Laguna bandsaw vibration leaving me out in the cold

[wayne booker]

Hi all, I've not posted here in quite some time. I have an issue I'd like to share and see if anyone has useful insight that might help me.

I just bought a new Laguna 18BX bandsaw. Problem is that from the first time turning it on it has this strong vibration that is felt on the table and more strongly in the upper assembly. Now first thought is the upper wheel is out of balance. Easy. I called Laguna support and they sent me a new wheel, no change, still vibrates like crazy. They've sent me a new upper wheel, new tires, even a new blade and none of it has changed the vibration. The last time I talked to the support guy he tells me that bandsaws just have vibrations and that's all there is to it.

I told him I was going to buy some aftermarket tires. I bought a set of Carter tires and put them on with no difference. I downloaded an vibration analysis app on my phone and used that to try to quantify the vibration so I could have some hard data to tell me when a difference is made. So far the only thing that has made it any better is de-tensioning the blade. I have it so loose that I'm almost afraid of running it. I know this isn't right. The other thing that made it a little better was taking off the huge 1 1/4" Resew King blade and put on a 3/8" blade. I have this tensioned properly and it runs a bit better with vibration but I still don't like it, I can still feel it shake on the top.

I have another call in to Laguna support three days ago and another call yesterday and all I get is a voicemail. I'm feeling left out in the cold by Laguna. A large bandsaw should not run this way, it will eventually shake itself apart.

If anyone has any helpful words, I'd really like to hear it. Thanks so much.

Wayne

[Greg Quenneville]

Did you run it without the blade? That way you would eliminate the motor/belt/bottom wheel. It may only seem like the upper wheel is the problem.

I have a 24” machine from a different maker. It doesn’t vibrate.

[wayne booker]

I did run it without the blade, very slight vibration. What I would expect, very acceptable to me. With the blade turning both wheels, bad vibration. That was why he sent me the new upper wheel.

Also I measured the concentricity at the cast iron tire channel with the tires removed with a dial indicator. I'm reading 0.005" runout. That doesn't seem like much to me. Both wheels measure the same 0.005". Both wheels measure 0.010" runout measuring from the side of the wheels, so measuring wobble. And it can be out of center but still be balanced, so I'm taking that into account too.

The tires are flat enough I think, I don't feel any high or low spots with a fingertip when I turn the wheels.

I'm starting to think he sent me a bad replacement wheel maybe. I dunno.

[George Makra]

Change the blade.

[David Publicover]

I have a 18BX that runs smoothly. Are you on a mobile base or fixed? Have you checked that the feet are all in contact with the floor properly and it’s level? What kind of floor? Did you try another drive belt? Belt or blades would be my first suspects…
You can test the wheels for balance to see if that’s the issue.
Good luck!

[Alan Lightstone]

Your goal should be that test where you put a coin on edge and it doesn't fall over when the bandsaw is running. My larger saw from a different manufacturer does this with ease.

I agree that checking the belt and blades is next. And make sure that you can't tip the bandsaw at all when it's off (to check the feet / mobile cart stability).

We know. All of this seems obvious. But something is clearly wrong here.

[Andrew Hughes]

I would like to suggest you look at the floor where the saw sits. See if you have a uneven spot. Try running the saw and prying up on one of the corner see if it runs smoother.
Good Luck

[Eric Schmid]

It seems to me, if a brand new saw is not performing properly, it is up to the manufacturer to determine the cause and provide the remedy.

Who is diagnosing the cause of the problem? It appears, from your description that Laguna does not agree there is a problem or has determined that your expectations aren’t reasonable. The first course of action is to find agreement with Laguna, or the dealer you bought it from, that there is a problem and whose responsibility it is.

Once the manufacturer has agreed there is a problem, the next question is what do they propose to solve that problem. It’s important in some situations for the manufacturer to come to this conclusion and not be lead by the customer.

It’s difficult to know from your post who is suggesting these remedies (new wheel, blade, tires). Are you suggesting them and they are complying? Or did you initially describe the problem and they suggested the remedy?

I imagine if you took a video of the saw under load (blade tensioned) and posted it here, others might be able to tell you if the vibration is reasonable. Then send it to Laguna and see if they agree.

[wayne booker]

All really good responses, thank you all for the help.

The parts that they have sent me were all decided by Laguna support. They sent me a new Laguna Resew King blade because I bought the blade with the saw. There is no difference between the two blades in vibration so I'm ruling the blade out for now.

The saw sits on my concrete garage floor. I didn't buy the mobile kit so it sits on rubber feet. They are level enough that the saw doesn't move at all when pushed from any direction.

I also asked the support guy what their criteria was for pass/fail for vibration. He said it was the nickel test on the table. I took video of this and it fails but not every time. Turn the saw on and it first likes to dance around and about 1/3 of the time it will fall over. It seems to vary depending on where on the table I put the nickel and what orientation the nickel is when it starts. The fact that it falls at all is a fail to me and support guy agrees.

I can check concentricity of the wheels but I don't know how to test the balance. There's too much resistance in the bearings I think to allow the wheel to turn by itself so a heavy spot will fall to the bottom. I tried this on the upper wheel by putting magnets on it, wheel stays put.

I don't know how to test the drive belt, it's back there and not very accessible when the wheel is on. Maybe have to remove the wheel?

I'm going to try calling Laguna again this morning, see how it goes.

Thanks all.

wayne

[Dave Roock]

It seems to me, if a brand new saw is not performing properly, it is up to the manufacturer to determine the cause and provide the remedy.

Who is diagnosing the cause of the problem? It appears, from your description that Laguna does not agree there is a problem or has determined that your expectations aren’t reasonable. The first course of action is to find agreement with Laguna, or the dealer you bought it from, that there is a problem and whose responsibility it is.

Once the manufacturer has agreed there is a problem, the next question is what do they propose to solve that problem. It’s important in some situations for the manufacturer to come to this conclusion and not be lead by the customer.

It’s difficult to know from your post who is suggesting these remedies (new wheel, blade, tires). Are you suggesting them and they are complying? Or did you initially describe the problem and they suggested the remedy?

I imagine if you took a video of the saw under load (blade tensioned) and posted it here, others might be able to tell you if the vibration is reasonable. Then send it to Laguna and see if they agree.


Excellent suggestions. Actually cutting something with it would show more info than all else.

[Tom Trees]

Should be no vibration of the lower wheel, a tight belt and severe misalignment can damage bearings in a few seconds, belts don't need be tight, especially not so when troubleshooting.
I made a video on wheel alignment and troubleshooting for an Italian bandsaw, should you look on youtube.
Basically machine plummed and wheels aligned depth wise and top wheel is scooted into centre if that adjustment is there.
After which wheels coplanar and also in line with frame using a beam and a single accurate block taped onto it
what's then used for checking both sides of the lower wheel, using the top wheel for reference, that wee block sits on the rim,
making sure the east/west adjustment is spot on.
This must be done with a stout blade installed or the top wheel goes bananas, so one can't attach the beam to the wheels as a single adjustment changes everything,
and the blade needs to keep tracking where it wants to go.
Not sayin some rare earth magnets inset into the block wouldn't be great!

Tom





That's where I would start,

[wayne booker]

That's the odd part about all this. I did resaw a board about 12" long x 6" wide and with the Resaw King blade it cut beautifully. Very smooth finish. I fully expected it to be rather rough but it wasn't. I don't know what else to look for in a cut for diagnostics but to me it looked good. I notice that the blade between the guides is being held very steady, I don't see much deflection between the guides until the power turns off and it spins down. Then I see it go through several resonant cycles of deflection.

[wayne booker]

Should be no vibration of the lower wheel, a tight belt and severe misalignment can damage bearings in a few seconds, belts don't need be tight, especially not so when troubleshooting.
I made a video on wheel alignment and troubleshooting for an Italian bandsaw, should you look on youtube.
Basically machine plummed and wheels aligned depth wise and top wheel is scooted into centre if that adjustment is there.
After which wheels coplanar and also in line with frame using a beam and a single accurate block taped onto it
what's then used for checking both sides of the lower wheel, using the top wheel for reference, that wee block sits on the rim,
making sure the east/west adjustment is spot on.
This must be done with a stout blade installed or the top wheel goes bananas, so one can't attach the beam to the wheels as a single adjustment changes everything,
and the blade needs to keep tracking where it wants to go.
Not sayin some rare earth magnets inset into the block wouldn't be great!

Tom





That's where I would start,


Tom,

Do you have a link for the video?

[Tom Trees]

Thought you might have seen it before Wayne, as I've posted this a number of times.

I only made this video, as there was no one else suggesting to do the same , apart from Marc Spagnuolo mentioning this in a passing comment.
upgraded plumbob magnetic blocks are mentioned in another video dressing tires, (I don't have the techy skills to chop these videos beyond a minute or two)

One could try using a laser but have yet to see how accurate that would be, compared to beam and rule, could do away without needing to remove table,
as no one wants to do that, and seems that most folks are just taking a chance on the machine being alright.

Tom



https://youtu.be/VQ9dmP9yF8E

[glenn bradley]

Change the blade.

He mentions that he did in his initial post.

So vibration is acceptable without the band on. You have replaced the upper wheel, both tires and the blade. If the vibration is greater with the band on and increases with tension I vote that the upper wheel mechanism, not the wheel, s a good suspect.

You have gone way past what I would. I would have returned or exchanged the machine by now. Laguna has a long history of periods of atrocious customer support divided up by short increments of really good service. You may have caught them at the wrong point in their quality biorhythm. This is why I have avoided the brand in general. Not dogging the product, just the business model :)

For contrast my Grizzly G0513X runs so smooth and so quiet since I took a few minutes to make the wheels co-planer during a belt change that I have to be careful not to walk away and leave it running. It was spooky the first time I fired it up after that effort. Still creeps me out every now and then. If a budget TaiChi bandsaw can run smooth, yours should too.

HOWEVER . . .

You mention that the cut performance is fine so I have to fal back on "what's the problem?". If the machine does what it is supposed to do I would just move on. I see a lot of folks gt hung up on a measurement or a paint job to their detriment. If the vibration is going to make the saw a problem for you, return it or exchange it. Laguna's response of "that's just how it is" is completely unacceptable IF you really need the vibration fixed. Since the saw performs well only you can decide what's important.

[wayne booker]

I really need the saw fixed because long term operation like this is going to trash the bearings of both wheels.

wayne

[Rod Sheridan]

I had this once on a saw, it was the paper wheel shaft, it was loose.

The locknuts on the shaft housing were tight, however on of the bolts wasn’t tight against the shaft, took me 6 hours to find that…Rod

[Mark Visconti]

Wayne (OP),

Were you able to resolve the issue? Please let us know how it turns out.

Mark

[Richard Coers]

Late to the party, but a couple of things were not mentioned in the troubleshooting. First you take the belt off the drive pulley and turn it on. That tests the balancing job done on the motor. Then you take off the blade and run the bottom pulley and the motor. That verifies that mass. Finally you add the blade. That tests all the rotating mass. If each time you add something extra the vibration gets worse, usually the last item added is the issue. If you don't see much different from the bottom wheel and the added top wheel, then the bottom wheel is usually the culprit. Vibration could shorten bearing life, but they should still last for years. The blade never effects the balance of the turning mass. It can be noisy if the weld was done poorly, but it does not excite the harmonics of the turning mass.

[Tom Trees]

Late to the party, but a couple of things were not mentioned in the troubleshooting. First you take the belt off the drive pulley and turn it on. That tests the balancing job done on the motor. Then you take off the blade and run the bottom pulley and the motor. That verifies that mass. Finally you add the blade. That tests all the rotating mass. If each time you add something extra the vibration gets worse, usually the last item added is the issue. If you don't see much different from the bottom wheel and the added top wheel, then the bottom wheel is usually the culprit. Vibration could shorten bearing life, but they should still last for years. The blade never effects the balance of the turning mass. It can be noisy if the weld was done poorly, but it does not excite the harmonics of the turning mass.

I could go on all day giving references to why the wheels should be aligned, obvious when you look at various wear of motor bearings, wheel hubs, bearing spacer wear.
lots of reasons why this important, and not just the case of having a box of compressed set blades which get destroyed.

Bottom line is that the top wheel and the motor must be coplanar, and on most modern machines the top wheel is not adjustable, which means it is the reference.
If the motor doesn't match up with those wheels, and it isn't adjustable, then that's fair reason for a replacement, repair, or refund, the three R's of retail, as one has statutory rights to these as a consumer.

That's not even touching on the subject of getting those wheel hubs centred, which is a separate thing specific to that machine IIRC which I haven't seen before.
I'd imagine its very obvious if those came setup non concentric .

I use a fixed block for dressing tires, but one could rig up a pen to check in some similar fashion.
Take note that tires will pull off the tip of a pen, should there be some kind of tip which is better, maybe a Parker refill, don't know, just saying cheapies and ball point bic's
it is the case.
475081


Good luck
Tom

[wayne booker]

I was on the phone with Laguna support guy yesterday. They're sending me a set of upper and lower wheels.

I had taken off my lower wheel, it has the driven pulley mounted to the back of it. Took off the pulley and it's mounted with three countersunk screws, beveled heads are what centers the pulley on the wheel. I put my dial indicator on it and it was out of center by 0.006". Not huge but not great. I tried centering it better by rotating the pulley to the next screw hole. I found that depending on the orientation of the pulley on the wheel, and which screws were in which hole, I could vary the concentricity from 0.003" to 0.025". Now that's huge. It's kind of a crap design really. At any rate, I was able to get the error down to 0.003" but it didn't make any difference in the vibration. So I'm waiting on new wheels for now.

More to come.

[Richard Coers]

Did you check runout at the outside diameter of the wheels? It makes a lot of difference when balancing a large diameter wheel vs the drive pulley. I bought a new bandsaw that had steel plates bolted on one side of the wheels and lots of holes drill on the other. It was quickly evident that the castings were horrible and nothing would stay on the table with it running. The machine was returned.

[wayne booker]

Hi guys, thanks for all of the thoughtful comments. It’s really appreciated. I have updates:
I re-engaged with Laguna support and I asked for a different tech, and got one based in Texas at the manufacturing plant. I took video before of all of the measurements I took by that time and sent it to the new guy along with my vibration analysis data. He put an upper and a lower wheel in the mail and should arrive on the 15th, a few days away.
Measuring runout on the OD of the wheels with my dial indicator shows 0.005" out of round. There are high spots and low spots on both wheels, not just off center.

One thing that is particularly interesting to me are these two observations:
1. I ran the saw with each of the two blades I have, for several minutes to see if the strength of the vibration changed over time, and it does. It gets really strong, then begins to fade and eventually all but disappears. I almost can’t feel anything at all, and it’s like that for some 15 seconds or so and then gets stronger. It cycles between high and low continuously and it takes 2 minutes and 50 seconds to make one full cycle of high and low vibration.
2. The next thing I found is this: I ran the saw to the point that the vibration was lowest, then stopped it quickly with the brake, and then I marked the top of both wheels with a sharpie. Then I ran the saw for 20 seconds and stopped it, checked the marks and found that with the top wheel mark at top center again the bottom wheel is now 120 degrees counter clockwise from top. This means the wheels are not the same diameter, and not turning at the same speed. While this by itself doesn’t mean much, I continued running it another 20 seconds and check it again. Now the bottom wheel is further CCW from where it was. Ran again, further CCW. Ran it until the vibration had gotten strongest, then faded to undetectable again and stopped it. The bottom wheel mark was now in line again with the top wheel.
What this means is that the vibration coming in cycles is a direct result of the wheels turning at different speeds. Each wheel has a small vibration by itself and at orientation 0 of the bottom wheel the vibrations between the two wheels are additive, making it stronger. At orientation 180 they cancel each other out making the vibration minimal. And, after 2 minutes and 50 seconds of running, as the bottom wheel comes around again it gets stronger until it peaks again at orientation 0.
Anyway, I’ve got to go to Arizona for a week so I’ll post an update when I get back after I can test the new wheels.
Thanks for all of the interest, and help.
Wayne

[wayne booker]

Update:
I received the new upper and lower wheels from Laguna support this week. I’ve been out of state for work so today was my first day back. I first unboxed the lower wheel, it had already been fitted with a tire but didn’t have the driven pulley on it. No problem, I had made up a jig that will hold the center hub of the bearings outside of the saw, so I can check concentricity of the driven pulley on the lower wheel with my dial indicator. I used this to mount the pulley on the wheel making sure that the concentricity error of the pulley is only about 0.003” out of center. The way this thing mounts it can easily be as much as 0.025” out of center depending on which screw is in which hole and the orientation of the pulley.

Anyway,
I put the new lower wheel on and it made the vibration better but it still came and went in cycles of intensity, but this time the cycle took 7 min 15 seconds for the bottom wheel to clock a full 360 degrees against the top wheel. This is compared to 2 min and 50 seconds for the original bottom wheel. The top wheel was a replacement that Laguna sent me a while back that didn’t fix the problem.

This was interesting but it was not a fix, so I went ahead and put on the upper wheel. This is the second replacement upper wheel Laguna support sent me, this time it came without a tire. No problem, I mounted one that they had sent me earlier. Slipped a socket extension under the tire and ran it with my drill until the wheel turned about 4 revolutions to flatten it out, making sure there were no thick or thin spots. Mounted the wheel and tensioned the blade. I then put a sharpie mark on both wheels at the top to check for bottom wheel clocking.

Turned the saw on and it now has almost no vibration. Guarding against premature excitement, I let it run for a couple of minutes. Vibration was still good over the two minutes. I shut it down and checked the bottom wheel mark. It was counter clockwise about 15-20 degrees. I did this several times and each time the bottom wheel clocked further CCW. I ran it for a total of 15 minutes, stopping to check the clocking position every couple-few minutes. At 15 minutes it had clocked to 180 degrees. The significance of this is that it is half a cycle, which means that if this was going to vibrate it would have done it by now. Remember that the full cycle on the old wheels went from strong to very weak vibration, then back to strong as the bottom wheel clocked all the way around to the starting point. I had my hand on the upper assy. the whole 15 minutes and the vibration never changed intensity, it was very low the whole time.

So as it turns out I was was right. The problem was an imbalance of BOTH the upper and lower wheels. Where each wheel caused a slight vibration that by itself was not much, but together caused a much larger vibration. And the second part of this is that the wheels had slightly different diameters that caused the bottom wheel to clock 360 degrees over 2 min and 50 seconds of running, and this is why the vibration went from strong intensity to very weak, then back to strong every 2 min and 50 seconds. As the bottom wheel clocked to 180 degrees it was canceling out the vibration of the top wheel, and when it clocked back to 0 degrees it added to the top wheel’s vibration.

Wheew! I’m exhausted but elated, and I hope all of the makes sense. Whenever I’ve explained this to my wife, daughter, or my step-mom, they all smile and nod and that’s all I get.

I now have the bandsaw that I wanted. It runs smoothly now, has tons of power, great working guides, a very strong frame, plenty of weight and stability, and loads of resaw capacity. I now fully LOVE THIS THING!!!

Thanks very much for all of your comments and suggestions, it really did help me to stay focused on finding new things to check. I also really hope that this will help someone to better understand the effects of an imbalance of both wheels on a bandsaw, and what that looks like.

Thanks very much,
wayne

[Andrew Hughes]

That’s good news.
I would like to point out different diameter wheels doesn’t seem like it should matter. I say this because my planer and table saw have different diameter pulleys. I have not noticed any weird vibrations.
Bandsaws are sometimes both mysterious and amazing. Guarded and manipulated by sorcerers from a different realm.:)

[glenn bradley]

This is wonderful Wayne. I am glad you now have a machine you will enjoy.

[Alex Zeller]

Did you try removing the belt and the blade and then spin the wheels by hand to see where they came to rest? If properly balanced they should come to rest at different spots each time. All I can come up with is that the balance was close but when the wheels went from cancelling each out to magnifying the out of balance. It doesn't take too much for something small to get amplified.

[wayne booker]

Andrew;

Different sized pulleys don't cause vibration. I mention that they were different only because the lower wheel is clocking when compared to the top wheel. This relative movement of the wheels was causing the vibration to be high intensity some times and then very low intensity, and repeating the cycle.

Alex;

I did try this, but the bearings are sealed and don't move as easy as they would have to in order for this test to work. There would have to be a fairly large weight off-balance to make the wheels move. There's just too much resistance caused by the seals.

[Richard West2]

Sorry to resurrect this, I'm based in the UK and have the same saw (received December 2021) and I'm having similar issues. The upper section of the machine is literally shaking around, I've been in contact with Laguna UK and they say that in their opinion this is acceptable and is to be expected from a machine this size. After a lot of arguing and them basically calling me an idiot who doesn't understand the machine and that I have too high an expectation (I paid around £3000 or $3900 for it) they sent me the upper wheel from the showroom saw. This made next to no difference. To my eye, the machining of the wheels is just terrible. The lower wheel's groove where the tire sits is all over the place and the upper wheel bearing bore hasn't been done straight so that when spun, it wobbles back and forth.

Upper Wheel - https://youtu.be/7u5YZukTDRM
Lower Wheel - https://youtu.be/WfuAxgkVyAI

Machine Shaking
https://youtu.be/hizwCY0p-nk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrZ4JOD6PQQ

They're now basically saying that since they sent me the replacement wheel and that they consider the machine to be in working order, the case is closed. I've spoken to the business I bought the saw from and they are taking Laguna's side (not surprising really as this results in less hassle for them). We have a consumer laws here in the UK and something called the small claims court which allows individuals to take businesses to court over disputes without the large costs of Lawyers etc. which I'm considering for my next move, just sick and tired of the whole thing, especially when you look online and see people in a different country with the same saw get a completely different support experience from the manufacturer....

[Tom Trees]

That groove on the lower wheel does look to be milled incorrectly to my eyes.
I wonder how that happened, since the wheel looks to be spinning without runout, very odd.

Can't say much for the other videos, definitely a rethink needed in order to actually show errors, as someone could be behind the machine pushing it.
i.e doesn't prove anything.
Try talking to the big cheese, that might get their attention.

BTDT before on another far eastern brand, not a nice thing to go through.
Arm yourself with knowledge, so you can cut through the bull.

Good luck getting the saw situation sorted, hope it gets addressed quickly.

[wayne booker]

Andrew,
You are exactly right, different diameter wheels don't cause vibration. What I'm saying is that when both wheels are out of balance, that diameter difference will cause the vibration to modulate intensity. It doesn't cause it, but it can modulate it.

Thanks,