SCM Model ?

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hey Guys, what would the current equivalent to a 1997 SCM SI16N be? Looking at a used machine and don't know a lot about them. Anything to note about this particular model? Thanks.

[Erik Loza]

The typical used sliders stuff:

-All crosscut fence flip stops present?
-Any play in the sliding table bearing system?
-Rip fence present?

Anything electrical or motor-related can probably be repaired locally or suitable parts sourced out independently. Ditto for saw arbor bearings and drive belts. Be aware that with a machine of that vintage, major structural parts will almost certainly be unavailable from the manufacturer. That is not just the Italians, it goes for anyone. I'm sure you've heard this before: Used equipment and especially really old used equipment (which 1997 would qualify) can either be a hidden gem or a nightmare. Choose wisely.

Erik

[Phillip Mitchell]

If it’s the one on the auction site, it looks like a pretty nice example from what I can see. The quality / clarity of the photos leave a bit to be desired but it all looks like it’s there. Both flip stops, OEM clamp/hold down, full rip fence, blade guard.

I would say that buying a slider out a working shop that’s upgrading is not foolproof and should not mean forgoing an inspection of critical points, but is a better starting place than a lot of equipment that has been pushed into a corner years ago and “ran last time we used it.”

If I was local and looking for a slider I would certainly give this one a look if you have the space in the shop and means to move it. Takes up a pretty big footprint, but I would certainly not turn my nose up at a well kept SI16. I have an older (than this) SCM short stroke sliding saw and wish I had the room for a 10’ slider that was a decade or 2 newer.

Does anyone know how this era SI16 compares with the Hydro 3200 aside from the hydraulic blade controls of the Hydro. Same build quality? That’s another model that will pop up from time to time along with the SI16 for reasonable prices for a 10’ slider.

[Frank Nadell]

I don"t know where the SCM is posted, but maybe an Altendorf in Connecticut peeks your interest.


https://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/534522.html

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I don"t know where the SCM is posted, but maybe an Altendorf in Connecticut peeks your interest.


https://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/534522.html
Thanks frank, I've seen that one, I think it's a little much considering you can find f45s for similar... I'm looking at one of those also a 97 I think...

[Albert Lee]

short answer, possibly current Class line.

Definitely not Nova
Definitely not L'Invinbicibile - they had L'Invincibile since 1952

[Kurt Wyberanec]

short answer, possibly current Class line.

Definitely not Nova
Definitely not L'Invinbicibile - they had L'Invincibile since 1952

So in between the 2 then eh? That's somewhere around the current 20k model yes?

[Albert Lee]

So in between the 2 then eh? That's somewhere around the current 20k model yes?

I think so.

Nova is more like SI12 back in mid 1990.

SI 16 has a lot of variants, stepping up from SI16 is L'Invincibile.

Have a look on this web site below, even have brochures from 1990.

https://wtp.hoechsmann.com/en/lexikon/11166/si_16sf

[Phillip Mitchell]

Albert,

I thought that they moved away from the L’invincibile line/name in the 80s and 90s and didn’t bring it back into marketing/models until sometime in the last ~ 20 years? Maybe it was different in different markets?

Was there an SCMI model that was above this in terms of price/build at the time it was new?

[David Kumm]

I think the Hydro 3200 was the top end in the 1990s. A Hydro or SI16 new would be in the 20K range at least. While any used machine is risky, there are lots of used sliders and prices make them a compelling economic option. $5-7K can get you a pretty decent 16" three speed with scoring 7.5-9 hp machine. Single phase and smaller 12" blade machines tend to be higher as they have a larger market. I've bought two machines for a total of 5K and sold parts plus making a complete machine. A 5-7K machine should be in quite good condition. An Altendorf is a step up if the ways are steel or not worn if phenolic. A used Martin will be more like 10K but 30K + new. The used machines won't have some of the nice user friendly features of new but the builds are heavier. The advantage of SCM is that there are a million used machines out there. New parts are generally way to expensive to make sense.

When you buy used sliders you need to assume 2K in repair and additional expenses when you price. That generally takes care of unknowns if the machine looks decent to begin with. If you have the ability to deal with machines, used sliders and jointers are two of the best bets economically. Dave

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I think the Hydro 3200 was the top end in the 1990s. A Hydro or SI16 new would be in the 20K range at least. While any used machine is risky, there are lots of used sliders and prices make them a compelling economic option. $5-7K can get you a pretty decent 16" three speed with scoring 7.5-9 hp machine. Single phase and smaller 12" blade machines tend to be higher as they have a larger market. I've bought two machines for a total of 5K and sold parts plus making a complete machine. A 5-7K machine should be in quite good condition. An Altendorf is a step up if the ways are steel or not worn if phenolic. A used Martin will be more like 10K but 30K + new. The used machines won't have some of the nice user friendly features of new but the builds are heavier. The advantage of SCM is that there are a million used machines out there. New parts are generally way to expensive to make sense.

When you buy used sliders you need to assume 2K in repair and additional expenses when you price. That generally takes care of unknowns if the machine looks decent to begin with. If you have the ability to deal with machines, used sliders and jointers are two of the best bets economically. Dave

It's that 2k in expenses that makes me doubtful as to whether it is worth it for me....as it will bring me back to my budget possibly. I understand that I might get a 20k saw for only 8 but with a budget of 10 do I want a 20yr old 20k saw or a new 10k saw with some warranty (I say some because I really don't know how well these companies provide warranty service). It's a tough spot....if I found a good saw that was 5 and put in 1500 then that's pretty significant savings but if it ends up being equal money it's a tough pill to swallow.

This particular Si16 could be one of those cases....seems good....but how much in the end and how much headache not to mention possible down time....I have another Robland on my radar that is in a similar boat.

[Kevin Jenness]

Buying a machine is a bit of a gamble whether old or new. With old gear you need to see if all the parts are there, if they work. if the machine functions at an acceptable level and make your best guess as to what if anything is in danger of failing. You should be able to run the machine amd make some cuts, assess the honesty of the seller and how the machine has been used and maintained. If you don't get a good feeling on any of those points walk away or negotiate an appropriate discount. The good thing is that the kinks should be evident, whereas if a new machine comes with problems it will still be on you or an expensive factory tech to work them out. I have seen more than a few complaints aired here on that score.

On a slider, look at the wear on the ways and assess if that affects the straight and level tracking of the carriage. That is the heart of the saw and if thrashed will be difficult and expensive to repair, not worth doing unless bought at scrap price. Use a straightedge to see if the carriage is parallel to the main table throughout its stroke and look at the support system to see if adjustments can be made. Straightline a couple of full length pieces to see if the edges match up tight together and reef on the carriage to check for play. Check the arbor for runout with a dial indicator. See if the motors have sufficient power and that all the switches work. See if the arbor height and tilt adjustments work smoothly throughout their range and if there is any play in the mounting. Take a look at the wiring to see if the insulation is rotten. Check that the rip fence is straight and square to the table, and the crosscut fence solid with positive stops. Listen for bearing damage. Check the power requirements. There are probably other things I am overlooking, but you get the idea. You want a saw that works, not a project.

My general experience with used machines, which is most of what I have, is that if they are good quality originally and in working order when purchased they generally stay that way. If you don't have the time to suss out a good one or the tolerance for risk that you perceive, order a new machine and hope for the best. But make sure you get what you really need and don't buy something just because you can afford it - buy a saw that will make your work easier and more accurate and make you money enough to justify its purchase.

[Jim Becker]

I really don't know how well these companies provide warranty service

Warranties for most machinery these days that normal humans can afford revolves around parts and there is an expectation that you'll install them should service be required.

[Mark e Kessler]

I was was going to type an objective well thought out response but…lol. Just go buy the 10k slider you will be happy, if you are waiting for someone to see eye to eye with you on a 10k NEW saw I don’t think it is going to happen.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

All good info....I'm still considering a used machine, but am starting to narrow down my "new" list as well. My biggest issue with the used machine is that this will be my first slider and likewise don't have a keen eye to spot the little things that some of pointed out about used machines so it does make it more risky for me.

[Albert Lee]

All good info....I'm still considering a used machine, but am starting to narrow down my "new" list as well. My biggest issue with the used machine is that this will be my first slider and likewise don't have a keen eye to spot the little things that some of pointed out about used machines so it does make it more risky for me.

The only way is to buy something that has not been abused? preferably owner user? not sure if there is such a thing when it comes to professional woodworking machinery... 99% probably used by employee...

[Warren Lake]

after I stopped buying new then used stuff came from different places. The very best was from old Europeans who bought it new and used it their whole lives with smaller shops 3-4 people or less. It worked well the first time buying that way so did it again with the same result. Either they or wives called and asked and offered the machinery. Quality machines, tons of years on then, still a quality machine. Complete with all the pieces they came with. Some of them many pieces. Thats where Ive found the best shape for age. One old SCM had bad wiring, another same machine same age wiring was fine. Not sure maybe an hour or two to replace it and what ive found there ive only ever seen once. Wiring case break down so that the whole outer casing was crumbled away and only a matter of time till it shorted out. Simple and easy fix in that case and lesson learned and I check all wiring now for that. People leave out the learning aspect, its time for sure but learn a bit about the machine is good.

Shop stuff was all different. some shops put more care into the machinery and have a clip board on the side. Buy a machine there still hooked up in a shop with 50-80 employees and a big name and you likely wont get any surprises. The whole shop was running till weeks now vaporizing for whatever reason it became an auction. I stood in enough of those dumbfounded. Huge respect for what they put together and ran for so many years. Felt sad standing in them every time. Then so interesting to see the machinery and layout and how they had worked. European shops and there were a number of them had together shops.

There is more available to you if you are in the trade. Never thought about that but typing that realized it is that way. Buying used for a long time and still learning about it, the odd time the hard way. Sometimes you have to be Colombo. Probably best if you are all the time. Ive done most of it blind and its worked out well. Crashed and burned twice, fixed the first one waiting for info to work on the second. Miss the old auction days you go preview day, take photos digest it all get the list. Then back the next day, you can see how many show up, you can read the audience some amount and then its an adventure.