Custom doors - build it pre hung?

[andrew whicker]

Hi,

To those of you that have built custom doors and replaced the casing of the old door... (remodel) did you ever try and make the door pre-hung?

cheers,

[Kevin Jenness]

Hi,

To those of you that have built custom doors and replaced the casing of the old door... (remodel) did you ever try and make the door pre-hung?

cheers,

I am guessing you mean replacing the jambs as well as the casings, in which case yes. I always do as much hardware installation in the shop as possible. If the door has to be fit to existing jambs then the hardware will have to be fitted in the field, unless you bring the jamb back to the shop.

[Tom M King]

I've only hung a few hundred doors, but never used a prehung one, and won't.

[andrew whicker]

Yes, sorry, misnomer that I hear when I order door jambs.. so I repeat it and continue the misnomer.

[andrew whicker]

I've done it both ways, I just hate chiseling out the hinges on site..


I think in some respects it is easier to hang non-prehung (less awkward), but like I said.. chiseling pockets out for hinges sucks.

[Paul J Kelly]

I worked for a Custom Door shop for 3 years. The three of us (plus a helper every once in a while) made tens thousands of doors. We made only a handful of them pre-hung. Only ones with radius lock rails and complex sidelights that needed to match perfectly did we make a jam for an pre-hung them in the shop. We did a lot of larger homes with close to a hundred interior doors.

Most finish carpenters are so quick with jigs that they are better equipped to make the overall look of a new home more aesthetically pleasing! We always worried about the use of large casing to solve miss-measured openings.

PK
PKwoodworking

[Phillip Mitchell]

Are you asking if you do the hinge and strike mortising in the jambs ahead of time in the shop prior to install (?) then the answer is yes, whenever possible. I don’t always do the strike side ahead but will always try and do hinge mortising / hanging ahead of time.

Having to fit a new slab to an existing jamb is not something I would ever recommend, but I suppose there are times when that may need to occur (historical work?) Mortising a jamb for hinges, etc after it’s vertical and installed in the opening is certainly possible but a bit of a nightmare, not as accurate and waste of efficiency, IMO. Much easier and more accurate to make a router template the length of your hinge side jamb and do all that mortising in the shop in both door edge and jamb. Then test the fit to make sure, then hang the jamb/door plumb in the field. I typically keep 1/16” - 1/8” reveals between door edge and beginning of jamb and as long as I account for the state of the rough opening framing in my initial sizing of everything and can hang everything plumb then there is no reason to save that work for the field.

I also try and do as little chiseling as possible for hinge mortising and instead use a plunge router. With square corner hinges you obviously have to break out the chisels but that’s only the corners and after the depth / width has been established with the plunge router and ideally a template if you’re doing more than one door’s worth.

Edit: I am the only one who ever hangs custom doors that I build so I like to control the entire process and do as much ahead of time in the shop including very accurately measuring rough openings at the beginning and double checking to make sure everything has enough/not too much space. If I were building production doors (probably never will) then sure, a competent finish carpenter can mortise hinges, etc in the field, but not the way I’d ever choose to do it if I’m doing the install. Of course, a custom door that includes no hardware and no pre-hanging / mortising done that you’re are not hanging yourself is a totally different price than including all hardware, pre-hanging, and installation.

[Brian Holcombe]

I make the door jamb too, normally.

[Adam Herman]

pre-hang? heck yes. much easier install, more accurate machining possible, easy to install as well.

I really can not see any advantage to not pre-hanging. which, to be clear, is the install of the jamb around the door with everything machined including hinge and lock mortises on door and jamb. I like to do the stop and all casing after installing into the opening so that I can hide the trim screws under the stop and I hate when a door does not sit against the stop when closed. i like to pre-finish the jambs, stop, casing as well. do a final coat after install.

tom, what is your reasoning for never pre-hanging?

[Kevin Jenness]

I've done it both ways, I just hate chiseling out the hinges on site..


I think in some respects it is easier to hang non-prehung (less awkward), but like I said.. chiseling pockets out for hinges sucks.

I do the hinge routing with the jamb flat on the bench, before the jamb parts are assembled, with a router and template. A chisel is used to square up the corners. The door is held in a door buck with the edge horizontal. I find that much easier than cutting the gains with the jamb standing up, or with a chisel. I am too old and feeble to do it the hard way.

Most finish carpenters are so quick with jigs that they are better equipped to make the overall look of a new home more aesthetically pleasing! We always worried about the use of large casing to solve miss-measured openings.

I don't understand this. It should be at least as easy and fast to do the work in the shop, and the result is determined before it goes to the jobsite. Any mismeasurement of the rough openings won't be fixed by hanging onsite. Plus, most carpenters use commercial hinge jigs that leave nail holes in the door and jamb that have to be filled. And don't get me started on the hacks that strip the hinge screws using an impact driver and a #2 Philips bit. Hinges should be shipped with temporary steel screws and a #3 driver bit.

[andrew whicker]

Yes, this is exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks for confirming.


Normally, on the cheaper doors I've installed, the painting of the jamb and casing can be done after install. However, when installing a non painted wood door into a paintable jamb and casing has me re-thinking that normal method. I'd like to hire out the painting. Has your experience been that you can have the jamb and casing painting done reliably well after installing the door? Obviously on an exterior door, having a huge open doorway isn't ideal on a remodel.. to put it lightly.

[andrew whicker]

And this is a really good discussion, thanks much.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I do the hinge routing with the jamb flat on the bench, before the jamb parts are assembled, with a router and template. A chisel is used to square up the corners. The door is held in a door buck with the edge horizontal. I find that much easier than cutting the gains with the jamb standing up, or with a chisel. I am too old and feeble to do it the hard way.

Most finish carpenters are so quick with jigs that they are better equipped to make the overall look of a new home more aesthetically pleasing! We always worried about the use of large casing to solve miss-measured openings.

I don't understand this. It should be at least as easy and fast to do the work in the shop, and the result is determined before it goes to the jobsite. Any mismeasurement of the rough openings won't be fixed by hanging onsite. Plus, most carpenters use commercial hinge jigs that leave nail holes in the door and jamb that have to be filled. And don't get me started on the hacks that strip the hinge screws using an impact driver and a #2 Philips bit. Hinges should be shipped with temporary steel screws and a #3 driver bit.

I’m with you 100 % in this, Kevin. No reason to do it the hard way.

I keep a stash of steel #3 Philips screws for cutting the threads (and use paste wax on the threads if the door/jamb is hardwood.) and leave the painted/brass/etc screws alone until installation. Turns a good day into a bad one when you snap off a couple of brass screws in the edge of a hardwood door and having to remove, plug, re-drill, etc.

I have worked as a carpenter in the past enough to know that 98% of carpenters don’t actually know that a Philips #3 bit exists of where theirs is in the toolbox. Stripped hinge screws is always a concern on a jobsite. Most carpenters do not slow down enough to treat a custom high end door with the care and respect that it deserves. I know some are out there, but I’m speaking about my experience unfortunately. No one is more invested in the outcome of the custom door than the door builder himself. If I was delivering a door to a job site and not installing it myself I would include (2) philips #3 driver bits taped to the bag of hinge screws so that the carpenters would have to see them in order to open the bag of screws.

[Kevin Jenness]

Yes, this is exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks for confirming.


Normally, on the cheaper doors I've installed, the painting of the jamb and casing can be done after install. However, when installing a non painted wood door into a paintable jamb and casing has me re-thinking that normal method. I'd like to hire out the painting. Has your experience been that you can have the jamb and casing painting done reliably well after installing the door? Obviously on an exterior door, having a huge open doorway isn't ideal on a remodel.. to put it lightly.

A good painter can do it. It's easier to do it with the door loose and easier still to do it in the shop, with touchup onsite. Your warranty should specify that any site made cuts must be painted/sealed, but it's not likely that that will happen to doors trimmed at the top and bottom unless somebody reliable is in charge. If the doors are cut to fit a jamb that was set without without the door hung and then painted in place, 99% chance it won't happen. If you are building a prehung entry door with a jamb and sill you can seal the door bottom with epoxy and sleep at night.

[Adam Herman]

as far as painting, the best is to remove the door, and all hardware before finishing. I like to have to door completely done before it is hung. hang the door and trim it out, then remove door and jamb side hinge, finish paint and reinstall can usually happen within a few hours if you are careful and use a high quality finish. high end stuff we would ship a cull door in the opening for hanging, because we actually precisely sized all of our doors and not just beveled them, the finished door would fit perfectly.
many shops do not size, only bevel and many duel bevel every door they get so it can be a left or right off the stack.

my grandfather started a door pre-hanging business that was operating for about 50 years and before was a developer/builder.

[Kevin Jenness]

as far as painting, the best is to remove the door, and all hardware before finishing. I like to have to door completely done before it is hung. hang the door and trim it out, then remove door and jamb side hinge, finish paint and reinstall can usually happen within a few hours if you are careful and use a high quality finish. high end stuff we would ship a cull door in the opening for hanging, because we actually precisely sized all of our doors and not just beveled them, the finished door would fit perfectly.
many shops do not size, only bevel and many duel bevel every door they get so it can be a left or right off the stack.

my grandfather started a door pre-hanging business that was operating for about 50 years and before was a developer/builder.

Yes, sending a temporary door to the jobsite is an excellent practice. Some jobs go on for months after the entry doors are installed with more traffic from tradesmen than will ever be seen in normal use after construction. A substitute door is an extra expense, but less costly than potential repairs/ refinishing.

[Tom M King]

Two things that any well hung door should do are stay wherever you leave it in its swing, and close with a single sound. In order for it to stay wherever you leave it, both the jamb has to be perfectly plumb in the wall plane lengthwise, and the hinges have to be perfectly plumb in the perpendicular direction. If the wall is the slightest out of plumb, the door will move, but you can compensate for that with plumb hinges on a plumb in the wall plane jamb.

My jamb hinge jig is a flat piece of plywood with the cutouts for the hinges. It screws to the jamb where the stop will go, so there are no holes to be seen, or have to fill. You can plumb that jig since it doesn't register against the edges of the jamb, and judge where you want the hinges so if they are a bit different relative to the edge of the jamb, the door won't protrude past the jamb edges.

edited to add: Actually, when I was building new houses, that jig did register off the edges of the jamb. When I started working on other houses, I had to make one I could plumb not depending on the jamb edges.

My door hinge jig is a Sears from the 1960's. I like that one because it clamps to the door, and doesn't require holes in the door. I have two of them, and they never get moved. I do have to use a router with a bushing. Even though I'd rather use a more modern bit with built in bearing, I'd rather not have to recalibrate those jigs. I do have four dedicated routers for hanging house doors, and templates I've made for the lock strike mortise, and lock plunger mortise that also don't require holes in anything.


In order for the door to make a single sound, the stops have to be set after the door is hanging on the hinges, and the lock set.

Those things can't be done every time in every situation with a prehung unit. Quicker in most cases, yes. Better, not always. When I was building new houses, I built everything right there, so it made it all pretty efficient.

I almost always made my jambs out of 5/4 stock. Doors, cabinet doors and drawers are the moving parts in a house. If you want a premium house that goes for a premium price, how the moving parts move are important to show people who don't otherwise recognize quality.

[Joe Calhoon]

I’ve built custom interior and exterior doors since the 70s. Up till the late 80s we just built doors without pre hanging, just supplying the doors and jambs loose not routed. It was the norm then for carpenters to hang their own doors. Something changed in the the late 80 and everyone wanted prehung. We had a few callbacks at first getting things too tight in the jamb. Once we got that sorted a good system developed. Interior doors get beveled after wide belt sanding then routed to the jamb leg. At this point the jamb is not put together door drilling and strike mortising is done then the door is detailed out. Orbit sanding, edge easing etc. at this point door goes in the jamb, with the header cut to length at this time. This is a critical step to get the right fit. Legs are 1 1/4” long for field trimming, stops supplied loose unmitered. A board screwed into the jamb legs at the bottom to hold everything together. Couple temp stops to hold the door then stretch wrapped for delivery.
for a while we prefinished interior doors but didn’t have the shop space or manpower to be effective at that. It’s just math to get everything right.

For exterior euro doors and conventional doors the process is similar but a little more involved. All machining and fitting is done before finish. We always finish exterior doors ourselves. We do supply temporary doors a lot for exterior doors just so the frames can go in.

It does take a skilled carpenter to install heavy interior and exterior doors. If they don’t get the top hinge and jamb corner anchored securely you will have problems. Luckily locally we have mostly good carpenters and painters. But Yea, most painters don’t own a #3 Phillips! Like Phillip we run the hinges in with steel screws.

At some point I got rid of the porter cable hinge jig and bought the Norfield jig that does door and jamb at the same time. If you do many doors this makes things easier. I have also madecustom jigs that do door and jamb at the same time.
474053
474054

[Kevin Jenness]

Now that's a door buck! Is that a custom vise/dolly under the door?

Those Mafell chain mortisers are super fast and clean. Beautiful work as always, Joe.

[Tom M King]

If you just have one door to hang, the cheap Ryobi kit works better than you might think it would. It includes a router bit with bearing, and a VIX bit even. I was off too far from home helping someone, and bought it to hang a door.

Still had to cut the jamb hinge mortises with a chisel, but I don't mind doing that other than being slow. I did use that bit in one of the helpers router to hog out most of the waste in the jamb mortises, by eye.

Butt chisels are called that because they are for these butt hinge mortises in jambs. It's hard to clean out the insides with a long bench chisel because you can't get a long chisel in place to do the job.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/RYOBI-Door-Hinge-Template-A99HT3/312284029?mtc=SEM-BF-F_D25H-G-D25H-025_004_BUILDER_HARD-Multi-NA-NA-ETA-NA-NA-BuildersHardware_DSA_Q3_Pro_Control&cm_mmc=SEM-BF-F_D25H-G-D25H-025_004_BUILDER_HARD-Multi-NA-NA-ETA-NA-NA-BuildersHardware_DSA_Q3_Pro_Control-71700000085081314-58700007214746887-39700064691708952&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3rKQBhCNARIsACUEW_ZZuCTDCImuVkA5VnMs 1Q-XJEJqetMxQFLs4NPDqFDbM_vD8CyjeAwaAnBIEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Tom M King]

I've never used the Milescraft kit to hang a door, but did use the templates, years ago, to make my strike jigs with. I expect they would work. It used to be a lot cheaper, and didn't come with the bits.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milescraft-HingeMate350-Jig-Complete-Door-Mortising-Kit-1220/300533427

[Edwin Santos]

Now that's a door buck! Is that a custom vise/dolly under the door?



I was wondering about that too. It looks like the mini Black & Decker bench top workmate.

[Joe Calhoon]

474107Ha, that is the small workmate! I built my bench with a sliding jack board to get doors of different widths to a comfortable work height.
That’s a Dutch door set up. Must have just grabbed whatever was available for custom blocking.

[Tom M King]

If you're working by yourself, the little air bag "wedges" are a big help. Especially if you're marking the hinges mortises individually, it's better to mount them all to the door, cut the top one in the jamb, put a screw in that hinge, and then mark the other jamb mortises by the other hinges on the door. The air bag lets you support the door exactly where you need it, and it also keeps it from swinging. You only need one air bag, and you can operate it with your foot.

Not necessarily this one. This was just the first link I pulled up.

https://www.amazon.com/IMPROVED-Commercial-Professional-Alignment-Inflatable/dp/B07XB4BFPP/ref=sr_1_4?crid=27L01Q60P3T7Z&keywords=door+hanging+air+bag&qid=1645102793&sprefix=door+hanging+air+bag%2Caps%2C127&sr=8-4

[andrew whicker]

Thanks, this was a very good discussion. I really appreciate the tool recommendations as well. I'll do some thinking...