Shop Build...should be a fun journey...

[Jim Becker]

I debated about starting this thread now or later, but decided on now because, well...I might forget something. :o

As a little background, at our previous property, I was blessed with a reasonably sized, fully conditioned space for my shop in what was originally a three-and-a-half vehicle garage structure with an upstairs for storage. I had about 700 sq ft of usable shop space on the first floor with only the minor headache of the stairway to the upper level kinda located middle-back of the space. Compressor and cyclone had their own private, sound reduced bedroom so they could do their thing without disturbing the peace too much out in the shop area :) and the majority lumber was stored upstairs. We moved 9 months ago to our "downsize" property and I set up temporary shop in the "garage". It's a nice space, but way too cramped for the things I like and need to do. Now that the old property is sold, some financial resources necessary for projects here at the new place are freed up so I can move forward with my desire to have a nice, dedicated shop building in the backyard. The target size for the new shop will be 24' wide, 32' or 36' long (depending on building type) and with 10' sidewalls. About 870 sq ft, more or less. One "man door", one larger door for machinery/materials/projects and a few windows for natural light. The building will be color coordinated so it looks appropriate with our home.

The general project can be broken up, more or less, to this...and I'm sure some things will get modified over time:



Tree work - removal of dead trees including one smack in the middle of where the shop will go. The plan is to not have to modify or endanger any live trees and that affected building placement. While I would prefer the building to be on the other side of the half-acre lot, setbacks would require removal of a very large, mature willow tree and that's not going to happen. This work has been completed
Survey - the exact boundaries of the property had to be established, particularly because on the side that the building will go, the actual property line is about 8 feet beyond the fence that separates our yard from the neighboring property's driveway and backyard. This is because of a driveway easement created when the property we own was subdivided from a larger space. Minimum lot size at the time (and still is) 20,000 sq ft (half-acre) and that was how it worked out. This is actually a benefit for the building, however, because it will be able to be about four feet from the fence line rather than 15 feet. The 15 foot setback is measured from the actual property line. The surveyor was out on Friday this past week to set the corners/boundaries and he was very nice in also setting a number of points important to this project for both rear and side setbacks and some other things. So this work has been completed
Zoning - zoning approval is required for "Residential Accessory Buildings" in our jurisdiction that are over 200 sq ft. Submission for that requires a plot plan that shows all existing structures, boundaries, utilities, etc., plus proposed including "stick figures to indicate motion". :D I've completed that plot plan and am ready to submit. Of course, there is always a catch. "Normally", the jurisdiction wants the zoning application and the building permit to go in concurrently. The latter requires a plan. The only way to get the plan at the required detail level is to have already made a decision on what to build and who to build it followed by the transfer of a large amount of money. Chicken and egg problem for me because I don't want to commit to a specific building type and vendor yet...still working on that. Fortunately, the zoning/building people for our jurisdiction are "nice" (really) and they can do a zoning opinion/verification letter for a "small fee" which is substantially less than the amount of money I'd have to put out for a building commitment that comes with the required plans for a permit. The zoning application will be going in shortly as soon as I have all my water-fowl properly lined up in a neat row
Building Decision/Pricing - I'm considering multiple building types for this project and ultimately, it's likely going to come down to cost. The potential options include both wood and metal post-frame, prefab stick built and stick built. All will include a concrete floor...as much as I would love to have a wood floor, the foundation requirements to pull that off would be financially impractical, although I will explore it. I have already started some preliminary quotes to help with the "what kind" question which will be followed by the "by whom" question
Permit - the building permit (and resubmission of the pre-verified zoning application) will come once I have "a plan". Literally
Ground prep - I will likely do most of this myself with the Big Orange Power Tool, which while small, should be able to handle the task. The area for the building is nearly level and the amount of organics to be removed is surprisingly little. Coordination with the next step is essential to insure jurisdictional requirements are met
Concrete - in most cases, I will have to contract for the concrete work independently from the building. Working with a local concrete contractor potentially lowers the cost since a building installer from out of the area would be subcontracting it, anyway, and marking it up
Building Structure - stating the obvious...once there's concrete the structure can go up. Caveat...wood post frame normally would go up prior to a floor being poured, even if above ground mounting of the posts is used on poured columns in the ground. So again, the decision on "what" may affect the general order of operations
Electric Service - I believe that the best solution for this shop building is a separate electrical service from the house for logistical reasons and to keep it separate from the whole house generator that was just installed. The house electric service is about as far away from the proposed shop building as it can be, making for messy and long trenching, too. Overhead from both the front and back of our property is available and both options will be explored with the local electric provider. My preference would be for service from the line behind the property because it can be straight areal to the building. From the front may require a pole. This decision will affect where the service enters the shop, but I may put a panel at the opposite end from the main service panel for convenience and they can just be flip-flopped. This will be accounted for in the plan submitted for the building permit. The initial electrical will be basic just for inspection purposes. Machine circuits and general lighting work will be completed later
Final inspection/CO - can't skip this step...nature of the beast
HVAC - it is my intention to install a minisplit for heating/cooling as I had at the previous shop. Uber-efficient and I can go the self-install route to save money
Interior - interior work will include insulation, lighting, wall coverings and what not, plus the construction of a sound reduced closet for the DC and compressor as I had previously. I may deck on top for storage
Move machines in - "say no more"
Electrical, air and duct work - built out to suit final arrangement of machines and work areas


Sounds like fun, eh? Here' are a couple photos of the target location for the building. Updates will be made to this thread as the project progresses, but it will be slow for awhile because of the zoning, decision and permit process.

474994 474995

[Bruce Page]

I’m looking forward to the build Jim. It will be fun to watch it develop!

[Frank Pratt]

This will be a fun one I'm sure. Good luck.

[Philip Glover]

Jim,

In 2015 I did the same thing that you are about to embark on.
The shop side of my building is 24' x 36' and the garage side is 12' x 36'. It is stick built using 2 x 8's for the walls and fully insulated with 24" in the ceiling.
The walls are 14' high in the shop side.
I highly recommend going with radiant heat in the floor. It's a must have in any shop that is in a cold weather place. Just set the heat at 63 degrees and all is good.
The concrete floor is 6" thick. I made the floor this thick in the event that a forklift with a heavy machine would be rolling over it - which has happened.
The shop has its own electrical service which is a code requirement here.
The garage doors were the most well insulated and sealed available at the time of construction and I am delighted with them. The large door is 10' x 10' which makes it easy to get large things in and out.
The shop matches the house in style and color.
Last but not least, a feature that my wife mandated; the shop has a bathroom which is another must have when building new.

Have fun,

Phil
475015

[Thomas Wilson]

Your project will be a great opportunity to build what you really want. You are thinking well ahead and you know your steps. That should make things go as smoothly as possible. I hope yours goes faster than mine has.

In unrelated news, I will be spending the night at my shop because the water line to the house broke…again. It is nice to have a backup plan.

[Lisa Starr]

I'll be watching this thread. I'm on the other end, as I'm in what will probably be my last shop which is 24' sq. I'm still happy with most of the choices I made at the time.

Don't discount you ability to have a wooden floor structure. My shop is of wooden pole style construction, and with a couple of extra poles I was able to have a traditionally framed floor hung above the ground. The important thing is having it all engineered for the equipment load you'll be wanting to put in there. In my case, extra posts were set to allow the construction of two beams dividing the building into 3 approx. 8' spans. The joists were then hung on those beams on 12" centers. There are lots of ways to make a building, the important part is that you get a functional building up and you're back to woodworking ASAP.

[Adam Herman]

should be fun. I am a little further along, we got 144 ton of structural fill today. dirt work starts tomorrow on a 40x36 Lester pole barn with a 10 ft x 36 ft "porch" that will get the tin removed and turned into a greenhouse. permitting is stupid, they would not let us just frame the porch and finish it later. even if we call it a "pergola" we had to put the roof on, so that we could unscrew it later and replace with the greenhouse plastic. the plastic does not meet our 145 mph wind load or our 45 psf snow load requirements.

local contractor is handling dirt, pole building shell, garage doors, insulating and concrete. I will finish grade, and do all the utilities and interior when they are finished. woodworking is one aspect, but also storage for the big red power tool ( 50 hp Branson) green house and garden support/storage, and mechanic space.

we wanted to go larger, but are going as large as we can swing with cash.

I also looked into a steel "red iron" style building and was really leaning that way until I figured out it would be 30% or so more costly because of the foundation/concrete work required to set the building on. got prices on Morton and a few other pole barn companies. Morton was about $65 psf, only advantage is their concrete column system. my contractor with the Lester building is going to be about $45 psf. I am hoping to be around $50 to 52 psf totally finished including the greenhouse and interior.
My neighbor had my chosen contractor put up a smaller building about a year ago and they did a very nice job on the details. Lester has nice aluminum extrusions and trims that really button them up well and look very professional vs the break metal and wide caulking of the Morton and another I looked at. They were also able to get a building about 6 months faster. I did look into versatube or similar and may still go with something like this for a bit more outside storage for hay and whatnot, but was not impressed with some of the details for a space that will be heated, it also jumps a lot in price when you have the snow and wind requirements we do. I am so happy that my contractor is handling the permitting and whatnot.

[Alan Lightstone]

Jim:

First, congratulations on the house sale. Always a huge load off your mind. It will be great hearing of your progress as this goes along. Nothing like vicarious living.

Yup, zoning, blech.....

I'll put in my two sense, again, about buying a used raised access floor so that you can hide the ducting and electrical runs under the floor. It makes for so much nicer a layout, and is infinitely adjustable as equipment changes, and you realize all the boo boos you made on the first attempt at placement. It easily can handle the weight of equipment. These can usually be found for a song used. Anyway, my $0.02 on that.

Obviously not your first rodeo, and your game plan sounds quite well thought out.

One quick question. How did you get zoning approval for that birdhouse? It clearly violates the setbacks you mentioned. :D

[Jim Becker]

I'm looking forward to this project.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with the wind load stuff like you do, Adam. For post frame (wood) I'm not even considering any "name" vendors like Morton as there are a number of options that utilize "more local" labor from the Amish and Mennonite communities just west of here toward south central PA. I have a contractor neighbor that I'm going to sit with to see if we can come up with an affordable stick built or if he can work with a post-frame (wood) kit setup. There are also a few fabricated-stick-built firms to consider; one swag quote I got was way too high for a "name" outfit, but there are a few "more local" resources for that too. From a metal post frame standpoint, it wouldn't be red iron. It would be "carport" type. They have their own uniqueness, but there is also a certain appeal when the design is right.

Phillip, for my area, radiant heat isn't as practical because there is a very limited amount of time where it would really shine and the cost is a lot more than a minisplit which also provides AC which I need. No plumbing, either...that would be difficult to get through zoning and permitting and very expensive to get uphill to the street for sewer. Don't get me wrong, I would love having a bathroom in the shop, but it's not going to happen here.

Lisa, I've gone through a number of scenarios to do the wood floor thing, but the complications and cost could be scary. It's not rulled out, but is a tough row to hoe.

Thomas, yea, time is what it is. Aside from the jurisdiction dance, the type of building and the lead times therein will be interesting to see. Not including concrete, metal is up in two days. Wood post frame is up in 2-4 days. Stick built...if prefab, a few days; if not, longer.

Frank and Bruce, I hope I can entertain you well in this venture! LOL

Alan, that bird house is built with ZipSystem and is made well above code. No worries. The only complaints have been from the squirrels because they haven't been able to bite their way into it. Yet.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim, thanks for starting this thread as it's always fun to follow along with someone's shop build and it's very educational too!

[Zachary Hoyt]

I'll be watching with interest too.

[Steve Wurster]

Good luck with the build, Jim.

Sounds like your zoning process will be a lot better than what it might have been in your previous township. How anybody can build anything in Buckingham is beyond me...

[glenn bradley]

Hooray! The fun begins:-)

[George Yetka]

Jim
Youre close enough your Amish neighbors can build you something. I would go 6" slab with radiant. Then have them through up the structure. Then fit it out to your liking.

I would at least look into it they can probably build it for the cost of you buying the wood.

You say the design comes down to cost. But the primary factor should be happy wife.

[Ronald Blue]

Sounds like a fun and stressful project ahead at the same time. Because of past experience you will design it to eliminate some of the things you didn't like previously. I second George's opinion on radiant. Radiant heat is nothing short of amazing. A warm floor almost makes you want to go bare foot in the shop. It is amazingly even and consistent. I still need to get my shop so it's air conditioned and am probably going to do mini splits. If you can make a post frame work they are definitely the fastest way. I went with 14' side walls and am happy with that. Shop power is separate from the house. 200 amp service in both off the same feed. Because everything was new the transformer sits outside the shop and feeds the meter base from there. Look forward to seeing the project progress.

[Jamie Buxton]

Jim, you said no plumbing about a bathroom. It will be a pain to track sawdust into the house to use a toilet, but can be done. The more troublesome issue will be where to clean brushes and the like - y'know, utility sink stuff. The kitchen sink is not a great solution. How about a not-to-code sink in or just outside the shop? It would discharge on to a gravel pad. The water source would be a tank you fill occasionally with a garden hose.

[Philip Glover]

Concerning plumbing, I had a small septic tank installed for the shop as there is no sewer where I live.

Regards,

Phil

[Alan Lightstone]

Could you use a cistern/water filter combo and septic tank to provide water (collected from gutters) and sewage? I would think you would get enough rain there to fill it (Bucks county had 48" of rain last year. Not sure if that's enough, but it is a whole bunch). Or could add water by hose to the tank periodically if needed. A method used in lots of off grid houses.

Added expense, but nothing like having a utility sink in your shop.

[Steve Jenkins]

Glad to see you’re on your way. Interesting,fun, and stressful times ahead.

[Frank Pratt]

We're all gonna run up you're costs in a hurry here. Hope you figured in a 200% contingency in the budget :)

Personally, I'd forgo the radiant heat. I don't have it & don't miss it. Well ducted forced air heat works wonders. There I just saved you a bundle. But the bathroom, that's something that I'd find a way to make work, even if it was a lift pump to the house sewer. $$$

[Jim Becker]

Good luck with the build, Jim.

Sounds like your zoning process will be a lot better than what it might have been in your previous township. How anybody can build anything in Buckingham is beyond me...

It was rough in 2007 with the house addition for sure, but that was when the township had their own inspectors that "thought very well of themselves". Since they changed to using a third party for those things, it got a lot easier and some antiquated ordinances are also gone...like the the one that forced us to use copper for hot/cold water in the addition rather than PEX. It was a really stupid ordinance because...acidic water.


Jim
I would go 6" slab with radiant.

Radiant isn't on the table for this project, both for cost and because I prefer the minisplit solution that I can install myself. If I lived a lot farther north and at a higher elevation, it would be more likely to be on the table, but not for here in the Delaware Valley that has only two months, if that, of cold weather and excessive humidity during the much longer summer season.



You say the design comes down to cost. But the primary factor should be happy wife.

She's happy regardless. :)

-----

For those suggesting plumbing, it's not going to happen. Sewer is required to head to the street. On-septic of any kind is not permitted in the jurisdiction. I will have direct access to the kitchen (albeit via the outdoors) and will use the stainless steel kitchen sink as I did at the previous shop for cleaning my gun. (I only use waterborne products) The powder room is right there, too. I couldn't add it at the previous shop because that would mean the building could potentially be used as an apartment which was forbidden in that township, so I'm used to it. :) The ultimate bottom line, however is that plumbing for a project like this in this location could easily add $20 to the price tag.


Frank, I'm sure that the suggestions are just payback for all the money I caused others to spend, err....invest...over the years from helpful suggestions of my own. :D :D :D

[Jim Becker]

Zoning Application is in for the verification letter. Once I have that, I can get serious with quotes and so forth.

[JOEL MONGEON]

Thanks for sharing your shop build. Looks like it will be a lot fun and stress. I'm eagerly following :)

[Jim Becker]

Here's a partial view of the plot plan...the rear area that has no PII. It should be helpful in understanding how I'm planning to site the shop building in the back yard

475118

[Andrew Seemann]

In my previous shop, I had 3/4 plywood on treated 2x4 sleepers (with vapor barrier and insulation) over the concrete. It was very nice. I'll be doing the same in my current workshop this summer, many years later than I wanted to. That might be an option for you; much easier on the back and you get some insulation from the cold slab and no moisture wicking through. Plus it can be removed in case some weirdo future owner wants to park a car in there:)

[Derek Meyer]

Congratulations on getting things moving, Jim. This is going to be quite the project!

It's too bad you can't plumb in water and drain lines. Not only for a bathroom, but for a slop/cleanup sink and a supply of water for things like wet sanding/grinding to thinning finishes and cleaning up glue. I hope you can at least have a water spigot near the shop so you don't have to go all the way to the house for water.

Don't forget a fridge (mini or full) so you can have beverages on hand. That will be part of my eventual shop build.

Derek

[Jack Frederick]

I think this will be fun for all of us. I agree on your choice to not do the radiant heat. I’ve installed a lot of it and can source everything, tubing, boiler, controls, etc at wholesale or below and chose not to do it. I do not miss it. I wear good shoes in the shop and am comfortable on the concrete. Yes, radiant is great, but I agree that in your area you are better off with a whiz-bang top of the line mini-split. I would suggest that you look at building orientation for solar. We are at about the same latitude I think and I used an 8/12 pitch. I use the Sunseeker app for that and it is quite comprehensive. My system, which i self installed, has zeroed our electric bill for the property which is a major savings here with our rates.

[Mike Wilkins]

Congrats on the shop planning; I know you are looking forward to having a 'real' shop to play in. Stick built on a reinforced concrete slab will likely be your best option cost wise. 2 X 6 wall studs will give you lots of insulation and sound proofing to keep neighbors happy. Treated sleepers, plastic and plywood T & G can give you a wood floor without loosing much head space.

[Kris Cook]

Jim - looking forward to following along with your progress.

A couple of thoughts based on my recent experience:

- High windows - let in winter light and sun and not so much the sun in the summer
- South windows as much as you can make work practically, for great light
- I am really happy with my painted 3/4" plywood floor on sleepers

Keep the pics coming.

[Jim Becker]

Andrew, there is consideration for a wood floor over the concrete, but that idea has to be balanced vs budget, especially with building materials pricing escalating again. I'm not super concerned with a cold floor because of our climate, the likelihood of the slab having insulation under it and the fact that I use anti-fatigue mats. But if I can find a way to swing the extra cost for a sleeper/insulation/wood floor, I'll make it happen.

Derek, the (only) exterior spigot on the house is as close to the shop as it could get and as noted, there's nearly direct access to the kitchen if I want/need hot. Already have the fridge...we had a small one at the other property that we kept beverages in. It will be going in the shop.

Jack, one side of the roof is south-facing, but solar on the shop would require removing all the live trees on the property. Not only would that go against the whole plan of building without destroying live trees, the jurisdiction wouldn't permit it, either. We've also ruled out solar for the house at this point because we do not believe we will be on this property long enough to justify...and that was a hard decision because there were non-financial reasons for our interest in solar for both normal power and backup power.

Kris, three of the four planned windows are on the south side and even without being up high, they will provide a winter benefit when there are no leaves but not present a problem for cooling in the summer because of those same leaves being there.

[Leigh Betsch]

I built my shop without a budget. I got everything I wanted. It’s great. I like it much better than the money it cost. And it has value so it’s not like the money is really gone. Well, some of it is…

[Jim Becker]

I built my shop without a budget. I got everything I wanted. It’s great. I like it much better than the money it cost. And it has value so it’s not like the money is really gone. Well, some of it is…
I'm more flexible than it might appear, but the reality is that we got $250K less for our previous property than we originally anticipated due to the foibles of the market and that means I have to be a lot more careful about what I put into this shop building. If I'm careful with costs for the structure, it means I'll have to do less dancing for other things I would like to accomplish with it with some tool replacements, etc. Professor Dr SWMBO also put in for retirement at the end of the next academic year on a "step down" program, so monthly income will be a little less starting in the fall. It's just a balancing act, honestly. It really does help that I do almost all of my own work for stuff relative to the house and property and will be able to take on some of the work with the shop, too.

[Charles Coolidge]

Question...are you able to pour a level floor in a shop like this vs the ridiculous slope that was required by code in my house garage?

[Jack Frederick]

I believe that a “shop” would not require the sloped slab the would be required by a “garage”. In my case the inspector asked if I had graded the floor. I replied that it was graded “as much as I wanted it to be.” As to the lack of plumbing, I could not include it in my location due to well clearances with the neighbor and grade issues to my septic. My solution was to be able to anticipate the need for the can sufficient to make the 100’ to the house. As to the other priorities, I built a return on the end of the fence to conceal my other needs;) No complaints so far.

[Charles Coolidge]

Another shop question I don't see addressed is fire suppression. I have a small and medium extinguisher at two locations in my 3 car garage shop.

[Jim Becker]

Fortunately, for a Residential Accessory Building, which this is classified in our jurisdiction, that isn't a garage, I don't need to worry about the sloped floor thing. While it "might" get a simple 8x8 overhead door, I'm more inclined to make a hinged double carriage/shed type door setup that I can insulate to the same spec as the building. There is no way I would accept a sloped floor for this building, especially after having to deal with it for the last 22+ years at the old shop! There will be no driveway to this building, either, at least in the current plan.

[Leigh Betsch]

My new shop is 33x40. Which is attached to another 1500 ft^2 of actual vehicle garage space. Everybody says to make it as big as possible. I believe this to be true but I can say that even just working in my shop I do a lot of walking. I think there is some advantages to a smaller shop where things are closer together.

[Jim Becker]

Your space would be a "dream" to me, Leigh, and if I could do that financially as well as zoning wise, I'd be following you in your footsteps. Our property wouldn't allow anything adjacent to the garage space for sure. I could physically go up to a 40' or so length in the available space in the backyard, but I'd been banging up against both budget and impermeable/structure maximus for the lot at that point. I'd rather put the money "inside" the building that would get sucked up by making it "more bigger". The new shop will be almost four feet deeper and and a few feet longer than my previous space at least! And it will not have the obstruction of a stairway smack in the middle of the back wall, either, so it will look and feel even bigger. One thing I'll have more flexibility about is being able to define areas for purpose in the new space. In the old shop, despite multiple rearrangements over two decades, the bottom line remains, "where can it actually fit". That will be less of an issue with a big, open space and with a taller ceiling. There will still be a small chunk of space taken by a DC/compressor closet, but the space over it will be usable for storage...may do a broader "mezzanine" type thing for that, but that's a decision for later.

[Charles Coolidge]

Jim what are you doing for lighting? I saw some high bay 2x2 LED panels recently that were probably the brightest thing I ever saw. Not cheap though about $100 each. The older I get the more extreme lighting I need.

[Jim Becker]

I'm leaning towards the 8' LED units that Matt Cremona uses, but what format the building ends up being will also affect that. But for a 10' ceiling I probably do not need to opt for a high-bay solution. At any rate, whatever it does turn out to be, it will be, um...bright. :) I'd rather have "too much" light than not enough.

[Zachary Hoyt]

My current shop is equipped with 6 porcelain lampholders in the ceiling for general lighting. I have two desk lamps that live on work tables and are used for up close lighting, and two more desk lamps hung on the backs of my bandsaws to illuminate the cutting area, and a sewing machine light on the drill press. They're all LEDs now, which is much better than when I had incandescents in there years ago. I've found that having localized light where I need it is more manageable than trying to light the whole shop up brilliantly, but I may be in the minority in that regard.

[Bob Riefer]

So happy for you on this Jim!! I think it's finally time for us to meet up and say hello in person... Once upon a time, sold post-frame construction for a living, and I enjoy the same hobby in my outbuilding now... so perhaps I will serve as a good sounding board. Message me if you're up for a brainstorming session, and I will happily make the trip.

Thanks!

Bob R.

[Ronald Blue]

I'm in total agreement on lighting. Make it bright and never regret it. I never wanted to wish I'd put in better lighting and I don't. You have to work to create a shadow. The light radiates off the walls so well that there really isn't a dark spot. With mine having 14' ceiling height high bays were the obvious choice and they are great. 10' not so much even though they are only about $100 per unit.

[Charles Coolidge]

Ronald speaking of which I painted my entire shop semi gloss bright white last summer, it was even brighter after. Paint store, "that's going to be way too bright you are making a mistake" LOL

[Jim Becker]

So happy for you on this Jim!! I think it's finally time for us to meet up and say hello in person... Once upon a time, sold post-frame construction for a living, and I enjoy the same hobby in my outbuilding now... so perhaps I will serve as a good sounding board. Message me if you're up for a brainstorming session, and I will happily make the trip.


Might just take you up on that, Bob. :)

----

Ronald, the lighting in my old shop, at least at the CNC and bench end was like being on the surface of the sun when I switched over to LED. I plan on continuing that tradition in the new shop. :D :D :D One of the wonderful things about starting from scratch...literally...is that there will be nothing in the way of setting up really good lighting even before anything takes up space on the floor. All the interior "finishes" will be completed before I move any tools in including lighting.

[Tim Janssen]

Congratulations with starting the building of your new shop. If you haven't considered it yet, I recommend that you paint walls and ceiling white if at all possible.
It will virtualy eliminate shadows.
Cheers,

Tim

[Jim Becker]

Tim, while most areas will be a light color, I will not rule out some contrasts. I don't like boring spaces. :) So I can assure you it will not be one big, stark white space as that would be very uncomfortable for "me". What I decide to actually clad the walls with will also factor in. For example, in my old shop, half the space was clad with T1-11 left natural. It was light enough to not cause issues with light levels but warm enough to make it a comfortable space to spend a lot of time in.

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

Congrats on kicking it off, I know you have been waiting quite a while. I look forward to following along.

[Andrew Seemann]

I did semigloss white paint on my walls and have a white acoustic tile ceiling. I regretted the pure white walls pretty quickly (unfortunately not quickly enough to repaint them before covering the walls). I think I would have been better off with an off white or light tan color. I'm fine with the white ceiling, but a little warmer color on the walls would have been more pleasant. Now the walls are covered with enough stuff that it isn't so bad, but I probably would repaint if the opportunity presented itself.

[Von Bickley]

Looking forward to following this build.

[Jim Becker]

I did semigloss white paint on my walls and have a white acoustic tile ceiling. I regretted the pure white walls pretty quickly (unfortunately not quickly enough to repaint them before covering the walls). I think I would have been better off with an off white or light tan color. I'm fine with the white ceiling, but a little warmer color on the walls would have been more pleasant. Now the walls are covered with enough stuff that it isn't so bad, but I probably would repaint if the opportunity presented itself.
You express my own concern pretty well. There really can be a "too white" situation and in such a large, open space, it can really smack hard. But I'm a long way from having to worry about it...sadly. LOL

[Leigh Betsch]

I went the T1-11 route. It’s really the only disappointment I have in my shop. I bought the T1-11 at the peak of the lumber crunch and had to take what I could get. It was horrible quality, many complete sand thru spots where the veneer was completely sanded thru. I returned 10 complete sheets that I wouldn’t have used on a hog barn. But I did use the rest and tried to put the bad spots in hidden area’s. Lots of football patches too.
my walls are 10’ and the T1-11 that I could get was only 9’. So I put a 1’ border right at the electrical outlet level. Painted below and MinWax floor poly on the top. Trimmed on top and bottom with pine 1x4. I do like the finished look.

[Adam Herman]

I went the T1-11 route. It’s really the only disappointment I have in my shop. I bought the T1-11 at the peak of the lumber crunch and had to take what I could get. It was horrible quality, many complete sand thru spots where the veneer was completely sanded thru. I returned 10 complete sheets that I wouldn’t have used on a hog barn. But I did use the rest and tried to put the bad spots in hidden area’s. Lots of football patches too.
my walls are 10’ and the T1-11 that I could get was only 9’. So I put a 1’ border right at the electrical outlet level. Painted below and MinWax floor poly on the top. Trimmed on top and bottom with pine 1x4. I do like the finished look.

i think you came up with a very handsome look with the stripe and tan bottom, even with the sub par material.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Adam that your choices worked well. I actually wouldn't mind doing a a raceway for machine wiring rather than conduit so I could end up with a similar situation. My plan is for 10' walls and that gives some flexibility around the idea.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Another shop question I don't see addressed is fire suppression. I have a small and medium extinguisher at two locations in my 3 car garage shop.

Charles, my shop/studio is a metal building, even so, I have 3 fire extinguisher updated and inspected regularly. People have ask me why :)

[Peter Mich]

Jim, I’m glad you’re taking the time to share your efforts and journey with us and for the opportunity for each of us to offer our insights. After all, as they say, it takes a village to raise a workshop. This will be a rich thread to follow.

[Jim Becker]

Another shop question I don't see addressed is fire suppression. I have a small and medium extinguisher at two locations in my 3 car garage shop.
Sorry, I missed this question previously. I have multiple, readily accessible, fire extinguishers available in my shop...even in the temporary shop.


Lawrence, a lot of folks don't realize that metal "burns", too. Sometimes literally. But it's also weakened physically/chemically by high heat. So yea...a fire can and will be a problem for a metal structure, too.

[Charles Coolidge]

Lawrence, a lot of folks don't realize that metal "burns", too.

A few years back a hobbyist caught his metal lathe on fire turning Titanium.

[Frank Pratt]

A few years back a hobbyist caught his metal lathe on fire turning Titanium.

Was that titanium or perhaps magnesium? Titanium is known for withstanding extremely high temperatures.

[Jim Becker]

Humanity never fails to have at least one person who does the amazing...even if it's something ill-advised. :) :D

[Jim Becker]

At the present time, it appears that the end-choice will be a wood post frame structure, 24x36x10, steel clad. The extra 4 foot bay actually works out nicely to provide some structural support for a separate sound-reduced space for DC and compressed air as well as some storage needs. I'll not go into more detail than that for now as this is still something in flux, both from a zoning/permit perspective and a final contractor decision. The local power company is also being a pain at responsiveness as I need to work multiple scenarios to find the best solution, both functionally and cost-wise.

[Bryan Hall]

Jealous! Super excited for you Jim. What's the first new machine purchase once this is up and running?

[Adam Herman]

At the present time, it appears that the end-choice will be a wood post frame structure, 24x36x10, steel clad. The extra 4 foot bay actually works out nicely to provide some structural support for a separate sound-reduced space for DC and compressed air as well as some storage needs. I'll not go into more detail than that for now as this is still something in flux, both from a zoning/permit perspective and a final contractor decision. The local power company is also being a pain at responsiveness as I need to work multiple scenarios to find the best solution, both functionally and cost-wise.

yep. something about a pole barn, it just ends up being the "best" choice. I was dead set on a metal frame building at first, but it was just not going to work out with the extra concrete work for the foundation and other complicating factors. my materials should be delivered next week, and they sit till the moment we get our permit!

[Leigh Betsch]

You have gotten, and will likely still get many good intended suggestions. I'm sure many of them you have included or at least given consideration. When I did my shop I listed the "Important to Me" design criteria. This was my "True North" and when I had compromises to make I would ask myself if the decision was pointing "True North" or not. It's a way of staying focused.
For me I wanted a Attached, Clean, and Quite shop that fit into the house design. This resulted in very significant decisions that were made early in the planning and also along the way.

[Zachary Hoyt]

It sounds nice, and I hope the plan will all come together for you soon. It sounds like there are a lot of moving pieces to keep up with in the design phase.

[Jim Becker]

Jealous! Super excited for you Jim. What's the first new machine purchase once this is up and running?
There are really only two machines that would be on the table, for the most part...a new cyclone and a new slider. Both of the old ones were sold prior to my moving things into my temporary shop in the garage; the cyclone because it would have been a pain to store and I wanted to go larger this time around with the bigger space, and the slider because again, storing it somewhere would have been costly and moving it twice "insane". This project is really focus on a new, dedicated shop space as there is no existing outbuilding like I had at the old property. The garage (temporary shop) is ok for small projects to get by at 21x21, but there's almost no space to assemble and finish anything larger nor is there space for good material movement/workflow. It's also uninsulated and unconditioned...I'm dealing with rust for the first time ever since I started woodworking in a serious way in about 1997. And then there is material storage...it's currently in a tent (literally) in the backyard.

---

Leigh, I've had pretty much a year to plan in my head what I wanted to accomplish with a "shop from scratch"...space, functionality and detached. :)

[Bob Riefer]

From all your knowledgeable posts Jim, I'm sure you're very well-versed in pole barns... but perhaps some of these tips will be helpful (or beneficial for the many others that will read here and may not be as familiar). My perspective from a prior career stop working for a large post-frame company:

I highly recommend use of perma-columns (https://permacolumn.com/products/perma-column-system.html)which have the concrete base sitting in the soil. The key is to have the builder price without the perma-columns first... don't even mention them... with that quote in hand, ask for perma columns... should be a manageable upcharge per post (and anything more, he's gouging you).

Similarly, the skirt board that goes around the entire base of the building, and is used both to pour the concrete floor to and attach the base of siding to, can be composite or wrapped for a minor upcharge.

The 2 steps above eliminate the primary weaknesses in post-frame construction (ground rot).

Note that post-frame can easily accept any siding and roofing that you wish. I personally chose steel because it is both economical and extremely long lasting (and can be quite stylish), but for those that want/need another look it's easily doable. The screws used to fasten can feature neoprene or epdm rubber washers... you want the rubber as they don't dry out and crack in the sun. Insist on this.

Insulating under the slab is cheap and easy to do up front, very difficult to do later. I recommend level floor (not sloped) unless you are building a car garage that will see frequent water (snow slop, car washing).

(Bonus tip: instead of "bookshelf girts" between the posts to hold insulation, and instead of in-framing with studs for the same reason, consider "re-girts" which are simply horizontal 2x4's affixed to inside of posts in the exact manner that the girts are affixed on the outside of the posts to hold the siding. It's fast and easy work, easily accommodates hanging of cabinets and the like, and nearly eliminates thermal bridging which enables a very good insulation factor. Sure, you lose 3" of room width, but the benefits are worth it).

[Eugene Dixon]

Add a permanent blue room. Maybe the neighbors will band together to get the ordinances revised to enable a bathroom in the new shop.
Okay, a bad joke Jim. But I'm certainly glad my "blue" room is a built in. LOL!

[mark mcfarlane]

...


Ground prep - I will likely do most of this myself with the Big Orange Power Tool, which while small, should be able to handle the task. The area for the building is nearly level and the amount of organics to be removed is surprisingly little. Coordination with the next step is essential to insure jurisdictional requirements are met
...
HVAC - it is my intention to install a minisplit for heating/cooling as I had at the previous shop. Uber-efficient and I can go the self-install route to save money


Hi Jim. Im so happy you are getting the new shop built. Very exciting and tiresome work.

re the ground prep: in Texas where we live the standard is to remove a minimum of 6" of soil that has any evidence of organics in it before pouring the slab. Then a layer of special red dirt/clay is added and compacted, concrete forms placed, trenches for concrete beams cut, plumbing trenches cut and pipes installed, termite treatment applied, plastic put down, rebar mesh built (or post tension cables laid), then the slab is poured.

I'm not certain of the purpose of the 6" soil scrape but suspect it is either to make sure there are no organics (e.g. roots) which may later compress or to help prevent termites.

I love my Mitsubishi mini-split. Easily cools and heats 1000 sq feet, blowing ~ 30 feet across the room. Took me a while to find someone factory trained to service it, even in a large metropolitan area. In my experience the service is more expensive than a conventional HVAC system and harder to find someone qualified to do it. I have a multi-head split system in another part of the building which complicates servicing and increases expenses. Basically every cassette head introduces additional service cost. Not something I thought about before installing.

I used open cell spray foam in the walls and 4-5" in the ceiling topped with blown in insulation. That appears to be the residential standard in this area. I think there is a limit to how thick open cell can be blown, which isn't thick enough for ceilings in Texas.

Having 2 power runs in the slab for my combo machine and stock feeder, and having 6" ductwork for dust collection in the slab for the combo machine has been really nice. This forces you to lock in the position of the combo machine but I tediously planned workflow paths and tool locations in the shop for over a year using 3D models and virtual walkthroughs. 5 years later the combo machine is still exactly where I want it.

I did have to place the 6" ductwork further from the outfeed side of the machine than one might think so I could do a gentle Y to split for the J/P and saw/shaper takeoffs.

475834

[Curt Harms]

I agree with Adam that your choices worked well. I actually wouldn't mind doing a a raceway for machine wiring rather than conduit so I could end up with a similar situation. My plan is for 10' walls and that gives some flexibility around the idea.

Not a bad idea. Maybe put air in there too if there's a way to incorporate pneumatic accessories.

[Jim Becker]

Maybe the neighbors will band together to get the ordinances revised to enable a bathroom in the new shop.


There's not really an ordinance that causes a problem for putting a bath in what will be the shop. What causes the issue is elevation and logistics for getting out to the sewer line as well as the additional costs for getting water to the building. It would be uber-expensive and I really don't "need" a bathroom in the shop. Had we sold the old property for what we originally asked for it, it would be still on the table. $250K down from there, it's not. If it were commercial, that would also push the bathroom idea further. But it's not. I didn't have it for 22 years at the other location, either, and that actually was because of local jurisdiction. The walk is about the same distance. :). But yes, in a perfect world it would be nice!!


From all your knowledgeable posts Jim, I'm sure you're very well-versed in pole barns... but perhaps some of these tips will be helpful (or beneficial for the many others that will read here and may not be as familiar).

Yes, I'm quite familiar with post frame construction at this point for various reasons. Cost factors will play a role relative to options like Perma-Column or even poured post supports, but my intention is to explore that with whatever post frame building I choose for the work. I have already specified laminated columns and will likely, at the least, use additional methods for longer term preservation. The grade board is already specified for wrapping for the reasons you mentioned. All girts are horizontal on the face of the posts in any design I'd consider. The floor will be level. No you-know-whatting-way would I accept a sloped floor for this building after having to live with that for over 22 years at the old shop! Legally, it's considered a "Residential Accessory Building", not a garage, so there's no requirement for a slope on the floor. The building will be sheathed in metal that matches the house in color.


Not a bad idea. Maybe put air in there too if there's a way to incorporate pneumatic accessories.

Yes, air in a raceway is certainly a consideration. I can put more thought into certain interior things once I have full settlement and commitment on the actual building structure.

-----

I got an email last night from the local zoning/building officer and he indicated that the individual working on my zoning pre-approval is pretty far along. Hopefully, I'll have that soon as that's the trigger for next steps.

[Greg Parrish]

I'm responding mostly so I get thread updates, but also to say congrats and I'll be watching the progress with excitement!

Sure wish we had a "Like" button. :)

[Jim Becker]

If we can ever get over the hump and move the forum software, there will be a "like" button, Greg. :)

----
'Just got a quick email from the zoning/building resource that was working on my application and she indicated she sent things over to the Borough. I'll get a call in the "recent future" from them when they realize it's there and in exchange for a nice check made out for $150, get my letter. It's "pass/fail" regardless so I'm hoping for "pass" for obvious reasons.

[anne watson]

Jumping in here like I knew what I was talking about, so here goes. Living in S. Arizona, I hate wood, cause of termites and woodpeckers. So I said all metal including doors and roof. Since I have a Southbend metal lathe I had the area where I planned to put it was a deeper area of concrete doubled rebar. It uses 220 so I had the electrician put that outlet high enough so I could reach it, just in case things went wrong. i also had a table saw using 220 so had him put an other 220 outlet. Put another 110 right handy for an air compressor. Since he was working on new construction he was able to do all the electrical work before the insulation and siding work was done.

One more thing , Since we do a lot work outside I made sure the area right outside was LEVEL

Now for the inside, first building they just used drywall, a big mistake\pain in the neck to screw things to.

Things I wish I has done differently
Ran waterline closer to entry
Used Particleboard instead of drywall
Leave out windows, We sure don't need a way for sun to climb in.

The guys who did the first job did so well , I had the same crew build a second bldg. Same concept except no windows, no 220 But using particle board for interior walls.

You can not stop thieve attempt so I made friends with the folks who use the tennis court next door, said just call the cops if anything doesn't look right. Living at the end of an alley with good neighbors means we have more eyes watching.

That is the story of my shop, sawdust and all

[Jim Becker]

Our conditions are a little different here, Anne, but I can appreciate your situation out there in the southwest!

I'm just thankful to be able to finally put up a shop building that's to "my" specifications from scratch instead of having to adjust to and mold what was already available like at our old property...not that it was a bad situation in any way, shape or form over those 22 years of "shop evolution". Lessons learned are a big part of my plans. And honestly, the thing that's going to be the most difficult thing in the new space is to duplicate the amount of sound reduction I had from an acoustic tile ceiling I cobbled together at the old shop. The difference was "yuge" from a before/after standpoint...and it made it a pleasure to work in the shop for long periods of time with both the CNC and other machines running at the same time.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Jim. Glad your starting to make some progress on the new shop. To bad you can’t get RR Buildings to build it. If I was planning a shop I would try to follow there methodology as best as possible.

[Jim Becker]

Jim. Glad your starting to make some progress on the new shop. To bad you can’t get RR Buildings to build it. If I was planning a shop I would try to follow there methodology as best as possible.
Yea, it would be a dream to have Kyle and his sidekick Greg build here, but aside from doing Diresta's "cathedral", they don't operate outside of their general area and for good reason. I don't think I could afford them, either. LOL That said, I've learned a huge amount from their work and have had some short chats with him on socials. I'm very certain my building will not be quite up to their standards, but I will also not be an uninformed consumer.

[Frank Pratt]

Yea, it would be a dream to have Kyle and his sidekick Greg build here, but aside from doing Diresta's "cathedral", they don't operate outside of their general area and for good reason. I don't think I could afford them, either. LOL That said, I've learned a huge amount from their work and have had some short chats with him on socials. I'm very certain my building will not be quite up to their standards, but I will also not be an uninformed consumer.

RR is a very good channel. Anyone contemplating a build should binge watch a bunch of his stuff. Things are presented in a manner that is easy to understand & he shows how something should be built right. I don't dare watch the Diresta project because I will want it, but I can't afford it and if I could I have nowhere to put it.

Jim, your build will be providing me with much vicarious enjoyment. But without any of the work :)

[Jim Becker]

Frank, if you're scared of Diresta's post frame "cathedral", you should be more scared of his wife's timber frame equestrian barn that also went up not long ago. Oh the drool I had to clean off the desk... :D :D :D

[Frank Pratt]

Frank, if you're scared of Diresta's post frame "cathedral", you should be more scared of his wife's timber frame equestrian barn that also went up not long ago. Oh the drool I had to clean off the desk... :D :D :D

I'm afraid to even go there. My Son & DIL are seriously into horses. They have a riding arena that's just an engineered steel building and it costs well over a million to build. Horse people are nothing if not dedicated (to burning through the cash) :)

[Bryan Lisowski]

Yea, it would be a dream to have Kyle and his sidekick Greg build here, but aside from doing Diresta's "cathedral", they don't operate outside of their general area and for good reason. I don't think I could afford them, either. LOL That said, I've learned a huge amount from their work and have had some short chats with him on socials. I'm very certain my building will not be quite up to their standards, but I will also not be an uninformed consumer.

Agree, that unless you are a Diresta type, he won’t be coming out to build. The good thing is that you can become very informed about Post Frame watching his channel, almost to the point of doing it yourself.

I watched the timber frame horse barn and it was definitely drool worthy.

[Jim Becker]

I'm afraid to even go there. My Son & DIL are seriously into horses. They have a riding arena that's just an engineered steel building and it costs well over a million to build. Horse people are nothing if not dedicated (to burning through the cash) :)

Folks think that horse owners are rich people...that's impossible because the horses eat money. Trust me on that...I've been five years horse-free now, brother. Can I get an amen? :) :D (that said...I miss them...some of the most empathetic beings on the planet, unless there's a tarp flapping nearby, of course)


Agree, that unless you are a Diresta type, he won’t be coming out to build. The good thing is that you can become very informed about Post Frame watching his channel, almost to the point of doing it yourself.

I watched the timber frame horse barn and it was definitely drool worthy.

Yea, if I wasn't the age I am or at least didn't have some of the physical issues I have, I'd seriously consider a self build as I can get a full "kit of materials" for the building size and type I want for under twenty grand. Doing the ground work and the interior will be enough for me at this point.

[Charles Coolidge]

Is all concrete the same quality or are there different formulas/quality? Something I never thought of when having my house built but did after when my concrete drive had some issues.

[mark mcfarlane]

Is all concrete the same quality or are there different formulas/quality? Something I never thought of when having my house built but did after when my concrete drive had some issues.

Charles, The 'concrete' used for a sidewalk/driveway, home foundation, sky scraper and nuclear power plant are completely different materials. Their cost is also very different, which is why sometimes buildings or bridges fail because the contractor substituted a cheaper mix, or didn't follow the specs for the steel used for
reinforcement.

[glenn bradley]

if I wasn't the age I am or at least didn't have some of the physical issues I have, I'd seriously consider a self build as I can get a full "kit of materials" for the building size and type I want for under twenty grand. Doing the ground work and the interior will be enough for me at this point.

I had to make that same decision during my journey. Over the last few years I seem to have suddenly caught up with being a senior citizen :). I now choose carefully what things I want to do versus things I just want done. The price tag often gives me pause but, the commitment of my time away from things I enjoy helps me make the decision.

[Leigh Betsch]

I had to make that same decision during my journey. Over the last few years I seem to have suddenly caught up with being a senior citizen :). I now choose carefully what things I want to do versus things I just want done. The price tag often gives me pause but, the commitment of my time away from things I enjoy helps me make the decision.

Me too. Plus it get's done.

[Jim Becker]

Is all concrete the same quality or are there different formulas/quality? Something I never thought of when having my house built but did after when my concrete drive had some issues.
There are SO many options as Mark mentioned. For this particular application, the strength requirement is a lot less than would be needed for a structural situation or a building intended to be used with heavy vehicles, etc. Also, with a post frame building the slab is more or less a "floating" entity and not really tied into the building. There's no foundation or wall support involved, for example. That said, the firm I'm likely going to use for the building doesn't skimp on the floor...their spec is fiber mesh 3500 PSI at 4" and is also scored and sealed which is a decent level of strength to my understanding.

----

Glenn and Leigh, we're on the same page. As much as I LOVE doing things myself, there are limits that I set at this point. It's not just the physical labor, either...it's about time. For a post frame structure put up by folks who "do that all the time", the building itself can go up in 2-3 days max followed by the concrete. It would take me weeks (or more) just to put up the structure if I decided to do the contractor side myself, even with help. I see no point in that as I'd rather put my personal effort into making the interior specific to my needs since that's where I'll be spending a good chunk of my time for hopefully many years doing fun things.

[Charles Coolidge]

As much as I LOVE doing things myself, there are limits that I set at this point. It's not just the physical labor, either...it's about time.

One of my neighbors started assembling the steel frame for his shop building 9 years ago, it's still not done.

[Charles Coolidge]

Charles, The 'concrete' used for a sidewalk/driveway, home foundation, sky scraper and nuclear power plant are completely different materials. Their cost is also very different, which is why sometimes buildings or bridges fail because the contractor substituted a cheaper mix, or didn't follow the specs for the steel used for
reinforcement.

Informative thanks Mark. When I have my shop built this is something I'll check, I think they used too cheap of a mix for the concrete in front of my garage. Typical builder trying to cut corners.

[Charles Coolidge]

There are SO many options as Mark mentioned. For this particular application, the strength requirement is a lot less than would be needed for a structural situation or a building intended to be used with heavy vehicles, etc. Also, with a post frame building the slab is more or less a "floating" entity and not really tied into the building. There's no foundation or wall support involved, for example. That said, the firm I'm likely going to use for the building doesn't skimp on the floor...their spec is fiber mesh 3500 PSI at 4" and is also scored and sealed which is a decent level of strength to my understanding.



They sealed the inside of my garage floor with some kind of lacquer, anytime I drip solvent it turns sticky. Are you going to do an epoxy finish?

[Adam Herman]

They sealed the inside of my garage floor with some kind of lacquer, anytime I drip solvent it turns sticky. Are you going to do an epoxy finish?

i have been really impressed with decoguard low sheen, a solvent based sealer that you can apply with a garden sprayer. it really soaked in and does not leave a slippery finish. does not seem to be effected by solvents/oil. and I have no stains. even with a hydraulic leak on the tractor. my concrete guy gave me the recommendation.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Sounds like what we used to call a monolithic floor, footing-slab all in one pour. Do you have a frost line that plays into this design, I remember seeing slabs and sidewalks heave from frost back in my early daize in michigan. If I remember right we had to go 42" below grade to get below the frost line.

...btw :)... about the age thing, let it go. nothin wrong with paying people to do it for you.

[mark mcfarlane]

I paid someone last Saturday to haul and distribute 9 yards of mulch and top soil for our gardens. First time I ever contracted this job out. Felt guilty but I knew it would have been 9 days of work for my wife and I and resulted in lots of aching body parts. Last year we did one pickup truck load per day (1 yard): 3-4 hours of vigorous work followed by anti inflammatories and the couch.

Two 30 year olds completed all 9 yards in 8 hours.

Back on topic, I covered my shop slab with builders paper as soon as the roof and sheathing were on. Pulled up the paper and had nice clean concrete ready to finish. The paper was particularly helpful keeping dirt/mud, drywall compound, spray foam insulation and paint off the slab. The paper in my area comes in two thicknesses. I used the thicker version and it held up perfectly.

[Leigh Betsch]

I did the rosin paper on my floor but only after the construction was done and before ceiling paint. It did tear plenty of places but it worked to keep the paint off the floor. In the end I don't really know if it was necessary because the epoxy guy's sandblasted the floor anyway. I did a polyaspartic floor. It works great. But it was $4.50/sq ft installed.

[mark mcfarlane]

I did the rosin paper on my floor but only after the construction was done and before ceiling paint. It did tear plenty of places but it worked to keep the paint off the floor. In the end I don't really know if it was necessary because the epoxy guy's sandblasted the floor anyway. I did a polyaspartic floor. It works great. But it was $4.50/sq ft installed.

This is what I used: https://www.homedepot.com/p/TRIMACO-35-in-x-100-ft-X-Board-Surface-Protector-12370/300095507
$40 for a 3'*100' roll = 300 sq ft. Budget for continuous tape seams.

My epoxy guy grinds the concrete.

If your going to seal the concrete yourself, especially with a clear sealant, keeping it clean is good.

[Leigh Betsch]

You are right. They ground the concrete with diamond not sandblasted.

[Jim Becker]

One of my neighbors started assembling the steel frame for his shop building 9 years ago, it's still not done.

That's kinda sad if you think about it...I guess the incentive to finish just wasn't there for them.


They sealed the inside of my garage floor with some kind of lacquer, anytime I drip solvent it turns sticky. Are you going to do an epoxy finish?

I don't have any current plans for a formal finish on the floor but will investigate options. It will come down to budget, honestly.


Sounds like what we used to call a monolithic floor, footing-slab all in one pour. Do you have a frost line that plays into this design, I remember seeing slabs and sidewalks heave from frost back in my early daize in michigan. If I remember right we had to go 42" below grade to get below the frost line.

...btw :)... about the age thing, let it go. nothin wrong with paying people to do it for you.



For a wood post frame, it's not usually a monolithic pour...it's a floating slab done after the building is up. Frost line does come into play for how deep the posts have to go, either directly or for any kind of poured support that goes under them if that method is chosen. For a metal post frame (think carport type or red-metal), a monolithic pour is either common or required. For carport type buildings, small structures can get away with just a flat slab and larger ones typically go monolithic with 6-12" of additional thickness at the edges where the structure is bolted onto it. For red metal, the requirements also vary with size , but the monolithic slab will generally have either greater depth at the edge and/or the locations where the heavy posts get bolted will go much deeper...it's a load engineering thing and red metal structures have fewer points where the load is supported. Monolithic slabs still "float", as it were, and are not build on a deep foundation. They do have a lot of mass when engineered for a "heavy" building and may even go deep enough at the edges and with any internal "beams" to be very much like a more traditional foundation in depth, but not being separate from that foundation. Note this is all very simplified and general and I'm not an expert nor to I play one on YouTube. I may have even said something incorrectly, so the bottom line is that for any kind of building, the whole project has to be properly engineered for both structural load and for things like weather conditions for the location it will live.

No worries on the age thing...it's only relevant because it must be. I "prefer" and love to do my own work including challenging things. But I also am not interested in hurting myself or screwing up a $30K+ project. So professionals will be involved.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

This is what I used: https://www.homedepot.com/p/TRIMACO-35-in-x-100-ft-X-Board-Surface-Protector-12370/300095507
$40 for a 3'*100' roll = 300 sq ft. Budget for continuous tape seams.
.

wat?…we call that siding

[Jim Becker]

I am happy to report that I just picked up my Zoning Opinion letter which states: "It has been determined that the proposed accessory structure would be approved by matter-of-right". Normally, a zoning request goes in with the permit application concurrently, but I was not willing to put a deposit in with any entity without knowing that what I want to do would meet zoning requirements. It was worth the extra $150 to get that piece of paper, IMHO, for peace of mind. Now I can focus on finalized what I want to build. The size is pretty much 24x36x10. The choice will be between a wood post frame and a metal post frame (carport type) building. If the cost ends up being close, I'll choose the wood for sure, but it will come down to the concrete work required for the metal building based on quotes I already have for the wood post frame that include the slab pour. I'm actually fine with either building type after thinking about it a whole bunch. Each has their advantages and disadvantages, but nothing is a show-stopper. It's going to come down to money, pure and simple. Now off to contact my mason friend to see what it would cost for what's required for the metal building to sit on...

[Adam Herman]

great jim! we are sitting here with a building in the yard of the contractor waiting on any word at all on our permit that was put in 5 or 6 weeks ago. and if you call they just say "its approved when you get it" wont even give us a ball park.

[Jim Becker]

Adam, we are fortunate here that there is a private engineering firm that is contracted to our Borough and many other local jurisdictions to handle all the zoning and building activity. They are professional and communicative. Example, I should have had this letter last week as the engineer assigned messaged that she sent it over last Monday, but the call didn't come. I messaged her late yesterday afternoon about it and this morning, I got a call from the Borough office that my letter was ready for pickup. I had similar experience with the two electric permits I've pulled to-date...one took a week and one took three days from application to my exchanging a check for the paper at the Borough office. These folks have no issues with questions, either, as they seem to value not having to do things over and over again because of misunderstandings. Hopefully, the permit process for the actual building will go smoothly.

[Charles P. Wright]

I understand the reluctance for a bathroom. After the fact, you might be able to get a yard hydrant installed, which should require less permitting and hoops than anything connecting to sewer/septic. When I was painting my rental house, I used a camp sink/table that connected to a hose spigot for cleaning brushes. The house has no laundry/utility sink, so it was well worth the $100 not to worry about damaging anything inside the bathroom or kitchen.

[Jim Becker]

I just use the stainless steel sink in the kitchen for cleaning up...and hot water. I'm a "neat cleaner upper". :D There is a utility sink in the basement, but it's old, really grody and not actually working at the present because the below grade pump up to the sewer pipe is, um...non-functioning. The is an outdoor hydrant on the back corner of the house closest to the new shop location. (the ONLY outdoor hydrant on the house) So yes, I could run a hose if I needed to for whatever purpose.

[Sal Cangialosi]

Best of luck and looking forward to learning from this!

Sal

[Jim Becker]

I will likely be making a decision in the next few days about "what building" will get the nod. I finally have most of my numbers so it's time to analyse things and "dive into the deep end", as it were.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Do you have quotes for all of the different types of construction already? It sounds like a very interesting decision to have to make.

[George Yetka]

I dont recall if this was mentioned but is there a plan for an attached compressor/collector shed?

Will the framing allow for a storage loft or partial loft?

[Charles Coolidge]

I will likely be making a decision in the next few days about "what building" will get the nod. I finally have most of my numbers so it's time to analyse things and "dive into the deep end", as it were.

My heart says stick built but my wallet says metal is probably less expensive. When my house was built 10 years ago the builder quoted me $30k for a 24x30 stick built but the real estate market was in the tank then.

[Jim Becker]

Do you have quotes for all of the different types of construction already? It sounds like a very interesting decision to have to make.

Yes. more or less. Formal quotes for the two top choices and more informal for other formats which helped rule them out for cost.


I dont recall if this was mentioned but is there a plan for an attached compressor/collector shed?

Will the framing allow for a storage loft or partial loft?

I will be using a sound reduced closet as I did in my previous shop. I'm pushing the square foot limits and adding an external structure could trigger the requirement for a major topographic survey and drainage planning which would cost thousands of dollars. (We had to have that done when we did the home addition at the previous property) I'm going with 10' walls so no formal loft but I plan on using that idea for storage over the DC/Compressor closet.


My heart says stick built but my wallet says metal is probably less expensive. When my house was built 10 years ago the builder quoted me $30k for a 24x30 stick built but the real estate market was in the tank then.

A 24x36x10 stick-built would easily cost me 40K+ before interior, electrical and HVAC work here. Trust me, I asked. The two top options...wood post frame and metal post frame are well under $30K before the rest of the work.

I will say at this point after playing with the numbers this afternoon, "most likely" I'm going with the wood post frame as the offer includes a few things I'd have to do independent with the metal post frame to get what I want (gutters and doors are examples) and the ground prep...which I am doing myself...is a whole lot simpler. I actually thought that the metal structure would come in a few thousand less, but after adding back in things...it's nearly a wash. That was a pleasant surprise.

[Jim Becker]

As an update, I've made my decision to move forward with the 24x36x10 post frame structure and will be meeting with the purveyor of the same tomorrow to tweak some details. I told the bird that I was getting a new cage for my tools and she wasn't impressed...probably thought I should get her a bigger house instead....

476706

[Zachary Hoyt]

My experience is limited to chickens, but even after 20 years of daily association with them I still have trouble telling what they're thinking.

[Jim Becker]

My experience is limited to chickens, but even after 20 years of daily association with them I still have trouble telling what they're thinking.

Sammula doesn't think...she demands. :) :D

[glenn bradley]

Sounds like things are moving along. This will be a great ride-a-long.

[Jim Becker]

So today...I bought a building. 24'x36'x10'6" post frame, color coordinated with the house and including all doors and windows. I'm doing the site prep myself. I will likely have a mason friend do the floor, but if that doesn't work out, the building company can easily do that. I may or may not have them do the ceiling and can deal with that later. Once I have the engineered plans, I can do the permit dance and hopefully there will be a building in place 12 weeks or so after the permit is approved.

"Vawwy Skawwy".... :D :D :D

[Christopher Charles]

Congrats on the big step! Have been and will be following along.

Best,
Chris

[Leigh Betsch]

Super! Not long before pic I hope.

[Lisa Starr]

Congratulations! I hope the permitting goes smoothly and you have a building in no time.

[Sal Cangialosi]

Looking forward to learning from this!

[Phillip Mitchell]

Woohoo! Congrats Jim! Is the post frame purchase through a dedicated post frame contractor and they are handling it all (sans site work, maybe concrete, utilities, etc) ?

If so, that’s nice for you in that you don’t have to sub contract all the little things (roofing, siding, etc) that typically aren’t in a framer’s wheelhouse. Excited for you and can’t wait to see photos.

[Jim Becker]

Super! Not long before pic I hope.

Here's a couple... :D :D :D. In all seriousness, the build will likely be early summer, but the ground work will happen as soon as the permit is secured.

476811 476812


Woohoo! Congrats Jim! Is the post frame purchase through a dedicated post frame contractor and they are handling it all (sans site work, maybe concrete, utilities, etc) ?

If so, that’s nice for you in that you don’t have to sub contract all the little things (roofing, siding, etc) that typically aren’t in a framer’s wheelhouse. Excited for you and can’t wait to see photos.

The firm I chose is in the post frame business. It's what they do. It can be as turn-key as I want it. At the moment, I've excluded the concrete work while I pursue that with a mason friend, but I can add it back in at any time. The builder used to subcontract concrete work, but they actually have in-house folks now for that, too, and the cost is reasonable. So if my friend doesn't want to do it, I have an out. The floor gets done later anyway with a post frame, so I have options and time. I'm doing prep work for that myself, too, in addition to the ground work before the build...the Big Orange Power Tool will get a workout and since it's small, it will not be as fast as a hefty machine. That's ok, however. My "job" is doing my own projects being retired now for five years.

I will be dealing with the electric service, interior and HVAC myself. I'm currently trying to get the utility to even answer the phone, but I'll get there. I may use the electrician I engaged for my recent generator project for some of all of the initial service. For the interior, I'm debating having the builder do the ceiling just because that's a pain. It would be a "do it later" job anyway and I can contract for it at any time. HVAC will be a nice Mir Cool minisplit...Costco now carries them and the 24K BTU system at $1600 is "very attractive", considering the 18K BTU unit at my old shop was over $3K and that was with me doing all the prep and electrical as well as getting a "friends and family" discount from the HVAC contractor. So I guess it's accurate to say that I'm kinda the "general contractor" over the whole project, but with all the heavy lifting done by professionals.

I will tell you this, traveling to the builder's location was a good experience. For this kind of money, meeting in person is nice and the inside rep I've been dealing with was very cordial to answer my questions and work out the final details with me sitting across a table. She was great. While she was preparing the final paperwork, I took a quick visit to the sample building across the parking lot and that absolutely cemented my already made decision to use laminated posts. The sample building has been in place for about 15 years and the solid sawn posts were a bit, um...twisty. Fine for a farm building in many cases, but not for a structure that's going to be finished and conditioned inside.

One decision I did have to weigh yesterday sitting there was flat vs scissor trusses. I really liked the idea of the latter and it was only about a grand uplift in building cost. But it pretty much eliminated the ability to do blown-in insulation and with 4' truss spacing, there would be a big material bill just for the structure to hold R-38 batts. So I chose flat trusses to keep all my options open. The ceiling will be about 10'6" up so I'm really not worried about headroom...low enough for not complicating lighting too much and high enough to provide for vertical material storage and spaciousness. The latter will be nice because at 24x36, it's not a "yuge" building by any means, even though by square foot, it's a lot more than in the old shop, minus the upstairs I had there for storage.

[Leigh Betsch]

I also considered scissor trusses to gain head space but then I realized that I could go with attic trusses for $1900 more and gain a usable attic.. The shop ceiling stayed flat at 10' but I have a 8'x40'x5'11" (I'm 5'10") attic above the ceiling to house my dust cyclone, dust pipes. air compressor and storage. For $1900 I think it was great decision. It did drive the decision to go to spray foam insulation which is more expensive than blow in, but the shop is tight as a drum.

[Jim Becker]

I briefly considered "attic" trusses, too, but that would have created a much taller building and would stand out a bit more than we want on the small property. The proportions of a 24x36x10 with 4/12 pitch are pleasant for where the building will be sited.

Spray foam is on the menu...I'm a believer and have been for a long time, but it will also come down to economics. Some of the additional cost of spray foam could be absorbed by not needing to put in a ceiling and that's not a small number in itself. I'll be exploring that with a family friend who's in the business once I get a little farther along.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Will you be digging the post holes too, or only doing the grading type of site preparation?

[Jim Becker]

Will you be digging the post holes too, or only doing the grading type of site preparation?

Just the grading and compacted base that will be as level and "perfect" as I can make it. My goal is to require minimal work inside prior to concrete work other than laying down insulation. :) The post frame company will do the drilling as part of their responsibility. They actually like to do that in advance of delivering the materials and putting it up as many jurisdictions want an inspection of the holes before construction starts. I'm actually glad that's their thing because it's linked to their layout. I also sold my PHD (post hole digger attachment) years ago because it was never being used. That one wouldn't have gone deep enough anyway.

[Bob Riefer]

As a reference point: In our recent home addition project (about 500 square feet worth of 9 foot walls, and 300 square feet worth of vaulted ceiling) spray foam ended up being about $400 more than batts, which made it very easy to decide what to do.

[Jim Becker]

As a reference point: In our recent home addition project (about 500 square feet worth of 9 foot walls, and 300 square feet worth of vaulted ceiling) spray foam ended up being about $400 more than batts, which made it very easy to decide what to do.
Good information, Bob. I appreciate it!

[Curt Harms]

As a reference point: In our recent home addition project (about 500 square feet worth of 9 foot walls, and 300 square feet worth of vaulted ceiling) spray foam ended up being about $400 more than batts, which made it very easy to decide what to do.

One thing I've wondered about spray foam insulation. If someone wanted to add wiring of some description after the spray foam was in place, how would they do it? I assume the spray foam fills all the cavities and is flush with drywall. Any wiring goes into interior walls which are not insulated?

[Jim Becker]

One thing I've wondered about spray foam insulation. If someone wanted to add wiring of some description after the spray foam was in place, how would they do it? I assume the spray foam fills all the cavities and is flush with drywall. Any wiring goes into interior walls which are not insulated?

That's a good question and one I have actual experience with at the old property in the media room...I needed to get some additional cables in the wall between a large screen and the gear on a low table below that were inadvertently forgotten during pre-wiring in the build. In one bay the spray foam in the 5.5" deep bay wasn't all the way to the drywall for most of the run and I was able to fish it down behind the drywall. In the other bay...it had been oversprayed. No way to fish it. That particular wall was 2x4...as were most of the walls in the addition to save money that in-turn helped cover part of the spray foam cost. Closed cell spray foam when properly installed in a 2x6 wall generally shouldn't have the bays filled, but it happens. 2x4 walls would generally be a nearly full fill so a high percentage of the time, fishing would be hard or impossible. Open cell (which isn't of interest to me) is often over sprayed and then trimmed back to full fill thickness. Same challenge as closed cell, although easier to "dig out to get down through the wall between point A and point B.

So the alternative (and easiest, IMHO) method is you cut out a strip of drywall, make a channel in the foam for the wiring and repair the wall. But honestly, I had to do that here at the new place with just regular insulation when fixing a serious electrical issue that the previous owner left in the wall.

For a post frame structure, the walls are "very deep". The posts are typically nominal 6" plus you have the exterior girts at 1.5" thick before the exterior wall material and on the inside, it's typical to use horizontal girts, too, which adds another 1.5" That's almost 10" of space...and you'd never fill that with spray foam. Now for my building, the only wiring that will be "in" the wall is the general utility stuff...lighting, a couple of basic 120v circuits, etc., most likely. I tend to favor surface mount for machine circuits so they are easy to move/change/extend, etc. I may not really know where everything is going to be located before putting up the interior wall surfaces, honestly.

[Charles Coolidge]

Height question...is going taller only price per foot of height more expensive e.g. 10 feet divided by 10 * 12, 14, 16 or does going taller jump more substantially than the price per foot of a 10 foot tall building?

[Jim Becker]

Height question...is going taller only price per foot of height more expensive e.g. 10 feet divided by 10 * 12, 14, 16 or does going taller jump more substantially than the price per foot of a 10 foot tall building?

Height increases cost for longer laminated posts, more horizontal girts and taller sidewall metal. Until you get to a substantially larger building, the cost adjustment is likely somewhat linear, but there may also be a need for more structural beef in the posts and how the posts engage with the ground at that point. For the size of building I'm putting up, it's generally unusual to do more than, say...12' walls...although one might do 14' if they are going to be housing a large RV to allow for overhead door clearance. I played a little with the thought of a 12' wall, but could not justify it for my personal needs for both cost and proportions. 10' seemed like a good choice for my solution. It provides a level of headroom that's comfortable for material handling and the feeling of spaciousness while not pushing lighting into more expensive "high bay" fixtures and more material for interior finishing.

BTW, the one quote I got for a quasi-stick-built building (wall panels pre-manufactured for fast build) was pushing $40K because of material costs as well as foundation requirements. Right now, I've committed to about $26K including concrete for the same size building via post frame construction. Since I need to still add electrical and interior finishing to those numbers, I think you can probably appreciate why I made the choice I did.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Jim, glad you finally picked a builder and can really start getting excited to have them start building!

[Curt Harms]

.........
BTW, the one quote I got for a quasi-stick-built building (wall panels pre-manufactured for fast build) was pushing $40K because of material costs as well as foundation requirements. Right now, I've committed to about $26K including concrete for the same size building via post frame construction. Since I need to still add electrical and interior finishing to those numbers, I think you can probably appreciate why I made the choice I did.

I'd wondered about pricing on quasi-prefab. We looked at that type of construction for houses some years ago and it was pretty attractive. Substantial difference between $26K and close to $40K though.

[Jim Becker]

I'd wondered about pricing on quasi-prefab. We looked at that type of construction for houses some years ago and it was pretty attractive. Substantial difference between $26K and close to $40K though.

Yea, I thought it would be more competitive. But between escalated material prices and the need for "more' material (lumber, trusses, sheathing, etc.) plus the heavier foundation/floor requirements, it adds up. I got general pricing from two different firms for the pre-manufactured wall panel format and both were substantially more than I expected. The metal (carport style) building was very attractive in cost but when the heavier monolithic slab was added to the cost plus some things missing because they couldn't provide to my specification (doors/windows/gutters), the wood post frame was the best financial choice. I've been a fan of the format for a long time anyway, so I'm comfortable with the choice.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

What a fun project Jim, fun for us too!

[Charles Coolidge]

What are you going to do on the inside walls, stud & sheetrock? I built a post frame on a local post frame builder's virtual build your shop tool. It looks like this type of building just has metal siding and the post framing.

[Jim Becker]

What are you going to do on the inside walls, stud & sheetrock? I built a post frame on a local post frame builder's virtual build your shop tool. It looks like this type of building just has metal siding and the post framing.

I am not going to do stud walls...that would just add back the cost that's gone from not stick framing. Horizontal 2x4 girts at 2' on center will hold whatever I decide to put on the walls very securely. The final selection for wall covering will not come until later because of cost fluctuations. One thing that will not be on the walls is ordinary OSB...I hate the stuff. With a passion. :) I honestly do not have any aversion to sheetrock as it's not my practice to screw things to the wall wherever and I'll likely use a cleat system for hanging things with the cleats centered over the girts. Because I opted for the laminated posts, the walls should be pretty darn flat and straight, too...it really makes a difference.

To help you visualize how interiors are often done for post frame, you might enjoy watching this particular RR Buildings episode from a few years ago that deals with that subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvzJna_SrwI

Interestingly, the material for cleats will essentially be free as I just got dibs to rip out all the #1 1x4 and 1x6 pine moldings from the "horror show" house next door that's going to be demolished in a couple of months. It's some of the little bit of salvageable material from the house...very sad that the previous owners didn't do any maintenance for...decades. A neighbor down the street who is a builder and his spouse (who is a Borough council member) bought the property to rehab and resell, but later discovered so much hidden water damage and other structural issues that it's been determined recycling, demolition and juet reselling the lot for more than they paid for the property "as is" is the best financial course. They really wanted to do something nice for the neighborhood, but "no good deed goes unpunished" was in full force. So if anyone wants a nice .375 acre lot and to be my neighbor... :D

[Jim Becker]

Yesterday (Monday) I took advantage of the sunny day and used the laser to do preliminary elevations for the site to prepare for the groundwork. Yes, it's early for that, but it allowed me to get my mind around the task that will most certainly come in a month or two. "In general", I have a 12" pitch in the raw ground front to back, relatively evenly across the slope, so it's not going to be complicated to move things around to get level before putting a "whole bunch" of stone down, leveling and compacting. The goal is to get things such that fine tuning things on the inside prior to concrete will be "less work" than doing it all afterward, especially with a smaller building like this with access challenged to bring in a lot of stone after the fact.

This morning, the project coordinator for the building company stopped by to examine the site and we had a good conversation. He was a younger guy who spends a LOT of time on the road doing what he does after a building contract is signed...a recent Penn State grad so we had that to talk about, too. :)

I may change the overhead door to an 8' tall unit as I realized that if I use the Big Orange Power Tool to bring materials and tools in/out, the ROPS will not clear a 7' tall door frame and I do not like putting the ROPS down for safety reasons, especially when moving weight around. I'm not overly fond of even having an overhead door on the building, but it's the best choice for the access necessary from time to time and eliminates the time needed to build some kind of larger doors myself.

[Paul F Franklin]

Following along with interest Jim. At my stage in life, I'll likely not build a freestanding shop, or even move again, but it's fun to follow those that are. A few random thoughts: Would you consider a roll up door? I imagine they are a little more expensive than typical doors, but they don't require any tracks or allowance for the door in the up position, other than the small housing above the door. The cheap ones are probably ugly, but I'll bet there are nicer ones are out there.

What are the soil conditions....if you had trees removed, you have organic material in the ground that really should be removed before placing stone and the concrete to avoid voids later. I think generally the concrete guys recommend scraping off any top soil or other organic stuff before spreading the stone. Maybe that's overkill for a home shop. Also, if there is access to get the dump truck back there, those drivers are usually pretty darn good at spreading the load to minimize your work to spread, level, and compact it.

[Jim Becker]

Paul, the issue with a roll up door is sealing and insulation. Those are standard on the metal buildings but if you've ever used a rental storage unit, you'll know just how much "fun" they can be. A really, really good roll up door that would sell well and carry a reasonable insulation value would likely be uber-expensive.

The soil has a lot of clay. The organics will come off before leveling as per normal for that kind of operation. They will be used for backfill and grading after the project is complete. It's not really overkill...it's kinda required. Once that work is done, about 15 ton of stone will be applied, leveled and compacted prior to the build. And yes, the truck will have to back into the area. I'm actually hoping that the demolition of the house next door gets "delayed" because that driveway wraps around the back of the structure and goes right to our fence. Bringing the stone in that way will mean less lawn damage. But timing is everything. I will not have the stamped plans for the building for another couple weeks or so. I need those to do the permit application. So I'm a month and a half or maybe two months before I can do the groundwork. If I can't bring the stone in from the adjoining property's access, it will have to come on the other side on the same path that the building components will be delivered via a Moffett forklift. The ground is softer so I can see some major repair work needed. I may bite the bullet and rent a bunch of protective pads to spread the weight. They are about $17 a day apiece and I'd need about, oh...a dozen or more...oy!

[Jim Becker]

I did change the overhead door from an 8x7 to an 8x8 to insure I had the headroom to use my Kubota for material handling should I want to once the floor is poured. It was a whole $250 difference and a no-brainer. One thing I will likely do is paint that door the same color as the wall steel (which matches the vinyl on the house) so there isn't this big, huge door thing to catch the eye so much. The man-door will be hunter green like the house door.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

I did change the overhead door from an 8x7 to an 8x8 to insure I had the headroom to use my Kubota for material handling should I want to once the floor is poured. It was a whole $250 difference and a no-brainer. One thing I will likely do is paint that door the same color as the wall steel (which matches the vinyl on the house) so there isn't this big, huge door thing to catch the eye so much. The man-door will be hunter green like the house door.

Why not build your own doors? sounds like you're gonna be waiting on plans and permits for a coupla weeks.... 2-4x8s should be an ez build. My son put some roll up doors in his new shop and 2 of them blew out of their tracks when we had some very strong wind. His homemade doors held up great.
...I have 2 roll ups here in the back of my studio and the front door is homemade12'x12' with a couple glass transoms.

477207 477208 477209

skin the metal door frame withe same wall panels you're using, light weight and ez to open!! btw don't take anything I say too seriously...I think I might be high on cold meds...:)

[Jim Becker]

Lawrence, I considered building the doors, but it comes down to time and effort. And I'd not ever be comfortable building doors before having the structure to put them in nor to I have enough space in the temporary shop to do the build or a place to store them for months. Given I have to build out the whole interior as it is...so it's a "pick your battles" decision. I'm not in any way worried about the quality of the doors the builder will be using, especially in this area.

BTW, that front door on your studio looks great!!!!!

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Lawrence, I considered building the doors, but it comes down to time and effort. And I'd not ever be comfortable building doors before having the structure to put them in nor to I have enough space in the temporary shop to do the build or a place to store them for months. Given I have to build out the whole interior as it is...so it's a "pick your battles" decision. I'm not in any way worried about the quality of the doors the builder will be using, especially in this area.

BTW, that front door on your studio looks great!!!!!


:) "pick your battles"...I like it!

[Jim Becker]

:) "pick your battles"...I like it!
It really does come down to that when you're one 65 years young person who intends to do a substantial amount of work to bring the project to the end. I'm taking on the ground prep and the interior including all but the base electric service. I just don't have the "troops" to do the doors, too. :) :D

[Lawrence Duckworth]

It really does come down to that when you're one 65 years young person who intends to do a substantial amount of work to bring the project to the end. I'm taking on the ground prep and the interior including all but the base electric service. I just don't have the "troops" to do the doors, too. :) :D


whoa.. ???? you look so young in your photo. 65 and gonna tackle all that. My hats off to you Sir!

[Jim Becker]

I was younger in that photo. LOL Late 40s/early 50s I think based on when I think it was taken at Gettysburg.

477260

[Lawrence Duckworth]

fair enough.. this is me a week ago....477261

[Alan Lightstone]

Lawrence, I considered building the doors, but it comes down to time and effort. And I'd not ever be comfortable building doors before having the structure to put them in nor to I have enough space in the temporary shop to do the build or a place to store them for months. Given I have to build out the whole interior as it is...so it's a "pick your battles" decision. I'm not in any way worried about the quality of the doors the builder will be using, especially in this area.

BTW, that front door on your studio looks great!!!!!

I agree. Beautiful entrance, Lawrence.

[Jim Becker]

fair enough.. this is me a week ago....477261

I'll raise you a few follicles... :D

477274

[Lawrence Duckworth]

I agree. Beautiful entrance, Lawrence.

Thanks Alan. I like the way a traditional door seals out the weather. I have a couple roll ups in the back and when the wind blows they leak and rattle.... gets annoying quick. so far the best solution is turning up the music volume :)

[Jim Becker]

That's my main beef with roll up or even overhead doors. It takes some effort to get an overhead door truly sealed and that's nearly impossible with a roll-up. A traditional door is clearly easier for those tasks. I do plan on working very hard to get my overhead door configured to minimize any air infiltration/exfiltration. It will be rarely opened, too. Honestly, if I actually had the time and space to do it, I'd build big, insulated carriage doors like Mike Farrington did for his shop. (YouTube) They are magnificent, but nearly equivalent of "swinging walls" when it comes to conditioned space.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

It gets so hot here in the summer, cross ventilation was what I was thinking when putting 12x12 openings on opposite ends of the building. I envy the guys that can $ air condition their shop

[Walter Plummer]

Jim when I was trying to seal up my door I changed the hinges to these with springs to push the door into the weather striping. https://www.greenhingesystem.com/. They do a great job unless it get really, really windy then they can be pushed in. At the top of the door I found this top seal that adds a lot to keeping the wind out. https://www.garagedoorweatherseal.com/product/20013383/. I also upgraded the outside weather striping but that was mainly because mine was in bad shape. Definitely at least add the top seal. Keep us posted.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks, Walter...I'll check those out if I feel that I'm not getting a good seal once I have an actual building. :)

[Andrew Seemann]

I wouldn't completely rule out building doors. I did these in less than a day. They are basically hinged walls; framed with studs and sheathed in OSB on both sides. There is even a vapor barrier on the inside and Tyvek on the outside. I sized the opening so it would fit a standard 8'x9' overhead door in case the next owner wants to park a car or boat in there. It also makes it much easier to back the truck in for unloading machinery. I have a mount for an overhead hoist a few feet inside the door specifically for that.

They are actually easier to install than you would expect. I just set down some 3/4" scrap on the slab, put some boards on the inside so they couldn't tip and lifted them up in place. Then I adjusted the spacing with some 3/8 lath on the sides and put the hinges on.

For weather stripping I folded over and stapled 6 mil poly for the sides and top. I found that actual weather stripping foam made the doors too hard to close tight. The bottom have some boards with foam weather stripping that friction fit to cover the gap. The doors definitely insulate well with R19 fiberglass in them. While there is some leakage around the doors, it isn't very bad and could be reduced easily, but it serves as the draft for my stove and heater, so I have left it be:)

477367 477368 477369 477370

[Jim Becker]

I'm not concerned about the process of building doors at all; it's about time to do that vs time to complete the other things I need to do to get my shop back up and running and out of the very tight temporary space in the garage. I've made the choice to focus on the interior fit-out and let the post frame company provide the 8x8 insulated overhead door so when they leave, I have a secure structure.

[Andrew Seemann]

That where-do-you-put-your-limited-time thing is always the hard part:). It is even worse when you have everything (tools, materials, skills) except time. I quit doing my own car repairs years ago, despite a garage full of mechanic's tools. I don't even change oil or headlights anymore. I've got a good mechanic with his own shop, and I've gotten to the point where I'd rather pay him $60/hr or whatever he charges (I don't even look) than open the hood. I'd definitely rather spend an hour in the woodshop than an hour under the car any day.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I can see the appeal of having them install a premade door and not having to worry with it. I still change my own oil, but it's even easier now with my new (2013) car since the oil filter is on top, right where it's handy to grab.

[Bob Riefer]

The good news is, today's insulated overhead garage doors are pretty darn ok, and you'll have a nicely prepared opening should you ever want to take the time to build the doors in the future. Also, when I upgraded my garage door recently, I was able to sell the 10 year old previous door for 1/2 what I originally paid for it new... so if you do decide to make a change years from now, I think you'll have a lot of options.

(Lastly... when I say today's doors are pretty darn ok, I mean that I have no trouble heating/cooling my shop and the bill for the mini-split has been totally reasonable. Could it be a bit better? Sure. Of course. But, there's many other fish to fry)

[Jim Becker]

I don't think I'll have too much trouble getting a decent seal on the overhead doors, either as installed or with a little tinkering after the fact. Most of my mental focus right now is about various ways to do the interior, particularly dealing with sound abatement. I gotz idears....and lots of time to think about it. :D

[Charles Coolidge]

I don't think I'll have too much trouble getting a decent seal on the overhead doors, either as installed or with a little tinkering after the fact. Most of my mental focus right now is about various ways to do the interior, particularly dealing with sound abatement. I gotz idears....and lots of time to think about it. :D

The door discussion has been interesting. At first I agreed with you, time right. However I just thought about how many times I wished my overhead door tracks and opener where not in the way over the past years. That the shop lights were not covered by the door when opened. The constant battle with spiders, beetles flooding in and the occasional shrew sneaking in at the corners. Something to think about.

[Jim Becker]

Those are good points, Charles, and they have come to mind while I was making the decision. If I were inclined to leave the door open a lot, the impact on lighting would be a large consideration. But my purpose for the doors is for getting material in and larger projects out, outside of the initial tools getting moved in. And even if it's up, that particular area really isn't going to be a work area, for the most part. So I'm not going to worry about the tracks. Critters are certainly prone to finding their way in. 'Not going to worry about that either.

And as Bob mentioned, I can always make the decision to replace the overhead door in the future with something custom built and resell the door. It's good to have options. :)

[Doug Filo]

Jim im the post frame business I would either use perma columns or a product called post protector. I would also use laminated columns for my post. Also consider putting in 4" pvc pipe on your slab going through your floor around your building so you can get wires in and out of the building you can put a cap on ones you're not using.

[Jim Becker]

Doug, I am using laminated posts. Not using Perma Column, but doing protection. I have to balance cost vs benefit. (to me) The posts already have a lifetime warranty (and that's certainly longer than "my" lifetime", but a little extra protection is indicated because of moisture. I will likely put in some PCV prior to the pour for certain electrical needs for sure.

[Tom M King]

Any time I build any kind of shop building, there are large doors on opposite ends. When cleaning day comes, and the wind is blowing the right direction, air compressor and leaf blowers do the last bit of cleaning, with help from the wind to carry it away.

[Jim Becker]

I think that's a nice idea for a large shop, Tom. For something this small, it would take away from usable space, unfortunately. Most of the time, it will be conditioned space, too.

[Tom Bender]

One thing with doors and rain; rain blowing against a door will run down and pile up on the pavement and tend to run under in spite of the weatherstrip. if you can get your concrete finisher to slope the slab down a little starting a few inches inside, it will leak far less. Better is to have your doors on the lee side. A big awning is even betterer.

[Jim Becker]

One thing with doors and rain; rain blowing against a door will run down and pile up on the pavement and tend to run under in spite of the weatherstrip. if you can get your concrete finisher to slope the slab down a little starting a few inches inside, it will leak far less. Better is to have your doors on the lee side. A big awning is even betterer.
Already in the spec...'kinda normal around here. That's how my gara...err....temporary shop...door is setup.

[Tom Bender]

The slope is built in with a sloping garage floor but it takes a special effort to get that detail on a flat floor. In my experience with factory floors the finishers want to work up to a flat form. That's the easy answer for the architect too so getting it done is not easy. It was one of my failures in project management.

[Jim Becker]

No slope on my new shop floor! I had to live with that challenge for 23 years at the old shop...but a recessed door opening to let the bottom of the overhead door be an inch or so lower than the slab surface isn't difficult at all. That recess is mostly about keeping water from the outside from getting in.

[mark mcfarlane]

FWIW, I am very happy with my Liftmaster wall-mount direct-drive garage door opener. A little pricey and the initial installer didn't set it up correctly, but after an adjustment it has worked great for 4 years, is extremely quiet, and doesn't take up any ceiling space.

I still have the tracks to deal with at the ceiling, but not a bulky opener and drive train.

https://www.liftmaster.com/8500-wall-mount-garage-door-openers/p/8500MC

[Jim Becker]

Mark, I have a new Liftmaster jackshaft opener on the garage (temporary shop) now and it's a fine product. It's quiet, efficient and has a really good deadbolt lock. It's also WiFi enabled and tied into my RING alarm system dashboard. I would NEVER ever buy a "regular" opener after having worked with this great jackshaft product!

However, I honestly do not intend to put an electric opener on the big door for the new shop building as it will not be opened regularly once I'm moved in and raising an 8' door by hand is easy with a well-adjusted door. I got rid of the opener on the one garage bay at the old house and even with the old, heavy, wooden door, it was very easy to open. I can't justify the $800+ expense for an electric opener for this application, especially with the higher costs for other materials at the present time. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future. Who knows?

[Tom Bender]

Good decision on the manual door. Best to have the handles only at the bottom. It's important to build a stretching exercise into your shop.

[Alan Lightstone]

Mark, I have a new Liftmaster jackshaft opener on the garage (temporary shop) now and it's a fine product. It's quiet, efficient and has a really good deadbolt lock. It's also WiFi enabled and tied into my RING alarm system dashboard. I would NEVER ever buy a "regular" opener after having worked with this great jackshaft product!

However, I honestly do not intend to put an electric opener on the big door for the new shop building as it will not be opened regularly once I'm moved in and raising an 8' door by hand is easy with a well-adjusted door. I got rid of the opener on the one garage bay at the old house and even with the old, heavy, wooden door, it was very easy to open. I can't justify the $800+ expense for an electric opener for this application, especially with the higher costs for other materials at the present time. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future. Who knows?

+1. I had one at the old house, and it was great. Plus the battery backups in case of power outage came in handy a few times. Unfortunately the new house doesn't have one. When supply/demand changes in the future, it may be a good choice again.

[Jim Becker]

+1. I had one at the old house, and it was great. Plus the battery backups in case of power outage came in handy a few times. Unfortunately the new house doesn't have one. When supply/demand changes in the future, it may be a good choice again.
The circa 1993 (literally) Craftsman door lift in this house (one year ownership milestone this last Saturday!) died last summer. The local company I worked with recommended the jackshaft version to go with the otherwise excellent insulated 16' door already in place and I'm thankful for that. It was about $200 more, but completely eliminated all that clutter in the center of the ceiling, which in the case of my "temporary shop" left the path open for my duct work. They also thoroughly adjusted and lubricated the door and it's nearly silent when going up and down. Eye openingly silent.

[Eugene Dixon]

Planning on installing one of those on the house garage as soon as I can get the shaft above the door. Replacing a Wayne Dalton system which doesn't not work well with summer temperatures.

[Jim Becker]

Worth the investment, Eugene. I was so surprised the first time I pushed that button! The creaky old thang at the old house on the one garage door was so bad I was actually happy when it died and I could just raise and lower the door manually. LOL The old Craftsman here was probably a really good system...in 1993, but it wasn't any good in 2021. I'm thankful that the door here was already a nice jackshaft setup for the springy-thingies. :)

[Jim Becker]

Today's milestone was receiving the engineer-sealed plans in the mailbox...as well as a PDF version via email. This really does make it seem a lot more real now. :) Everything on the plans was to my specification and the only adjustments I'm making is a request to use one-piece panels on the gable ends and to lower the window between the man-door and the overhead door so it doesn't look awkward. I don't need that window to be up high in that particular place between the doors.

478195 478196

I'm hoping that my electrician can come out tomorrow or Thursday so we can finalize a plan for getting power to the building as I need that determination to submit my permit application "real soon now".

[James Cheever]

Looks great, Jim, I'm jealous of your "above ground" shop. Can't wait to see your layout.

[Adam Herman]

Today's milestone was receiving the engineer-sealed plans in the mailbox...as well as a PDF version via email. This really does make it seem a lot more real now. :) Everything on the plans was to my specification and the only adjustments I'm making is a request to use one-piece panels on the gable ends and to lower the window between the man-door and the overhead door so it doesn't look awkward. I don't need that window to be up high in that particular place between the doors.

I'm hoping that my electrician can come out tomorrow or Thursday so we can finalize a plan for getting power to the building as I need that determination to submit my permit application "real soon now".

Nice! I'm still waiting on permits. :mad: hopefully yours go smoothly.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

It's good to see your progress, Jim!

[Leigh Betsch]

Time to get diesel for the Kubota!

[Jim Becker]

Time to get diesel for the Kubota!
Fortunately, I have 6 gallons available that was purchased last summer. :) And the tank on the machine is at least half full. I'm sure I'll need more, however, as there's some hard work to do. My toothbar should be in this week so I'll be getting that installed so I'm ready to go. Even so, I'll break things up with the backhoe where I have to do the cutout so I'm not depending on just the loader. Small machines require thinking through the exercise.

[Zachary Hoyt]

The plans look nice, and I hope the electrical part won't be too hard to get nailed down so you can get started. I'll be especially interested to see the pictures when the dirt work begins, it sounds like fun.

[Jim Becker]

I have about a 12"-15" existing slope front to back to level, Zachary. After stripping the grass and thin layer of topsoil, I'll cut in at the top to the approximate average height and move that material toward the back as fill. My rotary laser will help keep track of things. Once I have the area "pretty darn level", it will be compacted and then 4-6" of compactable stone will be distributed, leveled and compacted in preparation for the building folks to do their thing. The prepared area will be approximately 2' wider than the final footprint of the building. My goal is to have things as level and regular as possible so they can get the grade boards very close to the surface of the stone all around. I don't want to have to do much fill inside before the concrete work because access to the site by big trucks is not an easy thing to do and even harder once a building is up.

[Adam Herman]

what tooth bar did you go with?

[Jim Becker]

what tooth bar did you go with?
The Piranha from BXtended (https://www.bxpanded.com/piranha-toothbar). These folks make some great accessories for smaller tractors that are very functional and reasonably priced. USA-made (to order in most cases) This particular toothbar cuts nicely while still offering "cleaner" use of the bucket since nothing sticks down from the bottom of the bucket like with many other formats. It will also cut roots a bit...the edge is "sharp" compared to other toothbar formats.

478266

I may also opt for their trenching bucket for the backhoe as it's less expensive than renting an actual trencher for a single day around here...

[Kris Cook]

I have about a 12"-15" existing slope front to back to level, Zachary. After stripping the grass and thin layer of topsoil, I'll cut in at the top to the approximate average height and move that material toward the back as fill. My rotary laser will help keep track of things. Once I have the area "pretty darn level", it will be compacted and then 4-6" of compactable stone will be distributed, leveled and compacted in preparation for the building folks to do their thing. The prepared area will be approximately 2' wider than the final footprint of the building. My goal is to have things as level and regular as possible so they can get the grade boards very close to the surface of the stone all around. I don't want to have to do much fill inside before the concrete work because access to the site by big trucks is not an easy thing to do and even harder once a building is up.

Jim - I haven't visited the site much lately to catch up on threads so forgive me if this has been discussed.

I can't remember what the footprint of your shop will be but cutting down the high side and using as fill on the low side may not be the best idea. You likely would be better off to waste that material elsewhere or set aside to use around the edge of your foundation if that is an option.

If you have a proctor for the material and are having the relative density tested with a nuke gauge then it should be fine. If not, the risk of settlement may outweigh the cost savings of not using a spec material to build your foundation upon.

Just something to think about from someone that plays in the dirt for a living.

Regards,

Kris

[Jim Becker]

I was just having a conversation about that with my contractor neighbor, Kris. Literally about 20 minutes ago. LOL. I appreciate that you bring it up, too. The decision will be made once I take a bite into the earth. I may very well have to remove more material and add more base. Fortunately, it's a bit easier with this kind of structure as the ground under the floor is not supporting any part of the building. It does need to be stable, but it's only supporting a floating floor with the risk being only to that floor. My neighbor...named Chris by coincidence...will help with that when the time comes and he has over 45 years of custom building experience including running "big Tonka toys" to move dirt around. He'll also take any excess soil for fill on the property next door that he's about to demo since it wasn't savable.

[Jim Becker]

As an update, the official Permit and Zoning applications along with all required supporting documents were submitted this morning to the jurisdiction. Everything was able to be submitted electronically. And now we wait... :) :D

The quote from the electrician was about what I expected it would be...like within two bucks. The plan is to increase the service to the house to 400 amps from the provider and split after the meter, but before the generator transfer switch. House gets its current 200 amps and the shop also gets 200 amps. This is essentially identical to the setup at the old property and was my preferred choice. It keeps power on a single meter and a single bill.

[Adam Herman]

good luck Jim! a feverish pace! My permit finally got unstacked from the bottom of someone's desk and was sent to the builder. now he is 2 weeks out. hopefully by June 1 I will have my shell up. submitted February 8th.

[Jim Becker]

Happy you're moving along, Adam. I'm hoping the process doesn't take too long here...the engineering firm that does the deed has been pretty efficient in previous projects, but this is a bigger one. Fortunately, there's only the post frame structure and the basic electrical service involved here. I'm hoping for June/July for the build. (Which feels like an eon away...)

[Jim Becker]

I have to start at least visualizing how I might use this space because there are certainly a few electrical things that are dependent on location because they are dedicated. So I took a few minutes today to construct a basic model of the space and reached back into my file archives to a SketchUp design I did for the old shop back in like 2008 to scarf some of the tool components I had created. I also did a basic swag for my CNC machine for which I did not have an existing model. Note that stuff is not placed in any particular spot at this point...'just assembling the things needed to play with options/ideas. And yes, the DC and compressor (the latter not shown) will be in a sound deadened closet, location to be determined. What this initial cut does show is the position and sizes of the doors and windows in this nominal 24x36x10 space.

479202

I will also add that some additional tree work happened this past week which will provide easier access to the back yard in the future for getting materials to the shop. I'm still patiently waiting for my permit and hopefully it will be approved "expeditiously" as I have a relatively short window for use of the driveway behind the derelict house next door...once the demolition happens in a couple of weeks, Chris, the owner, will also be ripping out the old driveway to prepare to put the lot up for sale. That path for stone trucks can substantially reduce damage to our lawn during the ground prep.

[mark mcfarlane]

Jim, fwiw when I designed my DC closet I grossly underestimated the amount of return air needed. I have a 5HP Oneida DC with one 12" flex duct return snaked in the ceiling to reduce noise. I end up keeping the closet door open to get the DC to breathe properly. Venting outside would be ideal for air volume, except my shop is sealed with foam insulation (tight space) and heated and cooled.

I also foam insulated the enclosure which makes adding return ducts in the interior closet walls 'problematic'.

Anyway, something to think through.

[Leigh Betsch]

I know your actual tool layout isn't reflected in your model yet but one thing I think could have improved my new shop addition is:
I have my garage access door like you off center on the gable end. If I would have located the 10" garage door on the centerline I could have rotated my slider (and yours per your model) so that when I need to cross cut 8' sheets the wagon support table could have stroked within the garage door opening with the door open. And with the door closed I could have kept the saw close to that side and still cross cut probably 6' pieces. The trick for me would have been to locate the slider 90 degrees to your layout and position it so the stroke fits within the shop width and then locate the garage door to accommodate the wagon side table. With the slider retracted it would still allow good access thru the garage door. I don't think I would actually have to put my garage door on the centerline but a few feet closer would have worked out better for me. But that's a lot of "thinking ahead".

[glenn bradley]

At first I was wondering why the DC was so far from the slider. I then realized that the ping-pong table was a CNC :D. You are lucky in that you already have a slider-to-wall-position use case from your old shop. I also had the right side of my tablesaw as a no-man's-land long enough that I work without the need for that space. This gave me an ideal location for my DC and power drop and it has worked out well. Our past work flows really tell us the things that worked and the things that did not. I went a bit overboard on a few items that were in the "did not" column. I felt a little selfish and excessive at the time. After working in the shop for awhile I am sooo glad I was a little selfish. Things that seem like little extravagances at the time turn out to be the things that make time in the shop a joy. I won't be building another shop so I am glad I pushed forward on this one.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, venting outside isn't going to happen because this will be conditioned space, but yes, I'll be doing careful calculations to insure the return air is appropriate for whatever DC system I end up choosing, likely Oneida 3 or 5 hp system. I will likely do the sound reduction the same way I did in the old shop, filling the walls with insulation and then capping with rought-side-out pegboard on the inside.

Leigh, I considered the big door location carefully. The building folks actually default them to center line. For more than one reason, the 8x8 door was best located offset to that side because of the property layout and future access. I do not intend to have it open much and the tools will not actually be near it if things go as I expect them to end up. It will also be a better view from the house once the big door is painted the same as the building walls so it "disappears". The slider in the drawing is the "big" one I used to own. I'll likely have a short stroke this time around as it more than meets my needs.]

Glann, as noted, no tools have been positioned in this initial image. My intent, however, is to figure out how to best position the big tools for both workflow and to keep the duct network as small and short as possible. That's both for performance and for cost since I'm doing clamp-together duct.

[Jim Becker]

More mental gymnastics around potentially how to arrange things "in general". Note, I took the slider out of the picture for the moment as the model is for the larger machine I used to own and the new one will be a short stroke with a little smaller footprint. The PCS from the temporary shop is filling in for the moment. One thing is clear and that's the need for in-floor electrical because doing two "islands" is going to result in the most efficient arrangement. I want to keep the space near the big door open because it will be the finishing area with a knock down "booth" setup if things go the way I'm thinking. Keeping the majority of dust makers closer to the DC is also a goal to reduce cost for duct work.

479370

No word on the permit yet...at two weeks today.

[Lisa Starr]

Jim. I like the layout you just posted. I find "zones" like you show to work well.

[Jim Becker]

Jim. I like the layout you just posted. I find "zones" like you show to work well.

Yea, I'm somewhat comfortable with the idea...I could not do this at the old shop, but here, with a wide open space, I can better accommodate grouping for efficient power and dust collection networks as well as retain space. I'm not someone fond of lining the walls with things. While under floor power has a certain appeal, it does lock me into specific areas for those islands, whereas a properly done overhead drop is more flexible over time for, um...remodeling...which we all know happens from time to time.

[glenn bradley]

Looks like you are dialing it in. The shop machine layout probably got more mental percolation than any other part of my shop. I already had a vertical pathway defined by the dust collection duct work. I ran my electrical over head as opposed to in the floor. So far I have been happy with this.

479419479418479420

Your BS, JP, and DS island could use a center drop duct as shown in the last pic above. The challenge there was positioning the gates so they were easily reachable :D.

479421

I left everything loose so I could swivel things around with the machines in place. Once I was happy I fastened and sealed everything. So far, so good.

[Jim Becker]

TIME TO BREAK GROUND for the new shop building. My permit is approved and I just have to pick it up (and pay for it) when it physically reaches the Borough office from the engineering firm that does the building/zoning work for the jurisdiction.

The timing is good as Chris, a contractor neighbor who owns what is now a lot next door with the demolition of the building yesterday and today, will have a trackhoe here in the next week and needs fill to clean things up after the demolition folks are all done. He's going to help dig out the area for my shop with the larger machine in exchange for the excess material and my help next door which will mean a easier job for my "big orange power tool". Getting this all done now is earlier than physically necessary because I suspect scheduling with the builder will put things easily into late July at this point due to the wait for the engineered plans followed by three and a half weeks for the permit, but when there's a big machine available, I'm going to take advantage.

[Adam Herman]

congrats Jim. nice a quick.

[Jim Becker]

I can now say that I have officially broken ground for this project...this afternoon, as a matter of fact. It was hotter than "that place" out today, but I was getting bored staying in the AC and watching videos, so I fired up the Big Orange Power Tool and started moving some dirt. I'm going to be restoring the hydraulic pressure a bit when one more thing I need arrives and that should help with the job, too...after about 20 years, the pressure relief valve needs some shims to get things back to where they need to be.

479987

[Steve Jenkins]

Congrats Jim. Bet it feels good to get started.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks, Steve. The downside is that I'm going to be staring at a flat stone rectangle for several months... LOL

[Frank Pratt]

I'm sure you'll manage :)

[Lisa Starr]

Progress!!!! I'm sure it feels good to be starting the build, even if it just a baby step for now. Congrats.

[Adam Herman]

we finally have started today as well! drilling holes for the poles, but will have to wait on concrete till Friday and framing will start Monday.

[Jim Becker]

Pretty much thought I had the excavation job done today, but my contractor neighbor suggested I take the whole thing down about a foot to be sure all the organics are gone, particularly because we have very poor drainage in this neighborhood. He has 45 years of building and excavation experience (he was running a big machine next door today while I was doing my thing) and pretty much said that a few hundred dollars of more stone will not hurt...plus he offered me for free all the modified stone that was under the paved driveway next door that being peeled back and disposed of for recycling. So I'll be back on the Big Orange Power Tool tomorrow taking the rest of the material out. It's all being used for fill next door now that the house is completely gone. That big pile in the first photo is what I've removed and moved over there...so far. The big machine shows scale.

480054

480055

480056

480057

BTW, with a small machine like my BX-22, this work is too much to do with just the FEL (loader bucket). Breaking things up with the backhoe first makes life so much easier. Big machines can do this all very fast, but a little machine is still capable of the work if one is patient and works things in ways that provide the best advantage.

Adam, that's very exciting! Sadly, I suspect my actual build will not happen until late July or early August...still waiting on scheduling. My drilling will also get done a day or three prior to the build because there's a required inspection. That way, when the crew arrives to do their thing, they can get the whole structure up and finished, from their point of view, in a day and a half to two days. Post frame structures like this go up extremely fast!

[Jim Becker]

I am going to have to wait a few days before I resume digging the rest of the material out...last night's and today's rain made things "not good" for digging and moving material. Even the folks who did the demolition next doors said "see you need week" for their last day of final cleanup. Meanwhile, the Project Coordinator wrote me to day to find out if I had any blackout dates and to see if my site prep was "done" yet...the latter took me aback considering the permit wasn't approved until late last week. Fingers crossed that his question is a good omen relative to scheduling.

[Jack Frederick]

I installed five of these receiver hitches in the floor of my shop. Four in a rectangular pattern and one in line with the OH door. Five have proven to be to many, but the in-line with the door has been handy and I’ve used the pair on the other side. I had laid them out to be in-line but things get interesting during a pour so they are not quite in line. I welded up the insert shown in the photo for both to bring them in line. I then installed a couple angle brackets in the ceiling plumb off the fabricated brackets. I have a few sticks of Unistrut I attach vertically and a couple to attach horizontally. I have used it mostly on welding projects for fence panel frames. I can have it up in about 15 min and down in less. It has been good not having to walk around the table on panels, being able to stand up and work on them easily in the position I choose.

[Jim Becker]

I'm done with excavating out the organics. In different conditions, I would not have gone this far, but there is a lot of wet in the ground here and having more compacted stone that's down to the subsoil is long term a better situation, even though the floor would likely be fine anyway. There will be geotextile between the soil and the compacted stone, too, other than in the specific areas where the builder will drill for the posts. I do have to deal with a hydraulic leak before I order in the stone...I discovered it while working today and fed the machine a couple times to finish up, but I can't not attend to it at this point.

Since I have a small machine, it was most efficient when removing material to break it up with the backhoe first...bucket curl is mighty powerful!

480189

End result...yes, it's deeper at the back end, but that's what was necessary to clear the soil that needed to be gone for a good base.

480190

I'm very grateful that all this topsoil will be able to be used nextdoor as the lot is prepared to be put up for sale now that the derelict house is gone, gone, gone...

480191

[Jim Becker]

I installed the geotextile on Sunday, calculated the post positions and removed the fabric from where the auger will be drilling. This required a little manual layout, but was accurate enough for the purpose. The builder will be advised to put the front, right post "here" and layout the remainder from there exactly one foot off the easement boundary. Today, I need to do elevations to calculate the stone required. It will be a lot more than I would have preferred but I do believe the excavation will have a good long term benefit.

480282 480283 480284 480285

[Bob Riefer]

Looks great Jim! Perhaps a stake at each post location before laying stone down would be helpful. The geotextile material is awesome stuff, very tough and long lasting. Long after the sting of than the extra stone & expense, I think you'll rest easy knowing the prep work you've done for the base of your building.

[Jim Becker]

Looks great Jim! Perhaps a stake at each post location before laying stone down would be helpful. The geotextile material is awesome stuff, very tough and long lasting. Long after the sting of than the extra stone & expense, I think you'll rest easy knowing the prep work you've done for the base of your building.

This particular fabric is heavier, made to go under driveways...and at 13' wide, it was perfect for a 25' wide hole in only two pieces. Unfortunately, I needed to buy two "portions" because they were only 60' long, but it will not go to waste as it will go under a small apron and whatever walkway between the shop and house gets put in place. Much better and heavier than typical "landscape" cloth. Not terribly expensive, either.

I'm not worried about staking the post positions as the builder has to plot them precisely. By giving them that one in the front corner, it insures they do their layout consistent with my soft-layout of the space.

-----

In other news, I had a friend who's currently in the insulation business quote my "beloved" closed cell spray foam. Eek...I don't think it's going to happen. Before the "friends and family" consideration, the insulation was going to cost just shy of two grand less than the entire flipping building. Unfortunately, the petroleum/chemical industry has taken a major hit. I may need to do a ceiling after all...

[james manutes]

Check "flash and batt" , it would be somewhat cheaper .

[Adam Herman]

best laid plans and all that. we had considered lots of "upgrades" like in floor heat and spray foam, but alas, the cost of the building itself is 50% more than we originally thought so going for bare bones. we are doing the standard plastic backed fiberglass. and will put in a ceiling later on and insulate that as well.

[Jim Becker]

Check "flash and batt" , it would be somewhat cheaper .

Yes, it would...I'm very familiar with the technique. With closed cell foam at about $1.80 a 'board foot', even with only a 1" flash layer, it's going to be thousands of dollars and doesn't solve the "up top" problem with me leaving the structure open, unfortunately. It's likely I"m going to have to do a ceiling with blown-in fiberglass with R19 unfaced "wide batt post frame specific" material in the walls with a polyethylene vapor barrier to be affordable. That means more work for sound mitigation, but it's still going to be substantially less by a magnitude than what I would prefer. Life is that way sometimes. ;)

On a brighter note, lumber futures continue to fall which should hopefully help with my interior fit-out.

-----

Took my first stone delivery today...recycled concrete which was less expensive than "regular" modified stone and really compacts well. My calculations anticipated I'd need a total of just over 50 ton, but it's more likely I'll need about 60 ton to have a little left over for "stuff". At 23 ton a load, that's three loads. And bringing it in via the still-existing driveway next door was awesome as the driver could pull in forward and then do a K-turn to get the stone across our back lawn to "the spot". (sorry about the lighting...I picked an unfortunate angle for the photo) At the back end, running doing elevations, there will be about 28" of compacted fill with about 12" above grade.

480318 480319

[Sal Cangialosi]

I was forced to go with closed cell spray foam in the roof. I switched from an unconditioned to a conditioned space which changed the code requirement. I couldn't meet code and maintain the ceiling height I wanted without the spray foam. I could have 'delayed' install of hvac; but ultimately resigned myself to what was/is a shocking cost vs batt.

[Jim Becker]

In my house, I would have gladly chosen the spray foam "despite" the cost. Actually did that at the previous property when our large addition went up. For my shop...I gotta have money for other things, too, so we'll just have to see how things work out. I do plan on other quotes, too, "just in case".
---

Better photo of what the first 23 ton of stone ended up doing. Not enough. LOL I still have bare geotextile up top, but this layer is a triangular section that's about 16" at the back/deep end feathering to next to nothing up at the front/top.

480343

[Jim Becker]

Holy tons of stone, Batman!! I'm up to 69 ton and need at least one more 23 ton full load to finish the base! Today, I moved around 46 ton...and the Big Orange Power Tool did it effortlessly, albeit in, um...small bites...compared to the typical skid steer. :) :D I rented a compactor and clearly, I'm going to need it longer than just a day. At any rate, things are moving along. I "may" have the base complete with one more day of working, but the weather has to cooperate.

Pictures from today...

480454

This is about how much higher I need to build up the back/bottom end. Sheesh.
480455

480456

At the end of the day...I'm out of stone, but am pleased with the results so-far. Once I have that upper deck fine-tuned, I'll be able to use it as a reference to do the rest with two more layers. I may or may not need more stone after that if I decide to raise it a few more inches for groundwater reasons.

480457

[Adam Herman]

I hired a guy to do my pad, and it did not turn out very level. I will have to get more structural fill. you can see the sill board down the side and the foot of fill I need at the back. would you call the guy back to finish the job? it was not cheap. hopefully the main contractor will help out with it, as it was his recommended guy to do the pad. anyhow. a progress picture to give you something to look forward to.

480469

[Jim Becker]

That's a bummer that your ground person did a poor job. I'm a rank amature and I'm so far within an inch with just over half the area now at-grade. I took another delivery of stone this morning and honestly, I'm already guessing I'm going to need a fifth load, although there will be plenty left over from that one for related projects. At $466 with tax per load, it's adding up, but still thousands less than I would have had to pay someone else. The Big Orange Power Tool is working really, really well, particularly with the rejuvenation of the pressure relief valve the other day...it's lifting and moving like a champ!

Sadly, this has turned into a "hurry up and wait" situation as I got the projected schedule this morning in an email from the assigned project manager with the builder. Despite two folks emailing me last week to inquire if my site was ready, she indicated that the second week of September is when things will happen at this point and that could also change. No matter, I really did need to do this ground prep now while I had access via the property next door for the big, heavy trucks. That's going to go away in a week or two. So I'll be staring at the pad for a few months while I find some other mischief around the house to do while waiting. :) :D

[Adam Herman]

this is the way. :D

The advantage of having the pad complete is that the longer it sets now, the more stable it will be with the building upon it.

[Jim Becker]

I agree, Adam. The pad is going to be rock hard by September for sure! Honestly, it's already impressively hard after compaction of multiple layers.

Speaking of the pad...it's essentially complete. 115 ton of recycled concrete modified stone plus about 5 ton I scarfed from next door. I have about 10 ton of that 115 left and available for additional needs and repairing things when the folks drilling post holes mess it up. LOL Why so much stone? Excavation of about 16" of organics. That meant a total of about 28" of thickness at the back and about 16" at the front. I have some minor work to do to improve the flat/level from about a current up to 1.5" shallow in spots but will do that manually in the coming days after I move the pile of remaining stone to a more convenient place. I may also cut out and put in stone for a small apron at the big door and for a walkway in front of the man-door in my copious free time.

Last load! (of...five)

480499 480500

Don't be fooled by the surface looking "rough" in the photos...it's not, but the newly applied stone is darker until it dries out.

480501 480502 480503

I have to say that I'm extremely pleased by the performance of the Big Orange Power Tool (BX-22). Yea, it's a sub-compact TLB and it was purchased new in 2001. But darn, it works hard and was lifting full buckets of that heavy modified stone mix after I did that little rejuvenation of the hydraulic pressure relief valve a few days ago by adding some shims. (multiple videos on the 'Tube show how to accomplish this with aging and/or small tractors) Darn...that little orange thing just moved, leveled and helped to compact 100 tons of stone! (Additional compaction was done by a rented plate compactor)

Other than the little detail things I'll do that's mentioned above, I may also grab back some of my extracted topsoil to feather and further stabilize the raised end of the pad. It's not like I don't have time to do it. LOL

[Tom Bender]

Jim
Have you included an egress window? It's probably not required as this may not be an 'occupied space' but with the number of hours you will be there it makes sense. Then you would need to keep it clear of obstacles. Also it might be good to have a window somewhere near the back corner just for the light and view. Of course this could be added later after the shop layout settles.

[Bob Riefer]

I may have missed it earlier - since you're building up the grade considerably, have you gone well past the actual building footprint before tapering back down to prevailing grade? (i.e., how are you ensuring the built up portion won't 'unbuild' itself)

[Jim Becker]

Jim
Have you included an egress window? It's probably not required as this may not be an 'occupied space' but with the number of hours you will be there it makes sense. Then you would need to keep it clear of obstacles. Also it might be good to have a window somewhere near the back corner just for the light and view. Of course this could be added later after the shop layout settles.

Not necessary or required. There are windows and two doors. I did consider a door toward the back, but rulled it out because the space is so small. The actual windows are sash windows so if I really, really had to exit via one of them, I would fit.


I may have missed it earlier - since you're building up the grade considerably, have you gone well past the actual building footprint before tapering back down to prevailing grade? (i.e., how are you ensuring the built up portion won't 'unbuild' itself)

Yes, the compacted base extends beyond the building foot print. I would have liked to go further than I did, but I'd then run afoul of county stormwater management planning due to disturbed square footage which would raise my cost by thousands of dollars for formal engineering, etc. The built-up areas are about to be backfilled "as we speak"...that work starts today, weather permitting. I'm not really worried in that respect. My largest concern will be that the skid steer that will be used for the drilling in September will damage my nearly perfectly flat and level, compact pad. LOL

[Adam Herman]

My largest concern will be that the skid steer that will be used for the drilling in September will damage my nearly perfectly flat and level, compact pad. LOL

the skid steer on our pad made a bit of a mess, but because it was well compacted it only took a few min for the operator to back drag the loose stuff off the top.

[Jim Becker]

the skid steer on our pad made a bit of a mess, but because it was well compacted it only took a few min for the operator to back drag the loose stuff off the top.

Yea, I'm sure I'm obsessing, but I'm sorta "proud" of how well the pad turned out, given I've never done that kind of project before! LOL

[Jim Becker]

Today was cleanup and backfill day...and it went well. I first moved the remaining modified stone pile to a more convenient storage location (instead of in the middle of the lawn) and used the small amount of remaining stone on the ground to start the backfill in the deepest areas while also scraping off/cleaning what's supposed to be lawn surface. From there, it was bringing many, many buckets of soil back from the pile I created on the property next door to complete the backfill and contouring work. Multiple compacted layers were used to build up the deepest areas at the back and "south" side of the pad. Raking and cleanup of root debris, etc, completed the task and I'm very pleased with the result.

480671 480672 480673

Had I actually thought of it, I would have picked up straw mulch and seed yesterday and the whole grass restoration thing could have been completed today, too. That will likely have to wait until Monday because rain is in the forecast for tomorrow. Yes, the grass will likely get messed up in September when the building goes up, but it can't be left bare for so long.

[Bob Riefer]

Really fits in nicely especially with the feathering of the soil that you did. Looks like it was always meant to be there!

[Jim Becker]

Really fits in nicely especially with the feathering of the soil that you did. Looks like it was always meant to be there!

Thanks, Bob. I'm actually really pleased as I was worried that the "hump" at the back would be super noticeable but in reality, it contoured out nicely and in a way that's not going to hamper maintaining grass. I do not intend to put in garden beds along the sides and back of the building because I don't want to have to maintain them. I may do a narrow stone border to eliminate any need to trim grass right up to the structure, but other than than, grass it is. I so wish I would have gotten this seeded yesterday as todays rain (as you'll know from looking out your windows) would have made for a nice start.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Jim, I would definitely do a border, stone or even a 4x4. I wouldn’t want to scrape the paint on the metal siding and potentially start a rust issue.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I would definitely do a border, stone or even a 4x4. I wouldn’t want to scrape the paint on the metal siding and potentially start a rust issue.
Yes, the pan is for about 12" of stone edging the grass around the perimeter which coincidentally matches the soffit width. That's a long way off (unfortunately...) right now. LOL

[Adam Herman]

your dirt work looks top notch Jim!

[Jim Becker]

Thanks, Adam!

I'm sure it will get messed up when the builder comes to drill for the posts...LOL Nature of the beast.

[derek labian]

How exciting Jim! It looks like your having quiet the fun time :)

[Jim Becker]

How exciting Jim! It looks like your having quiet the fun time :)

So far, yes...but now we enter the "hurry up and wait" period until mid-September unless by some stroke of luck there is a "cancellation" that allows the schedule to move up. That's not likely and a slip is the bigger risk.

[Zachary Hoyt]

It looks very nice, good for you. I suppose by September the ground will have had some time to settle, so that may be a good aspect of waiting.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, there is likely to be a little bit of additional settling, even though it was built in layers which were individually compacted with both the weight of the Big Orange Power Tool and a very heavy vibratory plate compactor. It is, however, pretty darn hard so far, even after the very heavy rain we just had the other day. Here's what the property next door looked like after that morning rain...I ended up putting in some trenches for Chris, the owner, to get that newly minted pond to empty so things would dry out faster. He needs more fill brought in and no way are big trucks going to do that if the ground isn't hard-dry. (This is the route my five stone trucks came in and that pile of topsoil far-right was out of "my hole"...some was put back as backfill in the previous photos)

481190

[Jim Becker]

Building a shop isn't just about the building...it's about some of the in-built systems, too. In that respect, I made a decision relative to dust collection that surprised me a little since it was different than I expected. Historically, I've had Oneida cyclones right from the year 2000. Three of them if you count the SDD I'm currently using in the temporary shop. I've been uber happy with the company and the products, although I'll admit the SDD with the Delta 1.5hp isn't what I'm used to. But this time around, after a lot of thought, I've chosen the Harvey Gyro-Air. There are several reasons that entered into this including sound level, compactness vs performance and finally cost. The lower sound level means I can eschew building a sound-reduced room for the unit which lowers my interior build-out cost and takes less usable space away. It's small enough I can keep it closer to the tools with some careful workflow arrangement (not much different than has already been contemplated) which in turn reduces ductwork length and cost. The icing on the cake was the sale price. It would have been less a year ago, but still...total cost of the unit with lift-gate shipping and tax is just a bit more than half what I likely would have spent with my current vendor. Folks actually using the unit have been impressed but also straight about the little things they would have preferred to be different...and I can live with those things.

Since I bought it now for the sale price, I'm actually going to instal it in the temp shop. The space is available and running a sorta-kinda-temporary dedicated circuit for it will be fast and easy as I already have the materials available.

----

Other thoughts and planning have been going on, too, including how I'll likely handle the ceiling given spray foam is unfortunately out of the question at the present time due to elevated costs and some consideration around multiple ways to do certain things which will influence some tool and workstation choices. I might as well think about these things now since it beats staring at the nice flat stone pad where the building will eventually go. LOL

[derek labian]

But this time around, after a lot of thought, I've chosen the Harvey Gyro-Air.

Congratulations. I also bought a Gyro-Air over a an Oneida and it's been great.

[Jim Becker]

Congratulations. I also bought a Gyro-Air over a an Oneida and it's been great.
I'm glad to hear that, Derek. I'm looking forward to "something different" here. The reviews have been good and I like the way then engineered things. Relative to this, I took care of putting in a circuit in the temporary shop so I can plug it in and use it there since realistically, it will be late fall before I likely will have the new shop building to the point that I can actually use it as a shop, even informally. The front, right corner where I have the current SDD setup has the space to slip the G700 into without causing a problem for the J/P and I'll just use a short hose to temporarily connect it to the existing 5" duct I have in the space. The unit has already been passed to the carrier so it just has to make its way to the east coast for delivery.

[Adam Herman]

a little inspiration, just need concrete! and they ordered the doors without windows and have to switch out a panel on each once it arrives. 482643

[Jim Becker]

That looks really nice, Adam! Congrats! It's a good color choice, too...one I would enjoy for sure. Here, in a suburban neighborhood, it was best to match the house so the nod went to taupe with beige trim and a bronze roof. The big overhead door will get painted taupe to "disappear" while the man-door will get hunter green to match the house's front door. Gutters will match the trim color...'had to pay extra for that.

[Adam Herman]

That looks really nice, Adam! Congrats! It's a good color choice, too...one I would enjoy for sure. Here, in a suburban neighborhood, it was best to match the house so the nod went to taupe with beige trim and a bronze roof. The big overhead door will get painted taupe to "disappear" while the man-door will get hunter green to match the house's front door. Gutters will match the trim color...'had to pay extra for that.

thanks. we are planning on matching the house and other buildings to this color scheme also. right now its all 90s brown shades. this green blends in nice to the landscape here.

[Jim Becker]

That will be really nice, Adam. At our old property, when we put up the addition, we chose a darker green/brown cement siding for both the addition and the rest of the house where it wasn't stone. The shop building got painted the same color. What was really great was how well it just blended into the landscape and property and given it was a large home structure, it made it more pleasing by not seeming so large. The house is lighter in color here, but it's also less than half the size.

[Jim Becker]

Along the same lines of purchasing the new dust collection system now because of a good sale price, I just ordered a new slider to replace the one I sold last summer to another 'Creeker in lieu of paying store it and move it twice. The lead time for the slider puts delivery after the building is up and has a floor, so that will work just fine. I opted for the SC3C as it has everything I'm used to, including compatibility with fixtures I previously made for the S315WS, but with a slightly shorter stroke. I've truly missed having the slider since I moved into the temporary shop...the cabinet saw works but I find it so limiting, especially for crosscutting things that are more than "x" inches wide. Using the track saw is an effective alternative, but I don't have the space to keep my MFT set up for convenient use and while the bare track is absolutely as accurate as I can measure and place it, repeatability is easier with the MFT setup. It's a dance, in other words. At any rate, I'm looking forward to being able to get back to the methods and workflow I'm used to and enjoy.