Shoulder plane question

[lou Brava]

I've never used one or owned one but I just bought one. I just finished up some large M&T joints & used a chisel to pair tenons which worked great. But I've been eying shoulder planes I think there really cool looking so I got one (probably a tool I don't really need).
My question is, is the plane iron supposed to be as wide or a bit wider than the plane body ?
The plane iron on the one I bought is a little over a 1/16" narrow than the plane body so to get right up to the shoulder the iron needs to be skewed left or right.
Plane is this one,
https://taytools.com/products/taytools-shoulder-plane-ductile-iron?bis_id=9NAkNMN&utm_campaign=stock-notification&utm_content=1%22%20Wide%203-in-1%20Shoulder%20Plane%20Ductile%20Iron&utm_medium=email&utm_source=back-in-stock&variant=18065689542707
Thanks

[Jim OConnor]

Should be the same width as the body. If yours is narrow, you may have to bias it to one side to see if you can get it to the edge……. But 1/16” is a big gap

[Jim Koepke]

The blade on rabbet planes, of which a shoulder plane is, the blade should be just a hair wider than the body. A caliper to measure your plane base and the blade would be of help in determining if the blade is wide enough.

You may want to contact whoever sold this to you to see if they can send you a replacement blade or return the tool for a refund.

Here is an old post on shoulder planes > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?119301

In my experience there are two reliable ways to save on tools; buy quality from the start or learn to pick good used tools inexpensively and restore them yourself.

Buying cheap seldom saves time or money over the long run.

jtk

[Mark e Kessler]

Blade is Hair wider, for the side you need it flush on lay the plane on a flat surface loosen then retighten.

also just saw you bought a low end plane, for it to be effective the sides need to be 90 to the sole the whole way and the sole and sides need to be flat or you will struggle with its use, return it and save up for a LN or other quality brand.

[Scott Clausen]

My understanding is that if not slightly proud of the plane body you will get a tapered rebate on a rebate plane. If not wide enough you may be able to set the side in use to be proud. Often people that are not aware of this will file the edges to make them even with the plane body. I think there is a Paul Sellers video on this very subject. I used mine this weekend and liked it.

[lou Brava]

Yeah, I kinda figured that the blade iron should be at least as wide so prior to ordering from Taylor I sent email specifically asking if blade was a bit wider & they confirmed it was. The body of plane measures 27.8mm Blade is 27.3 so basically 1/16" narrower. So now I'm gonna call them up & most likely return it. Over all the tool seems well made and the base is perfectly square to the sides, it was very very dull though and I had to sharpen it to make it work right.
Tool cost vs. value is kinda of no brainier and I really like high end tools. But on the hand I work with some old Stanley planes that were never top of the line and they plane fantastic. I don't need a 400 dollar Jack plane. I'm a retired Genaral Contractor who is now hobby wood worker just getting back into actually using tools !
I really couldn't justify spending 250 bucks on a tool I can defiantly get by with out. I took a chance on the low priced Taylor knowing it might be going back.
Thanks for all the replies

[Mark e Kessler]

One other thing, i have had a Stanley 93 for 30 years which out of square on one side and slightly dished at the throat on the sole. It worked and was ok but never did shoulders that well, i used it more like a block plane.

Looks to be about the same size as the taytool one. I bought the large LN and their is no comparison, it actually works as designed where the Stanley just kinda did it. The weight makes a huge difference in quality when it comes to the cut and it is soooo nice to handle and use. I just trimmed some 1” x 3/4” tenons with perf results you would think that LN is way to big for that task but it’s the opposite, I wished i had seen the light 25 years ago…

[glenn bradley]

As mentioned, a hair wider. I would think that narrower, especially that much, would require more skew than I want to deal with. I often have the iron just a skosh past the side.

[Robert Engel]

I like the Lee Valley planes b/c they have set screws or sideways adjustment. The Lie Nielsen and Stanleys don't.

Shoulder planes actually aren't supposed to use on tenon faces, even though we do it.

I like to use a router plane with a wide base. This keeps the tenon parallel to the face, which is always an issue with shoulder planes.

A rabbet block plane is nice for wider tenons.

[steven c newman]

Seems to be the "Required response" on this site...someone is always shaming others into buying certain brand name tools...irregardless of the cost to an OP...almost like their was a Commission involved...

My "Large " shoulder plane is a body bodied one, a No, 181 Skewed Rebate plane, with an 1.25" width tapered iron .

However....IF one has either a Stanley No. 78, or the Sargent No.79....retract the spurs...instant shoulder plane....and a lot easier to push, to boot.

IF they want you to have that $400 plane..then have THEM buy for you....

[Mark e Kessler]

Seems to be the "Required response" on this site...someone is always shaming others into buying certain brand name tools...irregardless of the cost to an OP...almost like their was a Commission involved...

My "Large " shoulder plane is a body bodied one, a No, 181 Skewed Rebate plane, with an 1.25" width tapered iron .

However....IF one has either a Stanley No. 78, or the Sargent No.79....retract the spurs...instant shoulder plane....and a lot easier to push, to boot.

IF they want you to have that $400 plane..then have THEM buy for you....

Guess it depends on how you look at it and if your sensitive to such notions, WW is such a personal thing and everyone has their preferences - I don’t mind having other points of view and experiences. I have a mix of old and new and for me when it comes to hand planes I don’t waste my time on ebay/fleamarket finds but others may and thats ok.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Seems to be the "Required response" on this site...someone is always shaming others into buying certain brand name tools...irregardless of the cost to an OP...almost like their was a Commission involved...

My "Large " shoulder plane is a body bodied one, a No, 181 Skewed Rebate plane, with an 1.25" width tapered iron .

However....IF one has either a Stanley No. 78, or the Sargent No.79....retract the spurs...instant shoulder plane....and a lot easier to push, to boot.

IF they want you to have that $400 plane..then have THEM buy for you....

I agree with Mark’s response and want to piggyback on it.

I don’t believe anyone on this forum is “shaming” someone to buy a certain product or anything they can’t afford. Offering recommendations and opinions of certain products is not shaming. There are always alternatives for every budget and level of expertise.

Another thing, I have a lot of what you and some others might consider expensive tools. In almost all cases they tend to function perfectly out of the box and are backed by excellent customer service and a lifetime warranty. I know for a fact that the same cannot be said for flea market/garage sale and auction site purchases. I guarantee that the time, frustration and sometimes extra $$$ spent getting these to function properly is comparable to buying a new high quality product that you can put to work immediately.

Some people enjoy spending time working on their tools. I have no problem with that and do so when it’s required. But I feel my time is better and more pleasurably spent having my tools work for me rather than the other way around.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm..more than one way to skin a cat....
474387
Shall we open the case?
474388
Don't mind if I do....
474389
Auburn Tool Co. of Auburn, NY. No. 181 1.25" skewed rebate plane..
474390


Old vs new..
474391
Rotate the spur up out of the way...works just fine...

So...who is going to BUY the OP that shoulder plane...Hmmmm?

[Jim Koepke]

Seems to be the "Required response" on this site...someone is always shaming others into buying certain brand name tools...irregardless of the cost to an OP...almost like their was a Commission involved...

My "Large " shoulder plane is a body bodied one, a No, 181 Skewed Rebate plane, with an 1.25" width tapered iron .

However....IF one has either a Stanley No. 78, or the Sargent No.79....retract the spurs...instant shoulder plane....and a lot easier to push, to boot.

IF they want you to have that $400 plane..then have THEM buy for you....

Geeze Leweeze did someone from those "certain brand name tools" kick your cat?

It is unfortunate that when quality is mentioned there are so few vendors who consistently provide said quality reliably. It would be wonderful if there were many more. The names of those vendors are well known, as are the specific tools they make and sell. For many, who are delighted with their experiences with tools they have bought from these vendors and relationships they have built with the people representing those vendors, the extra cost is well worth it.

That said, for many people a sharp chisel, with a low bevel angle works much better for trimming shoulders than a shoulder plane.

The Stanley #78, Sargent #79 or the Record #778 are all a bit clumsy for trimming shoulders.

A shoulder plane does come in useful when fine tuning a rabbet, moldings and other tasks.

BTW, the Stanley shoulder planes are a bit hit or miss on usability, imo.

jtk

[Mark e Kessler]

Are you trying to shame everyone into using old tools?

lol - sorry couldn’t resist…


Hmmm..more than one way to skin a cat....
474387
Shall we open the case?
474388
Don't mind if I do....
474389
Auburn Tool Co. of Auburn, NY. No. 181 1.25" skewed rebate plane..
474390


Old vs new..
474391
Rotate the spur up out of the way...works just fine...

So...who is going to BUY the OP that shoulder plane...Hmmmm?

[Charles Taylor]

Next on the McLaughlin Group: Lie-Nielsen is the SawStop of the Neanderthal world.


Aaaaaand...FIGHT!

[lou Brava]

Next on the McLaughlin Group: Lie-Nielsen is the SawStop of the Neanderthal world.


Aaaaaand...FIGHT!


Oh please say it ain't so.... Don't get me started on the SS fanatics
But get this I tried to call Taylor to discuss the problem but they don't have a phone number :mad:. I emailed them & asked em why they would tell me in an email the iron is wider than the body & send out the exact opposite ? I told em send me new iron or a return shipping label, we'll see what happens.
If I get a refund & have a beer or 2 pretty sure I'll end up ordering one form Lie Nielsen.

[Charles Taylor]

But get this I tried to call Taylor to discuss the problem but they don't have a phone number :mad:.

Just to let you know, there is a number that can be found on their Web site…. 573-397-6432.

Best of luck getting this resolved.

[William Lessenberry]

If I get a refund & have a beer or 2 pretty sure I'll end up ordering one form Lie Nielsen.

Hope you don't need it anytime soon, both LN and Lee Valley shoulder planes are out of stock for at least few weeks/months. Something else we have to deal with nowadays. :-(
BillL

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I’ve honestly been confused about this point. I have a large veritas shoulder plane and love it. The blade is slightly wider then the plane. Lee valley instructs to set it, lay it on its side (the side corresponding to the side you witch’s to plane into) on a flat reference surface, loosen the blade and push down. By doing this I get the blade flush with the side. So what I understand from this is that the blade is designed to work flush. But then why don’t they grind it flush to begin with. Is it to avoid error or save money (I don’t seriously think that veritas would skip grinding as a cost saving step)?

[Keegan Shields]

Another viable option, if the LN and LV models are out of stock, are the Woodriver series shoulder planes. I have the medium size shoulder plane and it works great. But I do prefer my LN shoulder planes... makes me feel better than Steven when I use it. :)

I buy the LV/LN planes because they are usually only 10%-20% more than the Chinese versions (Woodriver, Luban, etc.), the fit and finish is much better, and they are made domestically (Canada is basically the US right?). Plus their resale value is high if I want to sell them and I know they will work out of the box. I wont have to spend time flattening the sole and blade and troubleshooting issues.

I am happy to sell my WR medium shoulder plane to the OP for a few bucks. PM me if you'd like it. I think I paid $150 shipped in Jan '21.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/woodriver-92-medium-shoulder-plane

[steven c newman]

Makes you wonder WHAT these guys would say about all of this..
474437

Used to be a fellow that claimed..unless you spend at least $26,000.00 on your tools, you just can not be considered a SERIOUS Woodworker....

[Mark e Kessler]

Makes you wonder WHAT these guys would say about all of this..
474437

Used to be a fellow that claimed..unless you spend at least $26,000.00 on your tools, you just can not be considered a SERIOUS Woodworker....


Not sure what your point is, are you thinking they did not have a mix of hand made tools along with the pedestrian variety and some expensive ones that actually gave good results?

A house I bought had a tool chest like LAP pushes to build, I have the history of that tool chest and its owners going back to at least the late 1800's, guess what was in it? everything from modified screwdrivers as chisels and awl's to very early Starrett to a St Johnsbury square which I am sure was not inexpensive at the time

[Mark e Kessler]

The LN shoulder is usually not that long of a wait, just sign up to be notified and when you receive the email be ready to buy.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Makes you wonder WHAT these guys would say about all of this..
474437

Used to be a fellow that claimed..unless you spend at least $26,000.00 on your tools, you just can not be considered a SERIOUS Woodworker....

Maybe they would say what a gambling friend of mine used to say, “Quit while you’re behind.”

[steven c newman]

Or, maybe I'll stop while I am ahead....
474460

Kind of doubt IF any of that crew ever heard tell of an "LV" or a L-N....looks like they got along just fine.:D

[steven c newman]

"What we got here is...failure to communicate....."



On the old "WOODonline forums....a fellow known as Amateur60 was the author of that saying.....Just imagine buying a brand new Sawstop..and being told you NEEDED to do an IMMEDIATE upgrade, that costs almost as much as the saw did in the first place..or you never be able to use it, for any sort of "serious" work....

Seems some around here have that same theory.....

[Mark e Kessler]

Idk, a mix of old and new tools still has my vote and certainly helps to build a beautiful tool cabinet, even helped install properly mortises butt hinges.
474462474463

[Jim Koepke]

I’ve honestly been confused about this point. I have a large veritas shoulder plane and love it. The blade is slightly wider then the plane. Lee valley instructs to set it, lay it on its side (the side corresponding to the side you witch’s to plane into) on a flat reference surface, loosen the blade and push down. By doing this I get the blade flush with the side. So what I understand from this is that the blade is designed to work flush. But then why don’t they grind it flush to begin with. Is it to avoid error or save money (I don’t seriously think that veritas would skip grinding as a cost saving step)?

Assaf, thanks for posting the Lee Valley instructions for setting the blade on the Cabinet Makers Rabbet Plane. (aka Shoulder Plane) The method sounds very familiar…

My thoughts on why the blade is a touch wider come down to two reasons. First, it is easier to make it slightly wider than dealing with the tolerance problems of matching each plane body, especially with a replacement blade. Second, this leave a little bit of metal for those who want to touch up the side bevels on the blade.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Used to be a fellow that claimed..unless you spend at least $26,000.00 on your tools, you just can not be considered a SERIOUS Woodworker....

“There’s a sucker born every minute” — P.T. Barnum (though current research can not find any support for the claim of this ever being said or written by Barnum)

There sure are a lot of woodworking folks who must not be "SERIOUS."

jtk

[Malcolm McLeod]

Assaf, thanks for posting the Lee Valley instructions for setting the blade on the Cabinet Makers Rabbet Plane. (aka Shoulder Plane) The method sounds very familiar…

My thoughts on why the blade is a touch wider come down to two reasons. First, it is easier to make it slightly wider than dealing with the tolerance problems of matching each plane body, especially with a replacement blade. Second, this leave a little bit of metal for those who want to touch up the side bevels on the blade.

jtk

L-N shoulder plane instructions match. I lost my neaderginity to a L-N medium in all its out-of-the-box glory; arriving at piston fit M&T nirvana in what I was fairly certain was an illegal act.

And tho' perhaps not traditional use, I'd offer a third, that the wider blade allows working L>R, R>L to deepen a dado.

As for the new-old debate, if you don't agree with me then you are EVIL! I'm sensing a trend .... and we can add shoulder planes to the banned list.:eek:

[lou Brava]

Another viable option, if the LN and LV models are out of stock, are the Woodriver series shoulder planes. I have the medium size shoulder plane and it works great. But I do prefer my LN shoulder planes... makes me feel better than Steven when I use it. :)

I buy the LV/LN planes because they are usually only 10%-20% more than the Chinese versions (Woodriver, Luban, etc.), the fit and finish is much better, and they are made domestically (Canada is basically the US right?). Plus their resale value is high if I want to sell them and I know they will work out of the box. I wont have to spend time flattening the sole and blade and troubleshooting issues.

I am happy to sell my WR medium shoulder plane to the OP for a few bucks. PM me if you'd like it. I think I paid $150 shipped in Jan '21.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/woodriver-92-medium-shoulder-plane


Thanks for the offer ! I'll send you PM soon as here back on refund status, should be no later that tomorrow.

[lou Brava]

Idk, a mix of old and new tools still has my vote and certainly helps to build a beautiful tool cabinet, even helped install properly mortises butt hinges.
474462474463


That is one nice looking cabinet ! And has me motivated to build one, although it won't hold a candle to yours it's great way to organize the tools.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Makes you wonder WHAT these guys would say about all of this..
474437

.....

I think that guy - 2nd from left - was just arrested for 3rd degree Felonious Coveting on Bridge City's website.

[Keegan Shields]

Who said you had to have LN or LV tools to be a real woodworker? I didn’t read that anywhere.

Your argument seems to be of the straw man variety Steven. It’s cool you like to rust hunt. I don’t have time for that. Woodworking is a hobby for me and when I get time for it, I just want my tools to work. So I buy the best tools I can afford.

I’m not sure why you like to glorify the past, but I have no desire to be like those gentleman in your picture. Days filled with hard labor, poor living standards, and low life expectancy are not something to aspire to in my book.

[James Pallas]

I can remember exactly how old my LN shoulder plane is but I do remember that the info said the iron was wider than the body. It gives you a chance to touch up the edge over the years of use. As I remember from school all rabbet type planes need the edge touched up, not extremely sharp but sharp. The edge also needs a slight back bevel so the tip of the iron will not be held off and not cut a clean corner.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Didn't Preston and Record also make some decent shoulder planes?

[Ray Newman]

I am fortunate enough to possess a UK-made Record 073 shoulder plane. Large and heavy -- 4 lbs. -- with a blade that is easy to sharpen and holds its edge well. Do not utilize it a great deal, but it always works and I have never regretted its purchase back in the early 1980's.

Also have a small Clifton UK-made 410 shoulder plane -- 5/8" blade. Small and it demands that the blade be surgically sharp to work as the mouth is non-adjustable. It has come in handy at times. Seems to me I purchase it and the Record 073 at the same time as it is such a diminutive plane, I bought it on a whim.

[Jim Koepke]

Didn't Preston and Record also make some decent shoulder planes?

Not something that shows up that often at your usual estate sale.

jtk