Full over lay cabinet advice

[Mitch schiffer]

I have a set of kitchen cabinets to build that are face frame cabinets with full overlay doors. I haven't done this on a face frame cabinet. Any advice or tips on this would be appreciated. Im mostly confused about the face frame sizing and the clearance on the upper cabinet doors on the inside corners.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I have a set of kitchen cabinets to build that are face frame cabinets with full overlay doors. I haven't done this on a face frame cabinet. Any advice or tips on this would be appreciated. Im mostly confused about the face frame sizing and the clearance on the upper cabinet doors on the inside corners.


Mitch, I recommend getting a copy of Danny Proulx's book "Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets." His method of construction allows the look of face frame with the use of Euro hardware. Basically, the face frame is shifted to the outside of the box, instead of inward. This means complete access to inside of cabinets, including pull out shelves and drawers.. Because only ends of cabinet run is seen, you do simple butt joints, screwed and glued. Half inch thick, over lay back, also screwed and glued. You don't need a separate "hanging rail" on back of cabinet. "Face frames are pocket screwed together and attached with pocket screws thru outside of cabinet, again hiding screws . Because face frames extend beyond the box, you already have a scribe stile to fit to wall. On end cabinet, you add an overlay panel to finish the end. So SIMPLE, and looks like face frame construction. We used to (retired now) take them to the job in the flat, and face frames assembled. Bult the boxes on site and attach face frame. Finish was applied in the shop. A small pickup truck could haul a complete kitchen in one trip

[Dave Sabo]

If you're making full overlay, the best advice is to ditch the face frame.

It needlessly complicates things with no real benefits.

[Jim Becker]

If you're making full overlay, the best advice is to ditch the face frame.

It needlessly complicates things with no real benefits.
True, I agree with you. Unless one is building cabinets to match existing...I will be in this exact situation with the kitchen and dining area in our new-to-us "downsize" house. The existing KraftMaid cabinetry is full overlay face frame. For that reason, the hinges clip over the edge of the face frame but otherwise operate similar to frameless. So to match the look, I'm going to have to do the full overlay face frame.

[Dave Sabo]

True, I agree with you. Unless one is building cabinets to match existing...I will be in this exact situation with the kitchen and dining area in our new-to-us "downsize" house. The existing KraftMaid cabinetry is full overlay face frame. For that reason, the hinges clip over the edge of the face frame but otherwise operate similar to frameless. So to match the look, I'm going to have to do the full overlay face frame.


Fair enough, an aesetic choice.

However, you're not truely going to match old cabinetry exactly no matter how good you are. Bearing that in mind, I'd choose the ease of production with the better functionality of frameless for the new set. Match the doors/drawers best you can and call it a day. But I get some people value different things.

[Rob Sack]

If you're making full overlay, the best advice is to ditch the face frame.

It needlessly complicates things with no real benefits.

I disagree. Without a face frame, the cabinets have to be edge banded and unless you have an automated edgebander, this is can be a pain. As long as your stiles are 1 1/2 inches wide or less, you can you European hinges with 0 mm plates and get a full overlay look. The other advantage is the face frame gives you scribing material if the front of the cabinet ends up against a wall. Obviously, outside panels require a 3/4 inch stile in order to achieve a full overlay. And for durability over the long haul, I'll take solid wood over edge banding.

[Dave Sabo]

I disagree. Without a face frame, the cabinets have to be edge banded and unless you have an automated edgebander, this is can be a pain. As long as your stiles are 1 1/2 inches wide or less, you can you European hinges with 0 mm plates and get a full overlay look. The other advantage is the face frame gives you scribing material if the front of the cabinet ends up against a wall. Obviously, outside panels require a 3/4 inch stile in order to achieve a full overlay. And for durability over the long haul, I'll take solid wood over edge banding.

:rolleyes:
The standard domestic "face frame is better" arguement. Edgeband a pain ? Mmmm, Ok. You don't like doing it - fair enough.
-but-
Milling frame material to thckness and width + cutting it accurately to frame size with openings + drilling pocket holes + gluing + squaring and clamping the frames up. All that ain't exactly easy. Or fast. And you still have to attach those frames to your carcass. That operation takes waaaaaay longer than ironing on edgebanding and trimming it. If I have an automated edgebander and you have a kreg jig, I've completed two set of cabinets and am in the pub before you've finished attaching your frames to one set of cabinets. If you have an automated pocket hole machine................we can still disagree on what's considered a pain since I'd rather go to the dentist than make pocket holes. And you still won't be faster.

Sure euro hinges are availble for frames, but the winged mounting plates just aren't as sturdy on a frame as they are on a carcass side. And the mounting screws often split the frame because no one pre drills them.

Integrated scribing material ? Big whoop. This sounds great, but installers hate you for it. They have to manipluate an entire cabinet in order to scribe to a wall rather than a separate filler. This is esecially fun with a 42" tall wall cabinet that is 36" wide. Double the fun with a 8-9ft. tall cabinet. Additionally, that scribe is never in plane with the doors on full overlay - a faux pas on a good day and unacceptable on higher end jobs. Plus, you've got to be sure to have an extended stile on those wall sides which complicates your frame layout and cutting in the operation above. Frameless affords a two piece filler that is easy to transport , handle, mark and scribe; and it looks better flush with the cabinet faces.

Edges just don't take that much abuse on a euro cabinet. Perhaps a "frame" is more durable but edgebanding is plenty durable enough. One can even use 3mm solid wood edgebanding if they are especially concerned. And most framed cabinets have lippage on the interiors that invite wear/abuse because the things you'd slide off the bottom shelf hit the lip. No such problem with frameless, which kinda makes the "durability" issue a bit of a red herring.

And I'm certain you don't want to talk about what a pain mounting drawer runners is on framed cabinetry. Split frames, side packers, rear brackets - makes me want to go to the dentist again.

But hey, love me some full inset framed cabinets. Especially beaded, there is just no way that can be replicated with Euro construction. We're not talking about that here though.

[Jim Dwight]

I'm building one now for my son and daughter-in-law's laundry space. The laundry is next to the kitchen so I am matching the style of those cabinets. They have face frame and full overlay doors. But this cabinet is also quite large. Almost 67 wide, 48 tall, and 24 inches deep. I am making it of 3/4 maple plywood so it is going to be really heavy. On a cabinet this wide, even with 3/4 plywood, I think the added stiffness of the face frame will be good thing. I plan assembly of the box this afternoon followed by face frame construction. I think I can assemble it and get it in my truck but I'm glad my son will help with installation. It isn't a one person cabinet. The face frame will go on after the cabinet it up. It will project a little outside the box of the cabinet to help with fitup. The space is not completely straight. I'm making the plywood box 1/4 smaller than the minimum width between the two walls it goes between. That gap will be covered by the face frame since the front of the cabinet area is wider by nearly 1/4. Face frame will be 1 3/4 so it will still stick into the cabinet a little too. At the top the face frame will be wider to support the crown molding which will also go against the ceiling. The revealed width of the top will be 1 3/4 like the rest of the face frame. I've done this before. Stopping a cabinet short of the ceiling but hiding the gap with crown molding. Helps a lot with the wall/ceiling irregularities.

[Jared Sankovich]

:rolleyes:
The standard domestic "face frame is better" arguement. Edgeband a pain ? Mmmm, Ok. You don't like doing it - fair enough.
-but-
Milling frame material to thckness and width + cutting it accurately to frame size with openings + drilling pocket holes + gluing + squaring and clamping the frames up. All that ain't exactly easy. Or fast. And you still have to attach those frames to your carcass. That operation takes waaaaaay longer than ironing on edgebanding and trimming it. If I have an automated edgebander and you have a kreg jig, I've completed two set of cabinets and am in the pub before you've finished attaching your frames to one set of cabinets. If you have an automated pocket hole machine................we can still disagree on what's considered a pain since I'd rather go to the dentist than make pocket holes. And you still won't be faster.

Sure euro hinges are availble for frames, but the winged mounting plates just aren't as sturdy on a frame as they are on a carcass side. And the mounting screws often split the frame because no one pre drills them.

Integrated scribing material ? Big whoop. This sounds great, but installers hate you for it. They have to manipluate an entire cabinet in order to scribe to a wall rather than a separate filler. This is esecially fun with a 42" tall wall cabinet that is 36" wide. Double the fun with a 8-9ft. tall cabinet. Additionally, that scribe is never in plane with the doors on full overlay - a faux pas on a good day and unacceptable on higher end jobs. Plus, you've got to be sure to have an extended stile on those wall sides which complicates your frame layout and cutting in the operation above. Frameless affords a two piece filler that is easy to transport , handle, mark and scribe; and it looks better flush with the cabinet faces.

Edges just don't take that much abuse on a euro cabinet. Perhaps a "frame" is more durable but edgebanding is plenty durable enough. One can even use 3mm solid wood edgebanding if they are especially concerned. And most framed cabinets have lippage on the interiors that invite wear/abuse because the things you'd slide off the bottom shelf hit the lip. No such problem with frameless, which kinda makes the "durability" issue a bit of a red herring.

And I'm certain you don't want to talk about what a pain mounting drawer runners is on framed cabinetry. Split frames, side packers, rear brackets - makes me want to go to the dentist again.

But hey, love me some full inset framed cabinets. Especially beaded, there is just no way that can be replicated with Euro construction. We're not talking about that here though.

This.. 100% this.

[Warren Lake]

not sure what lippage is unless you mean the face frame sits higher than the cabinet bottom. Not how people build here. The shelf sits higher than the face frame and becomes a door stop for the door both on the uppers and lowers.

[Jim Becker]

not sure what lippage is unless you mean the face frame sits higher than the cabinet bottom. Not how people build here. The shelf sits higher than the face frame and becomes a door stop for the door both on the uppers and lowers.

For inset doors, that lip is very good for the stop function. It will not matter for overlay doors so for appearance, the cabinet bottom flush with the top of the lower rail would look better, particularly for uppers where it's right at face level.

---

OP, it would be good to understand the reason for the face frames with full overlay for this project. As you can see, there are sound arguments both against and for that design.

[Dave Sabo]

not sure what lippage is unless you mean the face frame sits higher than the cabinet bottom. Not how people build here. The shelf sits higher than the face frame and becomes a door stop for the door both on the uppers and lowers.

Yup, exactly what I'm talking about.

What you describe is a nice looking way to build framed, but.............It complicates the design/layout/attachment of the frames to the carcass.

Plus Rob, et al is still going to have to deal or live with a shelf edge that is not as "durable" as a hardwood face frame.
I'll wager that most of the USA face frame cabinets do not have construction like that. They have lips.

Stand by my statement that for full overlay - face frames are more complicated an offer no real benefit.

[Jared Sankovich]

not sure what lippage is unless you mean the face frame sits higher than the cabinet bottom. Not how people build here. The shelf sits higher than the face frame and becomes a door stop for the door both on the uppers and lowers.

Ive never seen a overlay FF cabinet built like that. Inset sure, but it requires edge banding / solid edging and a face frame.

[Warren Lake]

Makes sense Jared I was thinking inset. Its what I like. Old days face frames and furniture construction cabinets built as big as they could be not a bunch of single cabinets stuck together. Ive likely seen the raised Lip stuff on Craftmaid, doors over face frames so its going to get banged up for sure over time.

Also one reason for past face frames were the old style hinges those spring loaded things. You physically needed space between doors for whatever hinges took up space wise. Not sure the name of them but in all the older homes ive ever lived in from the 60's.

[Mitch schiffer]

The reason I was looking into face frames was mostly because I haven't had the best experience building frameless cabinets. With my set up im pretty confident I can build a ff carcass faster. I also hate doing so much edgebanding. Another reason is the prefinished plywood i have been getting lately has no been straight enough. Im currently working on frameless cabinets for a different job and I have been fighting it the whole way trying to get a straight door to have a acceptable reveal on bent plywood.

[Dave Sabo]

The reason I was looking into face frames was mostly because I haven't had the best experience building frameless cabinets. With my set up im pretty confident I can build a ff carcass faster. I also hate doing so much edgebanding. Another reason is the prefinished plywood i have been getting lately has no been straight enough. Im currently working on frameless cabinets for a different job and I have been fighting it the whole way trying to get a straight door to have a acceptable reveal on bent plywood.

Hating edgebanding is one thing. So is warped plywood. That ain’t good no matter the type of cab you’re building. Best to find a new supplier. Forcing it straight with a frame isn’t easy , nor is it great for the frame. Why don’t you use melamine for your carcass material ?

I’m scratching my head on why you think you can make a face frame carcass faster than a frameless one ? A carcass is a carcass, regardless whether the front edge gets edgeband or a frame put on it.

[Mitch schiffer]

Hating edgebanding is one thing. So is warped plywood. That ain’t good no matter the type of cab you’re building. Best to find a new supplier. Forcing it straight with a frame isn’t easy , nor is it great for the frame. Why don’t you use melamine for your carcass material ?

I’m scratching my head on why you think you can make a face frame carcass faster than a frameless one ? A carcass is a carcass, regardless whether the front edge gets edgeband or a frame put on it.

Maybe I misspoke. The box itself takes the same amount of time but I'm fairly slow edgebanding so I feel I can make a face frame fast then I can edgeband. I have not tested that but it sure seems that way. Anothe thing I forgot to mention was this clients wants a 3/4 recess at the bottom of the upper cabinets for some particular under cabinet lights. I didn't have a good solution for this with a frameless box.

[Kevin Jenness]

I despise veneer tape and don't have an edgebander, so my banding process is slow with 1/4" solid wood strips put on with bar clamps and trimmed on the shaper. Less work than face frames, but not even in the same ballpark as putting on prefinished tape with a hot melt edgebander. I do use frameless construction for full overlay/tight reveal cabinetwork and with proper design there's nothing that can't be done in that format other than inset panels with framed openings. My cost to do frameless on the type of work I do isn't significantly less though.

For inset face frame work, standard Euro hinges, baseplates and slides are not an issue. I typically build a separate box for each opening with a slight (1/32") setback from the face frame, so there's no blocking out for slides. I use a manual Castle type pocket hole machine which is fast and simple.

For any type of cabinetmaking reasonably flat panels are a must. I have had pretty good luck with veneer core ply from Columbia and Garnica. There are panels available with mdf cores, and of course melamine coated particleboard, but I don't care to deal with the added weight.

There's usually a way to get the look desired with either construction method. Concealing recessed lights can be done with an added valance on a frameless box, flush scribes with overlay doors can be achieved the same way as on frameless. I wouldn't do overlay on a face frame by choice though unless I had to match existing cabinets with wide reveals. I hate those frame mounted Euro hinges.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I despise veneer tape I hate those frame mounted Euro hinges. Both of these are eliminated using Danny's method of construction.