220v woodworking equipment and EV charging on the same outlet?

[Aaron Heck]

I think the answer to this is no, but I just wanted to check.

We just moved into a new house and I need to have an electrician put in a 220v circuit for the table saw, etc. I think this is commonly probably a 30 amp circuit.

I am also getting a Hybrid vehicle and while I'm not sold on a level 2 charger yet, I'd like to keep that option open. But...I think many of these level 2 chargers can go up to 50 amps. However, the Wrangler I'm getting maxes out at 32amps but I'm thinking about future proofing.

I think either way you go would be bad - plugging in the saw into a 50amp outlet would be dangerous and plugging in an EV charger to a 30 amp circuit would flip the breaker. So is the only option to really have 2 separate curcuits? that's fine, I was just trying to keep the electrical costs to a minimum.

thanks!

[Mike Henderson]

I think the answer to this is no, but I just wanted to check.

We just moved into a new house and I need to have an electrician put in a 220v circuit for the table saw, etc. I think this is commonly probably a 30 amp circuit.

I am also getting a Hybrid vehicle and while I'm not sold on a level 2 charger yet, I'd like to keep that option open. But...I think many of these level 2 chargers can go up to 50 amps. However, the Wrangler I'm getting maxes out at 32amps but I'm thinking about future proofing.

I think either way you go would be bad - plugging in the saw into a 50amp outlet would be dangerous and plugging in an EV charger to a 30 amp circuit would flip the breaker. So is the only option to really have 2 separate curcuits? that's fine, I was just trying to keep the electrical costs to a minimum.

thanks!

It is not at all dangerous to plug the saw into a 50 amp outlet. You could plug it into a 1,000 amp circuit and it would be very safe. The breaker is there to protect the wire, not the tool.

Remember that an EV will only draw 80% of the circuit's rated current, so on a 50 amp circuit, the EV will only draw 40 amps.

If you plug the EV into a 30 amp circuit (and tell the EV it's a 30 amp circuit) it will only draw 24 amps.

Mike

[Aaron Heck]

ok, I think I can understand what you are saying about the breaker protecting the wire. But if this is the case, why not make all of the runs in the house have very high amp breakers? If there's no fear running smaller stuff on them? There must be a reason for using smaller amp breakers?

Taking the table saw as an example, I'm guessing the amps is set by the motor, so in theory, that motor will never draw more than (I'm guessing here) 20 amps which is why it'd be ok to have it on a 50 amp circuit?

But back to my question, just to make sure I understand, cause this electrical stuff is always a bit over my head. So there should be no problem, if I'm going to have 1 run put in to make it a 50 amp circuit. I think the one thing I'd need to change is probably the plug on the saw, but that shouldn't be an issue I don't think. And then I should be good with any plug in EV charger I find?

[Jared Sankovich]

ok, I think I can understand what you are saying about the breaker protecting the wire. But if this is the case, why not make all of the runs in the house have very high amp breakers? If there's no fear running smaller stuff on them? There must be a reason for using smaller amp breakers?

Taking the table saw as an example, I'm guessing the amps is set by the motor, so in theory, that motor will never draw more than (I'm guessing here) 20 amps which is why it'd be ok to have it on a 50 amp circuit?

But back to my question, just to make sure I understand, cause this electrical stuff is always a bit over my head. So there should be no problem, if I'm going to have 1 run put in to make it a 50 amp circuit. I think the one thing I'd need to change is probably the plug on the saw, but that shouldn't be an issue I don't think. And then I should be good with any plug in EV charger I find?

$$$ is the reason. Copper is expensive. The braker is sized to the wire. The motor starter/overloads protect the motor.

You could hard wire you table saw to a 100A branch circuit if you wanted.

[Aaron Heck]

ok, cool, I think I got it.

Quick google search tells me 10g wire for 30amp circuit and 6g for 40-50 amps so since this would be a pretty short run, maybe the difference is pretty negligible in cost. Multiple longer runs that would def be a factor, I suppose.

So last question (I hope). If I plug in my WW tools to a new 50amp breaker, does the gauge of the wire from the motor to the plug (to plug in the machine) have to match the gauge of the wire between the breaker and the receptacle? i.e. do I need to upgrade the wiring to my tools if I choose to put in a 50amp breaker?

[Zachary Hoyt]

No. Just like you can plug in a desk lamp to the same plug that you use for a vacuum cleaner. The wire has to be sufficiently large to carry the current from the outlet to the load, and beyond that it doesn't matter.

[roger wiegand]

Well designed EVs (can't speak to GM/Chrysler products) you or the car adjusts the charging rate to the circuit available. So if all you have is a 15 A plug you set the charging to draw 120V/12A and you're good. If you've got a 60A breaker on a wall charger you can charge at up to 48A/240V.

A reasonable bet for future-proofing is to pull #6 copper. You'll need to pull the neutral (4 wires total) if you install a plug, just the 240V hots (plus ground) for a hard wired wall charger due to recent changes in the code made to prevent homeowners from using the ground wire as the neutral when plugging a new electric range in in the garage, I guess.

With a 60A breaker and #6 copper you can charge a present day car at 44 miles of range per hour, plenty for a home charger for any car on the horizon. If you need to power a semi, then all bets are off!

The #6 wire needs to be rated for 90 deg C operation for that maximum draw. NM cable is usually only 60 deg so would need to be derated. THHN in conduit is fine-- and if you put in a big enough conduit you can easily pull bigger wire if needed in the future.

[Prashun Patel]

I am doing exactly what you want to do.
My ev has different plug adapters that go into the charger.

I got the one that supports 20 amps and fits my NEMA plug. It works great. It’s not super fast, but it will do about 50pct a charge on my model 3 overnight. Good enough for me especially since I use about 10pct charge a day.

[Jim Becker]

I see zero issue with you providing a circuit that is up-sized for the EV charging but also used to run a machine during the day as an alternative use.

Now, you might want to consider having said electrician put in a sub-panel instead of just one 240 circuit so you have more flexibility with adding other 240v tools. You may be able to get a tax benefit on at least some of the cost because of the EV incentives, depending on where you live.

[Greg Funk]

$$$ is the reason. Copper is expensive. The braker is sized to the wire. The motor starter/overloads protect the motor.

You could hard wire you table saw to a 100A branch circuit if you wanted.Not without violating the electric code. The circuit breaker provides short circuit protection for the branch wiring and there are maximum breaker sizes defined in table 430.52 of the NEC. For normal, inverse-time, circuit breakers the max size is 2.5 x FLA of the motor. Max circuit breaker size for a 3HP (FLA 17A) motor is 42.5A which can be bumped up to 45A.

To the OP, if your car is a hybrid, 30A should be plenty for charging. I just use a 20A plug in my garage for my Tesla and it's fine for normal use; a 40 mile commute takes about 3:30 to recharge from a 20A, 240V outlet. If I was frequently driving longer distances I could wire in a larger outlet but haven't had the need so far.

[George Yetka]

May wanna check your breaker to, It may be a 2 pole 20.

[Adam Herman]

Well designed EVs (can't speak to GM/Chrysler products)

:rolleyes:

The charge adaptor on the wall will tell the car how much it can supply and the car will set its current limit to that number. this is one reason there are communication pins on the charge connecter. all cars will do it, its part of the spec.

anyway.
yes, you should install a nema 14/50 outlet. Its pretty much the standard now for 220 volt stuff. overall the cost will not be that much more than running a 30 amp circuit.

we have installed a 14/50 for our Chevy Volt in 3 houses now and I also use it for welding and the drill press. Volts draw a max of about 15 amps on 220. a device takes as many amps as it needs, and any dead short will blow the breaker even if its a 50 amp breaker and a 15 amp device.


yes, i would put in a nema 14/50

[Adam Herman]

Not without violating the electric code. The circuit breaker provides short circuit protection for the branch wiring and there are maximum breaker sizes defined in table 430.52 of the NEC. For normal, inverse-time, circuit breakers the max size is 2.5 x FLA of the motor. Max circuit breaker size for a 3HP (FLA 17A) motor is 42.5A which can be bumped up to 45A.

To the OP, if your car is a hybrid, 30A should be plenty for charging. I just use a 20A plug in my garage for my Tesla and it's fine for normal use; a 40 mile commute takes about 3:30 to recharge from a 20A, 240V outlet. If I was frequently driving longer distances I could wire in a larger outlet but haven't had the need so far.

just to make up the part left out, hard wired stuff follows a different standard than an outlet.

[Patrick Varley]

Agree with Jim. If they're already going to have to make a new run for the charger, I'd look hard at just having them put in a sub panel, then you can have individual breakers for the charger and saw (or whatever else) off the sub panel.

Going to pay more in materials, but the labor probably isn't much different and the flexibility for the future could be worth it (including an easy way to add a second EV charger).

[George Yetka]

That does make sense and you could always run oversized aluminum with the current prices of copper. Get yourself a 100 amp sub panel for the garage then it will be relatively cheep to run out everything from there. You will also get to reuse all the 10 gauge in the current run

[Aaron Heck]

thanks everyone. Garage already has a sub panel, so I guess I'm 1 step ahead. Its actually detached from the house and there are 7 single pole slots available. Biggest things I have in this panel now is 30amp for the water heater (for the finished room's bathroom above the garage) and a 20amp for the mini-split AC. and then a bunch of other single pole breakers for the lights and garage door openers, etc.

it's a 3 car garage and the panel is on 1 of the sides. I think I'm ok with 1-2 of the 220v outlets on that same side of the garage as I can easily move tools around. This will make for a super short run of maybe 5-10 feet from the panel so hopefully this'll be a pretty easy job.

Before I knew I could run both tools and charger on the same circuit (at diff times) I had found this charger, and a couple others, with selectable amperage. I thought that was pretty neat and thought I could just select the 24v one if I was limited to a 30amp circuit. they do have one with a 14-50 plug, too.

https://grizzl-e.com/home-products/

[Greg Funk]

just to make up the part left out, hard wired stuff follows a different standard than an outlet.I was responding to the comment that you could hard wire a tablesaw to a 100A breaker.

[Patrick Varley]

thanks everyone. Garage already has a sub panel, so I guess I'm 1 step ahead. Its actually detached from the house and there are 7 single pole slots available. Biggest things I have in this panel now is 30amp for the water heater (for the finished room's bathroom above the garage) and a 20amp for the mini-split AC. and then a bunch of other single pole breakers for the lights and garage door openers, etc.

it's a 3 car garage and the panel is on 1 of the sides. I think I'm ok with 1-2 of the 220v outlets on that same side of the garage as I can easily move tools around. This will make for a super short run of maybe 5-10 feet from the panel so hopefully this'll be a pretty easy job.

Before I knew I could run both tools and charger on the same circuit (at diff times) I had found this charger, and a couple others, with selectable amperage. I thought that was pretty neat and thought I could just select the 24v one if I was limited to a 30amp circuit. they do have one with a 14-50 plug, too.

https://grizzl-e.com/home-products/

Oh, then you're halfway home. But with that much room in the panel, I'd still consider just having them run two separate breakers. Won't add very much if it's a short run, and while you might not use the charger and saw at the same time, you may at some point use two 220v tools at the same time (e.g. dust collector and anything else).

[Jared Sankovich]

I was responding to the comment that you could hard wire a tablesaw to a 100A breaker.

We don't know if the op has a 2hp grizzly or a 7.5hp delta saw.

[Adam Herman]

there is absolutely no reason to have a charger with selectable max amperage. the car will only take what it can use, and will adjust to the charge curve of the battery. a higher amp capacity charge cord will just work with more and faster charging cars.

remember, the box on the wall is just an adaptor that can talk to the car and switch some relays, the car has the actual "charger". the thing on the wall asks if the car is ready to charge, and if the car says yes, it hits the relays and sends 220v to the car. the car uses whatever current it needs up to the max of the adaptor.

[Greg Funk]

We don't know if the op has a 2hp grizzly or a 7.5hp delta saw.True, we don't. The point was there are limits on the maximum size of the breaker used to protect the circuit.

You're also not supposed to chop the plug off a toaster and replace it with a 50A plug so you can use a dryer outlet. It will work but it's not as safe as it could be and if you have a fire caused by the undersized cord burning up the insurance company wouldn't need to pay.

[Greg Funk]

there is absolutely no reason to have a charger with selectable max amperage. the car will only take what it can use, and will adjust to the charge curve of the battery. a higher amp capacity charge cord will just work with more and faster charging cars.

remember, the box on the wall is just an adaptor that can talk to the car and switch some relays, the car has the actual "charger". the thing on the wall asks if the car is ready to charge, and if the car says yes, it hits the relays and sends 220v to the car. the car uses whatever current it needs up to the max of the adaptor.Charger's have adjustable/selectable max amperage to allow them to be plugged into circuits with different capabilities from 120/15A to 220/50A. Depending on what you select the 'wall charger' will communicate the max value to the car's actual charger. With Tesla's chargers the selection is either made at installation or by the plug adapter (for the mobile connector).

[Jim Becker]

Some of the charging stations also adapt for charging two EVs simultaneously in a residential situation.

[Alan Lightstone]

there is absolutely no reason to have a charger with selectable max amperage. the car will only take what it can use, and will adjust to the charge curve of the battery. a higher amp capacity charge cord will just work with more and faster charging cars.

remember, the box on the wall is just an adaptor that can talk to the car and switch some relays, the car has the actual "charger". the thing on the wall asks if the car is ready to charge, and if the car says yes, it hits the relays and sends 220v to the car. the car uses whatever current it needs up to the max of the adaptor.
My friend wishes that was true. And believe me, I'm no Tesla basher (I'm on my second one - a Plaid), but my friend just had his Tesla Model S, for whatever reason, decide to try to charge 80 amps on his NEMA 14-50 receptacle, and it melted the plug and started melting the wire in the wall. The breaker (which was improperly sized by his electrician as 40 amps instead of 50 amps for a NEMA 14-50 outlet) flipped very late, and the wire in the wall was sized for the 40 amp circuit. No one is quite sure why the car kept trying to set itself to 80 amps (it properly worked that way in his old house with the Tesla 80 amp wall charger), but in this new house, after a number of months, one night the car set itself for more than it should have been able to try to draw, and melting/fire resulted.

So I'm pretty happy that in my house I have a Tesla wall charger, with the DIP switches inside that limiting my charging rate, and the car knows that too. So even if the car somehow tried to charge at a higher rate (a choice that shouldn't be allowed on the UI), the charger wouldn't try to provide it.

That being said, I got my wall charger free from Tesla. In my last house I had a NEMA 14-50, which is what I suggest to people to get for their electric cars.

[Mitch schiffer]

As Jim suggested I would at least look at installing a sub panel. With a sub panel you will be future proofed. You could also ad other 220/240v plugs later on if you get other tools that require it.

[Adam Herman]

My friend wishes that was true. And believe me, I'm no Tesla basher (I'm on my second one - a Plaid), but my friend just had his Tesla Model S, for whatever reason, decide to try to charge 80 amps on his NEMA 14-50 receptacle, and it melted the plug and started melting the wire in the wall. The breaker (which was improperly sized by his electrician as 40 amps instead of 50 amps for a NEMA 14-50 outlet) flipped very late, and the wire in the wall was sized for the 40 amp circuit. No one is quite sure why the car kept trying to set itself to 80 amps (it properly worked that way in his old house with the Tesla 80 amp wall charger), but in this new house, after a number of months, one night the car set itself for more than it should have been able to try to draw, and melting/fire resulted.

So I'm pretty happy that in my house I have a Tesla wall charger, with the DIP switches inside that limiting my charging rate, and the car knows that too. So even if the car somehow tried to charge at a higher rate (a choice that shouldn't be allowed on the UI), the charger wouldn't try to provide it.

That being said, I got my wall charger free from Tesla. In my last house I had a NEMA 14-50, which is what I suggest to people to get for their electric cars.

oh damn, well fair enough! sounds like it could be a problem with the adaptor, but who knows. We have always used clipper creek stuff and have not had any issues.

[roger wiegand]

We just installed the Tesla charger, though don't have the car yet. Between last year's tax break, not having to run an extraneous neutral wire, and not having to buy a relatively expensive outlet the wall charger was basically a freebie.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

We sure want an EV, Its doubtful that we will be able to afford one any time soon. I hope the fire on the Felicity Ace was not caused by an EV.

[Jim Becker]

We sure want an EV, Its doubtful that we will be able to afford one any time soon. I hope the fire on the Felicity Ace was not caused by an EV.

There are a number of more affordable EVs debuting this year...Toyota BZ4e/Subaru Solterra, Kia EV6, Hyundai Ionic 5, Nisan Ayria, etc. These will all have the tax incentives that are no longer available with Tesla, too.

[Alan Lightstone]

There are a number of more affordable EVs debuting this year...Toyota BZ4e/Subaru Solterra, Kia EV6, Hyundai Ionic 5, Nisan Ayria, etc. These will all have the tax incentives that are no longer available with Tesla, too.

Yeah, removing the Tesla tax break really is pretty stupid, IMHO. If the goal is to promote purchasing electric cars to help the environment, why penalize purchasers of the by far most common brand of electric cars that people purchase. Oh, my bad, because their factories aren't unionized. Anyway, end of rant.

I really feel that these tax incentives need to be permanent to promote the purchase of EVs. I got the tax break on my first Tesla. Didn't get it on my second one. I'll live, but I wonder how many people couldn't afford a Tesla without one, and bought an ICE car. How does that help society?

I loved that KIA EV6 robot dog commercial during the Super Bowl. Really felt it was the best. The car looks interesting too. The new Mercedes EQS looks very impressive. I bet the interior is far nicer than the Tesla. But it also won't come cheap. The sweet spot is in the affordable SUV market. Tesla may corner that with the Model Y, but it will be very, very nice to have good competition in the market. Chevy promoting a car that doesn't exist in their Super Bowl commercial (the electric Silverado) and won't until at least 2024 was virtue signaling at its best.

Volkswagen/Audi etc. will be huge players in this, and may someday be the World's leader in EV production. I wouldn't bet against them.

[Jim Becker]

Alan, I agree that the current method of expiring the incentives based on volume needs to be changed and there's hope for that, both for EVs and solar incentives in planned legislation. We really can't go beyond that here due to restrictions on political discussion. There will come a time where there will no longer be a need for incentives, of course.

I'll likely be going with the Solterra or it's BZ4x sister worst case. We're a Subaru household, but I could be happy with Ariya, EV6 or Ionic 5 which are all in the same basic competitive sweet spot.

[Bill Dufour]

real stick welders want a 50 amp receptacle, but you are allowed to use 40 amp wire since it is not rated as a continuous load. I would recommend a real 50 amp outlet so you can use a welder or car charger. Make sure the electrician wires it for the full 50 amps.
Sounds like it may be a good idea to run 30-50 amps to a sub panel on the opposite side of the garage. Watch craig's list for used wire and panels. Even ebay can be a good price if shipping is rerasonable.
Bill D

[Rod Sheridan]

real stick welders want a 50 amp receptacle, but you are allowed to use 40 amp wire since it is not rated as a continuous load. I would recommend a real 50 amp outlet so you can use a welder or car charger. Make sure the electrician wires it for the full 50 amps.
Sounds like it may be a good idea to run 30-50 amps to a sub panel on the opposite side of the garage. Watch craig's list for used wire and panels. Even ebay can be a good price if shipping is rerasonable.
Bill D

Hi Bill, it depends upon the welder duty cycle, in Canada my 50 ampere circuit for the welder has 10AWG wire…….Rod.

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Bill, it depends upon the welder duty cycle, in Canada my 50 ampere circuit for the welder has 10AWG wire…….Rod.

There must be more to the story. I'd never wire a 50 amp outlet with 10 gauge wire because someone might come along (after I'm gone) and want to use it for 50 amps. I know you're very careful, Rod, so there must be more to that story.

Mike

[Dan Friedrichs]

My friend wishes that was true. And believe me, I'm no Tesla basher (I'm on my second one - a Plaid), but my friend just had his Tesla Model S, for whatever reason, decide to try to charge 80 amps on his NEMA 14-50 receptacle, and it melted the plug and started melting the wire in the wall. The breaker (which was improperly sized by his electrician as 40 amps instead of 50 amps for a NEMA 14-50 outlet) flipped very late, and the wire in the wall was sized for the 40 amp circuit. No one is quite sure why the car kept trying to set itself to 80 amps (it properly worked that way in his old house with the Tesla 80 amp wall charger), but in this new house, after a number of months, one night the car set itself for more than it should have been able to try to draw, and melting/fire resulted.

So I'm pretty happy that in my house I have a Tesla wall charger, with the DIP switches inside that limiting my charging rate, and the car knows that too. So even if the car somehow tried to charge at a higher rate (a choice that shouldn't be allowed on the UI), the charger wouldn't try to provide it.

That being said, I got my wall charger free from Tesla. In my last house I had a NEMA 14-50, which is what I suggest to people to get for their electric cars.

That's a bizarre (and scary) story. But you're saying there was a 40A breaker, wire sized to 40A, a 50A receptacle, and a load drawing 80A that didn't trip the breaker? That seems like the breaker was faulty.

[Alan Lightstone]

That's a bizarre (and scary) story. But you're saying there was a 40A breaker, wire sized to 40A, a 50A receptacle, and a load drawing 80A that didn't trip the breaker? That seems like the breaker was faulty.

Absolutely. Plus some software issue with the car that was supposed to have known that the maximum it could draw in that NEMA 14-50 outlet was 40 amps, not the 80 that it drew.

[Rod Sheridan]

There must be more to the story. I'd never wire a 50 amp outlet with 10 gauge wire because someone might come along (after I'm gone) and want to use it for 50 amps. I know you're very careful, Rod, so there must be more to that story.

Mike

Hi Mike, it’s marked for welder use only.

Because of the low duty cycle (20% if I remember correctly), that’s what the CEC allows for transformer welders.

When I move I’ll probably just reduce the breaker size as that will be easier than removing the wire…..Regards, Rod

[John Lifer]

Being in the garage, a potentially wet area as far as the electric code goes, doesn't this outlet need to be a GFCI? Just wondering.

[Bill Dufour]

I have no idea if welder outlets need a gfci or not. In theory they are completely safe, total electrical isolation from ground or neutral planes. They use arc welders on ships in the rain floating on salt water. I can not think of a more likely electrocution hazard then that.
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

MY mil's house had a nice feature at the garage main panel. they ran two empty plastic conduits out the top of the box through the top stud and a few inches into the attic before drywalling. Makes it easy to add a few circuits into the garage or where ever. Very low cost with plastic smurf tube.
Bill D

[Alan Lightstone]

Being in the garage, a potentially wet area as far as the electric code goes, doesn't this outlet need to be a GFCI? Just wondering.

If you are referring to my friend's NEMA 14-50 outlet, yes by code it was supposed to be. But it wasn't, and he didn't know better until I told him, but the electrician who wired the new construction house (built last year) certainly should have.

[Rollie Meyers]

$$$ is the reason. Copper is expensive. The braker is sized to the wire. The motor starter/overloads protect the motor.

You could hard wire you table saw to a 100A branch circuit if you wanted.

I would disagree with that, motors do have different rules allowing wiring & fuse or circuit breaker uses not allowed for branch circuits, but what is allowed depends on motor size, so for example a 5 HP 230V single phase motor circuit would be sized by the values of table 430.248 which is 28A, 125% of that is 35A, and a inverse time circuit breaker is allowed to be sized at 250% of full load current, which is 70A, most circuit breakers used in residential are inverse time, so a 70A breaker with 10 AWG THWN conductors would be compliant, if NM cable "Romex®" it would have to be 8 AWG. The reason this is allowed if the motor has overload protection it protects the motor & the breaker is just for short circuit protection, and the values in 310.15(B)(16) are allowed to be used so the 75° column lists 10 AWG THWN at 35A.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I hope the fire on the Felicity Ace was not caused by an EV.

Lithium and Water = Trouble. The sinking of the Felicity Ace is going to be a big problem.

[Alan Lightstone]

Lithium and Water = Trouble. The sinking of the Felicity Ace is going to be a big problem.

Being on the bottom of the Atlantic, now, unfortunately we'll never know the cause.

The rate of car fires in ICE vehicles is actually higher than that of electric vehicles. Of course, that's on land. Can't think of a reasonable cause of a fire in an ICE car being transported on a ship on the ocean, so those pesky lithium batteries certainly are an obvious, but no longer provable, cause.

Gonna be one heck of a huge insurance claim. Could be half a billion. 4000+ cars on board. And those Bentleys and Lamborghinis aren't exactly cheap.

[Greg Funk]

Being on the bottom of the Atlantic, now, unfortunately we'll never know the cause.

The rate of car fires in ICE vehicles is actually higher than that of electric vehicles. Of course, that's on land. Can't think of a reasonable cause of a fire in an ICE car being transported on a ship on the oceanA small fuel leak and an ignition source is all it takes to get started. Once started the cars are packed in tightly so not always easy to extinguish.