Other uses for liquid hide glue?

[Mark Katz]

I have one chair to repair so I need to buy a new bottle of liquid hide glue. My previous bottle is several years old so I don't trust it. I probably used it for one simple repair, then it sat on the shelf for years. The same fate is likely for this new bottle. And it's most readily available in 8oz. size.

Can I use this for general glue-ups where I'd normally use Titebond Original or Titebond Extend? Is the glue line really dark? Would I be compromising strength compared to the other glues? Shop furniture? Jigs? Home Furniture? What would you not use it for?

I'd just hate to heave another almost full bottle in a few years.

Mark

[Derek Cohen]

You should be using Titebond LHG for all joinery. This ensures that it can be pulled apart and repaired.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Hughes]

I think titebonds brown glue they claim to be hide glue is junk. Test it and see how well it holds.
Old brown glue is worth mentioning it dries hard. It passes tests.
Good Luck

[Andrew Seemann]

You can use Liquid Hide Glue for anything that doesn't get wet. No need to worry about strength; like most glues for woodworking it is stronger than the wood. I recently tested some I bought a year ago. It took a few minutes of beating the joint with a 16oz hammer to break it apart, and it was the wood that failed not the glue. That said, it does have a shelf life, something like 18 months, after that it can lose strength. I try to buy no more than I can use in a year.

Its main advantage is that is has a long open time and it is quite slick, so it is good for complex glue ups that take time and where you might still be adjusting joints after a few minutes. It doesn't "seize" after a couple minutes like Titebond does (not necessarily good or bad, just helpful/unhelpful in different situations). The other thing is that it tends not to be as finish-phobic as PVA glues, so it is a good choice if you think you will have trouble removing all the glue prior to finishing. It is also easier to unglue joints with heat and moisture than other glues like PVA.

Disadvantages are no water resistance, can be slightly brittle, is sticky and tends to get glue strings all over the place, and some people don't get used to the smell. It also takes longer to cure than PVA glues so you may have to take extra time into account if you have successive glue ups on the same assembly.

Another advantage/disadvantage is that it has less "creep" than PVA, which can be both helpful and unhelpful. Helpful if you are putting something under constant strain, like the bridge of a musical instrument; unhelpful if you have some seasonal movement in something like a wide mortice and tenon joint or dovetail/finger joint and it would be better if the glue allowed a little creep rather than cracking.

[Mark Katz]

Thanks for everyone's replies. On suggestion of Andrew Hughes, I ordered a 5oz bottle of Old Brown Glue. I'll experiment with the remainder once the repair has been made. I'd heard good things about Old Brown Glue in the past but every time I think of glue, Titebond floods my mind.

[Mike Henderson]

One thing to be careful of with hide glue is that it doesn't have a lot of tensile strength, and that's why it's used in stringed instruments.

When a luthier wants to take a violin (for example) apart, they work a pallet knife into an opening between the top and the side of the instrument. Then they carefully work the knife along the glue line prying the top off. The glue breaks free. I talked with a luthier about this one time and he said if they used other glues, such as fish glue, they'd never get the instruments apart.

With modern glues, such as PVA, the glue bond is stronger than the wood. If you used PVA on an instrument and tried to take the top off, you'd break the wood for sure.

I had always wondered how they took a stringed instrument apart. I knew they couldn't use heat or water.

Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

Titebond I is not terribly difficult to reverse with heat and steam. Probably more difficult than hide glue but can’t put hide glue in the pressurized glue tank.

So, I use hide glue anytime I have a complex glue up where I need the glue to help parts slide together.

[Mel Fulks]

Some of the old violins had their tops removed by the maker for slight changes before they even left the shop. Some modern makers still
do that . Even though they are careful to thin down the glue, sometimes they find it difficult to remove a top…and sometimes the top comes
off so easily that the guy is startled.

[Mark Katz]

One thing to be careful of with hide glue is that it doesn't have a lot of tensile strength, and that's why it's used in stringed instruments.

Mike

Thanks for that tip.

Mark

[Robert Engel]

I would never use Titebond LHG simply b/c of the smell.

I've used OBG 2 years past the expiration date and it worked fine. Kept in refrig.

IMO the tightness of the joint determines what glue. If there are gaps I use epoxy. I'm never interesting in taking it apart again.

[Andrew Hughes]

Mike mentioned tensile strength and I’m not sure what that means. I do know that if I take a blob of old brown glue and leave it to dry on a board it will dry hard. Not epoxy hard but much harder then any of the Tite bond glues and almost as hard as Chinese arithmetic.
I heat the stuff I use in a old cheap crock pot.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike mentioned tensile strength and I’m not sure what that means. I do know that if I take a blob of old brown glue and leave it to dry on a board it will dry hard. Not epoxy hard but much harder then any of the Tite bond glues and almost as hard as Chinese arithmetic.
I heat the stuff I use in a old cheap crock block.

Tensile described a force pulling two things apart. So, let's say you glued two small blocks together and then put some kind of hook on each block so that you could pull them apart. The amount of force you had to use to pull them apart is the tensile strength of the glue (or the wood, whichever fails first) in some terms, such as pounds per square inch. Tensile describes tension.

A rope being used to pull something is under tension.

Mike

[Andrew Hughes]

Ok I understand. Have you found titebond to have more tensile strength the old brown glue?
My test have shown its every bit as good.
Esp open pore woods like walnut.

[Mike Henderson]

Ok I understand. Have you found titebond to have more tensile strength the old brown glue?
My test have shown its every bit as good.
Esp open pore woods like walnut.

I certainly have not run any tests but a properly made Titebond glue joint is stronger than the wood, so I'd say that for tension, titebond is stronger.

Mike

[Phil Mueller]

I’ve had good results with Titebond LHG. From full M&T glue ups, to inlays and stringing. I test it before use, but my 18 month old bottle is still going strong. I like it for the extended glue time, that it dries dark, and squeeze out after it’s dried can easily be removed with a damp rag.

[Brian Holcombe]

I wouldn’t expect LHG to be as strong as PVA but many applications do not call for ultimate strength. For a long grain glue up, I normally want ultimate strength but for joinery it varies depending on application.

[Phil Mueller]

Hi Brian! Just wanted to say hello. Hope all is well with you and family and that your business is booming 👍

[Brian Holcombe]

Howdy Phil! Doing good, thank you! Hope you guys are as well!

[Wes Grass]

One thing to be careful of with hide glue is that it doesn't have a lot of tensile strength, and that's why it's used in stringed instruments.

When a luthier wants to take a violin (for example) apart, they work a pallet knife into an opening between the top and the side of the instrument. Then they carefully work the knife along the glue line prying the top off. The glue breaks free. I talked with a luthier about this one time and he said if they used other glues, such as fish glue, they'd never get the instruments apart.

With modern glues, such as PVA, the glue bond is stronger than the wood. If you used PVA on an instrument and tried to take the top off, you'd break the wood for sure.

I had always wondered how they took a stringed instrument apart. I knew they couldn't use heat or water.

Mike


They use heat, and steam, at least on guitars. Works with PVA as well. It's not heat tolerant, which is why you're warned to never leave a guitar in a car trunk. I had an instructor who took 2 to a festival, couple hour drive. The bridges were off both of them when she arrived. No other damage, easily repaired, but she had to borrow a guitar for the weekend.

[Andrew Seemann]

Franklin's Liquid Hide Glue is a bit of an unloved red-headed-step-child in the woodworking, instrument building, and conservation worlds. It seems like any time it is brought up, most everyone disparages it for some reason.

The "modern" woodworkers don't like it because it obviously isn't as good as modern PVA glues (otherwise they would still use hide glue, duh).

Historical purists are offended at even the idea that their sacred hot hide glue would be adulterated in such a way, and it could never have the properties that pure hide glue has (while trading their own special recipes to make their own home made versions, like adding table salt or urea).

Hybrid woodworkers appreciate the properties of hide glue but see the inconvenience of hot hide glue, but it seems like they want something more kitschy than a glue from Franklin you can buy at the hardware store.

None of this changes the fact Franklin LHG is quite functional, convenient, and works well in many situations:)

Post Script: If you ever want to start a fist fight between a group of musical instrument makers, say the word "glue". I've never seen anyone more passionate about a material than them. Way more than guitarists and their nitro/poly finish debate.

[Mel Fulks]

A friend used the liquid ready -made hide glue stuff on a few things and liked it , then had a failure and went back to the real “ hot stuff”
He decided that the chemical that keeps it liquid was what made it fail. I agree and consider it to be in the same class as “school- glue “