Let's talk vises

[Richard Hutchings]

Now that my saw vise is about done, I want to upgrade my vise for resawing. I've been considering a leg vise but the L-vises look pretty good as well. Rob Cosman seems to like his. I just don't know how difficult it would be to adopt it to my bench. Which one holds better?

[steven c newman]

I use my leg vise...
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I used a c clamp to keep the board steady...at that angle. Saw is a D-8, 5-1/2ppi Thumbhole saw.
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Wood was 4/4 Ash...

[Richard Hutchings]

Such a simple solution, thank you Steven.

[Richard Hutchings]

We didn't to far with this, I wonder why. Here's a specific question. I have a tail vise on my bench, it didn't come with any instructions and there's very little instruction to be found even now, 25 years later. What I did find is that the L part is not for clamping and should have some sort of sliding bar attached to it. I've always had trouble keeping the jaw from racking and I wonder about installing this now. In addition, not having any instruction, I did a real crappy job of building it and am considering re-building and using hardwood instead of construction lumber.

[chris carter]

If you are resawing with a hand saw, then just about any vise will do. If you are resawing with a gigantic Roubo, then I would recommend a leg vise because you need massive clamping force. That said, I don’t have any kind of vise on the front of my bench because I like the front of my bench totally clean. I have a twin screw end vise. It works fine for resawing, but the fact that I’m at the end of the bench sawing perpendicular means that the bench wants to swing. If I had a leg vise that would not happen. It’s not a lot of movement, maybe a few inches after resawing a board. But its’ a heavy bench and a bit of a pain to move a few inches back. To resolve this issue, when resawing, I throw an extra 80lbs of weight on the shelf at that end of the bench.

[Tom Bender]

I've never resawn by hand, that's a job for a band saw, but to each his own method. Anyway I have the twin screw on my older bench, across the end, full width. Seems like it would be excellent for resawing. The last 1/4" would be different but possible. A leg vice seems a little more difficult, actually any other standard vice seems less convenient.

[steven c newman]

Depends on the width of the board being resawn...and..how far the end vise will open....and <6" is about the limit for me...
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And, it will pop open when done....as long as you saw from both ends

[Luke Dupont]

If you are resawing with a hand saw, then just about any vise will do. If you are resawing with a gigantic Roubo, then I would recommend a leg vise because you need massive clamping force. That said, I don’t have any kind of vise on the front of my bench because I like the front of my bench totally clean. I have a twin screw end vise. It works fine for resawing, but the fact that I’m at the end of the bench sawing perpendicular means that the bench wants to swing. If I had a leg vise that would not happen. It’s not a lot of movement, maybe a few inches after resawing a board. But its’ a heavy bench and a bit of a pain to move a few inches back. To resolve this issue, when resawing, I throw an extra 80lbs of weight on the shelf at that end of the bench.

A moxon vise along the face of the bench seems like it'd be perfect for resawing.

You can make them removeable so they just sit on the top of the bench, but you'd have to clamp it down exceedingly well for resawing. Not sure how doable that is. Would potentially save the OP from having to make a major change to their bench design though.

[Tom Bussey]

Are you asking about shoulder vise? I prefer a shoulder vise anytime over a leg vise. Are we talking something like this?

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[Richard Hutchings]

Yes, you think this is better than a leg vise? I like this style.

[Mark e Kessler]

I like a leg vise for what you are talking about, here is mine its with Benchcrafted hardware and works great one flick of the wrist and it opens fully open or closed and id holds like nobody’s business. I can’t remember what i paid but it’s worth every penny, I think there are other makers out there and I have seen some folks make their own for less money but won’t work as nice as the BC but you may be ok with that. Lvises droop over time at least in my experience and unless you are building a new bench difficult to retrofit, a leg vice would be easier to retrofit.

luke mentioned a Maxon and that could work but a removable one might put the work two high, i made one for dovetailing. If you do this a lot maybe make a small super heavy purpose built for resawing by hand with construction lumber?

don’t have a great pic of the maxon but I do of my basenji using the leg vise, lol

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[Derek Cohen]

Now that my saw vise is about done, I want to upgrade my vise for resawing. I've been considering a leg vise but the L-vises look pretty good as well. Rob Cosman seems to like his. I just don't know how difficult it would be to adopt it to my bench. Which one holds better?

Richard, as you can see from the replies, there are many personal choices. What I will add is that I would not be swayed by Rob Cosman's "L-vise". He does not use it for re-sawing. Personally, I would also find this style of vise clumsy for dovetailing although, of course, he is expert at this. I just cannot imagine having to lean across a bench to dovetail. It must feel awkward.

Further, I do not see the point of a Moxon built into the face of a bench (I had one about 15 or more years ago). Another name for this is a double screw vise. As a face vise it is fine, but it does not raise the work up for sawing as does a Moxon on the bench.

Paul Sellers seems to do quite well with a Record metal vise. I doubt that he resaw off camera using this method (he owns a bandsaw).

My preference is a leg vise + sliding deadman (with a clamp).

Re-sawing needs firm clamping, with quick and easy re-positioning. Choose something that does this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Bender]

As I said, my old bench has a twin screw vise. It's a great concept if you have access all around your bench. But the implementation left me wanting better, so I built this.

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The vise is integral to the bench. It opens 44" on rack gears. Jaws are replaceable and held with magnets. These jaws have leather faces and grip like tiger paws, firm but gently. The sliding wedge allows for angling the face a little, very handy. The rack gears carry stock without marking it. No handle sticking from the face to block access to the work by poking me in the shorts.

The weight and rope keeps it from spinning the gearbox backward. I was surprised when the forces caused the gears to spin backward. This crude fix works so well that I have not changed it.

474271 Here I'm flattening a board. I have put a prop under it.

Hmm...Can't seem to remove the irrelevant pic of my machinist's vise

[steven c newman]

Bench used in the Dungeon Woodworking Shop is just 16"deep, counting the toolwell and chisel rack....is 54" long...stands 34" tall....been in USE for over 7 years. 1 end vise, 1 leg vise, and 1 Crochet.

I use what I have on hand, built to fit into the space I have in the shop. Nothing fancy or "Alter-like" just a plain,old WORK bench..

[Tom Bussey]

Both Rob Cosman and Frank Klausz use a shoulder vises for cutting dove tails. Frank is probably better known for dove tails, more than even Rob is. I agree with Derek in that at my age I do not like the reach when cutting dove tails. But I do disagree with e Deric in that I do have my moxon vise built into my bench. I love the shoulder vise for many reasons and I do not use my leg vise much even though it is set up for left hand work and given the fact that I am left handed. I did not check on the price of Bench Crafted's vise screw not to mention the chris -cross, but my shoulder screw came from Lee Valley and cost $36.90 and My tail vise hardware also came from Lee Valley and cost $89.50. My leg vise on the Roubo side of my bench is a shoulder vise screw and my leg vise is from an auction and cost less than ten dollars.

The vise can be added to the bench It will take an afternoon but it is not complicated. But this is not the place for how so let me knw if some would like to read about.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to bench vises. It all is determined by the type of work one does and usually what catches you eye in the first place is what is right for you. On this forum it is the Roubo bench, but it is not my choice.

Should vise during construction

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Leg vise during construction

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Building moxon into bench during construction

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and picture of the wagon vise

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and the picture of the front.

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.
So to answer your original question, either will work. Some have face vises and will say that they are the way to go .Many years ago I watch a video Frank Klausz did on finishing wood and then on cutting a dovetail drawer and I will admit that he influenced me and I adopted his bench and have never looked back. That was over 35 years ago and I have never looked back.

Many will disagree with me, especially Roubo owners but that is just fine with me. Only you can decide what vise vises, are right for you. If you want help adding a shoulder vise please let me know and I will help in anyway I can.

[Tom Bussey]

My computer locked up during my reply and when I restored it I had all the pictures but if you click on the attachment they will come up.

[Clifford McGuire]

My computer locked up during my reply and when I restored it I had all the pictures but if you click on the attachment they will come up.

I'm getting 'Invalid attachmen t specified' when I click on the attachments.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm getting 'Invalid attachmen t specified' when I click on the attachments.

Same here.

jtk

[Tom Bussey]

Shoulder vise during construction

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leg vise during construction

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Building moxon vise into bench at build.

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And a picture of my wagon vise

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[Tom Bussey]

A picture of the front and pictures of the front with the Moxon finished.

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Please remember that this is in response to the original post about sawing tenons. And that in the picture of the front there are several holes in the tops face . Three are for the moxon vise and the others are for holdfasts. the board can be clamped straight or at an angle using the shoulder vise and holdfasts. If holes would be places in a Roubo type then a leg vise would work even better also.

[Richard Hutchings]

After watching this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG5V5LszdJQ&t=1247s) video, it got me thinking about a built in Moxon vise. In the video, she used square nuts mortised into the side of the portable bench. I could easily add that to my bench and never have to store a Moxon again and it would always be there as a 3rd vise. Maybe I would remove my face vise before installing this. Something to ponder.

[Derek Cohen]

After watching this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG5V5LszdJQ&t=1247s) video, it got me thinking about a built in Moxon vise. In the video, she used square nuts mortised into the side of the portable bench. I could easily add that to my bench and never have to store a Moxon again and it would always be there as a 3rd vise. Maybe I would remove my face vise before installing this. Something to ponder.

Richard, I will respond to this, although I am really venting since these videos really irk me.

Firstly, Tamar's video is a rehash of a rehash or a rehash of the Moxon by BenchCraft. This video is clickbait. I really have no idea how much actual woodwork knowledge and experience Tamar has, but she has come up on YouTube in the past few years, and appears to make a living out of clickbait videos.

Secondly, I have long advised against a table attached to a Moxon (or a Moxon built into the face of a bench, ala double screw). The reason is simple - it placed the pin board flush with the top of the chop, and you will score it with a knife when transferring marks from the tail board. If you can live with a tatty chop, then by all means ... Otherwise raise the work piece up off the chop (with a spacer), but then you no longer have any use for the table.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Scott Winners]

Looking forward to Derek's reasoned, experienced response. I struggle with sawing fussy stuff at my bench. My personal take, with my eyes and my back, is my Moxon (when I get around to building it) is going to have the top of the vise very near my nipple height so I don't have to bend. The older I get, the less I like to bend.

[Richard Hutchings]

I'm with you Scott, I really should build a normal moxon for that reason.

Derek, have you seen my bench? It isn't exactly a showpiece. As for click bait, yeah the photo of that beautiful bench drew me right in and I had considered it as well but as it is I hate dragging out the pipe clamp Moxon I built. Maybe if I were to build a nice one with good Benchcrafted hardware, I might like it a bit more. I hate my front vise and that may because of the way I installed it. I ruined the bottom of a Veritas BU plane on it. All my vises need some TLC and a good start might be removing the face vise and replacing it with a better one which I have on a shelf. It isn't a quick release but there's no metal near the work surface.

[Richard Hutchings]

A picture of the front and pictures of the front with the Moxon finished.

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Please remember that this is in response to the original post about sawing tenons. And that in the picture of the front there are several holes in the tops face . Three are for the moxon vise and the others are for holdfasts. the board can be clamped straight or at an angle using the shoulder vise and holdfasts. If holes would be places in a Roubo type then a leg vise would work even better also.

That's the setup I want. Beautiful.

[Richard Hutchings]

I was just looking at the WR Moxon hardware and there's a considerable savings. Have any of you used it? It actually looks nicer.

[Richard Hutchings]

The vise can be added to the bench It will take an afternoon but it is not complicated. But this is not the place for how so let me knw if some would like to read about.

any will disagree with me, especially Roubo owners but that is just fine with me. Only you can decide what vise vises, are right for you. If you want help adding a shoulder vise please let me know and I will help in anyway I can.

I would absolutely like to do this and your help would be much appreciated. I have to finish making my saw and plane tils plus chisel rack and stuff. I'm in desperate need of organization. Maybe a couple months down the road, I'll be ready for this.

As for my re-sawing, after giving it a lot of thought, I think I'll just use my bandsaw and just cut the width down to 6". I'll be left with 1" x 2" x 20" rosewood for making chisel handles or something.

[lou Brava]

A picture of the front and pictures of the front with the Moxon finished.

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Please remember that this is in response to the original post about sawing tenons. And that in the picture of the front there are several holes in the tops face . Three are for the moxon vise and the others are for holdfasts. the board can be clamped straight or at an angle using the shoulder vise and holdfasts. If holes would be places in a Roubo type then a leg vise would work even better also.

Wish I would have seen this a month ago or waited to start my bench ! I just finished my 1st bench and didn't build any vise into it I bought a quick release 9" vise from Rockler. I know now I need a Moxon or shoulder vise and really like the way yous looks. It seems if you have a Moxon would you need the shoulder ? My bench is pretty short just over 6' so I'm thinking a built in Moxon on the end which would give probably about 18" or so between the screws. I don't think I'd like the permanent hardware on the front as it may get the way when not in use.

Derek C, I've only cut 2 dovetails and don't really understand the "tatty chop" I know after using my bench a few times I'll figure out. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I used the cheapest wood I could find for the laminated top and if it gets marked up It won't be the end of the world.

One thing I learned was the incredible amount of time it takes (or took me) to build a bench if I had known a hand cut M&T joint was going to take 1-2 hrs each I would have used a better quality wood ! The expression of "gold plating a turd" really fits my bench.
Thanks to everyone here posting up lots of great info.

[Tom Bussey]

I built my first moxon vise from the plane from bench crafted. It turned out to be quite heavy. Why? because the back needs to be thick to prevent the back from bowing during clamping. Bench Crafted's spacing is 24 inches but most work in a moxon vise is far less than 24 inches.

One of the hardest things to have in a shop is storage. At least in my shop. Stuff that is stored under the bench tends to stay there and gathers dust. As one (in my case ) gets older it gets harder to bend over so, it is harder to get something stores back a ways under the bench. So I put drawer under the bench so I can keep the things I use at the bench at the bench. My dovetail saw is in the second drawer down on the left side. With the drawers under the bench it made it harder to clamp stuff to the bench top.

Well I sold that bench which was my third and the one pictured is my fourth.

When I build the forth I captures 3 nuts in the bench top which is a little over 4 inches thick. I used the bench as a stiffener for the back of the vise. I screw in the 2 studs slide the back jaw on and secure it with 2 nuts. If you look closely at the pictures above you will see the development for the height of the actual vise jaw. There was quite a few sawing cuts to get the top height just right. If you build a clamp on vise to some plans then your body has to make an adjustment for sawing. if you build the vise with the sawing heights established then what is the difference and as far as


When I build this bench I worked around all the short comings I had experience with other benches. I buried 3 nut when building this bench so I could shorten up the distance for smaller pieces and therefore make the front vise out of 4/4ths material instead of 6/4ths or 8/4ths material. Because the bench side stiffens the back jaw it to can be made out of 4/4 material. The top of the jaw was made level after it slid over the studs and keys were installed in the back vise so the board could be squared up with the top without getting a square and every thing is true to the eye for the best cutting. One can't see square if the piece is out of square with horizontal.

It is easier to store 2 flat boards than a whole vise. The metal parts are in a drawer under the bench. Since I do not use the moxon vise all that much the metal is stores on the back side so I do have to walk around the bench to get it. Stuff that is use more often is stored in the front.

Derek doesn't like the vise built into the bench but whether it is clamped on or clamped to the side is a moot point in my opinion. The top of the vise is well above the top of the bench so I do not understand his argument about marking or cutting into the chop. Marking and cutting will be the same whether or not it is built in or clamped on. The rest is geography.

I do no understand Derek's reasoning, but I defend his right to make and use his vise anyway he wants to. I built mine into my bench because that is how I wanted to do it. I didn't ask anyone for anyone's permission or for their opinion. nor did I research to see if it had been done that way in the past. I have a nasty habit of evaluating every thing I do to see if I can do it faster or better or to avoid problems I encountered in the past so I don't repeat them in the future.