Mortise or tenon first

[Richard Hutchings]

I'm currently building a saw vise from a plan I found online. I cut the mortises first and right off the chisel they are pretty wonky. So now I need to make the tenons slightly larger than planned, no problem there. Should square up the mortises to perfection or just fit the tenons to what I have. I'm quite sure the last inch of depth is pretty good but my mortise chisel twisted here and there.

Noob. Watched Paul Sellers do it and he makes it look like childs play. Took me an hour and a half to make 2 mortises, 1/2" x 2" x 3" in white oak. One good thing is the plan calls for 5/8" mortises but I don't have a 5/8" chisel.

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[Richard Hutchings]

BTW, I used 2 different methods to cut these. One with the drilled holes and the other just the chisel.

[Rob Luter]

I usually make the mortise first and then the tenon to match. It's easier to get them right by sneaking up on the fit. Tweaking a mortise is tougher, at least for me.

[steven c newman]

I usually go tenon first....trace around the tenon onto the spot for the mortise to go....then just leave the lines.

IF you don't happen to have the exact width of chisel for the mortise.....use a smaller width one....5/8" would use a 5/16" one. Or, since a lot of chisels now are made to Metric widths, maybe use the 6mm one....

And, no, I do not drill out the waste....I just sit down at my bench....and chop away...I don't try to go all the way on one chop....I go in a series of layers....that way, I control how the mortise turns out. I just work my way back and forth, a layer at a time.

Also, you might want to check out for a Lock Mortise Chisel....makes it easier to dig all the chips out, and scrape along the floor of the mortise...they look like someone made a chisel out of a "?" and added a handle where the "dot" was..

[Scott Clausen]

For some unknown reason I bought my first set of chisels in metric format. Anyway I size the marking gauge to the exact with on my chisel to mark the mortice walls and use the shop made cheater guide to help me keep the walls square. I use the same gauge set to mark my tenon but cut (handsaw) outside the lines. I then clean up with a router plane but still stay a bit fat. I then start test fitting to get the tenon with that is perfect. I wish I knew all of this and had all the tools when I attempted my first one. A lot of folks like to use standard chisels but I still like my mortise chisel.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Richard, a few thoughts follow.

If your tenons will show on the exit side you may want to make your mortises as square as practical. For a saw vise it likely won't matter.

The easiest way to make a mortise wider than your chisel is to bore out the waste first then cleaning up with chisels. In my own experience, going at it with a chisel and mallet is faster and easier than drilling and paring.

Tenons first, mortise first, is like pins first or tails first when cutting dovetails, it doesn't really matter. For me it is easier to correct a mis-cut tenon than it is to correct an incorrectly cut mortise.

A 5/8" chisel isn't one of the common sizes. In mortise chisels finding something larger than 1/2" is uncommon. What is more common is finding chisels in larger sizes made for heavier work like framing, wheel wrights or wagon makers.

On one of my projects 24 mortises were cut > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?262272 < A test tenon was used, so in effect one tenon was made before the mortises were cut.

With a bit of experience one's speed at cutting mortises gets better. Having a chisel to match the width saves a lot of time. Developing the rhythm of cutting a mortise also reduces the time it takes.

jtk

[Eric Rathhaus]

Just giving you what I learned but no opinion if it's the best or better way as I haven't use other methods much. I learned to set your mortice gauge to the width of the mortice chisel you will use, and mark both the mortice and tenon with the same gauge setting. Ensuring you always saw to the waste side, then cut the tenon first later chopping out the mortice. But this method probably only works well if you're using a mortice chisel.

The good thing about a M&T joint is that even ugly ones usually hold well because there's so much glue surface. And if the gaps are too big, you can always make it a wedged tenon with the wedges forcing the sids of the tenon into the sides of the mortise.

[Richard Hutchings]

I considered making a "cheater guide" and probably should have. I think some of my problems came from not clamping the board to the bench and not chopping over a leg and wailing away with a heavy steel hammer because I don't have a proper mallet. It's on my list before I do this again. Rob Cosman shows drawing square lines every 1/8" to set the chisel to.

I set mortise gauge to the width of my chisel as best as I could. I don't think it helped and next time I'm going to use one line only as per either Cosman or the English guy, I forget.

Jim, that's an excellent way to practice, I may build a new gate just so I can do it. Your thread didn't show the finished gate, did you finish it?

[Tony Wilkins]

There’s dozens of variations of method for mortice and tenon. The big thing I see is your description of wailing away. The neatest work I’ve seen done is when the craftsman takes small bites. When your only trying to move a sliver of wood out of the way you don’t need much force. Seems to go quicker that way too, though it seems the opposite of what you’d expect.

eta: also, are you positioned so that you can see square in the right direction?

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Also, you might want to check out for a Lock Mortise Chisel....makes it easier to dig all the chips out, and scrape along the floor of the mortise...they look like someone made a chisel out of a "?" and added a handle where the "dot" was..

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you mean swan neck chisels? I thought a lock mortise chisel was the thing they use for chopping out a mortise for a lock when the box has already been assembled and you don't have room for a plumb chisel and mallet...

[Eric Rathhaus]

Richard there are quite a few lengthy threads of different methods for MT and chopping mortices on this site. You can pull them up by using the "site:sawmillcreek.org" designation after typing your search words in your browser. I remember many having links to articles and videos. The best article I remember was one by Ian Kirby. He discusses different approaches and how to do each, if my memory still exists.

[Richard Hutchings]

"eta: also, are you positioned so that you can see square in the right direction?"
No, I seem to have done everything wrong in spite of watching professionals do it on YT. By the time I get into the shop, seems I've forgotten everything they said.:) I'll get it, just need a couple more projects with a few M&Ts.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I learned to set your mortice gauge to the width of the mortice chisel you will use, and mark both the mortice and tenon with the same gauge setting.

Eric you raise an interesting point. I recently checked my mortising chisels (Ray Iles) and all of them were off their width by a couple of thou or more. The same is true for a vintage pigsticker I own. They are still great chisels, the take home for me is not to get a mortising gauge with fixed distance spacing

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I do have one trick that helps me (as a relative novice) I think it was Derek Cohen but I'm not sure. .

When you mark out your mortise layout with a knife make a few passes to deepen the layout lines. then either with a chisel or a router plane pare out the shallow waste. the knife wall can be useful in guiding your mortising.

[Scott Clausen]

Eric you raise an interesting point. I recently checked my mortising chisels (Ray Iles) and all of them were off their width by a couple of thou or more. The same is true for a vintage pigsticker I own. They are still great chisels, the take home for me is not to get a mortising gauge with fixed distance spacing
The actual distance is not important, setting the gauge to the size of whatever chisel you choose is. Also mortise chisels normally get slightly more narrow as you move away from the tip to prevent binding.

[Eric Rathhaus]

I though the narrowing occurred from the bottom to top to make the shape slightly trapezoid to prevent binding. I make this distinction bcs Warren advocates his method of chopping to take advantage of the shape to keep the sides straight.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, that's an excellent way to practice, I may build a new gate just so I can do it. Your thread didn't show the finished gate, did you finish it?

If your viewing preference is set to linear (if my memory is working) the gate is shown in the 15th post.

Here it is again:

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It is still going strong without any looseness or sag.

jtk

[Joe A Faulkner]

Swan Neck and Lock Mortise as far as Two Cherries is concerned seem to refer to the same tool. https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/EE-500-21.XX

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, Swan Neck & Lock Mortise chisels are the same thing.

There are three currently in my kit:

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These are the small ones, 1/8 & 1/4".

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The 1/2" Lock Mortise chisel is laying on the bench. There are a couple of pencils and a six inch rule next to it on the bench.

jtk

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

You are correct to both: there is a tapering from top to bottom that creates a trapezoid - this is primarily so that if your chisel twists while in use you won't ruin your layout lines by cutting into the sides. The taper from tip to handle is much more slight, and it is to prevent binding and ease the resistance of the tool while entering the wood.

[Richard Hutchings]

I finished fitting the tenon this morning using my new Veritas carcass saw. It worked pretty good for everything but the crosscut. I had to do a bit of chisel work to flatten the shoulders. I used a knife wall and expected much better straighter cut. I was hoping to get by with the dovetail and carcass but I guess I need to purchase a crosscut saw. I have a pull saw but I wanted to get away from them and work all western.

[Richard Hutchings]

Oops, I forgot that I have Lynx crosscut saw I could have used. Need to build a saw til.

[Tony Wilkins]

I finished fitting the tenon this morning using my new Veritas carcass saw. It worked pretty good for everything but the crosscut. I had to do a bit of chisel work to flatten the shoulders. I used a knife wall and expected much better straighter cut. I was hoping to get by with the dovetail and carcass but I guess I need to purchase a crosscut saw. I have a pull saw but I wanted to get away from them and work all western.
Is your carcass saw filed rip? I see LV offers what they call the carcass saw in both.

[Richard Hutchings]

Yes I bought the rip

[Scott Clausen]

Oops, I forgot that I have Lynx crosscut saw I could have used. Need to build a saw til.
I have that Lynx and it works great, I think they called it a tenon saw in the Amazon ad.

[Richard Hutchings]

My lynx saw was bought about 15 years ago I think from Woodcraft. Seems to do a better job of crosscutting than my rip carcass saw but I need to get some magnifiers to see how it's filed. I'll be filing it crosscut for sure once I get my saw vise done.

[Derek Cohen]

I finished fitting the tenon this morning using my new Veritas carcass saw. It worked pretty good for everything but the crosscut. I had to do a bit of chisel work to flatten the shoulders. I used a knife wall and expected much better straighter cut. I was hoping to get by with the dovetail and carcass but I guess I need to purchase a crosscut saw. I have a pull saw but I wanted to get away from them and work all western.

Richard, saw just off the knife shoulder lines. Then use a chisel into the knife line to finish.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Hutchings]

Thanks, next time.

[steven c newman]

Might be a bit late to this, but...

I use my Mitre Box. I either mark how deep to saw, or if I have a bunch of cuts to make..set the depth stops. The saw used in the Mitre Box is 11 ppi, filed cross cut. A well maintained Mitre box will produce a "perfect" shoulder cut....This is where I start with the tenons. Depending on the grain of the part....I can just use a wide chisel to split off the waste, and the same chisel to pare with..

Ok, just 2 tools used, so far...IF the tenon gets a haunch, a dovetail can cut that, with the same chisel to split off the waste, again.

I stand the part with the tenon up on the rough location of the mortise it will be going into. I trace around the tenon with a sharp No.2 pencil. I then nibble/chop a mortise for a tight fight. High tight? to where the tenon just slips into the mortises without having to hammer it in. IF I do not have a chisel the correct size as needed...I go with the one closest to that size, without being too wide....undersize is just fine.

Remember that wide chisel? I use it to square up the walls of the mortise...working until the tenon fits. (Very easy to go overboard here, sneak up on it, works better)

And that is it....Had one project a while back...that I needed 16 tenons to fit into 16 mortises....all the same size...web frames for a desk project....and all tenons had a haunch.
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Actually, there were 30 tenons...with 15 rails
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Had 3 panels such as this to do....Raised panels with a hand plane, as well.....
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Which is the desk I am sitting at this moment...

[Richard Hutchings]

I remember Paul Sellers did a video where he did the same as you, split the cheek off. I'll try it next time.

[Jim Koepke]

I remember Paul Sellers did a video where he did the same as you, split the cheek off. I'll try it next time.

The grain around where the tenon is planed to be can make a big difference between success and a mess. The split will tend to follow the grain.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Learned how to split off the waste from Roy Underhill's The Woodwright's Shop....long ago......

[James Pallas]

At some point you need to do M&T’s either way. There are swan neck and lock mortise chisels. The lock mortise chisels are used for installing half mortise locks on small boxes and such. I believe LN still makes them. Old tool not seen much. Splitting can be very successful no mater the grain direction. Just try to keep the chip narrower than what is left to cut and it works most of the time.
Jim

[Luke Dupont]

I thought the width of the mortise, and therefore the tenon, was defined by the width of the chisel you use?

At least, if you chop out the waste, that's how it goes.

It's quite easy to keep the chisel straight up and down when there's material holding it on either side, and you can cut very straight mortises this way.

If you drill out the waste, or otherwise decide some arbitrary width, then you need to start paring down the side walls which can easily introduce inaccuracies if you're not careful. That's why I prefer to just chop the waste out, though noise constraints sometimes make that difficult in an apartment context.

[Jim Koepke]

I thought the width of the mortise, and therefore the tenon, was defined by the width of the chisel you use?

At least, if you chop out the waste, that's how it goes.

It's quite easy to keep the chisel straight up and down when there's material holding it on either side, and you can cut very straight mortises this way.

If you drill out the waste, or otherwise decide some arbitrary width, then you need to start paring down the side walls which can easily introduce inaccuracies if you're not careful. That's why I prefer to just chop the waste out, though noise constraints sometimes make that difficult in an apartment context.

Good points Luke, that is why my mortises are mostly chopped. At least for me it is less fussy and just as fast.

The mortise gauge is set to the chisel:

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Chop to the lines, saw to the lines (or chisel split to the line) and everything should be good.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

I though the narrowing occurred from the bottom to top to make the shape slightly trapezoid to prevent binding. I make this distinction bcs Warren advocates his method of chopping to take advantage of the shape to keep the sides straight.

The trapezoidal shape is almost always overdone. If you can see it, casually, by looking at the chisel straight on at eye level it is overdone. Lap it back a little at the back. No, it will no longer be at its advertised width but that's not the concern. One often hears people complain about the lack of care in which new chisels are made, but apparently take it on faith that a new mortise chisel has the proper degree of relief, and that's it's equal on both sides. They rarely have either attribute. I think you're better off buying one that's square (Lie Nielsen) and lapping in your own relief if you think you need it. You may find that you don't. One with too much relief, and/or relief that is not the same on both sides, will twist. I can practically guarantee it. Being afraid to admit it does not make it not so.

I think Japanese mortise chisels are square with slightly concave sides and sharp arrises all around. This seems to me to be the best geometry, as a thought exercise at least. I've never owned a Japanese mortise chisel. Maybe somebody who has one can comment.

[steven c newman]

Lets see..I have a few by Narex, one from Japan (12mm) one from Witherby, and one or two from the older Buck Bros. Co.

Normally, I use the one closest to the size mortise I need to chop...without going over, size wise....

maybe I just chop differently than some on here...have not had any problems with them getting stuck.....nor any twisting....might be the result of LOTS of practice....who knows...

Instead of watching a bunch of videos of other people's efforts.....just go out and get to work...

[Charles Guest]

Lets see..I have a few by Narex, one from Japan (12mm) one from Witherby, and one or two from the older Buck Bros. Co.

Normally, I use the one closest to the size mortise I need to chop...without going over, size wise....

maybe I just chop differently than some on here...have not had any problems with them getting stuck.....nor any twisting....might be the result of LOTS of practice....who knows...

Instead of watching a bunch of videos of other people's efforts.....just go out and get to work...

Ignorance is bliss. Scarred walls, gouged walls, steps in the walls, ragged, scarred margins at the top of the mortise -- twisting almost always the culprit, compounded by the need/urge to wail on a chisel honed at too high an angle.

[Richard Hutchings]

Steve, the problem with practicing without some knowledge is we just learn to get better using bad technique and are limited by that. We also need to dive in and learn from our mistakes which I do a lot of. I won't wait or stop what I'm doing just because I've never done it before. Some times I wish I had but most times I learn not to do something ever again.:eek:

[steven c newman]

Then LEARN from them.

Charles has NO clue as to what I do.....just another self-appointed guru.

40 +yrs of doing this sort of thing...I just MIGHT have learned a thing or two....

Next trip to the shop, I MIGHT dig out one of each style mortise chisel I happen to have in MY shop.....and..MAYBE, just MAYBE take a photo, or two....IF I remember to, that is....

Go and WATCH a few of Roy Underhills' shows...where he does indeed chop a few mortises....and see how it is done, in real time....without any fancy edits some of these other Gurus use...

Tain't going to learn a thing, sitting here.....are we.

[Jim Koepke]

In my experience a mortise chisel is more likely to twist in use due to the bevel being off square more than being caused by the sides being relieved or squared.

jtk

[steven c newman]

There, that better...SECOND time this month that has happened to photos of mine.....getting VERY tiresome....
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Test...Test....Test...

Retest...
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30 tenons...
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and parts is parts..

[Cory Newman]

I was taught Mortise first. On the tenon, on the face side, chisel a relief adjacent to knife line and angle the shoulder cut in a bit to under cut, on the non face side, saw right down the knife line. That allows the show side to sit tighter and give a better looking joint.

[Charles Guest]

Then LEARN from them.

Charles has NO clue as to what I do.....just another self-appointed guru.

40 +yrs of doing this sort of thing...I just MIGHT have learned a thing or two....

Next trip to the shop, I MIGHT dig out one of each style mortise chisel I happen to have in MY shop.....and..MAYBE, just MAYBE take a photo, or two....IF I remember to, that is....

Go and WATCH a few of Roy Underhills' shows...where he does indeed chop a few mortises....and see how it is done, in real time....without any fancy edits some of these other Gurus use...

Tain't going to learn a thing, sitting here.....are we.

Can't see your pics, but I've got you beat by 18 years or so. I've worked in places where Roy Underhill would have had to start out sweeping floors, and if he didn't improve over what he builds on his shows, very likely stay there.

[Richard Hutchings]

if he didn't improve over what he builds on his shows, very likely stay there.

I love this.:D

[Charles Guest]

In my experience a mortise chisel is more likely to twist in use due to the bevel being off square more than being caused by the sides being relieved or squared.

jtk

I knew a guy that kept them a little off square on purpose -- he swore that it gave a shearing cut (like a guillotine) and made chopping them out easier. He did seem to have better sense of plumb than most and would start the chisel on its corner and sink it right in. Worked for him.

[Jim Koepke]

I knew a guy that kept them a little off square on purpose -- he swore that it gave a shearing cut (like a guillotine) and made chopping them out easier. He did seem to have better sense of plumb than most and would start the chisel on its corner and sink it right in. Worked for him.

Once you get used to the out of square or side sloped bevel, one gets to know how much it will turn. It is simple to align it so after the twist it comes out straight.

There is more than one way to chop a mortise.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

Once you get used to the out of square or side sloped bevel, one gets to know how much it will turn. It is simple to align it so after the twist it comes out straight.

There is more than one way to chop a mortise.

jtk

I don't necessarily buy that the end being honed out of square will make it twist. It will produce an out of plumb mortise if you register the chisel to the wood at the angle on the end. I would say that somebody who unintentionally honed the end out of square, and didn't notice, is going to have all kinds of trouble using hand tools including chopping mortises. This does not apply to you.

[steven c newman]

What bloody ever...And..I suppose Charles is the one that taught Sheraton how to cut a dovetail....Riiiiiggghht......

And, since he hasn't even been to my shop, or stood behind me, looking over my shoulders, and telling me what I am doing wrong.....Meh.

There are so many ways to chop a mortise, or cut a tenon....and..there is NO single right way to do it.....just so much "hot air" going on.

I merely was trying to tell the ways I have used, for decades....YMMV.

Have fun......

[Jim Koepke]

I don't necessarily buy that the end being honed out of square will make it twist.
[edited]

My comment did not say "being honed out of square will make it twist.

My comment was:
In my experience a mortise chisel is more likely to twist in use due to the bevel being off square more than being caused by the sides being relieved or squared.

To make it clearer, if a person is having problems with their chisel twisting when cutting mortises, they may want to inspect the bevel before starting to grind on the sides of the chisel.

It also depends on how much the edge is skewed and how much the bevel creates an angle to one side. The physics of a bevel causes force to push a chisel towards the side away from the bevel. If the bevel has enough slope to one side the driving force will influence one side over the other. A strong grip by the person using the chisel and mallet may be able to counteract the turning force. Of course some of this can be accomplished with the muscle of the arm holding the chisel while using less force with the mallet.

My words:
There is more than one way to chop a mortise.

Stevens words:
There are so many ways to chop a mortise, or cut a tenon....and..there is NO single right way to do it

Have we stated something that is not true?

jtk

[steven c newman]

That would depend on WHO you ask...won't it....

I got work to do..see ya...

[Jim Koepke]

Just for fun a trip to the shop seemed a good idea to illustrate the effect of a skewed bevel.

One of my 1/4" skewed chisels was used on a scrap of wood.

The result:

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It was possible to hold the chisel with a firm grip to make it cut straighter.

jtk

[Oskar Sedell]

usually the order is not so important for me. I mark both tenon and mortise with the same mortise gauge (japanese style, with knifes) (to a mortise width that suits one of my chisels). Then I cut the mortise inside the knife line and the tenon outside of the knife line, or the tenon first :). Usually they fit off the saw, if I´m uncertain or out of practice I leave a hair more on the tenon size. Its easier to adjust the tenon than the mortise.

If I can´t mark both with the same gauge I start with the mortice, for the same reason its easier to adjust the tenon.