Need a tip to finesse some dovetails.

[Scott Winners]

This is the tightest I have ever made my tails, aka smallest pins ever in my shop. The gap between the tails is 1/8 inch at the apex, about 5/16 inch at the base, and I need to clean up the side walls of the tails with either a tool I don't have, a string of profanity I have never strung together before, or some wisdom. Hoping for wisdom. Thanks in advance.

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[Mel Fulks]

You are not using a saw ?

[Scott Winners]

You are not using a saw ?

I cut them with a dovetail saw, but I am in the habit of paring the tenon rather than the mortise as it were. The pic is a drawer side. The drawer front has half blind pins. Now that I have the half blind pins also cut, (in beech) I am planning/ accustomed/ don't know any better than to look to pare tails in the poplar as pictured.

Attached is a mostly finished drawer/ bin for the same project. There is a third drawer/bin to do as well, and paring between those tails is a time sink. I am using wider spacing between the tails at the drawer back so I can get in there with the tools I have.

I could maybe cut 6 million more tails. I could sharpen my dovetail saw. I could maybe set the teeth in my DT saw, but right now I just want this project done with whatever cludge it takes. I have been in that tiny gap with a drywall knife. That worked, but it didn't work good. I thought about gluing some sand paper to a popsicle stick, but poplar is kinda stringy. It seems to me I can either A) find a paring chisel with a blade thickness at or less than 1/8 inch, or B) ask for help. So I am asking.

I don't need these joints pretty enough to go in the Smithsonian, but I do want them tight enough to last the rest of my life. I am using fish glue from Lee Valley so whatever unfortunate descendent can keep the grain matched drawer fronts intact when s/he has to redo the drawer sides and backs.
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[Mel Fulks]

I worked for an old guy who wanted every step done a certain way. I’ve seen some guys claim that the way they have been doing
them is the only way they can work. Only thing I can suggest is hold the handle under the work ,and put a vertical stick or string in your
sight line , behind the work. Sometimes the top is perfect, but bottom is not.

[Derek Cohen]

This is the tightest I have ever made my tails, aka smallest pins ever in my shop. The gap between the tails is 1/8 inch at the apex, about 5/16 inch at the base, and I need to clean up the side walls of the tails with either a tool I don't have, a string of profanity I have never strung together before, or some wisdom. Hoping for wisdom. Thanks in advance.

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Scott, what I see in the cut tail are bruises edges at the baseline. The chisel you have used is not fitting into the corner(s).

There is no chisel on Earth that would work your intended method on these dovetails ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable9_html_m3df4d95f.jpg

I do not clean up sidewalls of tails. I saw them and then remove the waste. This (hopefully) leave clean walls.

Saw tails ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UnderbenchCabinet14_html_m40034d98.jpg

Remove most of the waste with a fretsaw ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UnderbenchCabinet14_html_3ce118e1.jpg

Pair to the baseline with the appropriate chisel. Below, just cleaning up ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_mc112204.jpg

You can modify your chisels for minimal lands this way: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/JapaneseOireNomi.html

(I cannot post photos as FWW mag plan to publish this. They okayed the website link).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My suggestion was going to be a thin file before you mentioned the stringiness issue. Fingernail files are usually diamond files.

Another thing that came to mind is if tails are done first, my procedure is to get them set first, square and clean and all. Then mark the tails and no more adjusting the tails after that.

This sounds like a situation that might make you want to make your own special purpose tool. A chisel can be made from a piece of old saw blade or some other things.

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

I'm just thinking out loud here, but what if you used a plane iron?

If you took the chip breaker off you essentially have a wide thin chisel. Not sure if that is even thin enough to get in there, but it would be thinner than most chisels I have seen.

Edit: thinking out loud again, but the iron might have to come from a block plane. Most of my block planes have thinner irons than a bench plane.

[Derek Cohen]

I do not understand why some here keep banging on about a "chisel" to repair a damaged tail. The problem lies in poor clearing of the waste from the tail. Do this better using the correct chisel - one which fits the socket at the baseline, not at the apex. No one trims tails like that.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Buresh]

It appears I plucked a nerve here.

I am not a master with a dovetail saw like others here, and occasionally I will have a sidewall of a tail that needs minor tweaking. I was only suggesting that a plane blade may be able to sneak in to the gap where a regular chisel won't.

I agree with you though that the OP has a bigger issue with how the waste was cleared at the baseline than trimming a side wall.

[Jim Koepke]

I do not understand why some here keep banging on about a "chisel" to repair a damaged tail. The problem lies in poor clearing of the waste from the tail. Do this better using the correct chisel - one which fits the socket at the baseline, not at the apex. No one trims tails like that.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Good Morning Derek, many here are inspired by your woodworking skills. You have experience, abilities and natural talents that make many of us aspire to those heights.

In my case my reason for cutting tails first has been explained in my posts of at least two box builds:


Over the years my dovetails have improved considerably. Today I had a dovetail epiphany as to why cutting tails first works better for me. Cutting square vertically is usually easy for me. Cutting square across is a bit more of a challenge. So cutting the tails first allows me to correct any out of square cuts before marking the pins.

A box built from firewood > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750


This little square has really helped to improve my dovetails. If the face of a tail is found out of square it is marked on the high side. A slightly out of square face will get a light single line at the edge. A bit more out of square will get a heavier line or two lines and so on. The out of square faces are then pared to square.


A Two tier box to hold files > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?286634

When one of my projects experiences dovetails that fit right off the saw without having out of square tails, you can bet good money it will be posted here.

jtk

[Robert Engel]

If necessary I pare the pins, I never touch the tails that's a recipe for disaster. The key to getting a tight corner on a tail is a chisel with a low side bevel height (land). That requires some looking or modifying. Narex premiums and Lie Nielsen are good in this regard. The oval Ashley Iles appear to be made for this work.

Bottom line you shouldn't have to do much. Dovetails = 88% sawing skill, 12% chiselling skill.

My skills certainly don't even come close to most here, I learned to do dovetails from Frank Klausz who is a diehard "pin first" man. Over the years I most frequently do tails first, mainly b/c I can gang up 2 or more sides and cut them at once. And truthfully, when I have a lot to do, I use the table saw method I learned from Steve Latta (Mike Pekovitch also demonstrates).

But occasionally I "run home to mama" and do pins first.

[James Pallas]

Scott, Sometimes an Xacto to comes in handy for these chores. They are inexpensive and have many blade profiles. I use the one pictured for trimming thin tails and pins. I have several sizes. This particular blade is about .015 thick. You can grind if need be. Being woodworkers we can make them sharper than they come to take see thru shavings. Sometimes a less than 1 dollar blade beats a $100 dollar chisel.
Jim

[Jack Dover]

I don't see anything on your tails that would require paring. Of course lines could have been crispier, but it doesn't really matter here.

If you have them cut too fat I would suggest paring pins. If you still want to clean the tails side you could try sandpaper on a steel ruler or on a scraper, just be careful not to round it up, you might get a convex face there. A file would work too, it's just you'll be cleaning it every 30s or so.

I personally would try resisting temptation to pare - there's no line to pare to. But if you insist, then start at the bottom of a tail and work it upwards. At some point a chisel wouldn't fit, so get a wider chisel, maybe grind a lower, longer bevel and try paring at a skew. You should be able to get almost all the way through working from both sides except maybe a tiny little triangle which you could clean in some other way.

I do dovetails where spacing is less than my smallest chisel all the time. Initially had exactly this problem, so for the time being was using the smallest chisel as a layout spacer. Later, when my sawing has improved, I started making really slender pins, but walls are okay, paring only to the baseline these days.

[John C Cox]

If you're worried about "stringy wood" but have a little bump you need to massage... Don't let the sanding stick touch the show faces, if possible, until the very very last bit of fitting.

Honestly, sometimes stringy wood lets you "cheat" a bit, as it will kinda mush in, hiding the gap...

Option, once again, mind your show faces and undercut the "body" ever so slightly so it assembles clean and tightens up at the very end. It's a cheat... but sometimes it's better to cheat a little than to leave an ugly boo boo.

[steven c newman]

I just use a coping saw...
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Like a rasp....

Others will use a thin paring chisel. Leave the board laying just like it is...and slice straight down

I did take an old "beater" chisel...used to be 1/4" width...and grind the lands until the profile is a triangle ...

[Scott Winners]

Appreciate the input. I am not seeing a multiquote option.

Derek, there is indeed a bruise on the pictured baseline. I see the picture doesn't show it well, but the sidewall of the tail was janky. Like the teeth are unevenly set on the DT saw. They were set good when my Veritas DT saw was new, I have put many many dovetails into my woodstove this winter so there is no evidence for later. COnfident my DT saw needs to be sharpened and set. I did switch to my 3/16" chisel for ongoing baseline paring, that one has enough taper to the lands to not bruise.

Jim, for the next joint cut tonight, I did exactly that. I cut as well as I could with my DT saw, then used (thank you Jason) the bare iron out of a #3 Bailey to smooth up the janky cut walls on the tails BEFORE marking the pin cuts using the tails as a guide. Appreciate your kind supportive input as always.

For the next one tomorrow I will try to leave the layout line with the saw and then pare to it with the unfettered plane iron. My wife is getting antsy about all the items on the top of the chest freezer that need to be in the drawers I am making.

Intuitively I think Robert is correct that dovetails are 88% sawing skill and 12% chisel skill. I spent two years of free time, perhaps 200 hours shop time, learning to make mortise and tenon joints. It was having to (forcing myself to) pare to fit after sawing that brought my sawing game up to speed. Having MT joints fit off the saw takes confidence and experience, makes perfect sense to me that dovetails are the same.

One thing I did notice tonight is my kerfing chisel is not exactly the same width as my DT saw kerf. ( sound effect) First thing I did was pare the extra left behind by the kerfing chisel off the pin walls and I was halfway done with the chisels.

I think James' idea about a custom ground Xacto blade has merit. I don't have one to fool with, but it is a keeper idea.

Thank you Jack. I may need to upgrade my coping saw also. I got it out for the first set of tails, but it would have been like trying to use a bulldozer to clean out a moderate sized horse stall, too clunky for the job.

John, thanks for the idea.

It is clear to me, with all y'alls input and looking over my process and results I need to practice a LOT more, and set or at least check the set on my DT saw. In the interests of short term domestic tranquility I am instead going to saw on the waste side of the line, pare tails to my knife marks with a #3 Bailey iron, then mark the pins, pare off the kerfing chisel waste on the pin walls and get this thing done. Besides spousal consternation I am up against the time pressure of season change, the melt is starting here and daily humidity swings are impressive.

Thanks again everybody.

[Charles Guest]

In the fullness of time, you may very well want to settle in with a lower tooth count DT saw. In the meantime, a high tooth count gent's saw -- 18+ is much less sensitive to problems with the set of the teeth. If something looks amiss, it's probably not the saw's fault. At thirty to thirty five bucks each, you might just want to buy a new one when it gets dull. You can make scratch stocks out of the old one(s) for frugality's sake. You can sharpen them however, but the teeth are mighty small. Long story short-- you need one less problem to diagnose then solve, i.e. a honked up sharpening/setting job. That stuff can come later, or not at all. Your choice.

I'd lose the coping saw. They're notorious for imparting bruises as you make the turn across the baseline. Just chop out the waste. You don't need two saws to worry about. You're already having enough trouble with your dovetail saw.

Less is more. Simplify.

[John C Cox]

One thing that helped the accuracy of my saw cutting immensely was to level the board front to back and side to side so that the cut is either vertical or horizontal prior to cutting. I line my body up so the natural motion of my arm is as close to straight in/out as possible. Then, I like to cut as close to straight up/down as possible. That first pass of the saw is critical to setting the cut correctly, and then let the saw cut.. Never "push" or "pull" or try to horse it into alignment, just glide the saw through the wood, back and forth. I figure "minimum resistance" means it's as centered in the cut as it will go. If I do my part to keep everything aligned, and the saw is sharp and properly set, it will follow the line.

Things go awry when the saw is dull or the set is off. Then, they go squirrelly, barrel, wander, stick, and generally cause havoc. If you're having a saw problem, fix that first.

[steven c newman]

Saws like this one can be found about anywhere...
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This is a Disston No. 68.....is filed Rip, and only has 9ppi....right now it is cutting Oak and Ash....

An expensive guide for the saw? My left thumb does a nice enough job....thumbnail at the line, maybe set the knuckle against the side of the saw. Once I am 1/2 down into the cut, the kerf is the guide, all I then worry about is not going deep enough, or...too deep....I usually try to stop just a hair short of the line..

For the tasks I do....this is how I saw the parts. Whether you do tails or pins first....you then use them to mark out the Pins/tails on the mating piece...And cut on the waste side of the layout lines, trying to leave the lines....as it usually makes for a tighter joint...plus, you can pare away excess wood more easily than add wood back in...

One last tip: S L O W D O W N! take your time.

[Jim Koepke]

Appreciate the input. I am not seeing a multiquote option.

[heavily edited]

For the next one tomorrow I will try to leave the layout line with the saw and then pare to it with the unfettered plane iron.

Thanks again everybody.

Down in the lower right corner:

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Click on the little Balloon + symbol for each post to be included in the MultiQuote. Then on the last post to be included click on Reply With Quote.

Here is something to remember to help step up your dovetail production. Saw to the line. Not sure if my first hearing of this was a Frank Klaus video or what. With the first part of dovetail cutting it isn't as important to saw perfectly to the line or through the line. If the kerf is fairly straight, smooth and square to the face of the piece it will be fine. A minimum of paring is all that is needed. If it isn't perfect, that is okay. The pins will be cut to match the tails if one is cutting tails first. If cutting pins first, the tails will be marked to match the pins.

[Tony Shea]

Don't touch your tails. If paring is needed please just pare the pins. I personally don't think paring is good practice but I used to do it before I was confident enough to saw to the line. Blue masking tape really helps with seeing the line. But again, I only touched the pins not the tails.

As Derek noted, you should be much more careful with the baseline paring and avoid bumping into the show surfaces. You also need to avoid taking large cuts once you are on your baseline scribe, your chisel will most certainly be pushed back past your baseline causing even more issues.

[Prashun Patel]

Are you sure you need to pare the walls? The errors are usually at the corners or base line. A 1/8” chisel should be able to get across the base.

If not grind the lands off a beater.

[Scott Winners]

I am pretty sure my DT saw was dull. I am about to get out to my shop to find out.

The irony is I have a new binocular magnifier and a new to me sawset in their shipping boxes, and the drawers I am building are to hold my saw sharpening supplies. I was wanting to get the drawers done and then move the items from the packing boxes into their drawers. Instead I got the magnifier out and started looking around. My shop has not been this messy since I had multiple children at home.

I ended up getting up early this morning and sharpened my DT saw. The test cuts before I left for the office this morning were promising, about to find out.

EDIT: Yup. DT expert I am not, but having the saw sharp sure does help. Appreciate all the inputs along the way. Man those teeth are little.

[Richard Hutchings]

Yeah, I'm in no hurry to start sharpening my set of Veritas carcass and dovetails saws. I bought the set of files as well and built a saw vise. I think I'm ready but I'll practice on something else first. Those teeth are small, yikes.

[Jim Koepke]

Yeah, I'm in no hurry to start sharpening my set of Veritas carcass and dovetails saws. I bought the set of files as well and built a saw vise. I think I'm ready but I'll practice on something else first. Those teeth are small, yikes.

This is helpful when filing small teeth > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/home/office/magnifiers/110117-led-headband-magnifier?item=99W9732

Looks to be an item that will not be available when current stock is gone.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I am pretty sure my DT saw was dull. I am about to get out to my shop to find out.

The irony is I have a new binocular magnifier and a new to me sawset in their shipping boxes, and the drawers I am building are to hold my saw sharpening supplies. I was wanting to get the drawers done and then move the items from the packing boxes into their drawers. Instead I got the magnifier out and started looking around. My shop has not been this messy since I had multiple children at home.

I ended up getting up early this morning and sharpened my DT saw. The test cuts before I left for the office this morning were promising, about to find out.

EDIT: Yup. DT expert I am not, but having the saw sharp sure does help. Appreciate all the inputs along the way. Man those teeth are little.

Scott, I have just posted a tutorial on sharpening. Hope it is easy to follow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Hutchings]

Scott, I have just posted a tutorial on sharpening. Hope it is easy to follow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I just went looking for that tutorial and couldn't find it.

[Derek Cohen]

Richard, you are not looking very hard. :)

Hint: below this thread ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Hutchings]

What??475356

[Richard Hutchings]

I was looking on your website. Then I was looking at the bottom of this thread. I then found it on the Australian Woodworking forum and now I found it on another thread here. I found it :-)