499460
I find that it all depend on how one holds the saw....that thumbhole is for your left thumb. the rest of the left hand goes over the top of the handle. There IS a groove for your right hand to sit in...and the other 4 fingers go into the grip made for them...

BTW: 5'10-1/2" with large hands...

A short saw just means MORE cuts to make....shorter strokes. Haven't had any "issues" with binding in a cut, either....of the 28" of teeth, I tend to use 25" or so, before the handle starts to hit the wood being ripped.

I save the 20" , 10ppi for cross cutting smaller stuff.

Amazing what one more tooth per inch can do....

[Steve Mathews]

I own a Badaxe Panel saw - 20 inch 7 PPI Rip with the thumbhole grip. I also own a 1920's Disston D8 4-1/2 PPI 26" with a thumbhole.
the Badaxe blows the disston away. I'm a big guy (6'2") with big hands to match, but [my Disston] feels too loose in the hand, Badaxe went all out on the handle and its really noticeable. cuts well too, but I'm not sure that it is a good comparison between lengths and PPI's. I saw the saws Rob Cosman is coming out with. 1) no mention of taper grind on the saws. in the youtube he measures the top of a LN saw and the top of his and shows that his are noticeably thicker (I wonder if that is because of a lack of taper?). I also think a lighter saw is better. I'm only an OK sawyer but I've been practicing and I noticed that the best way to start the cut is to keep as much weight off the teeth as possible. I think a heaver, longer saw would be less beneficial in that sense (he uses some sort of composite epoxy for his handles). in short not a fan of Cosman's saws. also his saws are super expensive!

If you watch Cosman's video again I think you'll notice that he does mention his upcoming hand saws will not have a taper. I think it was somewhat of an awkward moment to admit that when asked. But he does state that he didn't see any need for a taper on his saws.

[steven c newman]

Also, I did find another use for the shorter saws..
499467
Works great in a Stanley No. 116 Mitre Box....

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

a thicker plate won't heat up as much or bind in the cut. but I would rather my vintage disstons with a taper grind than not. the disston and the bad axe are plenty stiff