Mission style cabinet doors on a Shaper

[Mike Kees]

My question is how others here accomplish these doors. I have used solid braised cutters from Freeborn, an adjustable set from Amana with replaceable carbide cutters and one of my adjustable groovers with a rabbeting head( cut one side of tenon at a time.) I have been thinking of investing in two straight tenon disks the same diameter to stack and cut both sides at once (tenons). What is the thinking on my idea ? Anything I am missing ? I have corg heads and two euro blocks available as well. Maybe I could just get another rabbeting head the same size as one of the two I have as well. Thinking of stacking with spacers and shims to get my thickness right. What would be my best option ?

[Richard Coers]

One mission style I would just use mortise and tenon and forget a matched shaper cutter set.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I enjoy the Freeborn insert style - I just like the radiused corners.
Best option is to use what you have, in the interest of money saving. Since shifting to the insert style, I will be sticking with it.

[brent stanley]

My question is how others here accomplish these doors. I have used solid braised cutters from Freeborn, an adjustable set from Amana with replaceable carbide cutters and one of my adjustable groovers with a rabbeting head( cut one side of tenon at a time.) I have been thinking of investing in two straight tenon disks the same diameter to stack and cut both sides at once (tenons). What is the thinking on my idea ? Anything I am missing ? I have corg heads and two euro blocks available as well. Maybe I could just get another rabbeting head the same size as one of the two I have as well. Thinking of stacking with spacers and shims to get my thickness right. What would be my best option ?

Hi Mike,

I have a few tenon disc options, but I actually have two smaller diameter discs (175mm) on the way to let me do up to 51mm tenons as you describe. Lets me do it inside my standard shaper fences and means I don't have to change it out. There's no reason why you can't do very short tenons with that set-up too, such as what you would find with coped and sticked kitchen cabinet doors. These will give you very square corners, and the adjustable groovers will give you very sharp corners too, which can make it harder to get together, harder to fit the panel in, and depending on what you are doing for finishing, the sharp corner can cause a problem. But that combination will give you infinite flexibility to deal with odd panel thicknesses and make longer than normal tenons/grooves for more glue surface area. For me, these discs will also be my go to for furniture and some sash tenons as I can run them with conventional fences.

If you're doing a lot, a dedicated insert set that permits adjusting the groove for odd panel thicknesses might be a good idea. It will give you a gentle radius for the edge of the groove as well as the ends of the stub tenon and of course will last forever with the replaceable tips.

Knives in the Euroblock are of course a possibility and might be cheapest in the short term, but don't have the same longevity and offer almost no flexibility for odd panel sizes. I don't do enough mission doors (and hope not to in the future!) so can't justify dedicated heads, so have used knives in a limiter head with excellent results. They're good for piles of doors before they dull, are actually quite quick to set up, but will use stacked discs fairly often in the future.

Depending on what shop I'm in and what the other machines are set up for, I will also use my adjustable groover reversed with spacers between the components to make a short tenon. Works well but not all manufacturers recommend it so, good to check.

Any approach that permits milling of the entire edge of the components when doing sticking means you can use an outboard/back fence to bring components down to final width which is a nice feature I would value if doing a lot.

Cheers,

Brent

[Paul Haus]

You can either create your own set or buy some already assembled sets. Simple tongue and groove setup.

[Mike Kees]

Brent thanks for the detailed reply. The 175mm disks are kind of what I was thinking of. Also thought that I would buy common diameter but two different cutting heights to make owning them more versatile yet. Thinking like 3/4'' and 1/2'' maybe ? I am doing this work for a living so completely understand what mission doors are and how to build them. I am about 100 or so doors into this so far and have made do and tried a couple different set ups. The groove part is figured out. Need a repeatable, adjustable (thickness) way to do the tenon portion of the rails . I have determined that I do prefer 5/8'' deep tenons on cabinet doors ,for glue surface and helping to keep doors flat during glue up. Cost is a consideration but I will spend to get the right solution.

[brent stanley]

Brent thanks for the detailed reply. The 175mm disks are kind of what I was thinking of. Also thought that I would buy common diameter but two different cutting heights to make owning them more versatile yet. Thinking like 3/4'' and 1/2'' maybe ? I am doing this work for a living so completely understand what mission doors are and how to build them. I am about 100 or so doors into this so far and have made do and tried a couple different set ups. The groove part is figured out. Need a repeatable, adjustable (thickness) way to do the tenon portion of the rails . I have determined that I do prefer 5/8'' deep tenons on cabinet doors ,for glue surface and helping to keep doors flat during glue up. Cost is a consideration but I will spend to get the right solution.

Having the different height would be a good idea as it allows you to do a tenon offset on thicker stock and still be able to do the higher shoulder with the thicker of the two discs.....good idea. I think I'd be leaning towards the double, mid sized discs. You're probably doing enough to justify a set, but that would include the groove which you don't need. Also, not all of those sets will let you do 5/8" tenon I discovered. Another groover sandwiched in between the two discs opens up the possibility of double tenons if you ever wanted to down the line.

[Mike Kees]

Thanks Brent. It takes a while to think "shaper" . Starting to think more in multiples and stacking cutters. I have two shapers so will now set up to do both cuts on the two machines. Handy to be able to leave setups until I am sure that I will not need any more matching profiles cut.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Mike,

Is this on your RS-15 or a different shaper? I have wanted to have a setup like this on my “little” T100 but I don’t think I could/should go bigger than ~225mm cutting circle due to limited RPM (can’t go lower than 6k.)

Let us know what you decide to go with.

[Mike Kees]

I will probably run the double tenon set up on my Minimax, because it has the sliding table as well as a fence that fits the sliding table. I have used this machine to cut all my tenons so far. Minimax is a T50 (I think) with a sliding table and tilt spindle, 1 1/4'' 5h.p. single phase. Just looked at my RS15 today and it's slow speed is 2800 rpm. I think Minimax goes down to 3000 rpm . Pretty much stays set at 6000 90% of the time. I will most likely stay at 170-180mm diameter. Thanks for asking me this as I need to check the Minimax for max diameter that I can run with it's fence.

[Joe Calhoon]

Mike, there are many ways to do these. Square edge - Shaker- Mission has been the go to here for 25 or more years. Way back we used braised carbide groovers and stacked straight cutters for the stub tenon. I would avoid single sided tenons especially if you are in business. It is a painful process with a lot of variables. For a long time we used stacking Felder-Stark 125mm Z2 rebate heads for the cope or a smallish tenon if desired. Those used to go on sale in the Christmas catalog fairly inexpensive. Their fixing system is not great and you have to be careful changing the inserts because a little miss alignment will show up when assembling. Otherwise decent cutters for the price. I bet the Freeborn inserts Jeff mentioned are good. Never tried any of their inserts but they were always my favorite for braised tooling.

Nowdays I usually use my 160mm diameter Garniga Multiuse for the stub tenon or true tenon up to 50mm and a adjustable groover for the slot. The adjustable groovers are a simple setup but only effective if you have a clean edge on your S4S material to start with. All mine come off Tersa heads and are as clean as any insert shaper cutter. If your planer is lacking you will be better off with a sticking cut that takes the whole edge with either the split fence or outboard fence.

Back when we did whole house projects with cabinets and doors I had Garniga make a sticking set on sleeve that could do doors from cabinet size up to 68mm thick entry’s. It is a nice set that I still use a lot and will radius the panel groove and outside edges if desired with 2 setting for depth. The radius on the panel groove is nice but also don’t mine sharp and crisp there and have never had problems assembling these if the fit is careful. For cabinets I run this one on the outboard fence and house doors with a well tuned split fence. This cutter makes a exceptionally good edge with the razor sharp shear cutting inserts. I still find myself using just a adjustable groover a lot because of the simple setup.
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Whatever method I use I like having the groove to be adjustable.
lately I have been doing cabinets for myself with through tenons. None of my 160mm diameter cutters would do a tenon that deep in 2 1/2” stiles and had to use 250mm disks for the tenon. All my shapers will take 250 inside the fence and used the bolt on sliding table to cut the tenons.
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Another cutter you might take a look at is Rangate’s bevel Shaker set. We use that in the Alpine courses and it is a nice set. The bevel is slight and clean with a stub tenon that is fairly deep and probably does not need reinforcement with dowel or Domino. I do anyway but that is just me. It Has a door thickness range of about 19 to 25mm. One big advantage of the bevel is you do not have to ease the inside edge by hand after assembly and wide belt sanding.
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[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mike, I use an adjustable groover for the groove and an adjustable groover flipped inside out to cut both cheeks on the tendon in one pass.

Regards, Rod.

[brent stanley]

Mike, I would be tempted to get as large a pair of discs as you can fit into your standard fences. Typically the cost increment as you go up a diameter class is pretty small and the bigger they are the more flexible they are with respect to what you can do with them. I have 350mm diameter discs which of course require a tenoning hood, and really my objective with the smaller ones is to avoid changing out the fence/hood for just a few doors.

Years ago I had a brazed carbide set that was adjustable for different panel thicknesses and it was a bear to get set up perfectly. I probably did 10 kitchens with it and am really glad to have move on from that. I find that for production, being able to bring your stock down to final width using an outboard fence while running the sticking is faster to set up and skips a separate "widthing" step that you would otherwise have to make. Something to think about if you end up doing a lot of it down the line.

[Jared Sankovich]

I've used my 170mm 20-39mm groover to cut tenons. They work just like a set of stacked tenon disc's.

[Rod Sheridan]

I've used my 170mm 20-39mm groover to cut tenons. They work just like a set of stacked tenon disc's.

Agreed, I use a smaller groover to do the same thing…..Rod.

[brent stanley]

Typically if you follow the rule of thirds (which isn't always possible if you're restricted by odd thicknesses of commercial sheet stock) you can't use the same adjustable groover set to cut the groove as cut the two shoulders, depending on the design. So you'd have to have two sets. If you have to purchase additional tooling, it's a decision between: doing shorter tenons and have an additional groover in the arsenal or being able to do longer tenons with the larger discs. Many adjustable groover designs have flanges that limit how long a tenon can be formed with one and often tenon discs of the same diameter are capable of longer tenons. It's a trade-off or balance that would be weighed differently by every shop depending on what they do and work flow, budgets etc.

[Mike Kees]

So was working at my shop most of today and figured out a bunch of things : my Minimax shapers speeds are 1700 ,4000,7000 and 10000 rpm. The standard fence maxes out at 180mm diameter. This is the diameter of my two adjustable grooving sets. Tried out inverting and stacking my thicker adjustable groover ( thanks Rod )and it seems like it will work fine. I have already been running door stock through my one shaper with an outboard fence to get final width and "jointed" square edge so can see the benefit and time savings of being able to do this all in one pass you have mentioned Brent. Thanks also to Joe for the pile of useful information, I really want to take your shaper course hope to be in touch soon about that.

[brent stanley]

So was working at my shop most of today and figured out a bunch of things : my Minimax shapers speeds are 1700 ,4000,7000 and 10000 rpm. The standard fence maxes out at 180mm diameter. This is the diameter of my two adjustable grooving sets. Tried out inverting and stacking my thicker adjustable groover ( thanks Rod )and it seems like it will work fine. I have already been running door stock through my one shaper with an outboard fence to get final width and "jointed" square edge so can see the benefit and time savings of being able to do this all in one pass you have mentioned Brent. Thanks also to Joe for the pile of useful information, I really want to take your shaper course hope to be in touch soon about that.


Hi Mike, I mentioned inverting the adjustable groover in the first post, but was a little hesitant to do so. Not all manufacturers suggest it for their sets, but many will also lose their MAN rating when running without the two companion pieces nested together, if that's a concern.

[Warren Lake]

have you looked at your shaper manual? usually they will tell you what max size you can use and what RPM. Last I looked on one shaper was 300MM max, and 200 - 300 MM you run at 2,900 RPM. That is only that shaper though.

What i last cut was with adjustable groovers from an auction likely cost less than 150.00 for the two and put new cutters in. Nobeltek was the manufacturer and got the new cutters from them and think their prices were better and likely the made in Germany cutters. Not sure if the head is MECH or MAN, I dont care. There are different cabinet doors the small ones on kitchens then larger cabinet doors like Armoires. They are both cabinet doors but when I get to an armoire they might be 1 1/4" thick or more. Even more if its partial inset.

Cutters I bought are 40MM so have to bush them but they came with the bushings then its just figure out how to combine them which is harder on two things where the space between will change. Those small ones give me a 1 5/8" tennon from memory and that length also depends on your spacers as they will limit the length of the tennon. On a small cabinet door that is 2 1/4" wide style the 1 5/8" long tennon is fine.

[Mike Kees]

Brent the MAN rating does not affect me here as I feed everything with a power feed. As far as I am aware that is the purpose of these ratings ? Am I right that they are there to tell you cutter is designed to be safe to handfeed (MAN) or cutter should only be used with a power feeder (MECH). Am I missing additional information here ?

[Larry Edgerton]

I used stacked groovers with spacers for the tenons and an adjustable groover for the slot, and then finish out the mortises for the long tenons on the mortising machine. I only do about three kitchens a year so this works for me.

[brent stanley]

Brent the MAN rating does not affect me here as I feed everything with a power feed. As far as I am aware that is the purpose of these ratings ? Am I right that they are there to tell you cutter is designed to be safe to handfeed (MAN) or cutter should only be used with a power feeder (MECH). Am I missing additional information here ?

Hi Mike, in Europe the MAN rating is actually required even for machines with a power feeder, whereas things like a moulder and CNC kit can use both MAN and MECH rated tooling. Typically of course with tenoning on a shaper it's not done with a power feeder, though I've seen some wild settups!

None of this is a requirement in North America of course, so I just mention it as an FYI because some people are more concerned about it than others.

Cheers,

B

[Jared Sankovich]

Hi Mike, in Europe the MAN rating is actually required even for machines with a power feeder, whereas things like a moulder and CNC kit can use both MAN and MECH rated tooling. Typically of course with tenoning on a shaper it's not done with a power feeder, though I've seen some wild settups!

None of this is a requirement in North America of course, so I just mention it as an FYI because some people are more concerned about it than others.

Cheers,

B


The swine tail video was interesting. Not going to stop me from using non limited heads but I may keep my fingers farther away.

[Warren Lake]

One of the insert heads I have is MECH, Ive hand run it for rabbets and flush trim. Either way there is zero hint of unhappyness. The only thing I feel is it has more push resitance than serrated. Its effortless compared to the insert. Sharper cutter different angles.

Wheres the problem with the MECH hand fed and why didnt it kick back or misbehave in anyway ?

[Jared Sankovich]

One of the insert heads I have is MECH, Ive hand run it for rabbets and flush trim. Either way there is zero hint of unhappyness. The only thing I feel is it has more push resitance than serrated. Its effortless compared to the insert. Sharper cutter different angles.

Wheres the problem with the MECH hand fed and why didnt it kick back or misbehave in anyway ?

Euro regulations are about knife projection (mec/man) the MAN rated has a limit on how much the knives project from the body (or limiter) nothing about kickback. Sort of the square heads vs round.

[brent stanley]

The swine tail video was interesting. Not going to stop me from using non limited heads but I may keep my fingers farther away.

Yeah, that was pretty telling wasn't it!? That stayed with me for a while.

[Warren Lake]

There is likely no difference in knife projection on either a man or Mech flush trim head and the same small inserts. Im asking what the difference is one is hand feed one is mechanical. why is one a hand feed and the other supposed to be machine only. It was fine in hamd fed use so what makes it not fine?

Knife projection does have a relation to kick back. More to grab equals more to kick back. Ive yet to have a shaper kick back on any cutter style.

Was there a video on here that i missed?

[Mike Kees]

OK so have come to a decision. I am going to use my groover as Rod and Jared have suggested on this job. Then will either stick with this or buy the tenon disks for future. I really like the adjustable groover for matching ever variable thickness panels inside my doors so want to stick with that. Thanks to everyone for the posts and verification of what I was thinking.

[brent stanley]

OK so have come to a decision. I am going to use my groover as Rod and Jared have suggested on this job. Then will either stick with this or buy the tenon disks for future. I really like the adjustable groover for matching ever variable thickness panels inside my doors so want to stick with that. Thanks to everyone for the posts and verification of what I was thinking.

That's probably what I would do too. The option that you already have is often the cheapest/best!

[Rod Sheridan]

One of the insert heads I have is MECH, Ive hand run it for rabbets and flush trim. Either way there is zero hint of unhappyness. The only thing I feel is it has more push resitance than serrated. Its effortless compared to the insert. Sharper cutter different angles.

Wheres the problem with the MECH hand fed and why didnt it kick back or misbehave in anyway ?


Hi Warren, you can be fine hand feeding a MEC cutter until suddenly you aren’t, just like any kickback incident.

MAN rated cutters reduce both the incidence of kickbacks, and the energy of the kickback.

It’s just like not wearing a motorcycle helmet, everything’s OK until the instant your head hits the concrete…..Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

That's probably what I would do too. Cheapest option that you already have is often the best!

Hi Brent, in my opinion the cheapest option I have may only be the cheapest option I have, not the best.😀

Regards, Rod

[Warren Lake]

Kick backs have a reason to cause them. Do something wrong and anything can kick back, throw a pieces of wood at a jointer head and it will kick back. Throw a piece of wood at a router bit and it will kick back.

There is MECH and MAN what is the difference in why one is okay to hand feed and one is not. Its a logical question.

Whats causing the kick back? You are fine till suddenly you arent? what does that mean? You are feeding wood into a cutter, there are no reasons for that to kick back.

[brent stanley]

Hi Brent, in my opinion the cheapest option I have may only be the cheapest option I have, not the best.😀

Regards, Rod

You'll probably find the split adjustable groover will give excellent results though discs with more mass will perform a little better with heavier cuts. Not many small adjustable groovers today have shear cut knives whereas dedicated tenon discs can, so they may be superior in the bigger picture. But if something you already own is already giving results you like, it's the cheapest (and "best") solution all things considered!

[brent stanley]

Kick backs have a reason to cause them. Do something wrong and anything can kick back, throw a pieces of wood at a jointer head and it will kick back. Throw a piece of wood at a router bit and it will kick back.

There is MECH and MAN what is the difference in why one is okay to hand feed and one is not. Its a logical question.

Whats causing the kick back? You are fine till suddenly you arent? what does that mean? You are feeding wood into a cutter, there are no reasons for that to kick back.

MAN is kind of like a seat belt in that you don't need it until you do. A MAN rated block will kick back if you do something wrong but the kickback is less likely to happen and it will be less severe if it does. It also won't auto feed you hand if you erroneously get it in there. Makes the difference between losing the tip of your finger and hamburger hand. In Europe, it is deemed acceptable to hand feed a MAN rated tool because they offer a layer of safety in addition to proper training.

I don't have data to support it, but I would guess that the majority of historical kickbacks are a result of someone doing something wrong. Either because they were not trained, trained incorrectly or just human and goofed up....because they're human. There are also scenarios where the unpredictable happen and things go south and there's a kickback. MAN rated tooling just gives another layer of safety. I've never once needed my seat belt but still put it on every day.

[Joe Calhoon]

One of the insert heads I have is MECH, Ive hand run it for rabbets and flush trim. Either way there is zero hint of unhappyness. The only thing I feel is it has more push resitance than serrated. Its effortless compared to the insert. Sharper cutter different angles.

Wheres the problem with the MECH hand fed and why didnt it kick back or misbehave in anyway ?

Warren, for insert tools with the thin carbide cutters the difference between MEC and MAN is hardly noticeable since the cutter projection from the body is about the same. It’s mostly in the gullet width or sometimes if a large slotting cutter or some kind of special insert is mounted on the body.
the head on the right is a MEC 320 diameter tenon head and on the left a MAN tenon head about the same size. The MEC tool is off a mechanical fed window machine but I have no problem running it on the shaper. The MAN one will cut less of your fingers or hand off if you get in the cutter. I don’t plan on getting my fingers near any of these. The MEC cutters actually clear chips better and have a little less pushback than the MAN.
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Because power feeds are removable they are considered MAN feed and any Tenoner without a powered sliding table is considered MAN. Don’t kid yourself the experienced hands in Europe break the rules occasionally. In reality with a proper set feeder these tools are safe on the shaper. Same with a well clamped sliding table.
I’m surprised you think the corrugated heads have less pushback. That has not been my experience. I don’t like doing curve work with corrugated. Done it a lot in the past but not with deep cuts anymore. We set up a Soukup machine in a shop where a employee lost his arm up to his elbow hand feeding a corrugated head. I don’t know all the details but I guess they were lucky to have a EMT on staff to stop the bleeding.
Here is a top of the line limiter cutter from Leitz for deep profiles. This cutter has less pushback than any other cutter this size. 5mm high quality HSS, shear cutting and a high precision fixing system. I tried one of these in the Martin factory a while back. The cutters though take a long time since they have to come from Germany. When I bought this they thought they could make the knives here but not so. Cuts like a hot knife in butter!

I would add that I know most here are hobby woodworkers or have limited experience in shaping. Until you have more experience using limiter cutters and starting with smaller diameter cutters is a good safe idea.
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[brent stanley]

This is an insert head (Byrd) that is not MAN rated due to the perched cutters effectively creating a deep gullet in front of the cutter like Joe described. I've designed some shaper tooling and have the whole technical documentation that describes what is required for MAN rating. I find it fascinating, but many would find it a cure for insomnia!

The projection of the individual cutters matters but also the whole form of the cutter all the way around the circumference. There are a lot of devils in many details. More cutter projection is permitted in round form blocks than limiter style blocks for example, for obvious reasons.

Joe is that Leitz cone head also shear cutting??? The knives are in there on an angle? That's very cool, I'd love to see the wedge block/securing apparatus on that head.473715