House Electric Utility Woes ($$$)

[Todd Burch]

My electric bills are killing me. With my electric provider, I signed up for "balanced billing" so my payment would be the same every month to make it more manageable. I've been in this house for just over 4 years, and they keep going up and going up.

In my last house, 22 miles from here, 2300 SF, 1 story, 1 A/C unit (4.5 tons), my bill reached $250 one month in the summer (100 degrees a lot that month) and I blew a gasket with my wife ("TURN DOWN THE A/C!!"). Usually, in the summer, the bill was around $200. In the winter, $80 was typical.

In this house, 3600 SF, 2 story, 2 A/C units, my December bill was $241 - 3 times higher than what I paid in the previous house for the same time of year. A/C was barely run in the month. We don't cook at home that much either. My high bill this last summer was $750.

I keep lights off when not in rooms. TV is off all day. I can not figue out why my bills are so high. We use natural gas for heat and clothes drying (and yes, that went up too - $40 in November and $150 in December... ouch). I was doing full time woodworking in 2002 and 2003, but since then, I've hardly turned a machine on. We've cut out pool down to run only 6 hours a day, but the cost still seems like it is going up and up.

What do you think are any reasons that my use is so high? What could cause use to appear (on my meter) higher than it actually is?

Electrically Stumped. Todd

[Chuck Wintle]

My electric bills are killing me. With my electric provider, I signed up for "balanced billing" so my payment would be the same every month to make it more manageable. I've been in this house for just over 4 years, and they keep going up and going up.

In my last house, 22 miles from here, 2300 SF, 1 story, 1 A/C unit (4.5 tons), my bill reached $250 one month in the summer (100 degrees a lot that month) and I blew a gasket with my wife ("TURN DOWN THE A/C!!"). Usually, in the summer, the bill was around $200. In the winter, $80 was typical.

In this house, 3600 SF, 2 story, 2 A/C units, my December bill was $241 - 3 times higher than what I paid in the previous house for the same time of year. A/C was barely run in the month. We don't cook at home that much either. My high bill this last summer was $750.

I keep lights off when not in rooms. TV is off all day. I can not figue out why my bills are so high. We use natural gas for heat and clothes drying (and yes, that went up too - $40 in November and $150 in December... ouch). I was doing full time woodworking in 2002 and 2003, but since then, I've hardly turned a machine on. We've cut out pool down to run only 6 hours a day, but the cost still seems like it is going up and up.

What do you think are any reasons that my use is so high? What could cause use to appear (on my meter) higher than it actually is?

Electrically Stumped. Todd
what is your kilowatt/hr rate? How does the utility company check the meter? Do they send a person around or is it one of those meters that they can check remotely?
I know energy rates are climbing everywhere.

[Matt Meiser]

Todd, look at useage, not cost to determine whether you are actually using more energy. If your usage is going up, even with trying to cut usage, contact your power company. I've heard of meters being bad, resulting in low readings and would assume that the same could be true the other way. You could also aquire a clamp-on ammeter and take some measurements to find out what is drawing power. Some of these can actually record so you could see if circuits are drawing power when you don't expect--i.e. maybe your pool heater or AC?

[Travis Porter]

Hot water? Incandescent light bulbs? Windows letting out a lot of heat as they are getting older?

[Lee Schierer]

Ask your electric supplier about an off peak meter. If you can shift your useage to off peak hours, most electric companies will give you a break on the rate. They install a special off peak meter and it tracks your useage. Usually every evening after 8 until 8 in the morning is off peak and so are all weekends. You automatically have 65% of your useage off peak for the A/c season.

We have an all electric house here in NW PA and we have off peak, our balance billing is $120 per month. Our house is about 1700 square feet, not counting the basement which is heated to 60 degrees. We don't have any other utility bills nor do I have to cut wood or haul ashes.

You might want to take a look in your attic. If you new house doesn't have at least 12" of insulation then your electricity is going right out the roof.

[Carl Eyman]

As Matt said keep track of usage. killowatt hours. That way you can tell better if your conservation efforts are bearing fruit. Our electric rates (per kw-hr) in LA have gone up almost double since last year at this time. We were at abour $0.07 last year and last month it was $0.135. It's all in the fuel adjustment , of course. You might look into a heat pump. I did, but my place is so small it wouldn't pay off. It's a lot cheaper to pump heat into the ground which is about 70*F all year round here than into 100* air. A golfing buddy who is in the heating & a/c business was praising the new a/c systems that have very high CEERs (efficiency ratings) when used with heat pumps.

[Steven Wilson]

In addition to the excelent advise you have received so far make sure your electronics are turned off and not just on standby. If you have a couple of computers, home entertainment system, projection TV, etc. they will consume power when on standby, they really need to be off (or unplugged) if you want to reduce power consumption. If, after all the checks you do you can't find out where the power is going you may want to cycle through your breaker box turning off breakers and monitoring your meter. If your main breaker is off your meter shouldn't be turning !

[Eddie Watkins]

My electric bill nearly doubled for nearly the same usage this year over last. One thing to take into consideration is this has been an unusually warm winter for parts of North America. In OKlahoma City, the weatherman mentioned last night that we were on track to break a record for the warmest January. The record was set in 1923. You being farther south could have been even warmer and you may be using the A/C some. Years ago, I got a calendar and read my meter and logged it every day for a while so I could monitor what was the cause of my utility usage. By logging and monitoring the activities and temperature that corresponded to the high usage days it helped me figure out some things to watch. You might check for extension cords coming from your neighbor's house. I read of a guy finding an extension cord from his neighbor's house plugged into his plug not too long ago. Really.

[JayStPeter]

I know this is kind of obvious, but have you had anyone look at your AC compressors? One of them may not be operating correctly and running too much. I had a slow leak in one of mine in my old house. The freon would leak out a little over a period of a few years. Our bills were the telltale sign that it was time to get a fillup :cool: .

Jay

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Another thing to check is that your duct work around your furnace doesn't have leaks. Mine had a couple of major leaks. I don't know what it cost me, but I sealed them up! :)

[Richard Gillespie]

You mentioned that you have gas heat but I missed what you are heating your water with. If it is electric, that is a very expensive method. If you have a long run from the heater to say a kitchen you may want to consider adding a small heater in the kitchen to get instant hot water. You don't have to run so much water to get hot for the kitchen. In addition to that, check your toilets. I found one in my house hooked up to the hot water lines. That could have cost me but I found it while the house was under construction. I was the general contractor and fired that plumber who went bankrupt shortly thereafter.

[Martin Shupe]

Todd,

I feel your pain, really, I do...

TXU asked for and got a 28% increase in rates effective Jan 1, I believe.

I am all electricity, no gas, 3000 sq ft house, with 2 AC units. My average bill was around 275-300, until the last one, which was over $400. I looked at it and determined that my usage was not up, the price per kilo watt was up.

So...I told my wife to get the kids to turn off the lights if they are not in the room, and we used to leave the computer on at night, now we turn it off.

I have a neighbor with one of those ground water circulator things, (geothermal heat pump?). His bill is typically $100 less than mine. I didn't know they existed when I built the house, but it will be on my next house.

[Scott Donley]

Not sure if you have a shop heater or not, I have a 220 electric in mine and as soon as I turn it on it seems my bill X2's. I will say I will trade you bills, winter bills, 100 a mo. for electric, 200 a mo. for gas. 2000 sq. ft. house. Has gone up an avg. of 22% in the past year. Good luck !

[Scott Coffelt]

Try gas bills in Kansas, we freeze our butts off in the house and it's still over $250/mo in heating. Stupid oil industry, their killing us left and right.

[Joe Pelonio]

Sorry to tell you that turning off a few lights and computers is not going to make much difference. They just don't use that much. If you leave lights on in every room all day when no one's home it will add up, but it's the big energy suckers that make the bills that high. AC, Heat, and water were already mentioned, but a microwave also sucks it up, and probably the biggest waster of electricity is the refrigerator and freezer. Just cleaning the dust out of the coils will make a noticable difference on
your bill, and most people never think of it. If you have a gas clothes dryer a bad sensor will make it run longer, as will a partially clogged vent.

[Bob Johnson2]

You must all be wrong, I just looked up the CPI (inflation rate) and it's down .5% for Dec and it's only up 3.5% for all of 2005. You must be reading your bills wrong. I'm sure politicians wouldn't fudge the books.

[Todd Burch]

I've done some research, and here is what I've come up with.

My current rate is $0.163 per kwh. That has just about doubled from $0.084 in March 2002 (3/2002 was 5 months after I moved into this new house).

My hot water is gas. The windows are new, double pane, but not insulated. Good for sound control, but they are not energy efficient.

Last month's kwh usage was 1656 kwh, down 4kwh from the same month last year. I had my electric company email my my past bills since 2/2002. I will put them in a spread sheet later to check usage.

I did a few calculations for different applicances around the house. My radio uses 12watts. 8 hours a day, 21 days a month, it costs my about $0.33 a month. Nothing.

The lights in my study though, 14 hours a day, 3 lights, 120 watts each, 30 days a month, run over $24/month. I think I'll be looking to replace them with some compact fluorescents. That should be a short payback.

Formula = kilowatts * hours-per-day * days-per-month * kwh_rate. For calculating something like a 60w light bulb, for kilowatts, I use 60/1000.

My nice pretty porch all lit up in the evenings... 5 lights @ 120 watts each, 4 hours a day, 30 days a month - almost $12/month... humm... gotta weigh that one. $144/year? It adds up, don't it!

I'll look into getting a meter on the fridge and the A/C systems. Not sure how to estimate their usage. I'll start another thread on that.

Thanks everyone. Todd

[Jeff Cybulski]

Todd,

I have a neighbor with one of those ground water circulator things, (geothermal heat pump?). His bill is typically $100 less than mine. I didn't know they existed when I built the house, but it will be on my next house.

I live outside of Tulsa and have an all electric 3000 sq/ft and a geothermal heatpump. I'm on a Co-Op that actually buys the power from Kansas. Avg. bill is around $110 a month and that's with 220 heat in the shop and a pond pump that't been running due to the higher then normal winter temps.

The Geothermal is expensive to install ( about $15K) but if you are going to live in the house for a long time ( 10-15 years) I'm told it's the way to go in the long run.

Jeff

[David Fried]

Todd,

Don't forget those other charges. Delivery charges, etc. add almost thirty dollars to my bill. My understanding is the refridge is one of the biggest expenses since ot runs twenty-four/seven.

Dave Fried

[Frank Hagan]

What size is the pool pump? Do a cost analysis on it. AMPS x VOLTS = WATTS ... divide that by 1,000 to get your KWH used per hour, and multiply by your rate per KWH ... and that's what the pool pump is costing every hour it runs.

15 years ago, there was a trend to start installing large pumps on pools to power spa jets. Where they used to run a 1/2 or 3/4 HP pump, they switched first to having an auxilliary booster for the spa ... 2 HP or more. Then, to reduce costs, they just used the big pump for the pool circulation. 2 HP or 3 HP pumps are not uncommon.

Let's say your pump is 230V, 14.5 AMPS ... 3335 watts or 3.35 KWH. Times my rate of 8.5 cents per KWH, that pump would cost me .28 per hour to operate. Run it six hours a day, and I have 1.68 per day, or $50 a month.

The solution is to reduce the number of hours you are running the pump. The guidelines for pools say you should filter an amount of water equal to the total gallons in the pool. Calculate the gallons in your pool using the formula LENGTH x WIDTH x AVERAGE DEPTH to find the cubic feet, then multiply by 7.5 for the gallons in a cubic foot.

Find the performance curve of the pump. It will give you the GPM at various "head" ratings. Head is a resistance rating, and you can convert from PSI to head pretty easily. Take the normal, clean filter pressure and multiply by 2.31 for the head in the system at that time. For instance, 18 PSI equals about 40' of head.

On the pump curve, read across at the "foot of head" line and see what GPM your pump is putting out.

Typically, a 2 HP pool pump is capable of about 80 GPM with 2" plumbing. Most residential pools are smaller than people think ... a 12 x 20 pool that is an average of 5.5' deep is under 10,000 gallons. Divide by 80 to get the number of minutes you run the pump, and you find just over 2 hours.

Running it 3 hours saves you half of what your pool company first recommended. They may have even recommended longer run times ... 8 or 12 hours. That was very common with the smaller pumps.

Another alternative to a single large pump is to obtain a 2 speed motor. As you halve the speed of the impeller, you cut the flow to exactly half. But the amp draw is about 1/4 of that on high. You adjust the run time to the rate that filters all the water in the pool each day ... 6 hours in the example above ... and you save about half the energy cost doing the exact same job.

[Art Mulder]

I'll look into getting a meter on the fridge and the A/C systems. Not sure how to estimate their usage.


Todd,

If you kept them... check the manual/receipt/paperwork that came with your Fridge. Up here in Canada, all new major appliances come with an "EnerGuide" sticker on/inside them when new. This is a huge - 6-8" diameter - sticker, which you can't miss. On this is estimated electric usage for the appliance.

If your fridge is more than 15 years old, then from what I've read, you may want to think about replacing it.

[W Craig Wilson]

Look carefullly at a bill from your old house and one from the new. Some utilities will increase the rates based on the type of service - 100 amp vs 200. You might have moved up into a new billing neighborhood.

[Todd Burch]

Frank - this is GREAT information.

The main pump is a 2.5HP Hayward model. It is listed, for amps, as SF 13.0-11.8. I'm guessing "SF" is service factor, but I'm not sure which number to use. If I figure it's using 13AMPS, that's 220 volts * 13 AMPs, or 2.86kwh. It runs 6 hours a day, so that's about $85/month. Ouch.

Then, there is the Polaris cleaner pump too that runs 3 hours a day.

Now, on to your other info...

When I filled my pool, I calculated about 14,000 gallons. Just measuring it per your instruction, it is kidney shaped, but "squaring it off" yields roughly 30' x 15' by 4.5' avergage depth, or around 15,200 gallons.

My clean filter pressure is about 22 PSI. 22PSI * 2.31 = 50.82 "foot". Reading the chart for my motor, it says 140 GPM @ 50' head. So, 15,200 / 140 = 108 minutes. Woo-Hoo!! 2 hours baby!! I was running it at 8 hours and cut it down to 6 out of penny pinching. Now, I can cut it down to 2 hours and be comfortable with that !! I'm certain I have 2" pipe.

So, going from 6 hours a day to 2 hours a day takes me from $85/month to $29/month! WOW!! HOORAY!! Frank, I owe you lunch.

Todd

[Bob D.]

Here's a site that can help you determine if your meter's accuracy.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/kwhourscalc.html

Generic Electrical Energy Cost Calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/elecenergycalcs.html

and many more here
http://www.csgnetwork.com/constructionconverters.html

[Bob Weisner]

My current rate is $0.163 per kwh. That has just about doubled from $0.084 in March 2002 (3/2002 was 5 months after I moved into this new house). [QUOTE]




16.3 CENTS A KILOWATT??!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Have you looked into putting up a windmill or switching electric providers? Are there any Municipal Electric Utilities near you? One town about 30 miles from me has electric rates of just 3.6 cents a kilowatt!!:D

[Monte Milanuk]

Hmm.... guess I can't complain w/ a ~2.6cts / kwh utility rate... gotta love that hydro power :cool:

[Dan Connolly]

search the net for something called "kill a watt" (I think thats the right name, its a digital meter you plug into the wall plug them plug whatever (refridge, light bulb ect.) and it will read the cost of running that device for you.

[Cecil Arnold]

I think Jay hit on something. Get your A/C checked. If you are low on freon it (they) will tent to run longer to cool things off DAMHIKT and four years is about the time they start to leak, no mater what the installer says.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Might I ask who your provider is? That rate is almost as much as my CP&L business rate, which is considerably higher than the Reliant house (all electric) rate. That may be because we're still in the first year 'locked in price'...

KC

[Frank Hagan]

Frank - this is GREAT information.

The main pump is a 2.5HP Hayward model. It is listed, for amps, as SF 13.0-11.8. I'm guessing "SF" is service factor, but I'm not sure which number to use. If I figure it's using 13AMPS, that's 220 volts * 13 AMPs, or 2.86kwh. It runs 6 hours a day, so that's about $85/month. Ouch.

Then, there is the Polaris cleaner pump too that runs 3 hours a day.

Now, on to your other info...

When I filled my pool, I calculated about 14,000 gallons. Just measuring it per your instruction, it is kidney shaped, but "squaring it off" yields roughly 30' x 15' by 4.5' avergage depth, or around 15,200 gallons.

My clean filter pressure is about 22 PSI. 22PSI * 2.31 = 50.82 "foot". Reading the chart for my motor, it says 140 GPM @ 50' head. So, 15,200 / 140 = 108 minutes. Woo-Hoo!! 2 hours baby!! I was running it at 8 hours and cut it down to 6 out of penny pinching. Now, I can cut it down to 2 hours and be comfortable with that !! I'm certain I have 2" pipe.

So, going from 6 hours a day to 2 hours a day takes me from $85/month to $29/month! WOW!! HOORAY!! Frank, I owe you lunch.

Todd

Sounds familiar! I worked for Hayward for 14 years, and was their western division Technical Service Manager (I've been away from them for 8 years now).

The disadvantage to all of this is that if you reduce the filtration cycle too much, you may have an algae bloom. During winter, you can get away with much shorter filtration cycles. But you may find you have to increase the time somewhat during summer, when heat plays a role with the sanitation. What happens is that without the water in motion, you get areas in the pool where the sanitizer is not distributed, and it gets "used up". So you may get algae on the steps, or along the curve of the bottom on the side that faces south, etc. Try it at two or three hours, but check the pool each day to see if you are starting to see signs of poor filtration. When it starts warming up, you may have to increase the filtration cycle. More sunlight = more chance for algae.

The motor labeling in the pool industry is funny ... there's a lot of "marketing" going on. Your motor is almost certainly really a 2 HP motor if it had a normal service factor of 1.3. They reduce the service factor to 1.0 and increase the HP rating. Its called "up rating" in the industry. It sounds like they have gotten more creative with the dual amp rating. Hard to tell which is the right one, unless you put an amp meter on it. The pump curve is probably pretty accurate; Hayward was always a pretty honest company in that regards (each company publishes their own pump curves, without any independent verification).

Remember to reduce your Polaris cleaner run time too; if I remember those correctly, they should only run when the main pool pump is on. If you are close to the point where it needs to be replaced, consider a "suction side" cleaner such as a Pool Vac, Kreepy Krawley or Barracuda that doesn't require a pump motor to run. I can't remember, but I think the Polaris will use a 3/4 or 1 HP motor, so you're using quite a bit of electricity to maintain your pool.

[Randy Meijer]

.....
Then, there is the Polaris cleaner pump too that runs 3 hours a day......

From some of your comments, I assume your Polaris is one that has it's own pump and control system? If you can live with a pool that is slightly less than absolutely spotless, try cutting back on the pool vac. Try twice a week for a start and do more or less depending upon the result. Do one session on Friday night so the pool will be nice and clean for the weekend and another session on Monday ot Tuesday. If you have a big wind storm and get a lot of trash in the pool, you can always flip the vac on for a few hours, manually, to handle any unusual circumstance. If you can eliminate 5-3 hour runs of a 1 HP pump motor per week, that should help, noticeably, too.

[Jim Becker]

16.3 CENTS A KILOWATT??!!!!

I just calculated out that we're paying about 13.35 cents per kiliwatt hour here in SE PA. The bast rate is .0608 per KwH, but when you add in the transistion, distribution, taxes and other charges...

We do pay an extra five bucks a month for "some percentage" of our power to come from wind sources.

[Rob Bourgeois]

I dont think I saw it in this thread but I suggest a programable thermostat. Supposedly for every 1 degree set back you can save about 1% off your a/c/heating bill. (I expect diminishing returns if you turn it off completly)

You also might be suprised that you can get away with a higher( a/c) temp with a better thermostat than the old style mercury switch type. The old style ones seem to cycle on and off more than a digital that doesnt have as quick of temperature swings. Its easier on and more effiecent for a A/C to run for less but longer cycles per hour than it is to run for the same time but more frequently.

[Stuart Johnson]

Do lights make that much of a difference? If I'm calculating properly I think they do.

First off we are charged by the KWH which I understand is 1000 watts per hour. If this isn't the case then I'm way off and you should stop reading here and let me know how it is figured.

4 60 watt bulbs x 1 hour = 240 watts used or round to 1/4 KWH
10 hours x 1/4 KWH = 2.5 KWH
2.5 KWH x 14.5 cents = 36.25 cents

Is this correct or am I missing something? If I'm correct those 4 60 watt bulbs burning an un-needed 10 hours a day will cost over $10 a month. If I' wrong don't tell my wife.

[Lee Schierer]

Todd,


I have a neighbor with one of those ground water circulator things, (geothermal heat pump?). His bill is typically $100 less than mine. I didn't know they existed when I built the house, but it will be on my next house.


We have heated our house for over 20 years with a ground water heat pump. They work quite well. That's why our electric bill is so low. We keep the house 68 day and night. Our present unit doesn't do A/C but if it gets replaced, the new one will.

[Todd Burch]

Stuart, your math is correct. These little uses add up to real dollars, especially if the rate is going to keep going up. Same 4 lights bulbs 3 years ago cost 1/2 of that.

With all these rises in fundamental services, our salaries had better start keeping up. Gasoline, Natural Gas, Electricity... What's next? Water?

[John Hemenway]

I reciently read some info about new energy usage. I was shocked how much energy is consumed by 'wall wart' power supplies, instant on electronics, sleeping computers, answering machines and fax machines. I don't have a solution as most of us would not want the hassle of pluging in wall wart just to use it's device.

$0.163/Kwh is not to extreme. For my most recient bill, we pay $0.159/Kwh on our 5 tier pricing scheme (California, PG&E).

A friend has photovoltaics (solar electric). He produces excess for the year and is considering converting appliances from gas to electric. Up front costs are steep but he has NO PG&E bill!! :) So, does the sun shine in Texas?

[Stuart Johnson]

Article in this morning's paper says by state law the gas company can skip reading the gas meter for up to six months. They estimate the usage but according to the company most are just two months. When they do read the meter they charge the current rate. Now with the way gas prices have are soaring I'm sure they are not over estimating at the lower rate. Instead they probably under estimate (don't want to overcharge the customer you know) and then catch up when the meter is read. Of course it's not their fault the rates are higher and they are just following state law when they charge the higher rate.

[Todd Burch]

You know, we need to figure something out. That "something" is how to defer our operating (living) costs to some other entity. Every business out there does it; their costs go up - it falls on us. How can we leverage this technique? Can I incorporate myself? ;)

Being at the bottom of the food chain is not a good thing.

Todd

[Steve Evans]

I reciently read some info about new energy usage. I was shocked how much energy is consumed by 'wall wart' power supplies, instant on electronics, sleeping computers, answering machines and fax machines. I don't have a solution as most of us would not want the hassle of pluging in wall wart just to use it's device.

John

I plug most of my wall warts into a power bar in my office. When I leave (and if I remember) I switch the power bar off.