Maksiwa - Cantek - Laguna Sliders

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hey all, some of you make have seen my post about buying a slider recently. I listed a lot of info and questions there, but posting this one separately simply to ask if anyone out there has had any at all experience with and of the sliding table saws offered from either Maksiwa, Cantek, or Laguna? Most of the folks here have mentioned experiences with SCM, Martin, Felder/Hammer, Altendorf, and some others and I'm interested in those too....but in my budget falls a bunch of other machines including a few from these below and no one has really talked about them... The specific models I'm looking at from each are the....

Maksiwa 3200 line - very hard to understand the differences between their models though
Cantek P305 - would prefer an 8.5ft machine but this one seems to offer good value coming in around 9k in seems and 10ft
Laguna P12/5 - This is the short stroke model. The 8ft version is a little past my price point, but might consider this SS if I decide to go that route.

Countries of Origin also seems to be in question....

Maksiwa supposedly has factories in 3 different countries
Cantek claims to be made in Taiwan
Laguna I have no idea where the sliders are made....I think a lot of there stuff is made overseas and they were/are involved with Robland but I don't know where the sliders come from.


Again really curious if anyone has had hands on any of these models or at least the brands sliders. Thanks!

[Dan Friedrichs]

Kurt, have you seen this thread?
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?265986-Importing-Combination-Machine-from-China-as-an-Individual-My-Adventure-(So-Far)

[Dave Roock]

Maksiwa is a Brazilian company, probable manufactured there. Interesting to discover.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt, have you seen this thread?
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?265986-Importing-Combination-Machine-from-China-as-an-Individual-My-Adventure-(So-Far)

Hi Dan, Yes, I did actually see that thread. And I've actually seen those Zicar etc saws online and been intrigued myself. I might give the thread a full read again because it seems like there is a huge savings potential there, but I am not sure I have the stomach to go through it as I can't have my shop down for a long time as I'm doing it for a living. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Maksiwa is a Brazilian company, probable manufactured there. Interesting to discover.

I read it some where as a response from the company with someone who had asked the question of where they are built. They mentioned 3 locations one of which was China...I don't actually think they mentioned building anything in Brazil, but I know that's where it is located and they advertise being the #1 panel saw company in South America....who knows....still trying to find people who have seen or used one.

[Kevin Jenness]

Maksiwa is pretty new in the US market, so it may be hard to find users. You could pm Osvaldo Cristo on this forum as he is in Brazil and might know something about the brand.

Cantek is an Asian brand imported by Akhurst Machinery for over 20 years. I have seen some favorable references to the line on Woodweb. Akhurst is based in Canada so it might be worth asking on the Canadian Woodworking Forum as well as Woodweb.

Laguna certainly has had its share of customer service complaints over the years, it seems to be less of a problem now.

I'm sorry I can't comment on theses saws based on experience, but I would take into consideration the overall record and solidity of whoever is going to stand behind the machine in case of problems.

[Erik Loza]

There are several shops in my territory that have what I would call any of the mass-produced East Asian clone brands of sliding panel saw. Knocked-off Italian or German designs but marketed on low selling price. None of these owners seem truly impressed. More like, "I know there are better brands but this is what I could afford". One owner told me that basically every bolt was loose on the machine he received and that he spent several days handling all that on his own time. And still requires checking on the regular. The other complaint I hear is off crosscut fences requiring complete recalibration if ever moved off 90 degrees. Based on what I have seen, my suggestion would be to stick to Italian or Austrian if you want new. If you can't afford new, I would keep an eye open for a used Italian machine. Or possibly a used Robland Z3200. Good luck in your search.

Erik

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Maksiwa is pretty new in the US market, so it may be hard to find users. You could pm Osvaldo Cristo on this forum as he is in Brazil and might know something about the brand.

Cantek is an Asian brand imported by Akhurst Machinery for over 20 years. I have seen some favorable references to the line on Woodweb. Akhurst is based in Canada so it might be worth asking on the Canadian Woodworking Forum as well as Woodweb.

Laguna certainly has had its share of customer service complaints over the years, it seems to be less of a problem now.

I'm sorry I can't comment on theses saws based on experience, but I would take into consideration the overall record and solidity of whoever is going to stand behind the machine in case of problems.

Curious to know more about this....on Cantek's site they don't mention Akhurst best I can see they say North American brand since 1985 and that the equipment is produced in Taiwan....https://cantekamerica.com/about/#toggle-id-2-closed

As for Maksiwa, you're right seems relatively new here, but I would think that there have to be some people on here who have had their hands on one. They seem like nice machines, but you can only tell so much from a picture.

I guess the big question becomes is what is the quality difference between the Taiwan imports vs Euro and then vs Chinese? I think my JET was made in Taiwan and I can tell you vs the US Delta that was made at the time (my Dad bought at the same time as me) my saw was hands down better fit and finish...and has worked very well. But that's of course just one slightly related experience.

Best I can tell, there are really only 2 components that set these saws apart from typical American style cabinet saws....the motor/drive system and the slider itself. I tend to think that the motors are probably on par with a lot of brands across the board especially those using reputable brands (in cabinets) like Baldor or Leeson but I am sure there can be some quality differences. The trunion system likewise better heavier metal is typically going to win. So then it would seem that the biggest component is the quality of the slider itself and the overall accuracy/calibration/fit finish of the machines. So for me this then becomes who makes the best slider for the money?

Maybe I'm just rambling my random thoughts about this, but this is a difficult process for people relatively new to this style of saw who haven't worked in industrial shops before. And really just trying to get some a better understanding through others experiences. The biggest downside is that this type of stuff can't really be found in a showroom or anything to just go put your hands on it because that would make this type of choice sooooo much easier :)

[Kurt Wyberanec]

There are several shops in my territory that have what I would call any of the mass-produced East Asian clone brands of sliding panel saw. Knocked-off Italian or German designs but marketed on low selling price. None of these owners seem truly impressed. More like, "I know there are better brands but this is what I could afford". One owner told me that basically every bolt was loose on the machine he received and that he spent several days handling all that on his own time. And still requires checking on the regular. The other complaint I hear is off crosscut fences requiring complete recalibration if ever moved off 90 degrees. Based on what I have seen, my suggestion would be to stick to Italian or Austrian if you want new. If you can't afford new, I would keep an eye open for a used Italian machine. Or possibly a used Robland Z3200. Good luck in your search.

Erik

Thanks Erik, I have such mixed opinions about Chinese goods it's not funny. They have come a very long way and half the places make garbage and half make great products. It's really hard to know the difference and quality control can definitely be an issue. Some of the other countries in Asia have slightly better reputations for certain types of products but I am unfamiliar with machinery reputations there. The one thing that concerns me about Chinese goods is the steel itself. Something like 98% of the scrap metal in the US is sold to China just to be recycled into whatever they want. There is so much impurity in the metals it's not funny. One of the reasons why for instance you might still have old drill bits from your Dad US or German made from 50 years ago that still cut well and why you might have broke 4 Chinese bits in the last year!

I know obviously you have a stake in Austrian stuff and we know about your experience with Italy....but I'm curious if you can give a good assessment of how Robland (as you mentioned) actually stacks up against them? Are they actually made in Belgium or do they outsource too? My big issue with new from them is it appears (without speaking to a rep) that the biggest single phase motor they offer is 3hp and I really want to get around a 5 and even though the Phase Perfect system seems attractive I don't know that it's really worth it for me to look into because it'll take 2k+ away from the machine budget.

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Robland is now associated with Martin for importing/distribution.

https://martin-usa.com/news/robland-complements-product-portfolio/

[Mark e Kessler]

Curious to know more about this....on Cantek's site they don't mention Akhurst best I can see they say North American brand since 1985 and that the equipment is produced in Taiwan....https://cantekamerica.com/about/#toggle-id-2-closed


I guesaccuracy/calibration/fit finish of the machines. So for me this then becomes who makes the best


For me spending $1-2k on a asian bandsaw, sander, CS whatever is a lot lower risk then spending 5-8k on a slider. A lot needs to be right on a slider for you to gain the benefits, it goes without saying you get what you pay for (in general) - less money = less precision/repeatability, reliability, fit and finish, features, way to adjust those features ect.

Aside from potentially the Altendorf that is made in China (WA series) I’ve never even consider anything but a European saw, you really can’t go wrong with an scmi, Felder however my additional comment on that is if you buy the lower end you have a variation of what I pointed out above where you get what you pay for but a bump up from an asian saw.

When I started out there was no internet (accessible to me) with tons of information and research to figure out what you needed, you went to your industrial supplier (or a trade show) that sold a few brands and relied on their expertise to match a machine with your requirements and budget. The other thing that wasn’t around (at least that i had seen) were all these lower end saws, scmi had mini max and thats what I went with initially then upgrading within scm. My personal opinion is that most of these lower end saws have been value engineered to make them affordable (or seem affordable in the beginning) and you get what you pay for (have I said it enough :)).


One thing i would be thinking about is how long do you plan on having this saw? Just for awhile so you can figure out what you really want long term, or you want to buy once and be done with it, if it’s the latter how long 20-30 years? If so that 10-15k ain’t so bad. I doubt one of those asian saws will be around in that time, at least one that still holds it’s settings - you could by an upper end scm that is 20 yrs old for little money and it will preform better than a new asian saw.

it’s a lot of effort to get one of these delivered, installed, working the way you like ect to be switching them out - you are essentially stuck with it once you get it and for me spending a few thousand more to get all the features I want/can’t take later is a lot easier to swallow then realizing after the fact that you should have done it from the beginning.

[Kevin Jenness]

Curious to know more about this....on Cantek's site they don't mention Akhurst best I can see they say North American brand since 1985 and that the equipment is produced in Taiwan....https://cantekamerica.com/about/#toggle-id-2-closed

I guess the big question becomes is what is the quality difference between the Taiwan imports vs Euro and then vs Chinese?... who makes the best slider for the money?


I guess it's more accurate to say Cantek is an American subsidiary of Akhurst, which is Canadian. https://www.akhurst.com/history/

As to quality, I think you have to look at the specific machines. Asian factories can produce whatever quality level their clients demand. Then it's on the importers to back up their promises. I appreciate your quandary and I think you will have to cast your net wide to find users of the more obscure brands. Ideally the importers would be able to steer you to satisfied customers who would be happy to show off their machines. Good luck with that.

I was interested and actually a bit surprised to read Erik's post on your other thread that you could get a basic full size European slider for under $12k - that's real money and beyond your budget but at least it gives you a benchmark.

I will add a quote from a post on buying unfamiliar technology by Gary Campbell - not the same but analogous and related to Mark's point.

"NEVER purchase a CNC Router with price as a primary concern.
Find a machine that fits your needs and then save your money until you can purchase that machine." (Keith Outten)

What Keith says is very true and SHOULD be applied to virtually any equipment purchase. Tools and equipment are an investment, and as such have an expected return. That return, over time drives the amount of the investment. That investment, divided by years determines the annual budget. You need to determine if the gain in production will offset the annual costs.

"Budget" is a verb. It only becomes a noun after all the calculations are done and is approved by all parties.

If your purchase is not for business, and there is not an expected return on investment, then it is a toy, not a tool. If it is a toy, then use the price of items to determine your "need". But do not make the error of using the word "budget" when you mean "price". The "amount you have" or "the amount you wish to spend" are just that, not a budget.

[Mike Kees]

Kurt I told you about the Cantek slider I ran into on the other thread. I live in Alberta and Ackhurst machinery has a dealer in Edmonton. Cantek machines that I have seen and used are a 12'' parallel jointer and a 20'' planer( P20HV).I own this planer. They make some very good machines, the ones already mentioned as well as Shapers.I was ready to buy one of the shapers when I found a Delta RS 15 for peanuts. I have yet to see a person raving about their sliders, not saying they are not good too just not near as many out there as the other machines it seems. I specifically asked one of the sales guys at Ackhurst if he could point me to a user of one of the sliders in my area to check out. When I contacted the user they had only had it for a month ,I never did go see it as I found a great deal on my Felder used. Like others have said in this thread I would be inclined to stick with a known quality machine when it comes to sliding table saws.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt I told you about the Cantek slider I ran into on the other thread. I live in Alberta and Ackhurst machinery has a dealer in Edmonton. Cantek machines that I have seen and used are a 12'' parallel jointer and a 20'' planer( P20HV).I own this planer. They make some very good machines, the ones already mentioned as well as Shapers.I was ready to buy one of the shapers when I found a Delta RS 15 for peanuts. I have yet to see a person raving about their sliders, not saying they are not good too just not near as many out there as the other machines it seems. I specifically asked one of the sales guys at Ackhurst if he could point me to a user of one of the sliders in my area to check out. When I contacted the user they had only had it for a month ,I never did go see it as I found a great deal on my Felder used. Like others have said in this thread I would be inclined to stick with a known quality machine when it comes to sliding table saws.

Must have missed that part Mike, thanks for the info!

[Richard Coers]

You don't think "you get what you pay for" applies with sliders? No way would I go low end shopping for a supplier. Do you think you can rebuild the wagon with parts from them in 5-10 years when it wears out?

[Mark e Kessler]

Hi Dan, Yes, I did actually see that thread. And I've actually seen those Zicar etc saws online and been intrigued myself. I might give the thread a full read again because it seems like there is a huge savings potential there, but I am not sure I have the stomach to go through it as I can't have my shop down for a long time as I'm doing it for a living. Thanks for bringing it up.

Some how I missed the part where you were doing it for a living and couldn’t afford the down time, I would be looking at nothing less than a mid level saw new or a used higher end saw that is ready to go. The efficiency you are gona gain (if you learn how to use it properly) will have it paid for in no time.

[Erik Loza]

Kurt, my suggestion would be to get these off brands out of your head. Go Italian or Austrian or like Mark said, hold out for a clean used Euro machine. Griggio, Lazzari, Sicar, etc. are all fine but who you gonna' call when something breaks? What do they say about cars? "Cheap", "Fast", or "Reliable". Pick two because you can't have all three.

Erik

[Patrick Kane]

I have no experience with the brands you ask about, other than i see Cantek stuff at auction pretty often. Usually it is their 24" planer they made in the 90s into 2000s. Looks very similar to the Powermatic 201, which in turn looks like a copy of the Delta 22-470 planer. I remember posts over time commenting on this planer's performance and it being a reliable machine. For the life of me, i cannot remember someone posting about a Cantek slider. There is a small shop in boston that has a youtube channel doing residential remodels. Fairly mid to high level remodels. I am pretty sure the slider in their shop is a cantek. It looks like they produce good cabinet and finish carpentry work, but their equipment leaves a lot to be desired. They are probably on instagram or similar so you can message them about the machine.

Another shop that i have more respect and admiration for is Goebel Furniture. A year or two ago they replaced the majority of the machines in their shop with an import brand ive never heard of before, maybe Ironwood? It was pretty big equipment--30" helical head planer, 16-20" jointer, 10-12' sliding table saw, and a SLR. From what i can tell, these guys have a good clientele and arent hurting for high end business. In addition, they have multiple old arn american machines, and i assume they know a quality machine and wouldnt buy junk. Still, unusual to see a shop like that NOT buy Martin/SCM.

Like Mike says, i would be wary to venture out on your own to save a few bucks. I know i can rely on forums and a group of people to answer questions or troubleshoot a problem on a 20 year old SCM/Felder/Martin machine. The fact that no one knows anyone with a Cantek slider means you are more than likely on your own.

[Mike Wilkins]

I have had a Laguna Pro short stroke model for over 10 years and love it. I don't have enough space in my shop for a longer sliding bed (16 X 32) but I am OK with that. No problems at all during that time; I did fabricate a metal frame to hold the overhead dust collection hose. I do not use the outrigger set-up very much, but it hangs on the wall and ready when needed. Mine has the scoring option which is also not used much unless I am sizing a lot of plywood for a project.
There are other short stroke machines on the market such as SCM and Hammer. If I was getting one today I would take a serious look at the Hammer machines; I love my A3-41 jointer/planer.

[Paul J Kelly]

This just showed up today...

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/quaker-city-auction/catalogue-id-bscqu10198/lot-45d7cb89-1074-4144-9424-ae270178725e?utm_source=bsc_bespoke_AUC&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=quaker-city-auction&utm_content=bscqu10198&utm_term=20220208

Ironwood slider...

PK

[David M Peters]

I recently went through the same decision agony late last year while in the market for a "hobbyist" single phase 10' slider having considered the same brands (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14TEgpbXGulvQsysSNCSij2lvz-Oe798hVJ7tTCodRtg/edit?usp=sharing).

Because I really hope to have this saw for a 20+ years I wound up ordering a Minimax 315es. I didn't feel confident having support that far out, even with Laguna. They might discontinue selling those saws at some point; easy enough for them because it's just a rebadged import.

(and a data point for others out there.. I ordered 11/16, and the current ETA is 2/28 for delivery to port. oof)

[Patrick Kane]

This just showed up today...

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/quaker-city-auction/catalogue-id-bscqu10198/lot-45d7cb89-1074-4144-9424-ae270178725e?utm_source=bsc_bespoke_AUC&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=quaker-city-auction&utm_content=bscqu10198&utm_term=20220208

Ironwood slider...

PK

I saw that auction. Something tells me there is a sad story behind a bunch of 2020 machines getting auctioned off. The sander is very interesting, but sadly far far too big and power hungry for me space.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

This just showed up today...

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/quaker-city-auction/catalogue-id-bscqu10198/lot-45d7cb89-1074-4144-9424-ae270178725e?utm_source=bsc_bespoke_AUC&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=quaker-city-auction&utm_content=bscqu10198&utm_term=20220208

Ironwood slider...

PK

They seem pretty good and so far that's a good deal but I would bet it goes up quite a bit. I can't say for sure but I think they are all 3 phase though and I want to try to stick to single....that said it is crazy how you have to have everything ready to take it the next day....

[Jim Becker]

Auctions are kinda like that...they want the cash immediately and they want the thang you bought gone lickety-split, too...

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have been following your threads and think you’re looking for a unicorn that doesn’t really exist. I would buy a used Phase Perfect and the look for the nicest used Italian, German and Austrian 8.5’ + slider I could find close enough by that was under a goal of ~$8k and call it done - or save longer and wait until you can find a quality used Euro slider.

You get what you pay for and I personally think you’re barking up the wrong tree with expectations of off brand Asian sliders being reliable and precise over the long term.

[Frank Nadell]

Hello Ryan, I have been following your threads with interest. I too was in the market for a slider recently. A bit of history first. I was a professional cabinetmaker and then Furnituremaker for 26 years. I changed careers 20 years ago and am now approaching retirement and working on setting up a shop again. I have owned 2 short stroke sliders in the past a Griggio and then an EMA KS 1600. My current 864 sq ft garage shop does not have 3 phase power so I stated looking to see if I could find a good accurate slider with a single phase motor. My budget was $6-$10k. The Laguna 12/5 peaked my interest but after 2 emails and 2 phone calls to customer service with no reply I gave up on Laguna. I was trying to find out if the saw is Dado capable which is essential for me. I then started looking at Minimax, Felder / Hammer and Altendorf. The Hammer K3 Winner started to look interesting at around $6k. I was also getting info on the Altendorf WA6 which I later found out is not Dado capable so that pursuit ended. If running a dado or groover is not import to you they might be a good choice. Cantek and Maksiwa both make what looks like good sliders but I could not find anything good or bad from owners/ users online. Felder and Minimax both have online Groups.io chats which I find a big plus for those brands. I have a woodworker friend that recently upgraded to a Minimax SC 3C. It is a very nice machine that my friend is very happy with. He bought it from Elite Metal Tools which took his old slider in trade. He is very happy with his experience with Elite. The SC 3C is quite a bit lighter than the Italian saws I had used before. I think the Hammer and Minimax lines are probably quite similar. I was having good correspondence with Elite and I like that they publish prices are on their website. I found out about Sam Blasco and had correspondence with him regarding Minimax machines. If you are shopping Minimax I highly recommend talking to Sam. Having a knowledgeable person to talk to makes it much more comfortable dropping thousands and thousands of dollars on something never seen or touched. Speaking with Sam gave me the confidence to purchase a Minimax FS30cx jointer /planer. During my research the Minimax SC 3C and SC 2C saws did not quite answer my wants needs. Minimax does make and sell a lot of equipment for good reason and maybe one of these saws could answer your needs. They have a variety of models and price points for most peoples needs and have dealers all over the country. My journey began to take me back me to Felder/ Hammer. They are offered in a number of variations and quite a number of accessories are also available. I was talking to Elizabeth Rogers at Felder Sacramento. (1 866-792-5288 ext. 209) and I cannot say enough good things about her. She is extremely knowledgeable about the whole Felder/ Hammer line and all the variations. Emails and phone messages are answered either immediately or within a couple hours. Talking on the phone with her she is quick to point out the positives but also tell you if something about a machine may not meet one’s high expectations. She put me in touch with a woodworker about 40 miles from me that has a number of Felder machines. I did visit this guy and got to lay my hands on a Felder slider and was happy with what I saw and the owner had nothing but good things to say about his equipment. He also dealt with Elizabeth and raved about her like I am now. I learned of Erik Loza on this forum (but have not spoken to him yet) which may be another source of info on the Felder products. After a lot of analysis, I ended up ordering a Felder K500P. This saw is a $2k step up in price over the Hammer K3 Winner and uses the X Roll sliding table common to all the upper end Felder saws. Felder has been making the X Roll system since the mid 70’s and having a 10 year warranty on the slider is unprecedented. One downside to the particular saw I ordered is that it is not a model that is imported for dealer inventory. To the best of my knowledge the Hammer saws and the K700’s are imported for stock in the US. The 500 series Felders are kind of tweeners, in between the $6-$7k Hammer line and the $12-$35k Felder and $+$+ Format lines. The K500P is custom made to order, being such, I will not see my saw till later in the year. For me a well made and finely tuned short stroke slider is a real joy to use. Yes all good sliders can be very good for dimensioning solid wood and panels. For me a slider has always been a fantastic joinery tool. Jigs and fixtures to cut finger joints, tenons, miters with and without splines, cuts on curved and compound curved parts…. the list goes on. If you can figure a way to hold a part (of any shape) on the slider, presenting that part to the sawblade, dado or groover makes for a very versatile tool and can bring great results to your projects. I think a good quality accurate slider would bring a great level of precision and open many new possibilities to your speaker cabinet and furniture projects. Apologies for the long-winded reply and best of luck in your search.

[Mike Kees]

Excellent first post frank. Thanks for joining us here at SMC.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hello Ryan, I have been following your threads with interest. I too was in the market for a slider recently. A bit of history first. I was a professional cabinetmaker and then Furnituremaker for 26 years. I changed careers 20 years ago and am now approaching retirement and working on setting up a shop again. I have owned 2 short stroke sliders in the past a Griggio and then an EMA KS 1600. My current 864 sq ft garage shop does not have 3 phase power so I stated looking to see if I could find a good accurate slider with a single phase motor. My budget was $6-$10k. The Laguna 12/5 peaked my interest but after 2 emails and 2 phone calls to customer service with no reply I gave up on Laguna. I was trying to find out if the saw is Dado capable which is essential for me. I then started looking at Minimax, Felder / Hammer and Altendorf. The Hammer K3 Winner started to look interesting at around $6k. I was also getting info on the Altendorf WA6 which I later found out is not Dado capable so that pursuit ended. If running a dado or groover is not import to you they might be a good choice. Cantek and Maksiwa both make what looks like good sliders but I could not find anything good or bad from owners/ users online. Felder and Minimax both have online Groups.io chats which I find a big plus for those brands. I have a woodworker friend that recently upgraded to a Minimax SC 3C. It is a very nice machine that my friend is very happy with. He bought it from Elite Metal Tools which took his old slider in trade. He is very happy with his experience with Elite. The SC 3C is quite a bit lighter than the Italian saws I had used before. I think the Hammer and Minimax lines are probably quite similar. I was having good correspondence with Elite and I like that they publish prices are on their website. I found out about Sam Blasco and had correspondence with him regarding Minimax machines. If you are shopping Minimax I highly recommend talking to Sam. Having a knowledgeable person to talk to makes it much more comfortable dropping thousands and thousands of dollars on something never seen or touched. Speaking with Sam gave me the confidence to purchase a Minimax FS30cx jointer /planer. During my research the Minimax SC 3C and SC 2C saws did not quite answer my wants needs. Minimax does make and sell a lot of equipment for good reason and maybe one of these saws could answer your needs. They have a variety of models and price points for most peoples needs and have dealers all over the country. My journey began to take me back me to Felder/ Hammer. They are offered in a number of variations and quite a number of accessories are also available. I was talking to Elizabeth Rogers at Felder Sacramento. (1 866-792-5288 ext. 209) and I cannot say enough good things about her. She is extremely knowledgeable about the whole Felder/ Hammer line and all the variations. Emails and phone messages are answered either immediately or within a couple hours. Talking on the phone with her she is quick to point out the positives but also tell you if something about a machine may not meet one’s high expectations. She put me in touch with a woodworker about 40 miles from me that has a number of Felder machines. I did visit this guy and got to lay my hands on a Felder slider and was happy with what I saw and the owner had nothing but good things to say about his equipment. He also dealt with Elizabeth and raved about her like I am now. I learned of Erik Loza on this forum (but have not spoken to him yet) which may be another source of info on the Felder products. After a lot of analysis, I ended up ordering a Felder K500P. This saw is a $2k step up in price over the Hammer K3 Winner and uses the X Roll sliding table common to all the upper end Felder saws. Felder has been making the X Roll system since the mid 70’s and having a 10 year warranty on the slider is unprecedented. One downside to the particular saw I ordered is that it is not a model that is imported for dealer inventory. To the best of my knowledge the Hammer saws and the K700’s are imported for stock in the US. The 500 series Felders are kind of tweeners, in between the $6-$7k Hammer line and the $12-$35k Felder and $+$+ Format lines. The K500P is custom made to order, being such, I will not see my saw till later in the year. For me a well made and finely tuned short stroke slider is a real joy to use. Yes all good sliders can be very good for dimensioning solid wood and panels. For me a slider has always been a fantastic joinery tool. Jigs and fixtures to cut finger joints, tenons, miters with and without splines, cuts on curved and compound curved parts…. the list goes on. If you can figure a way to hold a part (of any shape) on the slider, presenting that part to the sawblade, dado or groover makes for a very versatile tool and can bring great results to your projects. I think a good quality accurate slider would bring a great level of precision and open many new possibilities to your speaker cabinet and furniture projects. Apologies for the long-winded reply and best of luck in your search.

Frank Thanks very much for the great post. This is the exact type of info I have been searching for in people's experiences. I have another post up about buying a slider and all of the machines you mentioned are in that as well. I started this particular post in regard to some of the other imports just to narrow down some material.

I too think that the Maksiwa stuff looks very promising, but cannot find much usable info. I am going to contact a dealer and see if they can possibly steer me to a user or machine I can actually see before writing them off. Particularly interested in their Titanium model as at $9500 it seems like a well built machine that actually has DROs on it and that is several $k less than the other guys for that.

The Laguna stuff also seems to present a nice amount of options on what seems like a good machine but their price point is such that it makes it hard to choose them over the Felder/SCM lines....

SCM I can at least find pricing as you mentioned and I'm glad to hear your experience with Elite...I might reach out to them to get a dialog going as well as Sam, I've heard he is a great resource.

Hammer/Felder is still where my "new" inclination heads but I know I'm going to pay for it, and my experience in getting pricing and info has been difficult and this would be my 3rd purchase from them. I might try the rep you mentioned. My previous rep is no longer with the company but was fantastic to deal with. I'm very curious to know (if you would like to disclose or could shoot me a pm) what ended up being your price for the 500p you ordered and how did you get it outfitted? I'm not looking to price shop with them but just really want to get an idea what an equipped machine comes out as. I've heard numbers all over the place from folks and reps and likewise can't narrow in on it. From Felder Group, I've been considering a host of machines really...but it all depends on what price makes the most sense. And out of curiosity what made you go for the P vs the S or 540S??

As for the Altendorf WA-6, Dado's are not a big deal for me (at least not right now) so it is definitely in consideration. My first BIG question is do you know if this machine is available in the US???? Because I can't find anywhere that actually seems to suggest so.... 2nd their machine is made in China, and I'm curious if anyone knows which factory is doing it because it would seem there are quite a few of the Chinese import brands that I using the name Altendorf in their descriptions and they look virtually identical to the machine pics....in other words they might be the exact same machine without the branding and at a fraction of the price. This may completely not be the case, but it strikes me as a possibility as it is common practice in China and apparently very easy for them to get away with. Thoughts????

Thanks again for the great info!

[Mark e Kessler]

The factory building the wa’s is Altendorfs which is why I said I would possibly consider them. I will tell you the company I work at has 2 factories in China that were setup by us and run by us and we have customers in China that actually insist on buying the product from The factory in Vermont and shipped to China instead of the same thing they can get in China. I can also tell you that we now only have our simplest configurations made there for a reason…

btw, the wa’s are out of your price range new so scratch it off your list.

[Malcolm McLeod]

As for the Altendorf WA-6, …

I have talked to 2 different Stiles Reps now. They certainly seem to sell Altendorf in the USA, and in fact they seem to be the only rep for Altendorf that I can find in USA. ...But something is not right, IMHO. Both Reps immediately pushed me toward the Ironwood line of saws that they referenced as ‘theirs’. Ironwood prices seem every bit the equal Felder, and almost to Martin. I explained I knew nothing about the Ironwoods, nor could I find any credible reviews of them, so I would like pricing on the WA series - - which IS boldly shown on Stiles’ website. Last response was that they would ‘have to see if they could quote that’. They would also pull together info/quote on comparable Ironwood. That was 5 days ago, and radio silence since.

No clue if this is supply chain issue (none to sell = rep apathy), market exclusion (no WAs allowed in US), or simple profit motive (>$ on Ironwood)? Whatever the cause, it looks more and more like there is no German saw in my future. (I ruled out Felder/Hammer on trusted advice, not price or sales effort.)

[Mark e Kessler]

Ironwood is made in Taiwan. Stiles is iffy, and I think they are trying to capture more of the hobby small shop market so why not create your “own” brand that can set you apart from all the other clones of a clone of another clone. They were always for big customers in the past and they control a lot of the parts and service thats how they make more money but it’s been awhile since i heard anything.

I think Iread somewhere in the past few years that Altendorf pulled there agreement with Stiles to go in house sales but could be wrong. I also think they were the sole source for them for a long time.

I submitted a direct request to Altendorf and within a day they called me from there NA hq in NC, from there they hooked me up with a NE dealer who quickly gave me a quote. I looked for it but can’t find it, I remember thinking this is a lot for a Chinese slider and it ain’t no f45.

Felder and SCM are a much better value for the money than an WA series. If you are gona buy an Asian saw it might as well be a grizzly - I here they have a great parts dept…

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Ironwood is made in Taiwan. Stiles is iffy, and I think they are trying to capture more of the hobby small shop market so why not create your “own” brand that can set you apart from all the other clones of a clone of another clone. They were always for big customers in the past and they control a lot of the parts and service thats how they make more money but it’s been awhile since i heard anything.

I think Iread somewhere in the past few years that Altendorf pulled there agreement with Stiles to go in house sales but could be wrong. I also think they were the sole source for them for a long time.

I submitted a direct request to Altendorf and within a day they called me from there NA hq in NC, from there they hooked me up with a NE dealer who quickly gave me a quote. I looked for it but can’t find it, I remember thinking this is a lot for a Chinese slider and it ain’t no f45.

Felder and SCM are a much better value for the money than an WA series. If you are gona buy an Asian saw it might as well be a grizzly - I here they have a great parts dept…

Mark, can I ask why you think the other brands are better value than the WA??? Just curious....is it purely because of where they're being made? This is where I have a very mixed opinion, and having some minor experience with a couple of companies who outsource to Asia...let me explain....

Yes, there is of course the reputation that the Euro and US made machinery is made better....can be for any number of reasons, materials, labor, and standards all among them. However, the labor and material costs are also significantly higher for those countries which is why we see higher prices on those products, but the question becomes are they proportionately higher. Asian manufactures have come a long way over the last few decades. We used to think of Taiwan and China as making inferior products, but now virtually everything is made in China and some of the very high end products we use and respect too.....Apple is foremost....most people don't even think about where it is made, but it is Chinese and they have mastered it. A certain large musical instrument company that I am friends with and colleague with has both US and overseas lines. When talking to the owner about the Korean line they offer we discussed that these instruments are virtually the same quality as their US offerings why would customers by the US ones it comes down to small things like different options available...cache factor...resell factor...and to a much lower extent actual workmanship details which are incredibly minor. The fact is they invested a lot of time and $ to make sure the over seas factory was working to the same standards they would here and they turn out great stuff....but they sell it for 1/4 of the US price.

So how does this tie in to Sliders?? Well, I have no doubt that the Chinese companies will probably use lighter steel and might miss some small details over their counterparts but if they are labeled companies, like Altendorf, they MIGHT have put in the same level of work and detail that my music colleague, put into their work and they MIGHT be producing an extremely good machine but able to see it at a lower price point....and here is where the kicker is....let's say we have a xyz slider from Germany that has cost of goods sold at $6500 and they retail that machine at 20k but in China they might have nearly identical machine with cost of goods sold at 1500 and sell it for 10k....you're then effectively getting a machine worth twice as much....at least in function...value is a different story. The parent still wants to sell the Euro version if they have a choice because it makes more profit, but the import allows them to hit another market that they actually can't do in Europe. You probably see my point. The challenge for us though is to figure out which machines are built to those standards and which aren't. And then there's the no name ones that are out there that seem to be the same. Chinese manufacturing has become great at copying products and likewise they might be cheap knock offs or they might be the same machine they're making for another brand if they aren't an exclusive factory...or they're the same quality machine but brought primarily to other lower GDP economies as again another attempt at market development.

It's far too complicated without having inside knowledge to figure out, and for those who can afford the products easily, it's not of concern...but for those more budget conscious it becomes a dilemma!

Anyway, I digress :cool:

[Erik Loza]

Kurt, you seem fixated on coming back to these various Chinese machines. Certainly your wallet/your decision but since you have been all over the board, why not put the brakes on this project for the moment and instead, book a ticket to the IWF show in Atlanta this August? You'll be able to lay hands on most all of these in person. In my experience, websites and e-catalogs are really great at making a cheap machine look just as nice as a truly industrial machine but that all goes away when you can actually see them side-by-side. I can tell you that those examples you mentioned do not apply to industrial sliding panel saws but then again, the first time many customers see their new machine is when it arrives on the truck. So, most folks simply don't have a frame of reference. I think you really need to see some of these machines in person and am confident that once you do, the differences will be obvious. Hope this makes sense.

Erik

[Mike Kees]

Kurt this is a big decision and at the end of the day it is your money and you get to live with the consequences of what you choose. That said there is a lot of very solid advice in this thread. Two things jump out for me. Unanimous respect for SCM and Felder products. Very little or no feedback on most Asian machines . I think you should consider that for a minute. Eric Loza's last post is the best one so far , go to one of the two huge shows and check them out. Lastly (as was mentioned by another poster) I would strongly consider Grizzly if you are steered by budget and need to buy new only. They have parts and support that other Asian machines may not have to the same level. Hope this helps and best of luck in your search and decision.

[Mark e Kessler]

Mark, can I ask why you think the other brands are better value than the WA??? Just curious....is it purely because of where they're being made? This is where I have a very mixed opinion, and having some minor experience with a couple of companies who outsource to Asia...let me explain....


I can only give you the wisdom I have learned over the 30 some odd years of WW, from starting out with nothing at 19 in work/live loft in the hood where customers would not even visit and growing that business to a 1m+ business then closing it all down after relizing I wasn’t doing what i loved.

If I could do it over again starting out I would buy a used higher end scm (whatever your budget is) or other euro brand with DRO, DRO was not common place at the time for me but now it is. I would want DRO on rip min and preferably on xcut and digital readout for height and angle. You are going to be in business and this will without a doubt be more efficient, if you were on IG and followed me I just did a post on this and how valuable it is - even a Felder family member “liked” it so you know it’s gota be good :cool:

When buying this used Euro slider it would be best to hook up with a local industrial supplier, you want support and solid advice if you can get it. Looks like you are in New England, there are LOTS of equipment dealers within strike distance, I don’t know exactly where you are but Boshco is in Mass, family owned, ligit folks that are trustworthy - you tell them what you are looking for and they will be on the lookout. I just bought a widebelt from them and come to find that I actually bought a large dust collector from them 25 yrs ago when my shop was in Southern Ohio.

And if you really must not follow the advice that this thread has continually advised on doing from the many experienced folks then I found a short stroke Laguna for you in your neck of the woods https://www.brianstoolsales.com/used-tools while you are at it pick up that parks planer, they can be really sweet if tuned properly, but keep your hands off the general mortiser…

Additionally Erik gives solid advice, a trade show will open your eyes…

Now go find a used equipment dealer because know one here is helping you get to your end goal…

[Frank Nadell]

Hello again Kurt, I’ll start with the Altendorf WA-6. I have been talking to Ron Johnson at Advanced Machinery in Utah. (810-231-4462) I found out that they are not bringing the WA-6 into the US with single phase motors, only 3ph. It is some issue with finding UL rated motors for the US market. Ron did say the WA-6 is made in an Altendorf factory in China. I never did get a price from Ron due to it not totally meeting my needs.
As to my Felder K500P choice: A short stroker is what I prefer and what I am used to even when I had a large shop and 3 phase. So that put me in the 500P and not the longer slider models. I do/ did use plenty of sheet goods but the majority of my work is in hardwoods. To each their own but for me it is more pleasurable driving the little sports car slider vs the big pick up truck slider. Also a short stroke offers considerable $$ savings over a long stroke. If Felder or Hammer looks interesting to you give Elizabeth Rogers or Erik Loza a call.

[Frank Nadell]

Hello again Kurt, I’ll start with the Altendorf WA-6. I have been talking to Ron Johnson at Advanced Machinery in Utah. (810-231-4462) I found out that they are not bringing the WA-6 into the US with single phase motors, only 3ph. It is some issue with finding UL rated motors for the US market. Ron did say the WA-6 is made in an Altendorf factory in China. I never did get a price from Ron due to it not totally meeting my needs.
As to my Felder K500P choice: A short stroke is what I prefer and what I am used to even when I had a large shop and 3 phase. So that put me in the 500P and not the longer slider models. I do/ did use plenty of sheet goods but the majority of my work is in hardwoods. To each their own but for me it is more pleasurable driving the little sports car slider vs the big pick up truck slider. Also a short stroke offers considerable $$ savings over a long stroke.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt, you seem fixated on coming back to these various Chinese machines. Certainly your wallet/your decision but since you have been all over the board, why not put the brakes on this project for the moment and instead, book a ticket to the IWF show in Atlanta this August? You'll be able to lay hands on most all of these in person. In my experience, websites and e-catalogs are really great at making a cheap machine look just as nice as a truly industrial machine but that all goes away when you can actually see them side-by-side. I can tell you that those examples you mentioned do not apply to industrial sliding panel saws but then again, the first time many customers see their new machine is when it arrives on the truck. So, most folks simply don't have a frame of reference. I think you really need to see some of these machines in person and am confident that once you do, the differences will be obvious. Hope this makes sense.

Erik

Fixated isn't the right word, intrigued yes and having a tighter budget than I'd like makes the idea appealing, but not willing to throw cash at it blindly which is why I'm searching for any with experience.

As much as I'd like to go to the show, not doing any traveling right now, even for my own industry trades. But hopefully that can change in the future sooner rather than later.

I haven't had my hands on any of the imports and that's where the problem is....I've played with an F45, and a K700s, and an old Holz Her a bit. They all have their own positives and negatives, but I don't know what I'm comparing them against. As for your line I have a Hammer A341 and have played with several bigger $ jointer planers and tell you the truth, if not abused I can't see why it won't hold up every bit as well. It's the internals, motors, electronics, etc that I can't speak for and likewise am more concerned about....that and of course how accurate the machine is made.

I do totally agree though about the availability of parts and service for said machines because that can be an issue. Though again if taken care of it might minimize it but something might very well happen. I mean look, I've used my JET cabinet saw for nearly 20 years and I am finally having to take care of something on it. I guess the issue in my head is that if I can get 20 years and probably 20 more out of this JET that was like 3k new (maybe less I can't remember) why should I expect a 10k saw to break down? Has quality gone down that much? It's just a mechanical slide, why should it really breakdown (especially in a one (maybe two) man shop? Maybe it's unrealistic for some reason to expect...so I'm just searching for experience of others to help with that process, but guys, please remember pro, but 1 or 2 man shop not an industrial setting.

BTW---waiting for weeks now for pricing from my rep from Felder....really isn't acceptable. Not aimed at you, you seem really responsive and caring about your customers but hopefully feedback you can share inside to make it better.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt this is a big decision and at the end of the day it is your money and you get to live with the consequences of what you choose. That said there is a lot of very solid advice in this thread. Two things jump out for me. Unanimous respect for SCM and Felder products. Very little or no feedback on most Asian machines . I think you should consider that for a minute. Eric Loza's last post is the best one so far , go to one of the two huge shows and check them out. Lastly (as was mentioned by another poster) I would strongly consider Grizzly if you are steered by budget and need to buy new only. They have parts and support that other Asian machines may not have to the same level. Hope this helps and best of luck in your search and decision.

Hey Mike, thanks, you know I sort of wrote Grizzly off for some reason....I think from their earlier days rep I never got a good taste for them, but I totally believe in giving things another shot, but it seems like the only single phase machine they have is their 623 short stroke....which at 5k is probably worth consideration if I should go the short route.

Everyone is trying to convince me to get a convertor and go 3 phase. I realize it opens a lot of doors but it's another good sized chunk of cash that just buys me a power supply for 1 machine. I mean, the likelihood that I will add another 3 ph machine in this shop is very low....off chance down the road of a CNC or Wide Belt that's it, and if I am at that point I'll probably go to another shop....so I kind of feel like the 1500+ that I pay for that is money taken away from the saw budget. Just thinking out loud. Thanks.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I can only give you the wisdom I have learned over the 30 some odd years of WW, from starting out with nothing at 19 in work/live loft in the hood where customers would not even visit and growing that business to a 1m+ business then closing it all down after relizing I wasn’t doing what i loved.

If I could do it over again starting out I would buy a used higher end scm (whatever your budget is) or other euro brand with DRO, DRO was not common place at the time for me but now it is. I would want DRO on rip min and preferably on xcut and digital readout for height and angle. You are going to be in business and this will without a doubt be more efficient, if you were on IG and followed me I just did a post on this and how valuable it is - even a Felder family member “liked” it so you know it’s gota be good :cool:

When buying this used Euro slider it would be best to hook up with a local industrial supplier, you want support and solid advice if you can get it. Looks like you are in New England, there are LOTS of equipment dealers within strike distance, I don’t know exactly where you are but Boshco is in Mass, family owned, ligit folks that are trustworthy - you tell them what you are looking for and they will be on the lookout. I just bought a widebelt from them and come to find that I actually bought a large dust collector from them 25 yrs ago when my shop was in Southern Ohio.

And if you really must not follow the advice that this thread has continually advised on doing from the many experienced folks then I found a short stroke Laguna for you in your neck of the woods https://www.brianstoolsales.com/used-tools while you are at it pick up that parks planer, they can be really sweet if tuned properly, but keep your hands off the general mortiser…

Additionally Erik gives solid advice, a trade show will open your eyes…

Now go find a used equipment dealer because know one here is helping you get to your end goal…

Thanks Mark, I will definitely check out Boshco...appreciate it. I actually have seen Brian's a few times, but missed that Laguna. You know it's a very intriguing machine especially at the price. I've heard that generation was actually built really well any thoughts? The downside is it is a very short stroke I think only 50" so I couldn't even run my baltic sheets on there...I have to check into that spec further though. That said, it might be a great machine to pick up as am introductory slider. I might even be able to adapt my INCRA to it and who knows maybe trade my JET....but is it worth the move....have to think.

On a different note, I'd be very curious to hear more about your business experience and growth. I've been at this for nearly 20 years, but in a very niche industry and growth, while it's happened, has been very slow....want to grow it more as well as expand my offerings. Let me know if you'd be willing to chat. Thanks again!

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hello again Kurt, I’ll start with the Altendorf WA-6. I have been talking to Ron Johnson at Advanced Machinery in Utah. (810-231-4462) I found out that they are not bringing the WA-6 into the US with single phase motors, only 3ph. It is some issue with finding UL rated motors for the US market. Ron did say the WA-6 is made in an Altendorf factory in China. I never did get a price from Ron due to it not totally meeting my needs.
As to my Felder K500P choice: A short stroker is what I prefer and what I am used to even when I had a large shop and 3 phase. So that put me in the 500P and not the longer slider models. I do/ did use plenty of sheet goods but the majority of my work is in hardwoods. To each their own but for me it is more pleasurable driving the little sports car slider vs the big pick up truck slider. Also a short stroke offers considerable $$ savings over a long stroke. If Felder or Hammer looks interesting to you give Elizabeth Rogers or Erik Loza a call.

Thanks for the info Frank! That sounds like the WA-6 then comes off my list. I don't see myself shelling out for 3 ph for a Chinese machine that is probably lower quality that the euro competitors.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt, you seem fixated on coming back to these various Chinese machines. Certainly your wallet/your decision but since you have been all over the board, why not put the brakes on this project for the moment and instead, book a ticket to the IWF show in Atlanta this August? You'll be able to lay hands on most all of these in person. In my experience, websites and e-catalogs are really great at making a cheap machine look just as nice as a truly industrial machine but that all goes away when you can actually see them side-by-side. I can tell you that those examples you mentioned do not apply to industrial sliding panel saws but then again, the first time many customers see their new machine is when it arrives on the truck. So, most folks simply don't have a frame of reference. I think you really need to see some of these machines in person and am confident that once you do, the differences will be obvious. Hope this makes sense.

Erik

Hey Erik, tried to send you a PM but it doesn't show in my sent folder....first time I'm trying so please let me know if you got it. Thanks.

[Mike Kees]

Curt I also am currently a one man cabinet shop . I purchased my Felder k700s used (Built one kitchen and two bars) as well a a Felder edgebander from a guy two Province's away from me. It was 1100 km's one way, so yeah a little road trip. I talked a very good friend into coming with me, hooked up my flat deck trailer and away we went. I saved a lot of money doing this. As to the three phase converter, I purchased one of those used too. I went for a rotary phase converter that is rated to handle a 10hp motor on startup and up to 30 hp total. These are like 2500 ish new. In my shop I got a used three phase panel and wire from it to my machines. I currently have a bandsaw, jointer, planer , Shaper and mortiser that are three phase. It costs money for the ability to use three phase machines but opens far more doors with the industrial level machinery available. This machinery is quite often cheap to purchase used as well.

[Erik Loza]

Hey Erik, tried to send you a PM but it doesn't show in my sent folder....first time I'm trying so please let me know if you got it. Thanks.

Kurt, I replied to your PM.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Kurt, I think you're finding that there's not much actual experience here with those alternative brands. I've been in this community for a very long time and the mentions of the same are almost nil. There are a preponderance if folks with Hammer/Felder and SCM/Minimax experience and some with Martin (mostly pre-owned). A very few Altendorff machines over time, but typically older. Erik's recommendation to "do a show" is sound since it's about the only way to actually see and touch most machines of this ilk, but I can appreciate if that's not possible.

[Kevin Jenness]

One thing you might do is call around to cabinet and millwork shops in your area and ask what saw they have, their take on it, and if they would allow you to take a look at it in action.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

One thing you might do is call around to cabinet and millwork shops in your area and ask what saw they have, their take on it, and if they would allow you to take a look at it in action.

Definitely a possibility, and that's how I got my hands on checking out an old Holz Her and an automated F45.