alternatives to quarter sawn lumber

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Hi folks,

I might be making a wooden plane in a few months and that kind of build typically involve dimensionally stable lumber - traditionally quarter sawn.

the problem is I can't get any!

The importers buy flat sawn and as much as I would love to, custom ordering is not feasible.
so I was thinking of laminations.

any thoughts on the subject? what thickness would I be able to get away with?

[Robert Engel]

Sometimes you can find Quartersawn or very close to it on a wide board in the outer portions.

I typically get stiles and rails out of wider boards.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Assaf, What type of woods are thinking of. I see some laminated planes (doing a quick web search).

[Monte Milanuk]

I've been pondering a similar project - I was wondering if ripping quarter-sawn sections from a wider board as mentioned, and then laminating those pieces into a larger block would work. Probably not a very 'traditional' look, though...

[Maurice Mcmurry]

This reveals the primitive nature of some of my "woodworking" but... I like Robert use the outside edges of a carefully selected treated 2x8, 2x10, or 2x12 to make deck handrails. The resulting 2x2 will have straight, tight, vertical grain.

[roger wiegand]

If you have a supplier where you can pick through the bin you will invariably find boards that are some or all quartersawn. They don't pull them out of the "run of the mill" pallet of boards. Typically much cheaper than paying for a board advertised as QS.

[Dave Anderson NH]

You can buy both tapered plane irons and the blanks from Red Rose Reproductions. They have blanks of seasoned and ready to use quarter sawn beech available for sale which include the wood for the wedge. I built a smoothing plane from their supplies.

[Rafael Herrera]

Gluing three or four pieces should give you a usable billet to get you started. The Red Rose Reproductions site is an option, depends on how much it would cost to ship to you.

[chris carter]

In theory, 90* quartersawn and 0* flat sawn are the same if you are making a wooden bench plane from a solid piece of wood. It’s just which face you decide to point “up” because most wooden bench planes are basically square-ish. I suppose it could matter if (like me) you cut the back down for a lower tote. You would only want to avoid the angled quartersawn where the lines run diagonally because then you could wind up with a parallelogram. All solid wood will move; it’s just a matter of HOW it moves.

If you are concerned about stability, then laminate. It can also make the build process a lot easier. Lamination will eliminate the possibility of cupping, bowing, skewing. It might shrink and expand, but you won’t get any of the nasty stuff. In theory at least. I made both of my wooden bench planes by laminating red oak.

That’s all theory, but in the real world DOES IT EVEN MATTER??????? Here’s a pic of some of my wooden (or wooden soled) planes. #1 is a jointer I made that is laminated and we'll call the grain orientation mostly vertical-ish to the sole. #2 is a jack I made that is the same. #3 and #4 are a Stanley jack and smoother and both are flat sawn transitionals. #4 is a skew rabbet that is flat sawn relative to the wood dimensions, or a perfect 90* relative to the sole (because on a rabbet, the sides matter). #5 is a rabbet that is about 45* so depending upon who you trust it’s either quartersawn or rift sawn. None of them have caused me any issues. I will also point out that wooden planes soles get worn and you have to periodically re-flatten them so that’s another mitigating factor. Every time I true up a sole I mark it with a pencil so I know how I'm progressing, but they also tell me a lot about the condition of the sole. Every time I've tuned up one of these soles it's obvious that the only changes to the soles are from wear. None of it has been from warping despite the severe humidity changes and the variety of grain orientations.

Not saying it doesn't matter, just that in MY case it has never mattered. For reference, my shop gets the house's heating and cooling. In the summer (heat) and winter (cooling) the humidity is bone dry and will peel the skin off your body. in the spring and fall when the central air isn't running we acclimate to what it is outside, which is typically in the 90+ range. So a pretty wild swing throughout the year.

473821

[Maurice Mcmurry]

473843
Straight, close, grain with out much runout on any surface is what I look for, and call quartered.
whether it is a 2x4 or a 4x2 or 2ax2b vs 2bx2a.
I have not made a plane. Chris's look excellent!

473844

[Scott Winners]

I have several - I will go count - 18 pieces- of Alaska birch that were felled as live trees in January 2021, delivered to my driveway as 16" long rounds of firewood, split from rounds as firewood by me. Out of three cords of firewood delivered I have these 18 pieces left (with latex house paint on the end grain) that are pretty much straight grained, knot free and quartered. They aren't quarter sawn, they were quarter split at below freezing temps while still fresh and green.

The largest piece I have will yield 1.75 x 6 x 16 inches. The smaller ones will go 1x4x16 inches minimum before trimming for shipment. For now the bark is still tight on them, with the latex paint on the end grain they are drying slow with minimal end checking.

I am planning to list these in the for sale section here in Sep/Oct 2022 air dried two summers. When I am ready to sell in another 6-7 months I will first deal via PM (hope I don't get in trouble) with folks that express an interest here via PM, and then list in the for sale section. Assaf is possible customer number one, I shall review this thread for subsequent higher numbers.

Price will be 10 cents per stick, plus $5 handling, plus actual shipping. Buyer will be responsible for customs/import duties and agricultural clearance. Once this post is posted I am going to tap the black triangle to get the moderators involved. On the one hand I want to put these blanks into the hands of folks who want to use them, but on the other hand I want to remain a member in good standing here.

While I have never made one, I did have the 'side escapement plane' DVD from LN. I decided it wasn't a thing I wanted to get involved in and I let the DVD go. Per the DVD, two years isn't enough. Per the LN DVD you will want to season these blanks in your shop a few more years before you go for it.

For the moderators, I think I have on review two threads started in the for sale section here asking if anyone is interested in plane blanks. At ten cents a stick I am clearly not in this for the money. I process 8-12 cords of firewood annually. Popping a few quarter split blanks when I find a straight round, I think, is a courtesy for the community on which you might smile. Just tell me what you want me to do to remain a member in good standing here and I will do that.

473867

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Scott, That is a labor of love. I have been using Titebond to paint ends. The guy who told me to try it uses III It works well with II and original also.

[Richard Hutchings]

This brings to mind some, I think, misinformation I found on FB. I'm told to use quarter-sawn with bark side down. That doesn't make any sense to me. That would mean the straight and stable grain goes to the sides, right? I wouldn't build one like that but just pointing out some info I got on FB.

[Ed Mitchell]

I don't think you need alternatives, as mentioned above you can cut quartersawn sections from a flatsawn board and laminate them together. There is no limit to the number of times you can do this.

If you; however, want an alternative, you can see if your importer has access to extremely stable wood. For example, honey mesquite (https://www.wood-database.com/honey-mesquite/) is so stable that even its tangential face moves less (on a percentage basis) than the radial face of hard maple (https://www.wood-database.com/hard-maple/). So you could try something like that in a pinch -- I don't know how well it would work, but it's better than nothing.

[Rafael Herrera]

This brings to mind some, I think, misinformation I found on FB. I'm told to use quarter-sawn with bark side down. That doesn't make any sense to me. That would mean the straight and stable grain goes to the sides, right? I wouldn't build one like that but just pointing out some info I got on FB.

Anything out of social media I don't take too seriously.

The radial direction moves less than the tangential direction on a piece of wood. Sideways movement on the body of the plane are less important. Movement that would affect the sole are more critical, that is why the plane is built with the bark side down. Now, why the bark side and not the inner side, I don't know. I read in a planemaker's book that it probably does not make a difference, that it's more of a traditional choice, I don't have the book in front of me, I can add a reference later.

[Richard Hutchings]

Bark side down indicates a flat sawn sole. I don't get it.

[Richard Coers]

In theory, 90* quartersawn and 0* flat sawn are the same if you are making a wooden bench plane from a solid piece of wood. It’s just which face you decide to point “up” because most wooden bench planes are basically square-ish. I suppose it could matter if (like me) you cut the back down for a lower tote. You would only want to avoid the angled quartersawn where the lines run diagonally because then you could wind up with a parallelogram. All solid wood will move; it’s just a matter of HOW it moves.

If you are concerned about stability, then laminate. It can also make the build process a lot easier. Lamination will eliminate the possibility of cupping, bowing, skewing. It might shrink and expand, but you won’t get any of the nasty stuff. In theory at least. I made both of my wooden bench planes by laminating red oak.

That’s all theory, but in the real world DOES IT EVEN MATTER??????? Here’s a pic of some of my wooden (or wooden soled) planes. #1 is a jointer I made that is laminated and we'll call the grain orientation mostly vertical-ish to the sole. #2 is a jack I made that is the same. #3 and #4 are a Stanley jack and smoother and both are flat sawn transitionals. #4 is a skew rabbet that is flat sawn relative to the wood dimensions, or a perfect 90* relative to the sole (because on a rabbet, the sides matter). #5 is a rabbet that is about 45* so depending upon who you trust it’s either quartersawn or rift sawn. None of them have caused me any issues. I will also point out that wooden planes soles get worn and you have to periodically re-flatten them so that’s another mitigating factor. Every time I true up a sole I mark it with a pencil so I know how I'm progressing, but they also tell me a lot about the condition of the sole. Every time I've tuned up one of these soles it's obvious that the only changes to the soles are from wear. None of it has been from warping despite the severe humidity changes and the variety of grain orientations.

Not saying it doesn't matter, just that in MY case it has never mattered. For reference, my shop gets the house's heating and cooling. In the summer (heat) and winter (cooling) the humidity is bone dry and will peel the skin off your body. in the spring and fall when the central air isn't running we acclimate to what it is outside, which is typically in the 90+ range. So a pretty wild swing throughout the year.

473821
It matters with a wide iron with a snug fit made in the summer. It will shrink in the winter and bind in the iron with the wrong grain orientation.

[Rafael Herrera]

Bark side down indicates a flat sawn sole. I don't get it.

In your picture, movement will be greater in the horizontal direction (tangential to the growth rings), lesser in the vertical direction (radial). One of the aims is to have the side that move the least as the working surface. The movement is expansion and shrinkage in the width of the plane, not twist, warp or cup.

A better example, perhaps, is a moulding plane, being made from quarter sawn stock would result in the left and right sides of the plane being less likely to twist, warp or cup.

[Richard Hutchings]

I didn't even think about that. So the reason for the bark side down is to maintain the width for the blade and wedge. Am I understanding correctly?

[chris carter]

It matters with a wide iron with a snug fit made in the summer. It will shrink in the winter and bind in the iron with the wrong grain orientation.

That would be an error by the plane maker. You have to have space on either side of the iron to allow for lateral adjustment. The space required for lateral adjustment is far greater than that needed to accommodate any wood shrinkage even with the worst possible grain direction and the worst possible humidity changes.

[Rafael Herrera]

That would be an error by the plane maker. You have to have space on either side of the iron to allow for lateral adjustment. The space required for lateral adjustment is far greater than that needed to accommodate any wood shrinkage even with the worst possible grain direction and the worst possible humidity changes.

Old tapered irons are narrower as you go up on its length. On a plane of the style shown in the picture, the mortise is wider at the top of the plane and just wide enough to fit the iron at the bottom. So, movement considerations have been already addressed, even in the iron design.

In my opinion, a well made plane has taken into account wood shrinkage, in particular when fitting the wedge. When the wedge has been left fitted tightly, and it's about as wide as the mortise, shrinkage may result in the cheek splitting.

Again, the reason for the way the annular rings of the stock are oriented has more to do with keeping the plane as straight and flat at the sole as possible. If the sole becomes convex the plane will stop cutting, and it doesn't take much for that to happen.

473937

[chuck van dyck]

I dunno, I think there is room for consideration either way. If the plane is left with the iron in it, contraction around the metal can cause the mouth to split at its sides. I’ve got a few old kanna with this issue.

I’d rather lap the sole flat again than repair/live with cracks in the sole. Flattening the sole is just part of the game with wooden bodied planes. We’re woodworkers, flattening wood is most of what we do.

As others said, you can get get some rift material outta the flatsawn stack. Don’t get paralysis by analysis. Don’t be unfair to yourself and compare your work to an experienced plane maker’s.

First one of anything is always a huge learning experience. Subsequent ones will only get better. Read a book, make a plane, then maybe make a better plane.

[Luke Dupont]

Well, I'm now thoroughly confused about this quarter-sawn issue as well, but I now have the urge to make some wood planes (probably wrongly!)

I have been wondering for some time why old irons were thinner at the top and thicker at the edge. This seems counter productive as the iron and wedge should theoretically interfere with eachother then (ie, the tap the iron for a deeper cut and the wedge loosens, yikes! But tap the wedge to lock the iron back in and it advances the iron even more? Yikes again!)

Is that not an issue, though? I haven't actually used a wooden-bodied plane with such an iron very much.

Curious if you can make a functional wood plane with a standard stanley iron and capiron, as those are much more available.

[Rafael Herrera]

I have been wondering for some time why old irons were thinner at the top and thicker at the edge. This seems counter productive as the iron and wedge should theoretically interfere with eachother then (ie, the tap the iron for a deeper cut and the wedge loosens, yikes! But tap the wedge to lock the iron back in and it advances the iron even more? Yikes again!)

Is that not an issue, though? I haven't actually used a wooden-bodied plane with such an iron very much.

Curious if you can make a functional wood plane with a standard stanley iron and capiron

Once installed, tapping the top of the iron advances it, but only enough to get thicker shavings, not so much as to loosen it completely (unless you whack it). You follow the tapping with a few taps of the wedge to re-tighten the iron.

One is capable of very fine adjustments with this method.

The sides of the iron are not parallel, the iron narrows at the top, no risk of trapping the iron if the plane shrinks. The risk is the wedge splitting the side cheeks as the plane shrinks. The narrowness at the top of the iron allows for lateral adjustment.

[John C Cox]

The main issue for a plane is twisting/cupping, not so much straight, linear expansion.

Not all knot free, straight grain wood is well behaved, but the chances are certainly stacked in your favor vs wood with knot shadow and curving grain.

i would personally square up a candidate billet, make sure it's good and straight, then mount some winding sticks on it and let it sit for a season. Watch the winding sticks for evidence of twisting or misbehavior. If it's good - get to it and build. If not, use it for something else that doesn't suffer from seasonal bad manners.... Tool handles, whatever.

I think a few here have already mentioned this, but you can use flat sawn boards just fine. Just joint several together to make into whatever thickness you need. Ironically, some of the popular plane making instructions start with a thick billet, rip it into three sections, saw out the mouth geometry, and reassemble. Then square it all back up, and off you go.