Which woodworking track do you appreciate most?

[Steve Mathews]

A member here brought to my attention the following DiResta Machinist Tool Box build video. I enjoy many of DiResta's videos but have some misgivings about this one including the kits that he promotes in it. I don't have a CNC machine but realize its value in a production setting. It however detracts from the craft, especially from a hobby standpoint IMHO and prevents one from developing basic woodworking skills. The kit that he promotes for young aspiring woodworkers prevents them from accomplishing the same. Rather than DiResta's approach to building a tool box I prefer the one in a video by Gillis Bjork shown in the second post to this thread. What say you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekLypqVZYvQ&t=49s

[Steve Mathews]

Below is the Gillis Bjork video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnZYVOtl1yM

[Mike Henderson]

I guess there's two ways of looking at it.

1. The important thing is to produce a product.

2. The important thing is to enjoy the process.

The CNC machine helps with the first one, and people can enjoy the process of working with the CNC machine (the second one).

Mike

[Lisa Starr]

I think it depends on how you see the hobby. I, personally, would rather take the time to try to learn a new skill.. Others would rather just purchase whatever it necessary to complete a project. I think both mindsets are okay, it is just a difference in individuals.

[Frederick Skelly]

"It [CNC] however detracts from the craft, especially from a hobby standpoint IMHO and prevents one from developing basic woodworking skills."

I have a hunch there are "pure handtool woodworkers" on this site who would say the same about me using a bandsaw to resaw, or a jointer/planer to thickness boards.

Personally, I dont have any interest in CNC. To me (YMMV), CNC is more about technical expertise using computer tools than "craftsmanship". Again - YMMV. But I think anything that gets people "making things" instead of watching a screen is probably for the better.

And using a kit can be a confidence builder encouraging the newbie to try making things. For example, I bought a wooden plane kit from Veritas to get insights into that kind of project before I made my own wooden planes.

Lots of room on this hobby. Do what makes YOU happy!

Fred

[Jim Becker]

I do not believe that CNC detracts from the craft at all. It's just another tool. It's one I now use to my own benefit as it takes away the drudgery for things I honestly do not enjoy doing as well as lets me work things out virtually so I have less frustration with a project. it doesn't remove the need to do all the finesse work at all. The technique that Diresta uses is certainly different than some more traditional approaches, but it does provide a really strong case because of all the interlocking glue surfaces and that's not a terrible thing if one plans on populating the chest with heavy tools. I was also impressed with the drawer construction and how he relieved the sides of the heavier drawer boxes for the extension glides which permitted maximizing the drawer's interior space. So it's just another way to do the job and the appearance of the end result is pretty sharp, IMHO.

That doesn't mean that other methods are not to be appreciated nor that other skills don't need to be learned. I'm only suggesting that different isn't bad and sometimes it can have advantages, such as the excellent strength in the case that is built in the Diresta video.

[Jared Sankovich]

If I wanted a machinist chest and only had hand tools I'd just buy one.

I always enjoy these "what is woodworking" threads as it is generally the base assumption that people want to learn the skills as an academic endeavor. That certainly is true for some but definitely not all.

I like to compare it to the diy person building a deck. Just because you have the tools and ability (or strive to aquire the tools ans abilities) doesn't mean you do it for the pure enjoyment of doing it.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Ha! I saw that video the other day and turned it off about halfway through for the same reason, I’m not that excited about watching a CNC machine cut out parts. For a business I can see them making sense, but they have zero appeal to me as a hobbiest.

But, as my grandmother used to say, It takes all kinds. I get that some people like the gadget aspect of CNCs, or the computer programming side of it, or they just like being able to glue the parts together like a kit without doing much hand work. No skin off my back if that is what they are into.

This is an excuse to post a picture of a toolbox I made for my bike tools a couple of years ago. All by hand, including re-sawing the top panel to book match it. Kind of ridiculous, but I enjoyed making it.

474374474375

[Ray Newman]

S. Matthews: thanks for posting the first video--it was interesting. While I watched it, the overall size looked a more than a "bit" oversized and then at the end my eyes didn't deceive me -- something like 48"x30"x16". Even empty and as my dad would say: "It'll take to me and boy to lift it!

I wonder how big the the engine lathe is? Would like to see the rest of his shop. The old Cadillac(??) hearse also caught my eye.

[Andrew Seemann]

The problem with things like "it detracts from the craft" is you start going down a rabbit hole of what "it", "detracts", and "craft" mean, not to mention who the ultimate arbiter is of all those definitions. What is "the craft", who defines it as such, why do they get to?

The other thing that frequently happens is ending up in an endless string of one-upsmanship to absurdity, where the ultimate woodworker is someone who only works wood by hand, and that they grew, cut, and air dried themselves on their own land, using tools they forged themselves with bog iron from their own swamp, and finished with raw linseed oil they pressed themselves from flax they grew in their own field. And they only produce two or three pieces a year.

I've had different phases (for lack of a better word) in my woodworking times. I started using my dad's Craftsman hand and power tools in his shop. I eventually had my own shop in my 20s, and it was filled with what I could salvage, scrounge, and rebuild from the dead. Then I had a hand tool and hide glue phase. Then I actually needed start to get things done on reasonable schedule and got more stationary machinery and started using the machines I had more.

Now I am at the point where I just want to produce nice work at a relatively quick pace, and I don't really care what method I use. I've thought about picking up a cnc and maybe a laser engraver at some point, mostly because they look kind of neat, and they excel at things I am not good, don't like, or or have no desire to learn, like lettering, carving, or making 30 identical baltic birch "Minnesotas" with the bandsaw and router for end-of-season awards for my kid's Squirt hockey team.

I say do whatever floats your boat, it's your hobby/livelihood :)

(Apologies if this sounds cranky, I'm sitting and warming up in front of the stove in the shop on my day off in denial that I'm too sick to do anything else in here:)

[Bryan Hall]

CNC doesn't inspire me either. That being said, I agree with some of the above comments in that saying "it detracts from the craft" is a slippery slope. I remember watching a video of what, if I remember correctly, was a Japanese monk building a small jewelry box. Everything he did was hand tools, and he even had special sitting techniques to hold the wood while it was worked. No bench, no clamps. So you could say....... benches detract from the craft?

It's all a progression and it's simply important to do what you like. You and I might look at a piece and think about all the years of experience it took to build it and really appreciate that. A programmer might look at a CNC'd piece and think about all the years of software development it took to get there and really appreciate that. It's all about finding your own way.

[Steve Mathews]

Let me pose the question another way. The toolbox kit that DiResta advertises in the video is shown below. It's basically plywood parts cut out by a CNC. All that is required essentially is gluing them together. If you would like to introduce your child to woodworking, after an interest is shown of course, would you prefer to just buy the DiResta kit or some basic handtools and raw materials?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Jimmy-s-Workshop-I-Make-You-Build-Tool-Box-DIY/939296600

[Jim Becker]

Would like to see the rest of his shop.
That's his new shop, a very large post-frame building put up by RR Buildings who I also follow on the 'Tube and socials. Diresta finished the interior, built the big doors, etc. There are a number of videos of the whole process. This building is on his rural property. His partner/spouse just built a huge and magnificent timber frame horse barn on the same property. He still has his other commercial shop which is heavily metalworking, but covers everything anyway.

[Jim Becker]

Let me pose the question another way. The toolbox kit that DiResta advertises in the video is shown below. It's basically plywood parts cut out by a CNC. All that is required essentially is gluing them together. If you would like to introduce your child to woodworking, after an interest is shown of course, would you prefer to just buy the DiResta kit or some basic handtools and raw materials?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Jimmy-s-Workshop-I-Make-You-Build-Tool-Box-DIY/939296600

I can appreciate your point. The devil's advocate side would be that sometimes kits like this actually inspire folks to want to do things themselves. There's no one way here.

[Edward Weber]

How ever you want to approach building your craft is entirely up to you.
The toolbox kit that DiResta advertises is not woodworking IMO.
Not because he uses a CNC but because you could just as easily have the pieces be plastic foam or anything else. It's just a kit to be assembled like flat-pack furniture, the fact that it's made from a manufactured wood product (plywood) has no bearing on the kit what so ever.
You may teach someone how to follow directions and assemble per-fabricated parts, which has it's own benefits but it is not woodworking.
That's just my personal opinion on it, there is no right or wrong

[Roger Feeley]

KC Strings in he Kansas City area is a successful collaboration of. Classically trained luthier and a cabinet maker. The cabinet maker learned about the process of making a fine violin and realized that he could help. The luthier chooses the wood and the cabinet makers join the plate halves and CNC it almost to completion. The luthier takes over with his little finger planes and completes the shaping. The CNC basically relieves a highly skilled luthier of the drudgery.

[Frederick Skelly]

"If you would like to introduce your child to woodworking, after an interest is shown of course, would you prefer to just buy the DiResta kit or some basic handtools and raw materials?"


I have done it both ways and I think kits have their place. Example. A guy at work was a cub scout leader. The kids are supposed to make a toolbox roughly similar to the one you posted, to stimulate interest in making things. He asked if they could come to my shop and make them. To keep them safe, I settled on a kit-based approach. So I bought clear pine and made kits similar to DiResta's. The kids and their Dads pretty much just screwed them together. But the sense of accomplishment was vivid. Later, some of those kids liked it enough that they helped build a deck. Another helped Dad build a doghouse. Now they are in high school and at least two have stopped by to show me a project they built in FFA.

I dont think there's a right way or a wrong way to start people in woodworking. The only thing that matters is that they stay safe and that they have fun.

[Andrew More]

A couple of things occur to me, some of which might be offensive, if so I appologize.

First, I don't like CNC, but I don't know if I would necessarily draw the line to woodworking/not woodworking. Maybe it makes more sense to classify it as a type of working with wood, like like machines vs hand tools, or turning vs furniture making, or the like. It's clear that it's creating something out of wood.

Second, I like Jimmy Diresta, and I watch all of his videos. I have learned a lot from him, but I also think that he teaches a lot of potentially bad or harmful habits. He is clearly focused on one thing, and one thing only, and that's producing things at speed. As such I think that if there's a slower way to do things that will result in a better product he's unlikely to take it, or teach it. To each his own, but I think people need to keep this in mind while watching him. He's clearly building things to sell them.

Third, I think the kits he sells are good for beginners and if they get people started, I'm fine with them. FWIW, I've purchased some similar kits from Lowes and assembled them with my 3 and 5 year old. I think this level of having everything pre-cut, just needing some basic assembly is good for that level. I think maybe some people who dismiss these kits are forgetting all of the long, painful lessons they've learned along the way, and maybe don't appreciate the vast learning curve, and the need for some easy "wins" to build confidence. It doesn't help that we seem to surround outselves with a echo chamber of other highly skilled craftsmen and don't see what people just starting out are dealing with.

Fourth, I can't help noticing at number of things very recently that Jimmy has been doing to make money. I hope things are going well for him, until this point he did not seem to struggle to make money as much as he seems to be doing now.

[Michael Fink]

While I think CNC is amazing, I also have little interest in using it. I'm a programmer by trade, so the idea of turning my woodworking into another program sounds too much like work to me.

I see it as the difference between learning to shoot a free throw effectively vs building a robot to throw them 100% of the time. Both are interesting challenges. I'd rather build the robot, because I'd have more chance of success and, for me, shooting free throws is like watching paint dry. I'm sue figuring the 1/32nd you need to take off to get the dado to fit, to others, sounds like watching paint dry. Just type it in and let the computer cut it!

I enjoy the process though, enjoy having some skills with my hands (other than my ability to type really fast). I don't look down on CNC woodworkers at all, in fact, I'm really curious and interested in it, but I really don't want to turn my hobby into something that starts to look very similar to my day job.

[Ben Ellenberger]

"If you would like to introduce your child to woodworking, after an interest is shown of course, would you prefer to just buy the DiResta kit or some basic handtools and raw materials?"


I have done it both ways and I think kits have their place. Example. A guy at work was a cub scout leader. The kids are supposed to make a toolbox roughly similar to the one you posted, to stimulate interest in making things. He asked if they could come to my shop and make them. To keep them safe, I settled on a kit-based approach. So I bought clear pine and made kits similar to DiResta's. The kids and their Dads pretty much just screwed them together. But the sense of accomplishment was vivid. Later, some of those kids liked it enough that they helped build a deck. Another helped Dad build a doghouse. Now they are in high school and at least two have stopped by to show me a project they built in FFA.

I dont think there's a right way or a wrong way to start people in woodworking. The only thing that matters is that they stay safe and that they have fun.

I think that is a great use for kits like this. If you want to give a group of kids an introduction to putting things together themselves, this sets them up to have a successful introduction and end up with something they can use. Then any of them that like it can start learning more with their next project. And if the parent in charge of the event is busy, I would completely understand wanting to just buy the kits instead of prepping everything ahead of time.

[Carl Beckett]

I watched Norm and the New Yankee Workshop on TV many times. He inspired me to build some things.

My brother uses all hand tools and swears off any form of power tool.

There is an entire maker community that uses CAD and other fabrication methods to do some amazing stuff (sheet metal forms, injection molding proto, castings, etc etc I cant even think of all the things).

A friend of mine grew barley because he wanted to make beer. I buy mine.

It is whatever inspiration hits you is my view. Personally I tend to do a little of everything. Sometimes I cut dovetails by hand. Sometimes I use a machine with guide. I never flatten boards with a hand plane.

[Ole Anderson]

If seeing his video inspires anyone to buy the kit and learn intricacies of assembly, gluing and finishing then that is a start. It's wood and he/she is working with it. Maybe that person is a hobby machinist and wants to start dabbling in wood? Not a bad thing.

[George Yetka]

I agree the CNC doesnt take away from a project. It does however make it less interesting to watch in a youtube video. Most dont show the programming or setup, just push a button(in the Video). I watch to learn.

[Edward Weber]

I would add that it seems to be, to me anyway, a generational thing.
When I was a boy, I played with erector sets, tinker toys blocks and then Legos. All of these toys have immeasurable educational benefits beyond a kit that can only be assembled in a predetermined fashion. We built what we wanted to and learned what did and didn't work as we built things over and over. As I said earlier, kits also have benefits but it's not the same skill set.
Even now toys like some lego kits have devolved, the parts in the box builds only whats on the cover. The first lego box I got said this on the cover
"Without the restriction of instructions, your child will learn to imagine and create for hours at a time"

To me, kits are great for learning motor skills and assembly procedures and many other base building principles. Construction toys, like the ones I mentioned above, let you use your imagination while learning these same basic principles.
Both have their place though they are not the same. Everyone has their own preference.
JMHO

[mark mcfarlane]

If seeing his video inspires anyone to buy the kit and learn intricacies of assembly, gluing and finishing then that is a start. It's wood and he/she is working with it. Maybe that person is a hobby machinist and wants to start dabbling in wood? Not a bad thing.

I agree. The very simple Walmart kit https://www.walmart.com/ip/Jimmy-s-Workshop-I-Make-You-Build-Tool-Box-DIY/939296600 is especially a good kit idea for a young person. Still stuff to learn on gluing, sanding, and finishing - all within the attention span of a 8-12 year old, i.e. a couple hours a day for a couple days.

The plywood frame for the video's machinist box cut on the CNC was pretty awesome. It's a very strong structure. Using what appeared to be CA for the finger joints was also interesting. Using putty to place the inset drawer fronts,... Always educational to watch videos like this and see how someone else tackles assembly.

[Roger Feeley]

For my daughters wedding, I made wedding favors. I made 85 two person Chinese checker boards, each with 49 little pits. That’s 4,165 little pits. I don’t think I would have undertaken the project without access to the CNC router at the KC Woodworkers Guild shop. A guy there showed taught me enough to get through my project. Each board took just over two minutes.

[Sean Nagle]

I watched only one of those videos all the way through and it wasn't Jimmy's.

[Michael Schuch]

A few of the things I saw in that video caught my attention:
1) Assembling the finger joints dry then applying glue on the outside of the assembled joint? Was he using CA glue? How do you know if you have proper penetration into the fingers???
2) Bondo to mount the drawer faces? I like this idea to line up and hold the drawer faces but I would sure the heck use at a couple of screws to back up the Bondo. He hid one screw behind the drawer pull but I would still want more strength than that.
3) Cut the Drawer bottoms the size of the inside of the drawer and just glue them in. I guess it would work but uh... just doesn't feel right to me.

As for the CNC precut panels... not what I would want. I would want a cabinet customized to my personal use and needs so precut panels would defeat a major reason for building something myself. It I had my own CNC and could design my own cabinet with the dimensions "I" want I would have no problem using it. Most of what I don't like about the tool boxes I have is that they aren't really a great fit for my tools.

I did see a couple of neat short cuts that I had never thought of before.

I think I like the style of woodworking in the second video from Gillis Björk (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVdvwXru5T-YrHDvse7SNIA) better. Seems like it is more craftsmanship than production... even though I am pretty far from following the neanderthal way of building.