Leaf table on a 4 ft wide table w/ grain running lengthwise

[andrew whicker]

Still doing my research, but I'm having a hard time wrapping around solutions for allowing grain movement. I have some ideas... keep one side fixed (sliding dovetail, etc) and use slotted holes btwn the frame and top on the other side.. with bolts / screws going into a male that slides?

I'll keep looking...

How has this been solved? Trying not to re-invent the wheel.

Cheers,

[Kevin Jenness]

Yes, you'd have to do something like that, but the sliding elements may tend to bind. There's a reason solid wood extension tables are typically made with the long grain oriented across the table width. If the grain needs to run lengthwise you may want to consider veneered construction.

[andrew whicker]

Thanks

I was coming to the same conclusion.. table extenders or nothing.

I don't think the customer would be willing to pay for the amount of planning and work it would take to make this happen. I also don't feel comfortable taking that level of money required and then having the table that still binds.

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks

I was coming to the same conclusion.. table extenders or nothing.

I don't think the customer would be willing to pay for the amount of planning and work it would take to make this happen. I also don't feel comfortable taking that level of money required and then having the table that still binds.

What do you mean by "table extenders or nothing"?

It sounds like your client wants an extension table with a certain look, maybe you said you could do it within their budget, now you have researched it and decided it's more complicated and more expensive than you thought. It's time to negotiate. There's only one way to find out if they'll pay for veneered panels or if they'll accept different grain orientation - talk to them. Or figure out a way to make the original idea work. Maybe someone else here has done it successfully.

I always go back to Joyce's Encyclopedia of Furniture Making when I have a question like yours. If the answer isn't in there (which it isn't) it's time to get creative.

Relating to your other post about a process for selling custom work, I suggest you get hold of a copy of Cabinetmaking the professional approach by Alan Peters (who updated Joyce's tome). He was a successful and highly respected British furnituremaker with a straightforward approach to the issues of custom work. The book's out of print but can be found used.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Andrew,

We must be on the same wavelength today. I have an upcoming commission for a dining set (expanding table + chairs) and am dealing with this same thing and I think I may be close to a solution.

Table is 60” L x 40” wide (closed) and opening up to 100” in the expanded / open configuration with, at this point, a single 40” x 40” butterfly type leaf the folds into the table when not in use.

I became aware of and have been talking to Poettker USA, initially about their table slides and then later about the folding kits, and what they call V stabilizers. Link below - they are essentially recessed steel (aluminum?) battens that allow for seasonal movement but claim to hold the top flat across the width, though I have never used metal for this in the past. It may be the ticket for this particular application, though.

https://www.poettker.com/en/products/equipment/equipment-details/v-leiste-fuer-massivholzplatten.html

These go across the grain in routed dados on the underside to help hold a top flat, and in this case can also mount directly to the metal table slides themselves. This “de-couples” the table top which needs to expand / contract from the fairly static metal undermount slides, which do not appear to have provisions for slotted expansion holes in the width direction. My understanding is that the stabilizer bars allow for float/expansion with how they mount in the recess.

My project is also one where both I and the client strongly prefer grain running longways down the length of the table and I will try and make some efforts to grain match best I can both the 2 sliding tops where they come together at the seam when closed as well as the additional leaf and where those 2 seams will be on the top when open/expanded.

Kind of a lot going on with the engineering and design with a table like this...as I have yet to do an expanding table and am having to visualize and sometime draw out full scale how certain sections move and interact with others to even figure out where to start.

I can strongly recommend the Joyce/Peters book that Kevin mentioned above. He recommended it to me in another thread some time back and it has come in handy several times in a short time. I found a decent used copy for under $20 online.

[andrew whicker]

I don't think the client knows what they want and I haven't given a price..

I haven't said anything to them precise enough for them to be expecting anything.

I'll check out the book.

[andrew whicker]

Awesome. I'm just about to give a range. I do suppose that really strong slides on a half metal frame could work..

So you are grain matching when it is full length and letting the grain show big difference when it is short?

[andrew whicker]

....

Table is 60” L x 40” wide (closed) and opening up to 100” in the expanded / open configuration with, at this point, a single 40” x 40” butterfly type leaf the folds into the table when not in use.

I became aware of and have been talking to Poettker USA, initially about their table slides and then later about the folding kits, and what they call V stabilizers. Link below - they are essentially recessed steel (aluminum?) battens that allow for seasonal movement but claim to hold the top flat across the width, though I have never used metal for this in the past. It may be the ticket for this particular application, though.

https://www.poettker.com/en/products/equipment/equipment-details/v-leiste-fuer-massivholzplatten.html

These go across the grain in routed dados on the underside to help hold a top flat, and in this case can also mount directly to the metal table slides themselves. This “de-couples” the table top which needs to expand / contract from the fairly static metal undermount slides, which do not appear to have provisions for slotted expansion holes in the width direction. My understanding is that the stabilizer bars allow for float/expansion with how they mount in the recess.

...

When the butterfly opens up and is going to fit between the two table pieces.. we have to assume the two butterfly pieces grew at the same rate and direction of the two table pieces, correct? Otherwise, the alignment dowels will not fit up correctly. If one used dominos w/ large females vs the male, this slight mis-alignment could be solved. I suppose one doesn't need a tight dowel fit as a locating pin.



Hmm... Thanks for the link. I'm still digesting this. Thanks for the reply! Good to hear from someone with similar problems.

It's not a bad idea... basically you are making the width wise aprons capable of taking wood growth, but with recessed slotted metal vs a solution with wood. I was starting to think of a wood apron solution (sliding two piece), but thought it sounded too complicated and over the top.. possibly resulting in potential binding.

[Phillip Mitchell]

When the butterfly opens up and is going to fit between the two table pieces.. we have to assume the two butterfly pieces grew at the same rate and direction of the two table pieces, correct? Otherwise, the alignment dowels will not fit up correctly. If one used dominos w/ large females vs the male, this slight mis-alignment could be solved. I suppose one doesn't need a tight dowel fit as a locating pin.



Hmm... Thanks for the link. I'm still digesting this. Thanks for the reply! Good to hear from someone with similar problems.

It's not a bad idea... basically you are making the width wise aprons capable of taking wood growth, but with recessed slotted metal vs a solution with wood. I was starting to think of a wood apron solution (sliding two piece), but thought it sounded too complicated and over the top.. possibly resulting in potential binding.

The way I have it figured (in my head, anyway) is to make the top starting with full length boards (100” + in my case) and cut them to appropriate length (for end section or leaf section or whatever) but keep that orientation and grain running continuously through milling and edge glue up so that when the entire length of the table is extended then it looks like continuous boards down the length (which is will be, just cut to length at the appropriate lengths per section of top.) Same as you might do for grain matched drawer fronts running across the face of a cabinet, dresser, whatever. That way the expansion and contraction will be similar from each section of top to the next. I will have to take a look at the tolerances in the table pins. It needs to be tighter in the vertical dimension to prevent the seams from having lips from one section to the next. This seems less critical width wise, though that is still a challenge in this situation across a 40” + wide solid wood top...

What this looks like when the table is not extended will just depend on the specific boards I choose for this and how much the grain runs out, changes over that center leaf section. I may change my approach but that’s my plan for now.