Wood floors in shop revisited - from a pricing perspective

[Marty Walsh]

Ok, so I've read the various posts regarding all the benefits of a wood floor in the shop. I'm sold on the idea, am in the process of designing my new shop, and would like to include wood floors. But the question I have is cost.

Does anyone have a rough idea what the cost comparison is between a slab and a block foundation? I realize I'd have to include extra materials for the block foundation, since it would need beams and joists which aren't required with a slab.

I've also been doing some research on crawl spaces resulting from block foundations. According to what I've read, the new trend is to avoid any venting in the crawl space, opting to seal it off as well as possible. There are in fact companies that specialize in doing just that. They sell and install thick plastic liners that cover the entire floor of the crawl space, and seal around the post footings, and most of the way up the walls. This would add yet another cost factor to the block foundation solution. Is it something others have encountered, have done, have avoided?

I've read all the 'new shop' posts on here, so I thought a few of you might have already gone down this path and might be able to assist me.

So, ball park, how would the two compare?

(And before anyone suggests, I've called a few local concrete contractors but no one wants to answer the question without getting their hooks into me with details, abillity to bid the job, etc. Since I'm still in the design phase, I'd prefer not to get a bunch of contractors pestering me...yet.)

[Frank Pellow]

Have you considered a third alternative; that is piers?

I used neither a slab nor a perimeter foundation. Rather I used concrete piers leaving a small open space beneath my building. The piers are aboout 4" above the ground and the beams for my shop rest on saddles inserted into the peirs before the concrete hardened.

I would think that piers have to be cheaper than either a slab or a foundation.

[Brad Noble]

Have you considered a third alternative; that is piers?

I used neither a slab nor a perimeter foundation. Rather I used concrete piers leaving a small open space beneath my building. The peirs are aboout 4" above the ground and the beams for my shop rest on saddles inserted into the peirs before the concrete hardened.

I would think that piers have to be cheaper than either a slab or a foundation.

BINGO!! We have a winner here. That was going to be my suggestion but Frank beat me to it.

Brad

[Jim Becker]

Fourth solution...pour the slab and put your wood floor on sleepers with insulation between them. 'Best of both worlds and a warmer floor. This is likely what I would do if I were building a shop building from scratch. (I'd like to do this (sleepers) in my present shop to both get the wood floor as well as get rid of the slope...but it's not in the cards right now)

[Marty Walsh]

Have you considered a third alternative; that is piers?

I used neither a slab nor a perimeter foundation. Rather I used concrete piers leaving a small open space beneath my building. The piers are aboout 4" above the ground and the beams for my shop rest on saddles inserted into the peirs before the concrete hardened.

I would think that piers have to be cheaper than either a slab or a foundation.

Frank (and Brad),

Interesting idea, and no, I hadn't thought of that...yet.

Giving this approach a little thought, doesn't this mean that the underpinnings of your shop are completely exposed to the elements? Granted, the space is only four inches as you say, but I'd think there would be problems with wood (even pressure treated) and insulation so close to the raw earth. Also, being that close to the ground, doesn't that preclude running ductwork and electrical under the floor?

Oh, and while I'm at it, I see that you're up north. Doesn't being that close to the ground present problems when that dreaded white stuff appears in winter? I'm lucky to be down south where that doesn't happen. But we do get our fair share of melted white stuff. I'd think the foundation would have to be a bit higher to be protected.

Thanks to you both for adding yet another option for me to consider.

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Fourth solution...pour the slab and put your wood floor on sleepers with insulation between them. 'Best of both worlds and a warmer floor. This is likely what I would do if I were building a shop building from scratch. (I'd like to do this (sleepers) in my present shop to both get the wood floor as well as get rid of the slope...but it's not in the cards right now)

Jim,

That's one of the options I'm considering. What I was interested to see is if a foundation wall would be cheaper than the slab approach. Adding the sleepers and flooring would obviously add to the cost, once I had a baseline.

Thanks...
- Marty -

[lou sansone]

I used the slab method with poly under and above the slab, PT sleepers with conduit run in between, along with insulation. A layer of t/g plywood and a layer of RW t/g hickory that was face nailed to the sleepers. Great floor and not all that expensive.

lots of pecan in your neck of the woods and I think the best floor material available domestically

lou

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Frank (and Brad),

Interesting idea, and no, I hadn't thought of that...yet.

Giving this approach a little thought, doesn't this mean that the underpinnings of your shop are completely exposed to the elements? Granted, the space is only four inches as you say, but I'd think there would be problems with wood (even pressure treated) and insulation so close to the raw earth. Also, being that close to the ground, doesn't that preclude running ductwork and electrical under the floor?

Oh, and while I'm at it, I see that you're up north. Doesn't being that close to the ground present problems when that dreaded white stuff appears in winter? I'm lucky to be down south where that doesn't happen. But we do get our fair share of melted white stuff. I'd think the foundation would have to be a bit higher to be protected.

Thanks to you both for adding yet another option for me to consider.

- Marty -

Marty,

I was recently given the misfortune of seeing a room built on Piers up close and personal! My FIL had some wiring that needed doing under his sun room, which is built with piers, using treated lumber only for the posts and beams. The joists are all standard lumber. This room was built about 20 years ago and is still solid today.

If I were to build a shop like this, I would build it using posts and beams and then I would insulate between the joists, add a layer of poly and seal it all up with OSB. A super warm floor would result.

[Jim Becker]

That's one of the options I'm considering. What I was interested to see is if a foundation wall would be cheaper than the slab approach. Adding the sleepers and flooring would obviously add to the cost, once I had a baseline.

Things may be different where you are, but with few exceptions (if any) around here, even a slab structure must have footings/foundations to avoid heave during freeze/melt. On my structure (converted 3.5 car garage), the walls go down 4' below the grade level of the slab poured between them. I know that 'cause I dug down to get a water line in below the frost line... ;)

[tim langford]

I'm in the process of building a small office for my wife in NC. I'm using a wood foundation on top of 12" of gravel (it's in the code book). The foundation, joists and floor sheathing are pressure treated. I really like it and am going to do my shop the same way. I think it might outlast block and it is solid, rigid and easy to work with. It's exactly the same as framing walls. If you are doing the work yourself, you might try this approach.

[Marty Walsh]

Things may be different where you are, but with few exceptions (if any) around here, even a slab structure must have footings/foundations to avoid heave during freeze/melt. On my structure (converted 3.5 car garage), the walls go down 4' below the grade level of the slab poured between them. I know that 'cause I dug down to get a water line in below the frost line... ;)

Jim,

I moved south to get away from the cold. Luckily, there IS NO FROST LINE here. I checked with the local county building inspector when someone mentioned this to me, and he confirmed (while chuckling).

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

I was recently given the misfortune of seeing a room built on Piers up close and personal! My FIL had some wiring that needed doing under his sun room, which is built with piers, using treated lumber only for the posts and beams. The joists are all standard lumber. This room was built about 20 years ago and is still solid today.

If I were to build a shop like this, I would build it using posts and beams and then I would insulate between the joists, add a layer of poly and seal it all up with OSB. A super warm floor would result.

Ok, let me understand this. Are all of you saying that it's okay to build on pier (with beams), both being pressure treated? Something along these lines:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/fivebraids/shop%20construction%20ideas/Piersample.jpg

That's what I was planning to do INSIDE of the block wall foundation. (Obviously, there's blocking and such that I haven't added to this quick sketch...)

If I'm understanding you guys correctly, I can eliminate the block wall...? I assume I'd cap off the end of the row of beams to set the bottom perimeter of the structure?

Options...more options...I'm SO glad I posted this question...:rolleyes:

Tim,

Your option is yet another I hadn't thought of, and even after reading it, I'm not sure I could/would utilize it. I get the 12" of gravel, I suppose to stabilize the ground. But, what do you use as a 'sill plate' to start your framing on? Are there footings in the gravel or something? (I can't even get a mental picture of this setup, so I won't bother going into Sketchup...:confused: )

Thanks to all of you for such quick and informative replies. Don't stop now...

- Marty -

[tod evans]

call me traditional but i feel comfortable with a 12"x24" footer below frostline and an 8" stem wall keyed in place. ...02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

call me traditional but i feel comfortable with a 12"x24" footer below frostline and an 8" stem wall keyed in place. ...02 tod

Tod,

That's sort of how I was looking at things. I have a bunch of researching to do so I can feel comfortable with any of the approaches being proposed above. I have this "Toto, we're not in Kansas..." feeling at the thought of my shop sitting only on piers. The winds around here can pick up pretty good at times, and the thought of a good one getting uder the structure...well, you get the picture...:eek:

But hey, if it works, and saves me bundles of cash in the process...who am I to argue facts? (More money for heavy iron to put inside the new shop!!)

- Marty -

[tim langford]

Marty,

The footing is actually a ground contact pressure treated 2 x 12 laid upon the gravel. You might want to explore the following site http://www.cwc.ca/applications/foundations/

I might be wrong, but I think these are used mostly up north anyway.

[tim langford]

http://www.southernpine.com/pwf.shtml

I don't know how the price compares with block and concrete but I was able to do all the work myself.

You just level the gravel and work on top of that. When I do my shop, I'm going to put some level "guide" boards in first and level the rock to those. I think it will save some time with the transit and take a little of the guess work out and getting the rock right. Good luck.

[tod evans]

marty, whatever you choose make sure you speak to folks living with the finished product, preferably for 15-20 years......02 tod

[Andy Hoyt]

....The winds around here can pick up pretty good at times, and the thought of a good one getting uder the structure...well, you get the picture...

Marty - One reason that many houses get blown over by hurricanes is that their solid mass acts as a sail and the wind just pushes and pushes til something gives. Modern building codes recognize that placing a structure on a system of piers (with adequate tie-down) is better than a solid foundation since it allows the wind to blow through it. Take a drive over to the coast and look around.

[John Bailey]

Marty,

I used a wood foundation, like Tim, for my foundation. I used crushed stone instead of gravel. I spent about 3 days leveling the foundation. That work has paid dividends in that everything is level in my shop. When I built my temporary workbench I was able to cut same lengths of 2x4's and screw everything together and it came out level. Same thing when I brought the 50 yr. old DeWalt RAS into the shop - rolled it in and it was level. That may not sound very surprising to some of you, but having always lived in old houses, it's a first for me. I particulary liked the idea of doing all the work myself, although it took me a month and a half to do the foundation. (Dug it by hand.)

As far as sealing it off, I'm going the other route. I'm going to ventilate the crawl space and add a fan to keep it dry. I'm planning on running my DC runs below the floor also.

John

[Reg Mitchell]

Ok dose anyone have any heavy machines on a post and beam floor. My planer weighs in at about 1500 lbs. Wouldn't you think over a period of time it would start to sway a bit....

[George Summers]

When I built my shop I had a 3' drop in grade diagonally. Too much dirt to move for a slab ($$$$$$). I used 15 piers for a 16 x 24 shop. Here piers are ok for code IF you use PT framing and sub-floor. I lined the ground with heavy black poly and used poly backed lattace around the perimeter. I have my DC duct and 220V power run to the tablesaw in the center of the shop both run under the floor. I have 3/4" oak flooring on top of the 3/4" sub-floor. With that and 16" on center joist, my floor is very stable.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=487&c=198

George

[Chris Rosenberger]

Ok dose anyone have any heavy machines on a post and beam floor. My planer weighs in at about 1500 lbs. Wouldn't you think over a period of time it would start to sway a bit....

My shop is over a crawl space instead of post & beam & it has held up well. There is alot of weight on it & I have no sags. Another plus to the crawl space is that it can be used for extra storage space.

[Marty Walsh]

Tim,

Thanks for the links. I had already found the southern pine link, and have in fact ordered a free CD from them that has all the load and span tables for national building codes. That site will also link you to raisedfloorliving.com. Quite a bit of interesting and informative reading material there. There was some info there on both pier and beam, as well as what they referred to as Permanent Wood Foundation construction, which is what I assume you're doing.

The idea of going with what I had planned all along, only leaving out the block wall portion has me intrigued. It might mean I could do all the work myself, since I had planned to sub out either a slab or the block work. After reading through the above two sites, its apparently quite acceptable and in fact favored in high wind areas, which this can be at times.

I think I'll be heading to the town building inspector tomorrow. I live out in the country, so there is NO CODE and no inspections, but he's a pretty helpful guy and I'm sure he'll at least have an opinion on pier and beam work in this area.

Reg,

I've wondered all along about the ability of a beam/joist floor system to suppport the heavier iron. My current plan is to complete my design and take it to the structural engineer at a local truss manafacturing place and have him give me his thoughts on the dimensions and spans of the various structural elements of my design. (I'm almost to the point where I can start calculating the loads on the structure. Adding a HUGE factor for the iron and stock...)

Well again folks, thanks to all of you for your input. I'll get this sorted out soon.

- Marty -

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Marty your shop will be fine and here's why :)

You will need to dig holes that are below the frost line. Around here I like to go six feet. You put in a 8 or 12 inch thick concrete "cookie" in the bottom of the hole. Then you set a pressure treated 6x6 on top of the cookie and fill the hole with concrete. By the way, I drill 6-8 holes in the 6x6 and put re-rod in it to help hold in the concrete. Okay now your posts aren't coming out of the ground.

Next you go to your beams. You set your pressure treated 2x12 (3 of them) boards on top of the posts. The beams are secured to the posts using metal plates and bolts. Okay now your beams are secured to your posts which are secured to the ground.

Finally you set your joists on top of the beams. You use what are called hurricane clips to tie your joists to your beams. Finally you make sure your walls are tied well to your joists and your rafters to your walls :)

Everything is tied VERY well together... it's not going anywhere :) Now granted the room I am talking about is tied to the house on one side but three sides are open....

Use pressure treated lumber for your posts and beams, you can use non-pressure treated for you joists. Your outer joists and ribbon board (Covers up the ends of the joists should be pressure treated if it will be exposed. If they will be sided over, they don't have to be treated.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Forgot one thing!! The new pressure treatments (ac2) can eat conventional fasteners, they actually corrode away much faster than the old treatments. Be sure you use bolts, screws, nails and other fasteners that are made for pressure treated lumber.

[Marty Walsh]

Wow, I'm getting reponses faster than I can respond! What a wonderfully helpful bunch you all are!

Jeff, I read the bulletin about HAVING to use hot-dipped or stainless hardware with pressure treated lumber, and will be sure to include that in my plans.

Thanks...
- Marty -

[tim langford]

Marty, thanks for the topic. In looking over the pwf material again, I realized that I'd forgotten to caulk all the joints in the wood foundation. Fortunately I still have time to do it. Thanks and good luck with your shop.

By the way, a good way to stiffen wood floors is to use solid block bridging between the joists at the joists mid-points. Seems to make a lot of difference.

[Marcus Ward]

Just 2 more cents. If you decide not to go with a slab, have the whole area under and around your shop treated with termidor (fipronil). Keep those termites from making a new home in your shop and it appears to be pretty handy at keeping all creepy crawlies from invading.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

By the way, a good way to stiffen wood floors is to use solid block bridging between the joists at the joists mid-points. Seems to make a lot of difference.

I am lazy :) I hate blocking between joists, so what we have taken to do is putting plywood on the underside of the joists. Man does it stiffen them up!! Use construction adhesive in generous quantitys just like you do on the floor :)

[Ed Breen]

Hi Marty,
I built my first shop (20x20) on piers in 1983. It's still standing and the floor is still solid. I had to move into a larger shop in 2002 because I outgrew the old one. I also live rural, so no code. In the new shop I had a slab laid (50x30) and will eventually put down plywood for my feet. One thing I'd share is I keep at least three black snakews in the shop at all times. They seem to prefer the warm spots like where my battery chargers sit. But they sure keep the place free of mice etc.
goode luck with whatever you do.
Ed;)

[Marty Walsh]

Just 2 more cents. If you decide not to go with a slab, have the whole area under and around your shop treated with termidor (fipronil). Keep those termites from making a new home in your shop and it appears to be pretty handy at keeping all creepy crawlies from invading.

Marcus,

Very sound advice indeed, and something I've read more than once. I'll be SURE to get this done. Thanks...


I am lazy :) I hate blocking between joists, so what we have taken to do is putting plywood on the underside of the joists. Man does it stiffen them up!! Use construction adhesive in generous quantitys just like you do on the floor :)

Jeff,

I had planned for blocking as Tim suggests. But your idea of adding a layer of plywood on the underside of the joists is interesting. Would I have to use pressure treated ply, since it'll be exposed to the elements? And what about insulation? Do you lay your insulation between the joists, then box it in with the dual layers of ply? Oh, and what about running ducting and electric? Doesn't the ply make that a royal PITA?


Hi Marty,
... One thing I'd share is I keep at least three black snakews in the shop at all times. They seem to prefer the warm spots like where my battery chargers sit. But they sure keep the place free of mice etc.
goode luck with whatever you do.
Ed;)

Ed,

"Keep" a few black snakes in the shop? We have PLENTY of them around here, (along with cotton mouths, rattlers, etc.), but I don't know that they'll pay any attention to my request for them to set up residency in the new shop! :confused:

If I wind up with mice in the shop, I'll handle them the same way I handle those dam flying squirrels in the attic in the house...a pump action pellet rifle!:cool:

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Frank Pellow]

Frank (and Brad),

Interesting idea, and no, I hadn't thought of that...yet.

Giving this approach a little thought, doesn't this mean that the underpinnings of your shop are completely exposed to the elements? Granted, the space is only four inches as you say, but I'd think there would be problems with wood (even pressure treated) and insulation so close to the raw earth. Also, being that close to the ground, doesn't that preclude running ductwork and electrical under the floor?

Oh, and while I'm at it, I see that you're up north. Doesn't being that close to the ground present problems when that dreaded white stuff appears in winter? I'm lucky to be down south where that doesn't happen. But we do get our fair share of melted white stuff. I'd think the foundation would have to be a bit higher to be protected.

Thanks to you both for adding yet another option for me to consider.

- Marty -
Marty, first of all you can get a very good idea of the structure of my floor by looking at the posts #49 through #69 as well as #234 through #270 of thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=7769
as well as the entire thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8790

Now to your questions:

There is very little room for expoure to the elements and snow tends to bank up around the perimeter. This banked snow actually provides additional insulation in the winter and there is no need for extra protection. I know about this because I grew up considerably north of here where many folks shoveled extra snow around their houses in the winter in order to make their houses warmer.

My pressure treated beams are not near raw earth because I layed down crushed stone over heavy plastic on top of the earth beore putting the beems in place.

It probably precludes running most ductwork but it does not precule running electrical. But, I did not want to to run either of these through the floor.

[Barry O'Mahony]

Marty your shop will be fine and here's why :)

You will need to dig holes that are below the frost line. Around here I like to go six feet. You put in a 8 or 12 inch thick concrete "cookie" in the bottom of the hole. Then you set a pressure treated 6x6 on top of the cookie and fill the hole with concrete. By the way, I drill 6-8 holes in the 6x6 and put re-rod in it to help hold in the concrete. Okay now your posts aren't coming out of the ground.

Next you go to your beams. You set your pressure treated 2x12 (3 of them) boards on top of the posts. The beams are secured to the posts using metal plates and bolts. Okay now your beams are secured to your posts which are secured to the ground.

Finally you set your joists on top of the beams. You use what are called hurricane clips to tie your joists to your beams. Finally you make sure your walls are tied well to your joists and your rafters to your walls :)

Everything is tied VERY well together... it's not going anywhere :) Now granted the room I am talking about is tied to the house on one side but three sides are open....

Use pressure treated lumber for your posts and beams, you can use non-pressure treated for you joists. Your outer joists and ribbon board (Covers up the ends of the joists should be pressure treated if it will be exposed. If they will be sided over, they don't have to be treated.Jeff,
It's unclear from this description what carries the wall and roof loads.

Typically, foundations using piers have continuous perimeter foundations to support the live and dead loads on the walls and roof. Or, they include substantial grade beams that carry these loads inbetween the perimeter piers, and transfer them to the piers. Another alternative is the "pole barn", where the "piers" are PT wood posts that are extended vertically up the wall and carry the wall and roof truss loads directly, as well as providing lateral stiffness to the walls.

Marty,

There may be no code enforcement where you are, bu there is most certainly an applicable code. Banks are often the "enforcers" at times refinancing or selling. 'maybe something to check out.

[Steve Stube]

Jeff says,
Then you set a pressure treated 6x6 on top of the cookie and fill the hole with concrete.

This is not a good practice to fill around the post with cement as it gives the frost a place to grab hold and heave that cement. A cement pad below frost line to set the post on is typical and then fill the remaining hole around the post with the soil you took out of the hole. If you insist on surrounding the post with cement at least use the paperboard cylindrical sleeves to give a smooth surface - to minimize the chance for the frost to heave.

I tried your method on 200' of fence post once. I found that some of the cement broke and pushed its way to the surface around the post until it met the bottom of the fence boards and then proceded to lift the fence and some of the post nearly came out of the ground by the end of the third winter - not a pretty sight.

[tod evans]

here`s another vote for not imbeding treated lumber in concrete.......02 tod

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Jeff says,

This is not a good practice to fill around the post with cement as it gives the frost a place to grab hold and heave that cement. A cement pad below frost line to set the post on is typical and then fill the remaining hole around the post with the soil you took out of the hole. If you insist on surrounding the post with cement at least use the paperboard cylindrical sleeves to give a smooth surface - to minimize the chance for the frost to heave.

I tried your method on 200' of fence post once. I found that some of the cement broke and pushed its way to the surface around the post until it met the bottom of the fence boards and then proceded to lift the fence and some of the post nearly came out of the ground by the end of the third winter - not a pretty sight.


I will have to remember that... We have built probably 30 decks and sun rooms this way and have never had a call back. I have personally seen probably 1/2 of them and they still look great.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Jeff,
It's unclear from this description what carries the wall and roof loads.

Typically, foundations using piers have continuous perimeter foundations to support the live and dead loads on the walls and roof. Or, they include substantial grade beams that carry these loads inbetween the perimeter piers, and transfer them to the piers. Another alternative is the "pole barn", where the "piers" are PT wood posts that are extended vertically up the wall and carry the wall and roof truss loads directly, as well as providing lateral stiffness to the walls.

Marty,

There may be no code enforcement where you are, bu there is most certainly an applicable code. Banks are often the "enforcers" at times refinancing or selling. 'maybe something to check out.

This is a great point, make sure you consult a professional to be sure all of your loads are accounted for. In our case the roof loads were carried by 2 laminated joists one on either side of the room. The wall loads were supported by the floor joists. The cantilever was okay according to the engineer.

[Steve Stube]

Reg, my second level woodshop floor will handle your planner anywhere (even midspan), it was designed for my 1200 pound Powermatic 180 plus a little extra. Again not a purely post and beam as my perimeter walls are on block foundation. The expanse of Chris's shop and crawl space photo have probably put this point to rest already.

Chris, what a fantastic shop you have. It looks very large, well tooled, brightly lit and I bet a pleasure to work in.

Forgive me, two posts to this thread and no real help to the original posted questions.

[Marty Walsh]

Frank,

Thanks for the link to your shop thread. Very interesting and informative. Nice pics too...


Jeff says,

This is not a good practice to fill around the post with cement as it gives the frost a place to grab hold and heave that cement. A cement pad below frost line to set the post on is typical and then fill the remaining hole around the post with the soil you took out of the hole. If you insist on surrounding the post with cement at least use the paperboard cylindrical sleeves to give a smooth surface - to minimize the chance for the frost to heave.

I tried your method on 200' of fence post once. I found that some of the cement broke and pushed its way to the surface around the post until it met the bottom of the fence boards and then proceded to lift the fence and some of the post nearly came out of the ground by the end of the third winter - not a pretty sight.


Steve,

I'm with you. I don't like the idea of burying the posts. I'm leaning towards concrete piers, with the beams in connectors straddling the top.



...

Marty,

There may be no code enforcement where you are, bu there is most certainly an applicable code. Banks are often the "enforcers" at times refinancing or selling. 'maybe something to check out.

Barry,

In my case, the lack of code and inspections isn't an issue. As with most furniture I build, I over-engineer. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I intend to run my plans by both the county inspector, (even though he will NOT be inspecting the build), as well as the structural engineer at the local truss company. I'll probably wind up exceeding code to a ridiculous extent. But, your advice is well placed and well recieved!

Code or not, I want to do this ONCE, and do it RIGHT!




Folks, I can't thank you all enough for all the valuable advice, suggestions, warnings, and ideas you've supplied. I've spent quite a few hours in Sketchup changing things around based on this thread. I'll be submitting the end result soon for all of you to take apart. As soon as I can take a break from clearing the up the mess the bulldozer left us, that is. We have about three cords of split firewood so far. And there are probably at least thirty logs in the pile. I'll take pics in the morning and post...I can't believe I'm wishing for rain! :( )

Oh, and in case I've forgotten to quote anyone, and thank them for their post....I apologize. I'm swimming in good information, and am having a time keeping up with it all...

Thanks again...
- Marty -

[Jim Becker]

I will have to remember that... We have built probably 30 decks and sun rooms this way and have never had a call back. I have personally seen probably 1/2 of them and they still look great.
'Wouldn't pass inspection around here--DAMHIKT!. Local codes don't allow posts to be embedded in concrete. They require anchor bolts that hold post attachment hardware.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,

Thanks for the link to your shop thread. Very interesting and informative. Nice pics too...

You are more than welcome and thanks for the compliments.



Steve,

I'm with you. I don't like the idea of burying the posts. I'm leaning towards concrete piers, with the beams in connectors straddling the top.

Good way to lean. :) As you now know, thats what I did.