Buying a Slider....opinions/help

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hi all....I know this question has been asked many times from folks like me trying to buy a slider and looking for help to choose. I'm really looking for opinions from folks who have had real working experience or at least there hands on any of the machines mentioned and can offer their experience and the recent not old models (hence why the new post). I've looked around and read every website so I'm pretty familiar with the specs and the like. In addition to the models mentioned below I'd be more than happy to hear about any others I may not be familiar with and why. I've presented the list I have in question in 2 categories 8.5ft or longer and Short Stroke. I want to stay under 10k and I don't have an issue with a used machine, but my concern is that I am not very familiar with the units and likewise might end up spending more getting them up and running that they're worth, not to mention cannot afford the down time. In terms of used, I would really not want something prior to 2010 and likewise it seems most folks do around a 20 year cycle before changing unless it's a shop move etc. or have problems. I am also looking for a single phase machine, which I know limits some options (especially used) but I don't really want to go through getting 3 phase and a convertor will up my costs quite a bit. The one thing I find generally extremely frustrating is that many of these companies don't make it easy to find out pricing and likewise no one seems to talk about it online either.

Before I present the list, I'll mention a bit about my situation and use....thanks in advance!!

About Me

So I am a one man shop doing this for a living (at least a good part of it) for almost 20 years. I build primarily high end guitar and bass speaker cabinets mostly from hardwoods, but I do venture into furniture and other sorts of products and projects as well. Typically I am not building large case goods, however a good amount of my cabinet work comes in the form of builds for other companies and there's are almost always made from Baltic Birch Ply. So while occasionally I cut 4x8 sheets for certain projects the BB is typically 5x5 at most and I usually have 1 cut done at the mill to get it in the vehicle. So on the surface a short stroke slider is probably all I really need, but I like the idea of an 8.5 footer so that the capability is there whenever I need it. The downside is of course the price tag that is typically associated with the length. I do often buy 10ft lengths of hardwood but rarely ever need them that long and typically break them down to shorter boards on my RA saw and then do my ripping.

Shop

I am in a 2 level oversized 3 car with about 900 sqft on the first level and 300 on the top. I have been using a 3hp Jet cabinet saw with INCRA fence and Jessem router table built in for almost 20 years and am finally having an issue (another post regarding bearings) I feel that this is the perfect time to make the leap into something bigger and better and likewise slider is where I'm going. I like the Sawstop saws as cabinet saws but fully appreciate the sliders capabilities and likewise have removed it from consideration. Other machines in the shop....Hammer A341 JP, Jet 18" bandsaw, CP Radial Arm Saw, Laguna Mortiser, PC Omnijig, Drill Press etc. and just ordered a Hammer HS950 edge sander. I have the room to fit a 10ft slider, but only want to consider one that size if the value really makes sense...otherwise I would prefer an 8.5 or Short Stroke.

Brands

As you can see I have a Hammer and adding another one....overall I've been very happy with my machine, but I am not married to the brand at all at this point. I've managed to get good deals on the machines from them so far which has been the biggest deciding factor to getting them. There service has been 50-50 for me. Overall I think that most of this level machinery is priced too high, but these companies have figured out how to ride the coat tails of the their industrial level machines and have basically eliminated any sort of middle ground pricing for those trying to put good equipment in a one or two man shop or hobbyist and have made a considerable jump considering you can get a quality cabinet saw for around 3k compared to at least double to start this conversation.

Many of you will say go with the company that has the closest support and the best service. While I appreciate all of that I am in CT and as far as I know I don't have service from any of these companies particularly close (or at least not that I am aware of). Instead I want the most reliable machine that offers me the most machine for the money. I am not really interested in combo machines. If the need arises for a shaper in the future I'll probably just go with a stand alone.

The only machines I have ever had my hands on are....

Felder K700S with some options
Old Holz Her
Altendorf f45 - automated fence etc.

I actually like the feel of the Felder the most even though the AD is a much more expensive machine. It also felt great and felt extremely solid....the automation was of course cool but I actually feel like that level would slow me down. A digital readout with micro adjust would be every bit as good for me. Not to mention the f45 is in a totally different price category.

Wishlist

Good warranty (that's easy to deal with)
Digital readouts for fence and tilt (fine with an aftermarket for the fence readout....I'm just used to being able to dial in with the INCRA and it's going to be hard to lose that, my pieces need to be the same every time)
Really good overarm dust guard
Power switches on grip (I know typically only on higher priced)
Micro-adjust a must
Scoring unit
Really don't want less that 5HP

What I'm considering.....

Short Stroke

Hammer K3 Winner Comfort - Don't have a price yet, but feel like it's going to be high enough to not make sense

SCM - SC2C - Seems like good value, don't like the guard (don't know if better is optional)

Laguna - P12/5 - Seems loaded, but not cheap for it's size

Casadei - SC20 - Think I read that this is the same as the SCM, looks it, don't know the pricing compared to SCM thoughts????

8.5 or Bigger

Hammer K4 Perform - can't get firm pricing yet but have heard the difference to the 500 series is only about 1k which may or may not be worth it since you seem to have more options with the K4 standard and share a lot of the build but you don't have the X roll or the warranty

Felder K500 series - Like the warranty and the X roll - can't get firm pricing yet but might be more than I can do

SCM - SC3C or SC4E - Don't really know the difference - again guard not great, control layout not great

Maksiwa - BMS or BMT 3200 - full size, but seems like a lot of value - don't know the difference between the 2 models can't seem to find any except the price. 2 year warranty OK but not great. Service might be difficult in person but have read that phone support is good. Overall though very appealing.

Cantek - P305 - seems quite good but haven't heard a lot of opinions

Laguna P12/8 - would only do it on sale, above my budget

Casadei - SC30 or 40 - again don't know if there is anything different than the SCM models or the pricing

Altendorf - WA6 - can't find pricing on this but it seems like it could be under 10. I think the WA series is Chinese which raises flags for steel quality and the like, but have read a lot of good things regardless. I like the name of course, but wonder if that's all I'd be buying.

Robland - 300 series - seems like this is the only single phase they offer and it's only 3hp....anyone know if they offer bigger? Looks great, but have read mixed reviews on performance.

ASIAN - Lastly I would consider one of the import models that are priced incredibly under 3k in many cases. I have read some of the success and horror stories here, so would only go with something that someone had first hand great experience with. Any thoughts are appreciated.

OK Guys, I know it was a long read and I thank you so much for any advice and suggestions. I am sure there are a lot of other things to get into here but hopefully this gets the conversation going in the right direction as I'm sure there are a lot of you in a similar boat.

One last question, are there any relationships with any of these companies for SMC members? Any discounts? Any reps on here that can help?

Thanks!!!

[Pat Rice]

Wow Kurt, a lot of questions. Erik Loza is a Sawmill member with lots of experience and is currently a Felder Rep and in the past sold SCM. I am a hobbyist woodworker who in the last several year converted from 20 yrs of using cabinet saws with Incra fences to the slider world. I really liked using the Incra fence for it’s repeatability and precision and when I purchased my first slider a K500 Pro from Felder, I really missed my Incra fence but totally loved using the slider and crosscut fence. It is a different way of working and it took a little bit to adapt to working on a slider but I would never want to go back to a cabinet saw. Erik gave me some great advice on Hammer vs K500 in that the K500 series has the X-Roll sliding table which I think is a worth while upgrade. Having never seen a slider in person much less used one and being a little shocked at pricing I went with the K500 Pro with 80” fence and all analog fence and stops. It was a good saw but ultimately didn’t meet the my wants/needs. Specifically I quickly found out I wanted a longer slider to allow me to rip 8’ sheet goods and then there was the love of Incra fence repeatability that was missing. Long story short I decided life is too short and I am getting older so now was the time to bite the bullet and I upgraded to a much higher end Felder (Kappa 400 X-Motion) with digital cross stops and automatic rip fence with digital control panel and longer slider, this is probably my last saw and I didn’t want any regrets. I am totally pleased with this slider and it’s precision and the ease of repeatability. This machine is not in your mentioned price range and rarely available used but would be worth looking for. The K700 series also now has similar digital options. Good luck on your journey into sliders.

[Paul J Kelly]

Great post!

In regard to new Felder or Hammer. The single phase option is 3kw-4hp. Older Felder's had single phase above that 4hp mark would violate your 2010 date for used machines.

I had a short stroke Laguna TSS for 15 years. I moved to a 3200mm slider. If you can fit that, it opens up capacities to use clamps with hard wood and sheet goods. An 8.5ft slider will handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood, but there is not space left for clamping the piece while you cut. Last year I found a Format 4 kappa 400 x-motion used in a nice shop for a fraction of new. It is 10hp 3 phase, so I had another $3k for a Phase Perfect 10hp model. It is a dream machine and if you find a deal like that - do it! I fit it in a 20x20 shop!

I have nothing against the brands you are talking about. I have no experience with Maksiwa beyond the videos on YouTube. I am not sure if you can find the Altendorf WA6 easily in the US.

SCM's are great machines also. The pricing for new can be steep with SCM that have the digital functions.

If you are looking for more insight on Hammer/Felder - get on the Felders Owners Group - the FOG.

PK

[Jim Becker]

I'm a slider fan and will have one again in the new shop building once it's up...I miss it dearly. I'm in the SCM/Minimax camp (SC3C most likely), although when I buy, a Hammer will also get compared and considered. The major difference between the SC3C and the SC4C is the wagon length; the former is "medium" short stroke and the latter is 8'6" wagon and a little heavier. The next step up is the S315 which is the 10' wagon.

I think you really need to narrow down the format you want to support what you want to do with it. Short strokes are great, but if you want to work with longer things, they obviously are not going to be the best choice. There are too many on your current list....

So narrow down what your actual cutting requirements are going to be.

[Kevin Jenness]

What is your budget?

I don't have experience with the specific saws you mention but I have used sliders for over 20 years, specifically a short stroke SCM Si12, Griggio SC3000, two Martin T72s, (all from the mid-80's) a new Martin T60C and the saw I use daily, a 20 year old Paoloni P260.

I understand your desire for a new saw with warranty and single phase electrics but I can say that a well designed industrial grade saw that hasn't been abused will function reliably for a long time in a one man shop and be a better value even with a phase converter added in than a new consumer grade saw. Martins in particular are made to cut accurately and standup to continuous hard use for decades. if you look around you can find non-digital full size saws in good shape for under $10k, and any kinks will have been uncovered in use (although it would be up to you to suss them out).

I see a lot of problems with new machines and customer service posted here. If there are any problems with a new machine even if you get faulty parts replaced you will be responsible for installing them and calibrating the saw or paying a factory tech to do it for you. If you buy new, make sure you get those warranty and service terms clearly spelled out in advance.

The Paoloni is not a great saw, it's light and a little crude in spots but it is accurate and combines an 8.5' stroke and room for clamps fore and aft of an 8' sheet with a narrow extension table so it fits in the confines of my shop. I have about $4k in it including shipping and a 10 hp phase converter. I don't have a dro on the fence, just a magnetic back dial indicator, but you could easily retrofit one. Whatever you get, look closely at the overall footprint, carriage travel and table length. I find the 8.5' stroke very useful for straightlining solid wood as well as sheet goods, and more is better if you have room. Clamps, a double miter gauge and Fritz and Franz are extremely useful accessories and easily made if you are thrifty.

Good luck with whatever you get. I'm sure it will make a big difference in your work.

[Richard Coers]

With the limited amount of sheet goods you run, I would not recommend a slider. Dedicating a 17' slot in your small shop will really eat up the space. I've owned a Griggio and MiniMax combination machine.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I'll simply say, recent purchase of an SCM minimax si315es has me thoroughly impressed. Haven't touched my old Jet supersaw OR miter saw in the weeks since receiving it. Love, love, love that slider. Very little ply processing, as I've got cnc, but still, quick breakdown and trimming of plys is faster than winding up the cnc. Even better than I'd hoped.
Background: 15 year full time cab/furniture designer/builder.
Why did I choose it?
- European made
- Availability was good - only an 8 week wait - tried to stick with Felder, but they needed 8-9 months
- Salesman in my state, who connected me with Sam Blasco for questions prior to purchase, and after receiving the machine.
Looked at the 6,8 and 10' sliders in this series. Was able to fit the 10, and am super glad it worked out.
Pricing roughly a grand per foot on the slider lengths.

jeff

[Patrick Kane]

Sounds like his budget is right around $10k. First, and not to be a debbie downer, but perhaps a 4x4 CNC would be a better use of your capital? I dont know that a slider will make you better/faster at building guitars. If you still want a slider, $10k is a good budget for a used machine, and potentially insufficient for a new machine--just my opinion. For example, i probably would set the Felder 700 as my baseline machine(or the SCM equivalent). I dont follow new machine prices, but im pretty sure that a K700 is $13-15,000. I have definitely seen a handful of very new Felder 700's in the last year. Im talking like less than 6 months of use and the owner is reselling for one reason or another. That could be a great option for you. Otherwise, i would reconsider your 2010 date. Personally, i consider 2010 to be pretty recent. Heck, i was still in college in 2010.... I have a 2005 Felder KF700, and i think it would be a great ROI for you. You dont sound like you will be running this saw 6 hours a day for 5 days a week. I have a low patience threshold with machines, and i cant level many critiques at the Felder. The 5.5hp motor is adequate, the xroll table is fine, the crosscut fence and outrigger are right on the edge of being too flimsy for full sheets of 3/4, but they work fine. The rip fence is nothing to write home about, but its also not cheap. I think most professionals and craftspeople worth their salt would use my machine and come away satisfied, but not impressed by anything one feature. I might get stoned for saying this, but i would prefer the 2005 Felder to the 1970s Martin T75 i had. The Martin is so heavy and overbuilt, but it lacked the refinement and better designed sliding table/crosscut fence/outrigger of the Felder. Not that i know anything, but i do think sliders are better designed today than they were in the 70s and 80s. I tend to agree with the "older is better" sentiment, but not when it comes to sliders. I think you would be safe with anything from the late 90s or early 2000s. Altendorf, Martin, Kolle, SCM, etc all seemed to settle into hardened steel ways and bearing carriages similar to what is being used today. I believe the Felder Xroll fence from 2003-2004 is largely unchanged to this day, and the crosscut fence extrusion is similar/the same. I dont know the cost, but you can replace the steel ways and bearings on these tables and get another 50 years out of them. Ive looked at my ways on my Felder and they show 0 signs of wear. The Martin T75's cast iron ways had a 1/8"+ groove worn in them from 40-50 years of professional use. That is a design more prone to wear and extremely difficult to bring back to like-new condition, but even still the guy that bought my machine slapped an indicator with a mag base on it and the full stroke had .003-.005" of deviation. Thats a machine that is 50 years old, used in a pro setting, forklifted onto an open flatbed trailer, driven from Texas to Pennsylvania, forklifted off the trailer and up my driveway, and without any calibration. There's a lot to be said about heft and design build! Which brings me to my final long-winded point. I wouldnt buy the Hammer or k500. No offense to people that own them, i know plenty of great products come off of them, but i would take a 10 year old better built machine than a new hammer. And the 500 is the hammer in slightly better clothes. It has the xroll table and the rest is a hammer machine, i think.

[Steve Jenkins]

I’ve an Altendorf 10’ F-45 that I bought new in 1992. Still works great. Has digital readout on the manual fence and tilt. Wouldn’t want to do without either. Only thing I don’t care for is the Blade raise and lower is a hydraulic foot pedal. Its only a slight problem when trying to set a precise blade height like for dados.

[Kevin Jenness]

With the limited amount of sheet goods you run, I would not recommend a slider.

I disagree. Even using solely solid wood I would rather have a sliding table saw. Since the op often uses 5 x 5 baltic birch panels it would make sense to get a slider with at least a 5' stroke.

[Kevin Jenness]

i do think sliders are better designed today than they were in the 70s and 80s.

That depends. The old Martin T75s are tanks, but the T72s and onward from the early 80s have quite nice fences and they are almost impossible to knock out of square. The carriage, the heart of the saw, is basically the same today as it was 40 years ago and not that much different from the T75 - if kept lubricated they are quite durable. The main improvements I see on the T60C over the 40 year old T72s are dros on the rip fence and blade height, operator side adjustment and lock on the rip fence (exclusive to Martin as far as I know and a huge improvement over walking around the beam), micro adjustment on the crosscut stops and continuous position carriage locking. I actually prefer the hydraulic blade controls over electronic; they'll never crap out from a power surge.

[Jim Becker]

With the limited amount of sheet goods you run, I would not recommend a slider. Dedicating a 17' slot in your small shop will really eat up the space. I've owned a Griggio and MiniMax combination machine.
I also disagree. I work primarily with solid stock and I'm really missing not having the slider right now with my temporary shop. I've really hated going back to a cabinet saw, even temporarily.

[Rich Riddle]

I purchased the Hamme K3 Winner at least five years ago. It has a 48" or 49" slide on it and works great. It took a while to adjust after all the years with a Unisaw, but now it's like second nature. No regrets in the least.

[Steve Jenkins]

That depends. I actually prefer the hydraulic blade controls over electronic; they'll never crap out from a power surge.
I was thinking hand wheel not electronics

[Kevin Jenness]

I was thinking hand wheel not electronics

For some time Martin had a pedal operated hydraulic pump that raised, lowered and tilted the arbor. They pump had two modes, with a small step the blade would move in very small increments. For really precise angular and vertical positioning it was a little more cumbersome than a handwheel, but our saw was used almost solely for through cutting - we had a couple of cabinet saws available for grooving. The thing I liked was you could dump the blade below the table in a second or raise it into a stopped cut hands free, and like handwheels it didn't rely on a proprietary circuit board. I like dros but electronic positioners not so much.

[Richard Coers]

I also disagree. I work primarily with solid stock and I'm really missing not having the slider right now with my temporary shop. I've really hated going back to a cabinet saw, even temporarily.
I knew I would get push back and disagreement. This is a very pro slider forum. I am just going by the amount of work he does with sheet goods. I'm assuming that when someone says, "So I am a one man shop doing this for a living (at least a good part of it) for almost 20 years. I build primarily high end guitar and bass speaker cabinets mostly from hardwoods" and that "but I do venture into furniture and other sorts of products and projects as well". That boils down to how many times a month he venture. He certainly doesn't need a slider to make guitars, which is around half of his effort for 20 years. But I'm making some assumptions about his generalizations. But what do I know.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... trying to buy a slider ...

I too am looking, casually for 10-12 months, and now 3-4mo seriously. I have tried every manner of auction I can locate; even called about having one shipped from Poland*. I find 2 basic classes of used saws: 1) 'as-is, where-is', and the 'where' is a war zone, a wrecking yard, or a 3-day drive just to look (no matter how generous the terms); and, 2) it is a 50 yr old saw, listed for half or more of new. Forget about bidding against a commercial shop - who can see an ROI in their bid at least, with 25% deposit for your expected max bid, 15% buyer's premium, 8% sales tax, proof of insurance to get in the building, $1500 for the designated union rigger to move it onto your rigger's forklift to move it 8' to your vehicle at the dock, with 24 hrs to get there and clear it from the building on winning the bid. Did I mention the warranty? Q:"Does it run?" A:"It used to, sure!" (And I still don't need 15Hp to make furniture.)

So let's look at new..?? Whatever you do, don't even insinuate you are a small shop, or horrors ... a hobbyist! All you'll hear on the other end of the call is a splash as their phone is dropped down the well. You can ask 8 questions and get the answer to the 1 question that they *think* you asked. Instead, tell them you are the head of R&D for GE or Exxon, getting into the furniture biz in a big way, need a lab saw immediately, with a PO for $1.8B as soon as you OK the racing stripe paint scheme on the v-belt.

And just the tiniest bit of hyperbole here.:(

I am down to the SCM SI315, Altendorf WA 6, or the WA 8X (yeah, stretching on that last one ... w/ all the electree-o-tronical geegaws. Power seats. Infotainment. ABS. Custom casters. ...For my dad. :cool:)

Now if they'll just call me back. And I can get some of the cynicism washed off of me.

*-LOTS of good cheap sliders in Europe; just a PITA - at least for me - to get 'em here.

[Derek Cohen]

I purchased the Hamme K3 Winner at least five years ago. It has a 48" or 49" slide on it and works great. It took a while to adjust after all the years with a Unisaw, but now it's like second nature. No regrets in the least.

I have the exact same saw. It is great for my needs building furniture of solid wood. No sheet goods. I am a hobbiest. However, the K3/49" wagon would not be my choice if I used sheet goods for business. I would want what the OP wants - a longer wagon with the ability to cut 8' panels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Kane]

I too am looking, casually for 10-12 months, and now 3-4mo seriously. I have tried every manner of auction I can locate; even called about having one shipped from Poland*. I find 2 basic classes of used saws: 1) 'as-is, where-is', and the 'where' is a war zone, a wrecking yard, or a 3-day drive just to look (no matter how generous the terms); and, 2) it is a 50 yr old saw, listed for half or more of new. Forget about bidding against a commercial shop - who can see an ROI in their bid at least, with 25% deposit for your expected max bid, 15% buyer's premium, 8% sales tax, proof of insurance to get in the building, $1500 for the designated union rigger to move it onto your rigger's forklift to move it 8' to your vehicle at the dock, with 24 hrs to get there and clear it from the building on winning the bid. Did I mention the warranty? Q:"Does it run?" A:"It used to, sure!" (And I still don't need 15Hp to make furniture.)
.

This was very funny. Especially the auction bit. I have some experience purchasing things from auctions, and even more experience trying to purchase things from auctions. They arent my favorite, i would much prefer to do a direct sale with the seller. As you jokingly mention, the speed at which you need to move for an auction is stupid. Especially when you are a state away. Sure, let me win the auction at 4pm, wire you the money within an hour before the banks close, and then have 0 business hours to organize loading and transport the next day. As you mention, if you need to involve your own personal rigger, the economics of the deal are done.

I need to understand the build process of making guitars and speaker cabinets to really provide accurate advice. Like i said before, the best upgrade for this guy is probably a stout 4x4 CNC to do the guitar bodies, fret boards, and potentially assist with the speaker cabinet builds. Not to mention it can expand your offerings or assist in furniture production by making templates etc. However, i do think a sliding table saw assists in just about any woodworking operation. It makes you better and faster at any task involving a crosscut. Highly repeatable and dead accurate results coupled with a DF700 make most furniture production very very fast. Unless you are doing Maloof-esque furniture, a slider and a domino will automatically make you better, faster, more profitable at making furniture/built-ins.

Here are some used options that i, Patrick, would personally consider for myself. I dont know where you are, but i would buy these after a simple phone call with the seller sight unseen.
Martin Sliding table Saw - tools - by owner - sale (craigslist.org) (https://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/tls/d/brooklyn-martin-sliding-table-saw/7437805053.html) Cheap option to get in the game. Like i said, i dont like the outrigger and crosscut fence, but you can buy a Felder crosscut fence with stops for under a grand, which would improve this machine immensely. This has an enormous blade capacity(18-20"), and can handle large groovers.
Woodworking Tools and Materials for Sale - tools - by owner - sale (craigslist.org) (https://catskills.craigslist.org/tls/d/monticello-woodworking-tools-and/7428759258.html)
SCMI Sliding Table Saw - tools - by owner - sale (craigslist.org) (https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/tls/d/pensacola-scmi-sliding-table-saw/7438624531.html) Stretching the budget maybe, but this is a very new saw.

[Erik Loza]

To the OP: First step should be to define your budget and and what size machine you actually want. Your list ranges from Honda Civic to full-sized truck. From the supplier's standpoint, open-ended "tell me what to buy" questions are the most challenging to answer in any useful way. I hope this makes sense.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

I knew I would get push back and disagreement. This is a very pro slider forum. I am just going by the amount of work he does with sheet goods. I'm assuming that when someone says, "So I am a one man shop doing this for a living (at least a good part of it) for almost 20 years. I build primarily high end guitar and bass speaker cabinets mostly from hardwoods" and that "but I do venture into furniture and other sorts of products and projects as well". That boils down to how many times a month he venture. He certainly doesn't need a slider to make guitars, which is around half of his effort for 20 years. But I'm making some assumptions about his generalizations. But what do I know.

Just try to envision that sliders don't have to be about sheet goods. As I mentioned, I use very little sheet goods and at this point, I cut most of that on the CNC. But even before the CNC, I didn't work with much in the way of sheet goods. The slider, however, was a boon to my processing of solid stock in many ways. And my hand was rarely near the blade. Even with the SS PCS I'm using in the temporary shop, I get really itchy because I necessarily have to have my hand(s) a lot closer to the blade than I'm used to. Subjective thing, however...

[Malcolm McLeod]

Here are some used options ....

Mr. Kane, Thanks very much for the links (1 of them I had seen already). 2 are that proverbial 3-day drive from TX to inspect, or p/u, or talk the seller into shipping it. Pensacola is only a (long) 1 day drive, but at that price (+ transportation and phase converter), I can get new w/ warranty in single phase and it includes shipping.

...Stuck between a rock and a conundrum!

Ring, little phone! Ring! Please.;)

[Jacques Gagnon]

Derek,

I decided to order the 2000mm wagon with a view to be able to handle some/most of the operations on a full sheet of plywood when needed. The size of my shop (single car garage) did not suit itself to longer sliders.

As a lot of my hobby work involves solid wood, this configuration works well for me. My machine (Hammer B3) is located next to a wall and the 1300mm rip capacity allows me to crosscut a full sheet in half without having to move anything.

I obviously cannot rip along the full sheet in one pass but, as you have shared in a previous post, it is nonetheless possible to work around this limitation.

By the way, your ideas and innovative approaches have been, and will continue to be, useful as I learn how to use the slider. Thanks for sharing ��.

Regards,

J.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

To the OP: First step should be to define your budget and and what size machine you actually want. Your list ranges from Honda Civic to full-sized truck. From the supplier's standpoint, open-ended "tell me what to buy" questions are the most challenging to answer in any useful way. I hope this makes sense.

Erik

Hi Erik, one of the first things I mentioned was staying under 10k. I listed 2 sizes of machines, either a short stroke that can handle 5x5 BB or an 8.5ft if the price and value are there....I would only take a 10ft machine if it were a fantastic value or were the only option for example the Maksiwa saws are either short stroke or 10ft, no 8 option. And those would all of course still have to stay under 10k in the shop done.

I know you were with both SCM and Felder now....I've dealt with Tim Darr there in the past but now he's gone and I just ordered a sander from Geoff. That said, I still haven't been able to see anything in the way of what prices look like for some of the Hammer and Felder saws in question. At least with SCM I can just do a search online and there are several places selling them so I can have an idea. Any help or guidance there is appreciated. Thanks!

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I'm a slider fan and will have one again in the new shop building once it's up...I miss it dearly. I'm in the SCM/Minimax camp (SC3C most likely), although when I buy, a Hammer will also get compared and considered. The major difference between the SC3C and the SC4C is the wagon length; the former is "medium" short stroke and the latter is 8'6" wagon and a little heavier. The next step up is the S315 which is the 10' wagon.

I think you really need to narrow down the format you want to support what you want to do with it. Short strokes are great, but if you want to work with longer things, they obviously are not going to be the best choice. There are too many on your current list....


So narrow down what your actual cutting requirements are going to be.

HI Jim, thanks for pointing out the difference in the 3 vs 4....I don't know how I missed that...I guess the pics of the 3 are misleading, in most it looks like a longer machine. So I guess the real question then becomes what's the big difference between the 2 and the 3 for the short strokes? In terms of requirements, the only real requirement is that it has to be able to cut a 5x5 sheet....beyond that I could if necessary operate the saw as a typical cabinet saw if I want to rip long boards, but it would be nice to be able to do them on the slider if available.

In an ideal world, I could find a great solid 8.5ft slider that has some nice features maybe even a digital readout on the fence and tilt (or a good retrofit) and comes in under 8k. But does that exist?????? LOL

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Thanks for all the replies guys, but I just want to say that very few have actually talked about any of the specific saws I listed. Has anyone had their hands on a Maksiwa? The Cantek 305?

Most people on here have had some type of experience with Martin, Felder SCM and Altendorf which is all great...but in reality most of those machines are out of reach for my budget. On the used market some can be found, but it's near impossible to find those and single phase. Some of you mentioned getting a convertor...but not only does that add 1-2k onto the price but it also adds another item on the electric bill lol. And in terms of used machines, for instance that old Martin in Brooklyn available for 2k....yeah seems like a good value, but honestly don't want to deal with the hassle of fixing other peoples abuse, not to mention it'll probably cost another 1500 to get that machine here...1500 for the 3phase mention and then I'm in 5k for a probably beat up machine that while it is built like a tank, will need a fair amount of reconditioning and certainly fine tuning to get working right for me. Some guys absolutely love the process of restoring machines or cars what have you....I do not....I used to....not any more lol. While I completely agree that that old Martin for instance might be a really substantial piece at a reasonable price...I would rather take the slightly lighter maybe more technologically advanced new machine that will not last quite as long but chances are long enough for me. Anyway, I digress.....

If anyone has specific experience with any of the saws I listed, by all means please let me know and thanks so much again to everyone.

[Kevin Jenness]

In an ideal world, I could find a great solid 8.5ft slider that has some nice features maybe even a digital readout on the fence and tilt (or a good retrofit) and comes in under 8k.
But does that exist?????? LOL

Newer than 2010? Maybe. Depends on your definition of "great" and "solid" plus patience and luck.

You might try asking on Woodweb for commercial users' experience with various saws, and keeping an eye on the machinery exchange there. There are several current listings under "panel saws - sliding".

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Sounds like his budget is right around $10k. First, and not to be a debbie downer, but perhaps a 4x4 CNC would be a better use of your capital? I dont know that a slider will make you better/faster at building guitars. If you still want a slider, $10k is a good budget for a used machine, and potentially insufficient for a new machine--just my opinion. For example, i probably would set the Felder 700 as my baseline machine(or the SCM equivalent). I dont follow new machine prices, but im pretty sure that a K700 is $13-15,000. I have definitely seen a handful of very new Felder 700's in the last year. Im talking like less than 6 months of use and the owner is reselling for one reason or another. That could be a great option for you. Otherwise, i would reconsider your 2010 date. Personally, i consider 2010 to be pretty recent. Heck, i was still in college in 2010.... I have a 2005 Felder KF700, and i think it would be a great ROI for you. You dont sound like you will be running this saw 6 hours a day for 5 days a week. I have a low patience threshold with machines, and i cant level many critiques at the Felder. The 5.5hp motor is adequate, the xroll table is fine, the crosscut fence and outrigger are right on the edge of being too flimsy for full sheets of 3/4, but they work fine. The rip fence is nothing to write home about, but its also not cheap. I think most professionals and craftspeople worth their salt would use my machine and come away satisfied, but not impressed by anything one feature. I might get stoned for saying this, but i would prefer the 2005 Felder to the 1970s Martin T75 i had. The Martin is so heavy and overbuilt, but it lacked the refinement and better designed sliding table/crosscut fence/outrigger of the Felder. Not that i know anything, but i do think sliders are better designed today than they were in the 70s and 80s. I tend to agree with the "older is better" sentiment, but not when it comes to sliders. I think you would be safe with anything from the late 90s or early 2000s. Altendorf, Martin, Kolle, SCM, etc all seemed to settle into hardened steel ways and bearing carriages similar to what is being used today. I believe the Felder Xroll fence from 2003-2004 is largely unchanged to this day, and the crosscut fence extrusion is similar/the same. I dont know the cost, but you can replace the steel ways and bearings on these tables and get another 50 years out of them. Ive looked at my ways on my Felder and they show 0 signs of wear. The Martin T75's cast iron ways had a 1/8"+ groove worn in them from 40-50 years of professional use. That is a design more prone to wear and extremely difficult to bring back to like-new condition, but even still the guy that bought my machine slapped an indicator with a mag base on it and the full stroke had .003-.005" of deviation. Thats a machine that is 50 years old, used in a pro setting, forklifted onto an open flatbed trailer, driven from Texas to Pennsylvania, forklifted off the trailer and up my driveway, and without any calibration. There's a lot to be said about heft and design build! Which brings me to my final long-winded point. I wouldnt buy the Hammer or k500. No offense to people that own them, i know plenty of great products come off of them, but i would take a 10 year old better built machine than a new hammer. And the 500 is the hammer in slightly better clothes. It has the xroll table and the rest is a hammer machine, i think.

Hi Patrick, thanks for the info, I never said I make guitars....just high end speaker cabinets....by all means you can see what I do at http://www.kwcabs.com The other thing is that I would say right now my work has shifted to about 70/30 sheet goods vs hardwoods....I've had a good amount of OEM work building mostly Baltic Birch Vinyl covered models for other amp builders on top of my usual stuff.

The one big concern I have with a slider is will in impact my ability to work with small material much? I know I can more or less still operate the saw as a typical cabinet saw if I so choose, but for instance when I want to make small 1/8" strips off the machine.....right now I have my INCRA fence and all I have to do is just advance the fence over 1/4" which is indexing to 1/32nd and can do 1/1000th if necessary and boom my strips slide off to the left of the blade....or if I want to take 1/32 off the width of a board I can just set up my rip fence and boom it's gone. I know there will be an adjustment period before I am quick and comfortable doing all of these sorts of operations on a slider, but I guess the question is has anyone run into situations of things that they cannot really do on their slider, but could do easily on their cabinet saw?

As for a CNC, I would love to have one, but right now I can't think of hardly anything outside of occasional jig making that I am doing that would really benefit from it. Maybe in the future, but probably not for a while.

[Jacques Gagnon]

Kurt,

I am still in the early stages of learning how to use a slider saw. I have recently built a very basic Fritz and Franz jig and ran a couple of test cuts, just for fun. I took a piece of wood that was 15mm long by 4mm wide and took a 0.5mm slice off the end. I could have cut an even thinner cut if need be. This was just to test the concept of working with very small items and removing minute amounts of wood all the while keeping full control of the workpiece and the fingers far away from the blade.

The understanding I have from reading from experienced users is that the type of thin slices you are talking about can be accomplished by means of a parallel (or two) guides. I will let those whose have actually worked with these provide their personal views.

Regards,

Jacques

[Kevin Jenness]

Repetitive ripping of thin strips is one task a slider is ideal for, like using a bacon slicer. Set the fence as a bump stop behind the blade, hold the workpiece between Fritz and Franz and go to town with your hands well away from the blade. Reducing the width exactly will be enhanced with a dro. Ripping just with the fence means leaning over the carriage which can be a bit awkward, and ripping small pieces that can't be held on the carriage works better with a shop made zero clearance insert. Otherwise, small pieces are not a problem, in fact if they can be held on the carriage it is generally safer than on a cabinet saw and you can usually devise a way to do that. If I had room for a cabinet saw and a slider it would be convenient, but given the choice I am way happier with a slider.

[Dave Roock]

Hello All ! Just a FYI warning regarding Craigslist - criminals across the USA are using it to mostly gain your phone number and/or email address. The SCMI Sliding Table Saw Craigslist link posted above is a perfect example. Shows "Pensacola" but is on Atlanta Craigslist. These scam listings never have phone number, never have address or legit email. Targeting is typically on higher end items, like a SCMI saw. I realized this over time, while looking at Craigslist listings for Bobcat equipment & trucks. Reasoning of criminals is that if you have enough $ to buy a $7,000 -50,000 item, you have $ that can be swindled. If you get endless fake phone calls, fake emails & texts, they may all come from a fake Craigslist listing you replied to. Pricing on these fake listings ( by the more intelligent criminals) are typically not too low but are a very good deal that gets your notice. Good luck to all in your searches, if it is leaning towards "too good to be true" , then it probably is fake.

[Malcolm McLeod]

No hands-on, but on the same road, so to speak…

I can’t find price on the WA 6 either, and can’t get Stiles to call back (I uttered the H-word in first call ….yes, Hisssss-obbyist!). But, I found a Machinio French listing for new WA 8 TE (fixed crosscut fence) at $15,213. This makes me think the WA 6 (new) may be in the range of $8-10K??? Reinforced by 2008 WA 6 for $5600, also in France.

[Mo Ghotbi]

I have been very happy with my Hammer K3 Winner with the 78 inch stroke. Have built a bunch of cabinets and casework as a hobbyist and DIYer. If I had one complaint it would be the location of the on/off switch.

[Patrick Kane]

Gotcha, I misunderstood the guitar bit initially. Sadly, I am not musically inclined nor do I have much interest. A slider will kill at making those cases. Also, looks like you are in new england? You might be surprised at shipping costs. It was $500-600 to move the Martin from Texas to Pennsylvania.

Here is another one for you. New on pallet 2008 Felder k700s with 10Â’ table, digi elevation controls, and scoring saw. It looked like it was in upstate NY. They had it listed around $9k, I think.

[Kendall Scheier]

Kyle,

I completely empathize with your situation. I was in your exact spot 2 years ago. I wanted to buy a used machine and looked for 9 months but couldnÂ’t find any sliders under 10Â’ locally. For the machines I could find across the country; after taking into account the condition, rigging and shipping fees plus a phase converter made the total price of the machine too close to a brand new machine to be appealing. I tried to investigate the Felder options but quickly stopped receiving responses from their rep. I had all of my questions answered by both Sam Blasco and the local dealer Sam hooked me up with so after 9 months of looking I ordered a new SC4E.

The SC4E should be in your budget (or at least it was pre-covid). I paid $7470 total for my machine. I picked my saw up in LA but was quoted an even 8k if I wanted it delivered to AZ; 8300 if I wanted residential delivery with a lift gate. I know pricing has gone up since covid but I sure hope it has not gone up 25% or more that would make it 10k. Sam Blasco can send you a pricing list or the closest dealer they have near you can get you an exact quote easily. I was not dismissed when saying I was a hobbyist. Another thing to consider is that SCM typically offers discounts during the AWFS and IFS shows every year.

My SC4E has a 4.8 HP motor, enough carriage length to rip a full 8Â’ long sheet with space for the fence and a clamp on both ends, a scoring blade, dado capable, single phaseÂ… Mine did not come with an over arm dust guard nor DRO on the fences or blade tilt/height but I believe they are all options. Your dealer/Sam can confirm or correct this. In place of the DRO I use Incra fences on my fritz and FranÂ’s jig for the accuracy and repeatability that you also desire and are used to having. I also plan on making a parallel positioner or rip jig using an Incra LS positioner like Sam Blasco made with his Jointech positioner (which you can see on his youtube videos). My saw does not have the controls by the handle which would be very very convenient; it is the only real benefit I saw when comparing Felder to SCM. Pretty much everything else seems pretty equal.

I am in a 400sqft 2 car garage and my saw takes up a lot of the real estate but I feel it is totally worth it when considering the accuracy, repeatability and safety of this saw. I love it.

Your concern with cutting small/thin pieces should not be an issue. The fritz and FranÂ’s jig make cutting small pieces or small adjustments a snap and way safer than on a cabinet saw.

I would advise to only consider the 8.5Â’ + sized machines as the short stroke sliders may not hold up to your commercial shop. There was a recent thread on here where one guy was lamenting about how many unreliability issues his shop had with a certain Felder machine and Erik Loza commented saying that particular saw was not designed for that much use and he advised that the SC4E or the Felder equivalent (sorry, I get mixed up with all of the Felder numbersÂ…) should have been the minimum appropriate level of machine. Maybe you are already familiar with that thread since you have been doing a lot of reading on the subject.

I tried to answer all of your concerns but if I missed something please reach out to me. I am happy to help as much as I can. If you are in AZ feel free
to stop by and gets some hand on time with my machine.

Good luck with your decision!

[Jim Becker]

So I guess the real question then becomes what's the big difference between the 2 and the 3 for the short strokes?

The SC3C is a beefier machine and has an intermediate stroke length (5'5") on the slider. The SC2C has the same stroke and is a more base level machine. One of the big advantages to the SC3C between the two is that in the standard package, the SC3C comes with a lot of desirable accessories that cost extra on the SC2C. The bundling can be valuable...the same is true with Hammer; bundles can save you money. You can get current specs and pricing form Sam Blasco sam.blasco@scmgroup.com for the SCM/Minimax machines

I'm likely going with the SC3C when I have a new shop building up. It's shorter stroke than the S315WS (older 8'8" version) I had in the old shop but fits my budget and will cover my actual, real needs. For you, if you go SCM/Minimax and based on your comments, SC3C or SC4C would be good choices and both should be within or very close to your budget...and both have the bundled accessories that don't need to be bought after the fact.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

No hands-on, but on the same road, so to speak…

I can’t find price on the WA 6 either, and can’t get Stiles to call back (I uttered the H-word in first call ….yes, Hisssss-obbyist!). But, I found a Machinio French listing for new WA 8 TE (fixed crosscut fence) at $15,213. This makes me think the WA 6 (new) may be in the range of $8-10K??? Reinforced by 2008 WA 6 for $5600, also in France.

I had found a new WA-6 listed on a Euro site for something like $6500 pounds which is about $8800....now I have no idea if that is what it would sell for in the states or if it is even available and when. If it is and that's the approx. price then I would say it looks like a good value based on the brand, but it is Chinese from what I understand and I do have concern about that.

Does anyone have a newish WA-6 on here?????

[Kurt Wyberanec]

The SC3C is a beefier machine and has an intermediate stroke length (5'5") on the slider. The SC2C has the same stroke and is a more base level machine. One of the big advantages to the SC3C between the two is that in the standard package, the SC3C comes with a lot of desirable accessories that cost extra on the SC2C. The bundling can be valuable...the same is true with Hammer; bundles can save you money. You can get current specs and pricing form Sam Blasco sam.blasco@scmgroup.com for the SCM/Minimax machines

I'm likely going with the SC3C when I have a new shop building up. It's shorter stroke than the S315WS (older 8'8" version) I had in the old shop but fits my budget and will cover my actual, real needs. For you, if you go SCM/Minimax and based on your comments, SC3C or SC4C would be good choices and both should be within or very close to your budget...and both have the bundled accessories that don't need to be bought after the fact.

Hi Jim, do you have any idea what those included accessories are? Curious because they really don't seem to include those differences on the site?

There's a significant difference in the price the 2 seems to be listed around for 6k (no idea what comes with any of these prices) the 3 for about 8k and I've even seen the 4 for as little as 8600.

Also do you know if any of those can be ordered with the better overarm guard like the nova etc.?
Thanks for Sam's email, I will reach out for some info.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kyle,

I completely empathize with your situation. I was in your exact spot 2 years ago. I wanted to buy a used machine and looked for 9 months but couldnÂ’t find any sliders under 10Â’ locally. For the machines I could find across the country; after taking into account the condition, rigging and shipping fees plus a phase converter made the total price of the machine too close to a brand new machine to be appealing. I tried to investigate the Felder options but quickly stopped receiving responses from their rep. I had all of my questions answered by both Sam Blasco and the local dealer Sam hooked me up with so after 9 months of looking I ordered a new SC4E.

The SC4E should be in your budget (or at least it was pre-covid). I paid $7470 total for my machine. I picked my saw up in LA but was quoted an even 8k if I wanted it delivered to AZ; 8300 if I wanted residential delivery with a lift gate. I know pricing has gone up since covid but I sure hope it has not gone up 25% or more that would make it 10k. Sam Blasco can send you a pricing list or the closest dealer they have near you can get you an exact quote easily. I was not dismissed when saying I was a hobbyist. Another thing to consider is that SCM typically offers discounts during the AWFS and IFS shows every year.

My SC4E has a 4.8 HP motor, enough carriage length to rip a full 8Â’ long sheet with space for the fence and a clamp on both ends, a scoring blade, dado capable, single phaseÂ… Mine did not come with an over arm dust guard nor DRO on the fences or blade tilt/height but I believe they are all options. Your dealer/Sam can confirm or correct this. In place of the DRO I use Incra fences on my fritz and FranÂ’s jig for the accuracy and repeatability that you also desire and are used to having. I also plan on making a parallel positioner or rip jig using an Incra LS positioner like Sam Blasco made with his Jointech positioner (which you can see on his youtube videos). My saw does not have the controls by the handle which would be very very convenient; it is the only real benefit I saw when comparing Felder to SCM. Pretty much everything else seems pretty equal.

I am in a 400sqft 2 car garage and my saw takes up a lot of the real estate but I feel it is totally worth it when considering the accuracy, repeatability and safety of this saw. I love it.

Your concern with cutting small/thin pieces should not be an issue. The fritz and FranÂ’s jig make cutting small pieces or small adjustments a snap and way safer than on a cabinet saw.

I would advise to only consider the 8.5Â’ + sized machines as the short stroke sliders may not hold up to your commercial shop. There was a recent thread on here where one guy was lamenting about how many unreliability issues his shop had with a certain Felder machine and Erik Loza commented saying that particular saw was not designed for that much use and he advised that the SC4E or the Felder equivalent (sorry, I get mixed up with all of the Felder numbersÂ…) should have been the minimum appropriate level of machine. Maybe you are already familiar with that thread since you have been doing a lot of reading on the subject.

I tried to answer all of your concerns but if I missed something please reach out to me. I am happy to help as much as I can. If you are in AZ feel free
to stop by and gets some hand on time with my machine.

Good luck with your decision!

Thanks very much for all, the exact kind of experiences I'm looking to hear.

Have you found any issues that you'd like different about your SC4E? It's definitely one on my radar and did you do any comparison shopping to other brands?

Thanks.

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim, do you have any idea what those included accessories are? Curious because they really don't seem to include those differences on the site?



Please clarify with Sam what the current packages contain, but the SC3C package I'm familiar with includes the separate miter bar (which I use 90% of the time), the additional small support table, heavier trunnions, dado capability, angle presets on the outrigger, more horsepower, beefier outrigger support, etc.

We've had conversations about better overhead guard/collection here, some even recently, and for both SCM/Minimax and the Hammer machines, it's a heck of a lot more cost effective to go with a third party overarm solution, such as the SharkGuard, Grizzly, Excalibur (however that's available these days), etc., as they all come in at about $500 and the OEM upgrades not only have to be special ordered, they cost an arm, a leg and probably some other body parts to purchase for the SC3C and K3 level machines.

[Mark e Kessler]

If you want an industrial level saw and and your budget is under 10k then you need to be looking at used.
Also 3p you will have a lot more choices used for less money, 3p converter try to stick with a Phase Perfect you will be better off in the long run over rotary.

The green scmi’s from the 90’s are pretty rock solid and inexpensive, I had one and worked in several shops with them but can’t remember the models right not cuz it’s been 25+ years (si16 maybe?). Used altendorf’s can be had but be careful common for used ones to come out of big shops whre they were run hard, an asset tag on one would be a clue, watch out for phenolic ways some times they have been replaced, look for short stroke wear on those also

I would stay away from to much electronics on an older machine unless its been replaced lately, all electronics will fail at some point, some of the older stuff was custom designed in house non standard components so will be potentially hard to find and very expensive, newer electronics can expensive as well but a lot of it is more standard in the industry like a circuit board used across many types of things

if going new
Hammer, k500 share the same saw unit
k700s is in your crosshairs price wise without dro and is a bit above build than the hammer,k500
the overhead guard is excellent as far as guards go pretty much all the dust is captured as long as its not an edge cut
The standard motor option is more than enough unless you plan on cutting wet railroad ties
do not get a saw with the scoring powered off the main blade, you want a separate scoring motor.
I have owned this saw and it is an ok entry level saw although if i was starting a business again buying a new machine it would be the k940, owning both I can tell you it is night and day.

The non dro are surprisingly accurate but DRO is definitely worth it and a few years ago it would have been hard to convince me otherwise, you can do aftermarket but factory option is better and worth it in my opinion, it’s cleaner better integrated into the machine. It would have also been hard to convince me to go electronic, I honestly like to use the handles but again it’s nice to beable to go back to a measurement previously use and it be the same.

I just did a little test on this on my IG feed, look up kessler_woodworks…

I mostly now work in hardwoods with limited ply, sounds like 8.5 - 9ft would work for you, it is true go as long as you can but unless you are doing a lot of commercial, residential work you can get away without it. 8.5 seems a little tight with clamping in front and back, I have 9 and its tight for an 8’, 9’ clears the blade on an 8’ cut not sure if 8.5 does

Can’t speak for the newer scm’s my experience was in the 90’s with them and they were everywhere it was the brand to get - i had the saw 24” planer (s63b?) a j/p - the green era was a good era… I have been told by friends still in shops that the Nova class is somewhat lightweight but we are talking about large architectural mill shops so who knows what that means

[Warren Lake]

There was SI320 and a Hydro 3200 and think SI-16N. Usually 9 HP 5 plus inches cutting with a 16" blade. Think the manual said 14" blade if scoring but that might have been the smaller ones. Prices usually 2,500.00k - 3k plus Canadian.

[Kendall Scheier]

Kurt, the only thing that bugs me is not having the controls on the handle or somewhere above the table. It’s not that big of an inconvenience honestly; I’m 99% pleased with my machine. I definitely don’t regret buying it. A few guys have retrofitted controls (and documented the process) on the back end of their sliders so if you’re so inclined that is a possibility.

As far as things I would like different; of course DRO would be great to have but it wasn’t in my budget. And my incra Fritz and Frans really does satisfy my needs/wants, I think it is a very serviceable alternative. Look into lamb tool works (lambtoolworks.com), he makes very high quality accessories for many brands of sliders including DRO’s and parallel guides. I would also like to have Mac’s airtight clamps but they are almost half of what I paid for my saw so I’m having a hard time justifying it. I do think about them when I have to walk around a big sheet of plywood to release the clamp at the head of the slider… it’s a pretty minor inconvenience but if I was making a living at this and cutting all day the back and forth would be enough to hamper productivity I believe. For me as a hobbyist it will likely be something on my wish list that I may never get to.

I did not do any in-person comparisons of any machines; I don’t know of any Felder or other manufacturer reps in my area. Even my local SCM rep didn’t have this machine in a showroom or anything so all of my research was online. Like I said, I was dismissed very quickly by the Felder rep so I didn’t get very far that route (I’m not going to beg someone to take my money lol). Plus Felder doesn’t seem to do standard packages so getting a general price on a machine is difficult just because they have a million options to choose from. Pros and cons to that model for sure.

In general the only two manufacturers on my list were Felder and SCM unless I could find a used altendorf or Martin… but they never came up locally.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Mike Kees]

Kurt, I currently own a Felder k700s sliding saw. Previously owned a minimax SC2. The minimax was an excellent saw ,built simple and stout ,with eveything that mattered adjustable. It was an 80's version that I purchased from a friend that needed work. He is not patient, I am, as well mechanical ability played a role in reviving this machine. Italians build stuff with basic designs and heavy. I would recommend a new one as it has been improved with a few more features from the one I had. The Felder is well built "underneath the hood" ,trunnions are solid . The rest of the machine has more of a refined look than Minimax's all business look/feel. The slider is smoooooth. Holds it settings well. Felder also get my vote as recommended. You asked about Cantek as well. I own a planer from them it is a well made and capable basic machine that I really like. Talked to a rep about their sliders, but my only hands on experience was a used one. The SCM dealer in Calgary had one there that needed a couple parts that he had ordered and been waiting for for over a year. This was pre Covid. Cantek are made in Taiwan.

[Mick Simon]

Kurt,
I have had a very similar experience as Kendall. I ordered the SC4E about 18 months ago. At the time it was $8400 delivered to NM, similarly outfitted to Kendall's. The one exception that I noticed is mine has an analog digital gauge for the tilt angle. I also agree with the assessment of what needs to be offered as an option. When cutting sheet goods, the Start/Stop controls are not conveniently located. I would be happy to pay more for a secondary set on the carriage a la Felder.
I ordered mine with residential lift gate service, paid extra for it and was then advised that it was too big for a lift gate once delivery was lined up. Elite refused to refund the lift gate charges and I wound up renting a trailer and driving to Albuquerque to pick it up from the FedEx Freight depot. Live and learn.
I'm very happy with the saw and would buy it again.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

If you want an industrial level saw and and your budget is under 10k then you need to be looking at used.
Also 3p you will have a lot more choices used for less money, 3p converter try to stick with a Phase Perfect you will be better off in the long run over rotary.

The green scmi’s from the 90’s are pretty rock solid and inexpensive, I had one and worked in several shops with them but can’t remember the models right not cuz it’s been 25+ years (si16 maybe?). Used altendorf’s can be had but be careful common for used ones to come out of big shops whre they were run hard, an asset tag on one would be a clue, watch out for phenolic ways some times they have been replaced, look for short stroke wear on those also

I would stay away from to much electronics on an older machine unless its been replaced lately, all electronics will fail at some point, some of the older stuff was custom designed in house non standard components so will be potentially hard to find and very expensive, newer electronics can expensive as well but a lot of it is more standard in the industry like a circuit board used across many types of things

if going new
Hammer, k500 share the same saw unit
k700s is in your crosshairs price wise without dro and is a bit above build than the hammer,k500
the overhead guard is excellent as far as guards go pretty much all the dust is captured as long as its not an edge cut
The standard motor option is more than enough unless you plan on cutting wet railroad ties
do not get a saw with the scoring powered off the main blade, you want a separate scoring motor.
I have owned this saw and it is an ok entry level saw although if i was starting a business again buying a new machine it would be the k940, owning both I can tell you it is night and day.

The non dro are surprisingly accurate but DRO is definitely worth it and a few years ago it would have been hard to convince me otherwise, you can do aftermarket but factory option is better and worth it in my opinion, it’s cleaner better integrated into the machine. It would have also been hard to convince me to go electronic, I honestly like to use the handles but again it’s nice to beable to go back to a measurement previously use and it be the same.

I just did a little test on this on my IG feed, look up kessler_woodworks…

I mostly now work in hardwoods with limited ply, sounds like 8.5 - 9ft would work for you, it is true go as long as you can but unless you are doing a lot of commercial, residential work you can get away without it. 8.5 seems a little tight with clamping in front and back, I have 9 and its tight for an 8’, 9’ clears the blade on an 8’ cut not sure if 8.5 does

Can’t speak for the newer scm’s my experience was in the 90’s with them and they were everywhere it was the brand to get - i had the saw 24” planer (s63b?) a j/p - the green era was a good era… I have been told by friends still in shops that the Nova class is somewhat lightweight but we are talking about large architectural mill shops so who knows what that means

Quickly looking it looks like a phase perfect is half the price of a saw! Am I'm not sure does it involve an additional operating cost like a rotary? Rotary has a motor that has to run and likewise adds to your draw. But for 3kish for a a convertor that would severely bring down my saw budget. I understand it opens a lot of options, but aside from a possible CNC in the future I don't forsee any large machines other than this slider coming in to take advantage. Appreciate the idea, but will probably still with single phase.

As for the Felder series...it's been hard to get pricing. My previous rep there was great could get him on the phone at any time and always got back to me...he moved on for whatever reason, but now it's been quite difficult to find pricing. I felt that any of the 700 series were actually over my budget....Perhaps Eric can chime in here?? I like their products but they're definitely not the easiest company to work with....I recently ordered an HS-950 sander and it took me over 2 weeks just to be able to buy it....and they were trying to make it sound like they did me a favor...I hear the exact opposite about their service overseas which seems to be stellar....I wonder if Felder Europe knows how things are running here!

As for DRO chances are I would probably have to go aftermarket unless I got a good deal. I really want it predominately on the rip fence but the crosscut would be awesome too. The problem seems to be that a lot of these companies only offer those types of accessories on their mid to higher end, their low and low mid stuff it's not even available. Have you had any experience in aftermarket DRO? I know Wixey makes a lot of them but they don't list any industrial brands like these but don't know if they can't' be made to work or how good they are....for a few hundred bucks though it might be good value....sure there are other companies out there too, would like to know them. Thanks.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt, the only thing that bugs me is not having the controls on the handle or somewhere above the table. It’s not that big of an inconvenience honestly; I’m 99% pleased with my machine. I definitely don’t regret buying it. A few guys have retrofitted controls (and documented the process) on the back end of their sliders so if you’re so inclined that is a possibility.

As far as things I would like different; of course DRO would be great to have but it wasn’t in my budget. And my incra Fritz and Frans really does satisfy my needs/wants, I think it is a very serviceable alternative. Look into lamb tool works (lambtoolworks.com), he makes very high quality accessories for many brands of sliders including DRO’s and parallel guides. I would also like to have Mac’s airtight clamps but they are almost half of what I paid for my saw so I’m having a hard time justifying it. I do think about them when I have to walk around a big sheet of plywood to release the clamp at the head of the slider… it’s a pretty minor inconvenience but if I was making a living at this and cutting all day the back and forth would be enough to hamper productivity I believe. For me as a hobbyist it will likely be something on my wish list that I may never get to.

I did not do any in-person comparisons of any machines; I don’t know of any Felder or other manufacturer reps in my area. Even my local SCM rep didn’t have this machine in a showroom or anything so all of my research was online. Like I said, I was dismissed very quickly by the Felder rep so I didn’t get very far that route (I’m not going to beg someone to take my money lol). Plus Felder doesn’t seem to do standard packages so getting a general price on a machine is difficult just because they have a million options to choose from. Pros and cons to that model for sure.

In general the only two manufacturers on my list were Felder and SCM unless I could find a used altendorf or Martin… but they never came up locally.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

The Lamb tool works stuff looks interesting but extremely expensive what what it is, it seems to me. But all worth checking out.

How did you fit your INCRA curious how that works and some people have mentioned using it as a parallel fence...can't understand how it would mount?

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt,
I have had a very similar experience as Kendall. I ordered the SC4E about 18 months ago. At the time it was $8400 delivered to NM, similarly outfitted to Kendall's. The one exception that I noticed is mine has an analog digital gauge for the tilt angle. I also agree with the assessment of what needs to be offered as an option. When cutting sheet goods, the Start/Stop controls are not conveniently located. I would be happy to pay more for a secondary set on the carriage a la Felder.
I ordered mine with residential lift gate service, paid extra for it and was then advised that it was too big for a lift gate once delivery was lined up. Elite refused to refund the lift gate charges and I wound up renting a trailer and driving to Albuquerque to pick it up from the FedEx Freight depot. Live and learn.
I'm very happy with the saw and would buy it again.

Getting it to and in my shop is definitely a big worry for me. You would think these companies that sell nothing but big gear would have that all worked out really well, but I know it seems to be an issue. When I had my J/P delivered the guy had it up the drive way really fast but had no way to move it off....Felder sizes everything to use a narrow pallet jack which is not a common thing here in the US apparently....had a to go rent one just to get the machine off. PIA and unacceptable when spending this much on equipment. So it goes....we never win lol.

[Jim Becker]

Brian Lamb of Lamb Tool is a member here. :) Yes, companies like his have premium pricing, but they have a premium, quality product and it's not mass-market. It's the same with Air Clamps for the wagon...they are not inexpensive, but for anyone clamping material to the wagon frequently, especially for any kind of production, they pay for themselves in time and effort savings.

[Kevin Jenness]

I know Wixey makes a lot of them but they don't list any industrial brands like these but don't know if they can't' be made to work or how good they are....for a few hundred bucks though it might be good value....sure there are other companies out there too, would like to know them. Thanks.

You can adapt a Wixey although the setup may not be ideal. https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=APq-WBuDBKpodmsuH_jqbxl1fzDCQwcpNA:1644002227506&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=hammer+k3+wixey+site:sawmillcreek.org&fir=2w3vrK_ttsUsiM%252C0PhOAVVIXwKVsM%252C_%253Bms PZr- CJf17duM%252CtFBR1foQW8lFXM%252C_%253BnBQTWfFRSQ42 EM%252C0PhOAVVIXwKVsM%252C_%253BdAZOVV645SqAwM%252 Cqp18oH54CNyhmM%252C_%253Bci1bc0CZ4xGL1M%252C0PhOA VVIXwKVsM%252C_%253BxlbTn6-bbxLUQM%252C0QC91UkcLPoIMM%252C_%253B2DqVkkRV_Kz0U M%252CDsqggosBpxCDWM%252C_%253B2qZvLdS-ilfqYM%252CkvCf-3HizdCwOM%252C_%253BLFjLKa_P1yielM%252CDsqggosBpxC DWM%252C_%253BoW7Z7nL8S6RA2M%252CqVZRTyLT2gkBwM%25 2C_&usg=AI4_-kTWFkoQU-UAum391H2Pw98IGQ1v-A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPwZ7G4eb1AhWpZd8KHZ13BLYQjJkEegQIHxAC&biw=1366&bih=657&dpr=1 (https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=APq-WBuDBKpodmsuH_jqbxl1fzDCQwcpNA:1644002227506&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=hammer+k3+wixey+site:sawmillcreek.org&fir=2w3vrK_ttsUsiM%252C0PhOAVVIXwKVsM%252C_%253Bms PZr-CJf17duM%252CtFBR1foQW8lFXM%252C_%253BnBQTWfFRSQ42 EM%252C0PhOAVVIXwKVsM%252C_%253BdAZOVV645SqAwM%252 Cqp18oH54CNyhmM%252C_%253Bci1bc0CZ4xGL1M%252C0PhOA VVIXwKVsM%252C_%253BxlbTn6-bbxLUQM%252C0QC91UkcLPoIMM%252C_%253B2DqVkkRV_Kz0U M%252CDsqggosBpxCDWM%252C_%253B2qZvLdS-ilfqYM%252CkvCf-3HizdCwOM%252C_%253BLFjLKa_P1yielM%252CDsqggosBpxC DWM%252C_%253BoW7Z7nL8S6RA2M%252CqVZRTyLT2gkBwM%25 2C_&usg=AI4_-kTWFkoQU-UAum391H2Pw98IGQ1v-A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPwZ7G4eb1AhWpZd8KHZ13BLYQjJkEegQIHxAC&biw=1366&bih=657&dpr=1)

473173473174 Accurate Technologies makes "Pro Kits" for various saws but they run around $650.

As far as clamps and jigs, many can be made for small $, although the convenience of air clamps is tempting.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Brian Lamb of Lamb Tool is a member here. :) Yes, companies like his have premium pricing, but they have a premium, quality product and it's not mass-market. It's the same with Air Clamps for the wagon...they are not inexpensive, but for anyone clamping material to the wagon frequently, especially for any kind of production, they pay for themselves in time and effort savings.

Hey Jim, I totally understand the business model....mine is the same way! I'm interested in the air clamps too, but it's probably more of a down the road purchase first have to get the saw lol.

[Mark e Kessler]

Quickly looking it looks like a phase perfect is half the price of a saw! Am I'm not sure does it involve an additional operating cost like a rotary? Rotary has a motor that has to run and likewise adds to your draw. But for 3kish for a a convertor that would severely bring down my saw budget. I understand it opens a lot of options, but aside from a possible CNC in the future I don't forsee any large machines other than this slider coming in to take advantage. Appreciate the idea, but will probably still with single phase.

As for the Felder series...it's been hard to get pricing. My previous rep there was great could get him on the phone at any time and always got back to me...he moved on for whatever reason, but now it's been quite difficult to find pricing. I felt that any of the 700 series were actually over my budget....Perhaps Eric can chime in here?? I like their products but they're definitely not the easiest company to work with....I recently ordered an HS-950 sander and it took me over 2 weeks just to be able to buy it....and they were trying to make it sound like they did me a favor...I hear the exact opposite about their service overseas which seems to be stellar....I wonder if Felder Europe knows how things are running here!

As for DRO chances are I would probably have to go aftermarket unless I got a good deal. I really want it predominately on the rip fence but the crosscut would be awesome too. The problem seems to be that a lot of these companies only offer those types of accessories on their mid to higher end, their low and low mid stuff it's not even available. Have you had any experience in aftermarket DRO? I know Wixey makes a lot of them but they don't list any industrial brands like these but don't know if they can't' be made to work or how good they are....for a few hundred bucks though it might be good value....sure there are other companies out there too, would like to know them. Thanks.


You can usually find a used 10hp PP for 2000-2500 (tel:2000-2500) and can get 36a out of it (70a 1 phase) and actually a little more, so used not really that much more than equivalent new rotary which would be a 20hp. There is a cost savings but for hobby not much in standby for 4 hrs for 5 days a week its like $350 in elect depending the PP is pretty much zero. The PP is also very balanced so it plays nice with electronics.

Yes, it’s like pulling teeth to get prices and it ordered and time depending who they are, i was on a 2-3 week return call cycle for months and i was trying to throw money at them. I will say though after i fired my salesman and was assigned a new one he was excellent but at that point I escalated the issue to top management so I am sure he was on a mission, looks like you are in CT, Tim Derr was his name and I would deal with him again. Yes there is an arrogance attitude within Felder corporate, some of that is cultural but that is a different discussion.

As far as dro, some are happy with wixey I have never had luck with them. Mag strip dro is the best way to go but can be about 500 and one of the reasons why is you do not need an encoder rail, the fiama comes to mind (the f7) https://fiama-us.com/fiama-products/battery-powered-programmable-position-indicators/

The other option that i have used with success on a slider is an accurate technologys, i used it on an scmi xcut and rip I had one for 25+ years and recently sold it for $200 i think it cost like $700 when i bought it, used it on many saws over the years. I am getting ready to buy one for a new piece of equipment. If you use it on the xcut you loose the ability to use the fence in the forward position because the encoder rail has to be screwed to the face of the fence. There might be a way to make it work but i never tried as this saw was dedicated to busting up entire lifts of sheet goods. Now for me it wouldn’t work, i like using the fence in the forward position whenever it makes sense,, like furniture size parts. The other benefit is in a small shop which i have it puts the outrigger and fence in a position that isn’t in the way as much (for my layout).

For the rip you should be able to use the one for the cabinet saw $300
https://www.proscale.com/products/industry-applications/woodworking-cabinets/digifence/
they also make a kit for the xcut, looks much cleaner then what i had but they weren’t making custom solutions it was a firs gen.
https://www.proscale.com/products/industry-applications/woodworking-cabinets/prokit-sliding-table-saw-digital-kits/

[Kendall Scheier]

The Lamb tool works stuff looks interesting but extremely expensive what what it is, it seems to me. But all worth checking out.

How did you fit your INCRA curious how that works and some people have mentioned using it as a parallel fence...can't understand how it would mount?

Kurt, I use the incra fence and shop stops on my Fritz and Frans jig as shown in the attached photos. I will use the entire LS positioner in the near future as a parallel rip jig designed close to how Sam Blasco made his that is shown in his YouTube videos. The positioner will either be attached to the small auxiliary table or mounted on a base which will reference and attach to the outrigger.

Using the fences I can take advantage of the incremental teeth for repeatability and adjustments as fine as 1/32” as you are familiar with as well as a sacrificial fence.

[Mick Simon]

Getting it to and in my shop is definitely a big worry for me. You would think these companies that sell nothing but big gear would have that all worked out really well, but I know it seems to be an issue. When I had my J/P delivered the guy had it up the drive way really fast but had no way to move it off....Felder sizes everything to use a narrow pallet jack which is not a common thing here in the US apparently....had a to go rent one just to get the machine off. PIA and unacceptable when spending this much on equipment. So it goes....we never win lol.

I spent my career in industrial CNC machinery. I was so used to being able to pick up the phone and arrange a bonded rigger to pick and place machines that I thought, "Nope, no way. There was no way they could get it in there." Wonderful skill to have. Unfortunately all the riggers I contacted don't do residential due to licensing issues and insurance. So I called 4 friends and we managed it off the trailer with a come along, over a gravel drive (sheets of CDX ply) and pry bars, through a double door and into the shop.

473188

473189

473190

473187
473191

[Jim Becker]

Jeff Bartley and I managed to get the S315WS out of my old shop and onto his trailer by ourselves through a combination of a pallet jack, some dollies, ramps and a manual winch. I would have never dreamed that we would be successful and was "afeared" when he arrived with a trailer and himself. :D But we did it. When I originally received the saw, I had it loaded on my tilt bed trailer at the trucking terminal and with the help of a couple of friends, we slid the crate thought the doors and managed to wrangle it off the pallet. I rented pallet jack then got it in place. (There's a thread about that original delivery here at SMC)

[Mick Simon]

When I found out that there would be no lift gate, I called around checking on pallet jack rentals. $85/day and I figured I might need it for 3 days to get it set where I wanted. Harbor Freight sells them for $225 so I just bought one. It comes in handy.

[Albert Lee]

I am in SCM camp. I compared the best of SCM and Felder before I went with L'Invincibile si X.

some minor details with Felder that I am not completely happy with.
plus SCM here in NZ sells like 2/3 of what you guys pay for in USA.

[Erik Loza]

For anyone who cares, from a supplier's viewpoint:

-If at all possible, PICK UP YOUR MACHINE AT A LOCAL TERMINAL. This alone will mitigate the possibility of freight damage or at the very least, de-burden you of having to deal with it should hidden damage occur. The responsibility of solving the freight claim will rest on the shoulders of he/she who is in possession of the machine.

-No matter what a supplier tells you, be prepared to tackle logistical challenges on the delivery side. Have pallet jacks, tools, extra lumber, and unwilling friends/neighbors/children to help with this process. If anyone has it in their mind that "such-and-such vendor" will do a better job of delivery, they are mistaken. No matter who you purchase from, we are all beholden to the same (not large) pool of LTL carriers to get equipment from point-a to point-b.

-This is the trailer (https://www.jlg.com/en-in/equipment/drop-deck-trailers/utility-trailers/ut410-utility-trailer) we have been recommending to customers lately. Most Sunbelts can offer them.

Hope this helps,

Erik

[Kevin Jenness]

unwilling friends/neighbors/children

Are you sure that's a good idea? :)

[Erik Loza]

...Perhaps Eric can chime in here?? I like their products but they're definitely not the easiest company to work with....

Sorry, just noticed this. Kurt, this doesn't make sense to me. True that Felder's website is terrible to navigate but I will gladly tell a customer the ballpark list price of any machine over the phone or by direct email and imagine ditto for our other reps. Assuming are talking about a stock configuration rather than a some custom build. Not sure who you are working with but if you are having trouble connecting, let me know and I'll reach out to that rep and see that you get taken care of. As a Felder rep, I can 100% guarantee that if a customer is asking for specific pricing, the US sales team takes that request very seriously. Thanks,

Erik

[Erik Loza]

unwilling friends/neighbors/children

Are you sure that's a good idea? :)

The children have no choice.

Erik

[Charles Coolidge]

I sent a knee mill out of my residential garage. The buyer rented a telescoping fork lift for not much money that reached into the garage, picked up the mill (these things lift pallets of roofing shingles up onto roofs the mill weight was childs play) and retracted it. Pretty easy rigging honestly.

[Kendall Scheier]

For anyone who cares, from a supplier's viewpoint:

-If at all possible, PICK UP YOUR MACHINE AT A LOCAL TERMINAL. This alone will mitigate the possibility of freight damage or at the very least, de-burden you of having to deal with it should hidden damage occur. The responsibility of solving the freight claim will rest on the shoulders of he/she who is in possession of the machine.

-No matter what a supplier tells you, be prepared to tackle logistical challenges on the delivery side. Have pallet jacks, tools, extra lumber, and unwilling friends/neighbors/children to help with this process. If anyone has it in their mind that "such-and-such vendor" will do a better job of delivery, they are mistaken. No matter who you purchase from, we are all beholden to the same (not large) pool of LTL carriers to get equipment from point-a to point-b.

-This is the trailer (https://www.jlg.com/en-in/equipment/drop-deck-trailers/utility-trailers/ut410-utility-trailer) we have been recommending to customers lately. Most Sunbelts can offer them.

Hope this helps,

Erik

I used a similar trailer and it worked fantastically

[Kurt Wyberanec]

You can usually find a used 10hp PP for 2000-2500 (tel:2000-2500) and can get 36a out of it (70a 1 phase) and actually a little more, so used not really that much more than equivalent new rotary which would be a 20hp. There is a cost savings but for hobby not much in standby for 4 hrs for 5 days a week its like $350 in elect depending the PP is pretty much zero. The PP is also very balanced so it plays nice with electronics.

Yes, it’s like pulling teeth to get prices and it ordered and time depending who they are, i was on a 2-3 week return call cycle for months and i was trying to throw money at them. I will say though after i fired my salesman and was assigned a new one he was excellent but at that point I escalated the issue to top management so I am sure he was on a mission, looks like you are in CT, Tim Derr was his name and I would deal with him again. Yes there is an arrogance attitude within Felder corporate, some of that is cultural but that is a different discussion.

As far as dro, some are happy with wixey I have never had luck with them. Mag strip dro is the best way to go but can be about 500 and one of the reasons why is you do not need an encoder rail, the fiama comes to mind (the f7) https://fiama-us.com/fiama-products/battery-powered-programmable-position-indicators/

The other option that i have used with success on a slider is an accurate technologys, i used it on an scmi xcut and rip I had one for 25+ years and recently sold it for $200 i think it cost like $700 when i bought it, used it on many saws over the years. I am getting ready to buy one for a new piece of equipment. If you use it on the xcut you loose the ability to use the fence in the forward position because the encoder rail has to be screwed to the face of the fence. There might be a way to make it work but i never tried as this saw was dedicated to busting up entire lifts of sheet goods. Now for me it wouldn’t work, i like using the fence in the forward position whenever it makes sense,, like furniture size parts. The other benefit is in a small shop which i have it puts the outrigger and fence in a position that isn’t in the way as much (for my layout).

For the rip you should be able to use the one for the cabinet saw $300
https://www.proscale.com/products/industry-applications/woodworking-cabinets/digifence/
they also make a kit for the xcut, looks much cleaner then what i had but they weren’t making custom solutions it was a firs gen.
https://www.proscale.com/products/industry-applications/woodworking-cabinets/prokit-sliding-table-saw-digital-kits/

Mark, I dealt with Tim Derr also, but alas was told he's no longer with them. I had good experiences with him, so it goes.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Sorry, just noticed this. Kurt, this doesn't make sense to me. True that Felder's website is terrible to navigate but I will gladly tell a customer the ballpark list price of any machine over the phone or by direct email and imagine ditto for our other reps. Assuming are talking about a stock configuration rather than a some custom build. Not sure who you are working with but if you are having trouble connecting, let me know and I'll reach out to that rep and see that you get taken care of. As a Felder rep, I can 100% guarantee that if a customer is asking for specific pricing, the US sales team takes that request very seriously. Thanks,

Erik

Hi Erik, you might expect they would but unfortunately hasn't been the case for me lately. Had recently had a discussion when ordering my HS-950 with someone (won't mention here) and while we eventually made that deal happen took a couple of weeks, I couldn't get any sort of slider pricing yet. Was just trying to find my entry point as to what machines are in my ball park and haven't been successful. Two of the reps didn't even back to me. Don't get me wrong, this is not the only company that sometimes behaves like this there are plenty in various industries but when someone is trying to give you money you would think they'd be eager lol.

Anyway, would be more than happy to have a discussion on some pricing if you can. I'm relatively new here as a poster but have been a reader for a long time so I'm still getting used to some of the rules and requirements. I think I have to make a donation somewhere to get access to pics, pms, and classified replies....I'll try to get in on that, but let me know how I can get in touch with you and we can discuss. Thanks very much!

[Erik Loza]

Kurt, I'm obviously in the dark about your conversation with Felder but here is what I can share:

-Regarding sales reps, we have an experienced sales manager in the DE office who will absolutely make sure you get a call back if that's what you want. I imagine that the rep you are or did work with is out of the DE office. If you want me to get this manager involved, message me offline.

-As far as pricing goes, what you need to know is that it will be at least $11K to get a full panel-sized machine from Felder. And the same goes for the Italians. Anything less will be a cross-cutting or short-stroke slider. Assuming you want to be able to rip full sheets on the slider, that is. Based on In my experience, pricing between Austrian and Italian brands is very close, assuming we are talking apples-to-apples in terms of spec. Anytime a person sees a new full-sized slider for less than $10K, that machine will be East Asian in origin. Hope this helps,

Erik

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt, I'm obviously in the dark about your conversation with Felder but here is what I can share:

-Regarding sales reps, we have an experienced sales manager in the DE office who will absolutely make sure you get a call back if that's what you want. I imagine that the rep you are or did work with is out of the DE office. If you want me to get this manager involved, message me offline.

-As far as pricing goes, what you need to know is that it will be at least $11K to get a full panel-sized machine from Felder. And the same goes for the Italians. Anything less will be a cross-cutting or short-stroke slider. Assuming you want to be able to rip full sheets on the slider, that is. Based on In my experience, pricing between Austrian and Italian brands is very close, assuming we are talking apples-to-apples in terms of spec. Anytime a person sees a new full-sized slider for less than $10K, that machine will be East Asian in origin. Hope this helps,

Erik

Hi Erik, I'll try to sign up so I can have access to PMs cause I'd love to have a conversation. Thanks.

[Jeff Geltz]

So I'll try to relay my experience without mentioning any vendor names so as to keep the parties innocent.

After many years of owning a beefy cabinet saw painted in gold with an aftermarket bolt on slider I decided to buy a proper slider as part of a geographic move. I was lucky enough to find a pampered used one that was in a hobby shop vs a production shop and it showed. Not a scratch on it. The prior owner even trucked it half way across the country. Couldn't have been a nicer guy.

The saw had a 10 HP motor and a 10 foot slider with both the saw blade and the fence electronically controlled through a screen. The saw was gorgeous to behold and use. Only trouble was that about a couple of months after I owned it the screen developed issues to the point where it was unresponsive. My dream saw was now a 2,000 pound boat anchor. Fortunately the manufacturer's support team was quite responsive but the solution was hard to swallow. New parts were needed - a new voltage converter in the machine itself, a new board in the machine, plus an entirely new CPU/display unit, and all of this had to be installed by one of their techs or no warranty. The estimate was $6,500 all-in for parts, labor and expenses. After several weeks of agonizing and looking at various new saw options I finally pulled the trigger on the repairs. That was several years ago and the saw has performed flawlessly ever since. Not only is it dreamy to operate but the word has spread about its capabilities and I get referral work from the local lumber yards for milling slabs that no one else would dare attempt to work on.

Here's the point of the story. In my mind there is no way I could go back to a cabinet saw given what the slider has allowed me to accomplish. As to slider selection, one of the biggest decisions to keep in mind is the level of automation you opt for. There is no question that the screen allows a level of not only accuracy but repeatability that manual fence and blade adjustments simply can't touch. The downside is that the technology in a saw gets dated over time. Years down the road if you are lucky - the manufacturer is still in business and luckier still they can source parts to replace your now dated model of their machine that by then is no longer manufactured.

Clearly the way to avoid the issues I ran into is to buy a saw without all of the electronic bells and whistles. Having gone through hell and back with them - in retrospect I would opt for the electronic options again given what they allow me to do.

Good luck in your decision.

[Kevin Jenness]

So I'll try to relay my experience without mentioning any vendor names so as to keep the parties innocent.

After many years of owning a beefy cabinet saw painted in gold with an aftermarket bolt on slider I decided to buy a proper slider as part of a geographic move. I was lucky enough to find a pampered used one that was in a hobby shop vs a production shop and it showed. Not a scratch on it. The prior owner even trucked it half way across the country. Couldn't have been a nicer guy.

The saw had a 10 HP motor and a 10 foot slider with both the saw blade and the fence electronically controlled through a screen. The saw was gorgeous to behold and use. Only trouble was that about a couple of months after I owned it the screen developed issues to the point where it was unresponsive. My dream saw was now a 2,000 pound boat anchor. Fortunately the manufacturer's support team was quite responsive but the solution was hard to swallow. New parts were needed - a new voltage converter in the machine itself, a new board in the machine, plus an entirely new CPU/display unit, and all of this had to be installed by one of their techs or no warranty. The estimate was $6,500 all-in for parts, labor and expenses. After several weeks of agonizing and looking at various new saw options I finally pulled the trigger on the repairs. That was several years ago and the saw has performed flawlessly ever since. Not only is it dreamy to operate but the word has spread about its capabilities and I get referral work from the local lumber yards for milling slabs that no one else would dare attempt to work on.

Here's the point of the story. In my mind there is no way I could go back to a cabinet saw given what the slider has allowed me to accomplish. As to slider selection, one of the biggest decisions to keep in mind is the level of automation you opt for. There is no question that the screen allows a level of not only accuracy but repeatability that manual fence and blade adjustments simply can't touch. The downside is that the technology in a saw gets dated over time. Years down the road if you are lucky - the manufacturer is still in business and luckier still they can source parts to replace your now dated model of their machine that by then is no longer manufactured.

Clearly the way to avoid the issues I ran into is to buy a saw without all of the electronic bells and whistles. Having gone through hell and back with them - in retrospect I would opt for the electronic options again given what they allow me to do.

Good luck in your decision.

Names would actually be helpful, but the principle is well explained without. I fall on the other side of the automation divide, and would prefer to have a machine that will do the basics without proprietary electronics to fail, but I understand your choice. It would be more difficult to justify for most hobbyists who are not producing work under time constraints.

There is a Kolle slider for sale near me which I am sure is an excellent machine, but I know the shop is swapping it out due to fear of it becoming a boat anchor when the circuit board fails with Kolle unable to provide parts. The same issue holds true for mechanical parts from suppliers who are here today and gone tomorrow. Martin. Altendorf, SCMI and Felder may not last forever, but they have been around a long time and have a proven track record. That is not necessarily true of the anonymous Chaiwanese factories making sliders for Noth American importers.

[Patrick Kane]

Names would actually be helpful, but the principle is well explained without. I fall on the other side of the automation divide, and would prefer to have a machine that will do the basics without proprietary electronics to fail, but I understand your choice. It would be more difficult to justify for most hobbyists who are not producing work under time constraints.

There is a Kolle slider for sale near me which I am sure is an excellent machine, but I know the shop is swapping it out due to fear of it becoming a boat anchor when the circuit board fails with Kolle unable to provide parts. The same issue holds true for mechanical parts from suppliers who are here today and gone tomorrow. Martin. Altendorf, SCMI and Felder may not last forever, but they have been around a long time and have a proven track record. That is not necessarily true of the anonymous Chaiwanese factories making sliders for Noth American importers.

The price of the repair and the level of support would lead me to believe Jeff's saw is a certain color blue. All reasons why i really want a 1999-2001 martin t72a WITHOUT the electronics. There were just a number of T73's and T72As for sale in the northeast for right around $10k, but they all were electronic controls. Spending $10k on a saw followed by an immediate $6500 would really sour me. Ive read enough messages on woodweb to stay as far away from 2000-2008 martin electronics as humanly possible.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

So I'll try to relay my experience without mentioning any vendor names so as to keep the parties innocent.

After many years of owning a beefy cabinet saw painted in gold with an aftermarket bolt on slider I decided to buy a proper slider as part of a geographic move. I was lucky enough to find a pampered used one that was in a hobby shop vs a production shop and it showed. Not a scratch on it. The prior owner even trucked it half way across the country. Couldn't have been a nicer guy.

The saw had a 10 HP motor and a 10 foot slider with both the saw blade and the fence electronically controlled through a screen. The saw was gorgeous to behold and use. Only trouble was that about a couple of months after I owned it the screen developed issues to the point where it was unresponsive. My dream saw was now a 2,000 pound boat anchor. Fortunately the manufacturer's support team was quite responsive but the solution was hard to swallow. New parts were needed - a new voltage converter in the machine itself, a new board in the machine, plus an entirely new CPU/display unit, and all of this had to be installed by one of their techs or no warranty. The estimate was $6,500 all-in for parts, labor and expenses. After several weeks of agonizing and looking at various new saw options I finally pulled the trigger on the repairs. That was several years ago and the saw has performed flawlessly ever since. Not only is it dreamy to operate but the word has spread about its capabilities and I get referral work from the local lumber yards for milling slabs that no one else would dare attempt to work on.

Here's the point of the story. In my mind there is no way I could go back to a cabinet saw given what the slider has allowed me to accomplish. As to slider selection, one of the biggest decisions to keep in mind is the level of automation you opt for. There is no question that the screen allows a level of not only accuracy but repeatability that manual fence and blade adjustments simply can't touch. The downside is that the technology in a saw gets dated over time. Years down the road if you are lucky - the manufacturer is still in business and luckier still they can source parts to replace your now dated model of their machine that by then is no longer manufactured.

Clearly the way to avoid the issues I ran into is to buy a saw without all of the electronic bells and whistles. Having gone through hell and back with them - in retrospect I would opt for the electronic options again given what they allow me to do.

Good luck in your decision.


Thanks Jeff, sounds like you had a relatively good experience in the end.

Totally your choice, but forums like these are IMO meant to call out both the good and bad for the manufactures....it's a path towards progress for most industries.....

For me, all the gizmos are not in my budget (certainly for a new machine and even most of those used that I see with them) The only thing that is on my wishlist in terms of that would be DRO on the fences if possible. I have been using an INCRA fence on my saw for quite a long time and it has required minimal maintenance (even after a move). I can dial in to the 1/32 much fast that I could probably type those numbers into an automated machine and if I need to (which for woodworking is hardly ever with the exception of fitting a friction fit piece) I can dial to 1/100th. It's not to say the fence doesn't have it's shortcomings, it does....some of which make no sense to me honestly. I have the 50" model, but you still can only set it up to do a max 32" cut. So it's not really a 50, that's my biggest issue. Well, technically you can make those cuts but you have to move the entire carriage each time and likewise no one has time for that. There are some other things it could do better, and honestly some of them those with patience could probably figure out great solutions for with custom jigs and brackets....but regardless I have been extremely happy with this fence. My issue is that I am going to step up to a saw that's 2-3x the cost of what originally paid new for this equipment and I am going to lose accuracy and repeatability....to me that's not acceptable and I have to figure out a way to make it happen. DROs seem the best solution, but depending on the machine I have seen some people even retro fit their INCRA systems in various ways....

Thanks again for the input though...USED scares me but I like the savings potential....it's like buying a used car....you can get the car you couldn't afford new but it MIGHT have issues.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

The price of the repair and the level of support would lead me to believe Jeff's saw is a certain color blue. All reasons why i really want a 1999-2001 martin t72a WITHOUT the electronics. There were just a number of T73's and T72As for sale in the northeast for right around $10k, but they all were electronic controls. Spending $10k on a saw followed by an immediate $6500 would really sour me. Ive read enough messages on woodweb to stay as far away from 2000-2008 martin electronics as humanly possible.

Patrick, where did you see these Martins for 10k??? I have only seen one recently that's listed in Brooklyn, but quite an old machine and definitely not automated. I'm just curious because they're all 3 phase I'm sure and I probably want to stick to single but if the right machine came along I would look into a phase perfect (which I have yet to totally understand).

[Jeff Geltz]

Thanks again for the input though...USED scares me but I like the savings potential....it's like buying a used car....you can get the car you couldn't afford new but it MIGHT have issues.

I agree with that. I always buy stuff used and sometimes I get a deal and sometimes I get bitten. In this case I got both.

The prior owner shared the original invoice for the saw with me. In addition to that the saw also included upgrades like an air clamping system, extra handles, dado blade system, frame angle system, etc. The price I paid all-in including the repairs was still about a third of just the saw invoice price.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... My dream saw was now a 2,000 pound boat anchor.
... the saw has performed flawlessly ever since.
... the screen allows a level of not only accuracy but repeatability that manual fence and blade adjustments simply can't touch. The downside is that the technology in a saw gets dated over time. Years down the road if you are lucky - the manufacturer is still in business and luckier still they can source parts to replace your now dated model of their machine that by then is no longer manufactured.
...


.... I fall on the other side of the automation divide, and would prefer to have a machine that will do the basics without proprietary electronics to fail, ...


... WITHOUT the electronics. ... all were electronic controls. ....

^ A random capture of key concepts and beliefs in automation and controls. They emphasize that all businesses and most (hobby) owners of electronic equipment need a migration plan.

You probably have a plan for your PC, one for your phone, your tablet, TV, etc. Your plan may be to simply buy a new one when the old breaks, or the service provider subsidizes outright replacement, a Geek Squad visit, or maybe a desktop translator for the FCC mandated analog to digital (TV) signals so you can keep that RCA 25" CRT with 4:3 screen.

Electronics have limited residual value due to the rapid advances in the technology, so buying a new one is most peoples migration 'plan'. Fortunately, price points of so many devices allow this outright replacement. Rarely do we repair electronic devices anymore. And replacement avoids any discussion of obsolescence.

What do you do when the electronics are part of a larger whole...?

Why not have such a migration plan for your saw - - other than the long held belief (habit?) that saws don't need a electronic migration plan? Or, as implied by Mr. Kane's example, do the owners bail on the entire machine - just for a bad motor, switch, or even just a diode. (My brother is not technically inclined. Not even a little. He watched a 'tube presentation, ordered 3 surface mount capacitors smaller than a grain of rice, and fixed his TV. He spent $20 and 30-40 minutes, rather than a new $1500 TV.)

When does the residual value of the mechanical system, justify repairs and/or replacement of the controls? Bad main blade motor on a slider? Replace it, or junk the saw?
Who bails on a $50k CNC router or $500k 6-axis machining center when a servo motor fails? Motor not made anymore? Adapt a new one. Drive is bad? New generation drive and motor to match. New drive won't interface to the controller? Get a new controller. Maybe it's time to start over with a fresh control system? Hire a System Integrator to design/build/program a new system - - or adapt the entire kit from a new saw. I think we often limit ourselves to electronics we can DIY-repair, not what is possible.

If by some chance - - big stretch - - I end up with a 3-axis motorized sliding table saw and the controls (someday) go bad, my plan will be to break the proprietary technology barrier. The OEM wants to handcuff owners of their products to the OEM's parts department with custom compiled code, IC boards, displays, - and presumably servos/drives/etc. (I've not looked under this hood yet). I am fortunate to have that skill set, using common off-the-shelf parts available to anyone.

In a previous life, I was integral to the planning and execution of a control migration for a manufacturer of a food product for a major retail chain. The mechanical systems in one production line cost more than my neighborhood. Long story short, they doubled production, ROI was about 3 weeks, and they were BIG happy!!:D:D:D Might work for a slider , too?

[Phillip Mitchell]

Problem is most of the rest of us are woodworkers and not electrical engineers. I can say that I have a fairly low tolerance for electronics related troubleshooting based on both limited knowledge, desire to learn it, and the $ lost from downtime of a failure. Give me a manual machine with only electronics that can be overridden by manual control in event of a failure every day.

[Patrick Kane]

Patrick, where did you see these Martins for 10k??? I have only seen one recently that's listed in Brooklyn, but quite an old machine and definitely not automated. I'm just curious because they're all 3 phase I'm sure and I probably want to stick to single but if the right machine came along I would look into a phase perfect (which I have yet to totally understand).

Yeah, i dont think Martin ever made/makes a single phase machine. I went back and looked, they are either sold or no longer listed. They were on craigslist/facebook marketplace/woodweb and double listed. One was in Rochester or Syracuse, i think this was the T72a with hydraulic blade adjustment and automated rip fence for $10,000. The other one was in long island and it was a fully automated T73. That one might have been listed for $13,000. There is a T71 in long island for $5500. That is a solid manual saw. Theres a T72 in Cincinnati for $4,000 if you fancy a drive. There is also Paul Grothause's 12' T72a, which i will probably buy in 3 years when i have a new house and he accepts half his asking price. I think hes had it listed for 48+ months straight.

Did you look into the SCMI Si360N I mentioned before? Its in Monticello, NY for $6,000

[Jeff Geltz]

^ A random capture of key concepts and beliefs in automation and controls. They emphasize that all businesses and most (hobby) owners of electronic equipment need a migration plan.

You probably have a plan for your PC, one for your phone, your tablet, TV, etc. Your plan may be to simply buy a new one when the old breaks, or the service provider subsidizes outright replacement, a Geek Squad visit, or maybe a desktop translator for the FCC mandated analog to digital (TV) signals so you can keep that RCA 25" CRT with 4:3 screen.

Electronics have limited residual value due to the rapid advances in the technology, so buying a new one is most peoples migration 'plan'. Fortunately, price points of so many devices allow this outright replacement. Rarely do we repair electronic devices anymore. And replacement avoids any discussion of obsolescence.

What do you do when the electronics are part of a larger whole...?

Why not have such a migration plan for your saw - - other than the long held belief (habit?) that saws don't need a electronic migration plan? Or, as implied by Mr. Kane's example, do the owners bail on the entire machine - just for a bad motor, switch, or even just a diode. (My brother is not technically inclined. Not even a little. He watched a 'tube presentation, ordered 3 surface mount capacitors smaller than a grain of rice, and fixed his TV. He spent $20 and 30-40 minutes, rather than a new $1500 TV.)

When does the residual value of the mechanical system, justify repairs and/or replacement of the controls? Bad main blade motor on a slider? Replace it, or junk the saw?
Who bails on a $50k CNC router or $500k 6-axis machining center when a servo motor fails? Motor not made anymore? Adapt a new one. Drive is bad? New generation drive and motor to match. New drive won't interface to the controller? Get a new controller. Maybe it's time to start over with a fresh control system? Hire a System Integrator to design/build/program a new system - - or adapt the entire kit from a new saw. I think we often limit ourselves to electronics we can DIY-repair, not what is possible.

If by some chance - - big stretch - - I end up with a 3-axis motorized sliding table saw and the controls (someday) go bad, my plan will be to break the proprietary technology barrier. The OEM wants to handcuff owners of their products to the OEM's parts department with custom compiled code, IC boards, displays, - and presumably servos/drives/etc. (I've not looked under this hood yet). I am fortunate to have that skill set, using common off-the-shelf parts available to anyone.

In a previous life, I was integral to the planning and execution of a control migration for a manufacturer of a food product for a major retail chain. The mechanical systems in one production line cost more than my neighborhood. Long story short, they doubled production, ROI was about 3 weeks, and they were BIG happy!!:D:D:D Might work for a slider , too?


I don't disagree with the premise that you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater but I dare you to try and find a youtube video on fixing one of these tools. You won't. You also won't find new parts on eBay.

It's no different than new cars. There is no longer any tinkering. You either suck it up and buy a new electronic module or junk the car.

That means you are reliant on the vendors to send you replacement parts (if they have them) and that's where the money begins to flow. As a result most people's "migration plan" is to a new machine.

[Patrick Kane]

I found your machine. 1998 altendorf 10’er. Too many decent options out there to buy an ironwood or cantek.

https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/396444135216697/?ref=browse_tab&search_query=Altendorf&tracking=%7B%22qid%22%3A%22-6891677995318018349%22%2C%22mf_story_key%22%3A%224 377749055671526%22%2C%22commerce_rank_obj%22%3A%22 %7B%5C%22target_id%5C%22%3A4377749055671526%2C%5C% 22target_type%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22primary_position%5 C%22%3A-1%2C%5C%22ranking_signature%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22comm erce_channel%5C%22%3A503%2C%5C%22value%5C%22%3A0%7 D%22%7D

[Mark e Kessler]

I found your machine. 1998 altendorf 10’er. Too many decent options out there to buy an ironwood or cantek.

https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/396444135216697/?ref=browse_tab&search_query=Altendorf&tracking=%7B%22qid%22%3A%22-6891677995318018349%22%2C%22mf_story_key%22%3A%224 377749055671526%22%2C%22commerce_rank_obj%22%3A%22 %7B%5C%22target_id%5C%22%3A4377749055671526%2C%5C% 22target_type%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22primary_position%5 C%22%3A-1%2C%5C%22ranking_signature%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22comm erce_channel%5C%22%3A503%2C%5C%22value%5C%22%3A0%7 D%22%7D


Thats a sweet deal, not sure it it has the phenolic guides can’t remember when they stopped using them. It looks like its in good condition and there are ways to check that they phenolic is not worn out by visual and some simple measurements with dial gauges. Most issues with the phenolic are to to using it in a short stroke ALOT…

[Patrick Kane]

Yes, i would definitely confirm that, but i think they changed to hardened steel in 1990-1995.

[Mark e Kessler]

Yes, i would definitely confirm that, but i think they changed to hardened steel in 1990-1995.

man i want that so bad, it was a dream saw that I would have never been able to get back in the day, i would consider selling my new k940 just so i could live the dream, alas to posting was removed.. hey, maybe he bought it?

[Patrick Kane]

He put it back up $2,000 higher than the original listing.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Yeah, i dont think Martin ever made/makes a single phase machine. I went back and looked, they are either sold or no longer listed. They were on craigslist/facebook marketplace/woodweb and double listed. One was in Rochester or Syracuse, i think this was the T72a with hydraulic blade adjustment and automated rip fence for $10,000. The other one was in long island and it was a fully automated T73. That one might have been listed for $13,000. There is a T71 in long island for $5500. That is a solid manual saw. Theres a T72 in Cincinnati for $4,000 if you fancy a drive. There is also Paul Grothause's 12' T72a, which i will probably buy in 3 years when i have a new house and he accepts half his asking price. I think hes had it listed for 48+ months straight.

Did you look into the SCMI Si360N I mentioned before? Its in Monticello, NY for $6,000

I've seen the monticello one....not bad but didn't list much info on it. Might look into it more, but probably a 3 ph machine no?

Where did you see the T71 on Long Island? Can't find that one, the only thing I find up is a Robland z320 which actually sounds interesting....talking to the guy for more info

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I found your machine. 1998 altendorf 10’er. Too many decent options out there to buy an ironwood or cantek.

https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/396444135216697/?ref=browse_tab&search_query=Altendorf&tracking=%7B%22qid%22%3A%22-6891677995318018349%22%2C%22mf_story_key%22%3A%224 377749055671526%22%2C%22commerce_rank_obj%22%3A%22 %7B%5C%22target_id%5C%22%3A4377749055671526%2C%5C% 22target_type%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22primary_position%5 C%22%3A-1%2C%5C%22ranking_signature%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22comm erce_channel%5C%22%3A503%2C%5C%22value%5C%22%3A0%7 D%22%7D

Thanks Patrick, this is actually a nice one it seems, but I think it will go a bit to far into my budget....8k ask (let's say 7500) probably 1500 in rigging and getting it to CT from the midwest and then need to find a convertor probably another 1500 easy then by the time it's up and running another grand somewhere....if I put DRO on it probably another 1k so I'm probably in for about 12. Now that's a fair price I would think, good even, but don't know if I can swing it.

I will consider though thanks for passing it along. I don't use FB marketplace much but maybe I should start looking there too.

[Patrick Kane]

I loathe facebook, and dont use it socially, but it is overtaking craigslist. In my opinion, at least. The martin was on Facebook Marketplace too. The one photo of it is on a forklift, so you know the seller has means of loading. If you get that machine on a drop deck trailer, you should be able to get it off with a pallet jack or two. Shouldn't be as expensive as you are imagining.

.

[Dave Roock]

Some perspective on that 1998 Altendorf machine - has been listed for 20 weeks, seller may be very motivated at this point. I can possibly help anyone looking at it, I can take a visit and check it out - not too far from here & will likely be going close by there soon.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Some perspective on that 1998 Altendorf machine - has been listed for 20 weeks, seller may be very motivated at this point. I can possibly help anyone looking at it, I can take a visit and check it out - not too far from here & will likely be going close by there soon.

You may very well be right, although from what was said above it was listed for 6 and now back to 8. Regardless....my big issue is that I'd have to figure out the 3 phase before I could even think about it. Does anyone know if you need to change your panel in order to install a phase perfect? And is an electrician needed to do that as well or is it a relatively straight forward operation. If I were to use one I would probably just want to run that just for the saw, and not try to put all the other single phase stuff on there as well.

[Mark e Kessler]

You may very well be right, although from what was said above it was listed for 6 and now back to 8. Regardless....my big issue is that I'd have to figure out the 3 phase before I could even think about it. Does anyone know if you need to change your panel in order to install a phase perfect? And is an electrician needed to do that as well or is it a relatively straight forward operation. If I were to use one I would probably just want to run that just for the saw, and not try to put all the other single phase stuff on there as well.


If you know the basics of residential electrical wiring the PP is simple, mine is a 10hp rated at max output 36 amps so it’s gona pull 72 amps max single phase. I sized the wire from single phase panel to PP for 80a so 4g wire then from the PP 3ph output to machines i ran 8g from a breaker box in conduit to run the machines, the 8g is overkill but you don’t need to make a home run to a breaker for each machine , you can easily run up to 36a on that 8g without issue, btw, the pp can actually run a little more than 10hp and they can tale an inrush of a 150a for 4 sec before it will trip.

I have mine in the space above the garage, i fed the single phase to the panel in the shop so i can turn it on off in the shop then the 3p from the PP come back down into the shop through conduit to a twist lock for the saw and can tie into the wire for other machines as needed.

473750473751

[Kevin Jenness]

I have a subpanel for 3 phase distribution to several machines. Breaker in the service panel supplies single phase to the static converter that starts up a 10hp 3 phase motor, that connects to the subpanel. I have about $500 in parts (starter panel from WNY, used motor and subpanel plus cable). I set up the converter for my slider, since then I have added a 3 phase planer and compressor. I should have done it 35 years ago when I built my shop. There are a lot of old 3 phase machines out there that are a good value if you can power them. Phase Perfect is preferable for machines with sophisticated electronic controls, but for a slider with peripheral dros a rotary converter will work fine.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

If you know the basics of residential electrical wiring the PP is simple, mine is a 10hp rated at max output 36 amps so it’s gona pull 72 amps max single phase. I sized the wire from single phase panel to PP for 80a so 4g wire then from the PP 3ph output to machines i ran 8g from a breaker box in conduit to run the machines, the 8g is overkill but you don’t need to make a home run to a breaker for each machine , you can easily run up to 36a on that 8g without issue, btw, the pp can actually run a little more than 10hp and they can tale an inrush of a 150a for 4 sec before it will trip.

I have mine in the space above the garage, i fed the single phase to the panel in the shop so i can turn it on off in the shop then the 3p from the PP come back down into the shop through conduit to a twist lock for the saw and can tie into the wire for other machines as needed.

473750473751


I have a subpanel for 3 phase distribution to several machines. Breaker in the service panel supplies single phase to the static converter that starts up a 10hp 3 phase motor, that connects to the subpanel. I have about $500 in parts (starter panel from WNY, used motor and subpanel plus cable). I set up the converter for my slider, since then I have added a 3 phase planer and compressor. I should have done it 35 years ago when I built my shop. There are a lot of old 3 phase machines out there that are a good value if you can power them. Phase Perfect is preferable for machines with sophisticated electronic controls, but for a slider with peripheral dros a rotary converter will work fine.

Sounds like I might have to do additional work then....I have a 60a sub panel in my shop off the 200 main. I wanted 100 but my electrician for whatever reason convinced me this was enough for what I had....maybe he just had a panel to use....regardless even if I get a 5-7.5 hp saw, it might very well require all the juice the sub has....I only have a basic understanding of this stuff but can learn quick

[Kendall Scheier]

Sounds like I might have to do additional work then....I have a 60a sub panel in my shop off the 200 main. I wanted 100 but my electrician for whatever reason convinced me this was enough for what I had....maybe he just had a panel to use....regardless even if I get a 5-7.5 hp saw, it might very well require all the juice the sub has....I only have a basic understanding of this stuff but can learn quick

If you go the phase converter route you will have to worry about extra amperage I think, but my 5hp 220v single phase saw only needs a 30 amp circuit

[Bryan Hunt]

Hey Kurt, I own a Hammer K4. If you have any questions about that specific saw, I'm happy to help.

[Mark e Kessler]

Sounds like I might have to do additional work then....I have a 60a sub panel in my shop off the 200 main. I wanted 100 but my electrician for whatever reason convinced me this was enough for what I had....maybe he just had a panel to use....regardless even if I get a 5-7.5 hp saw, it might very well require all the juice the sub has....I only have a basic understanding of this stuff but can learn quick


Maybe, I have the ability to run 100a but at the time I only had a 60a breaker and just never changed it because I don’t have issues, i can run a single phase 3hp cyclone, 16” j/p, mm16 bandsaw, 7.5hp 3p saw, all the lights at the same time and the air compressor can kick on and I don’t have issues. A lot of this stuff pulls pretty low amperage when running and the planer jointer under load would probably pull the most amps and maybe the saw ripping 3” wet oak.

If you were to start all of it once you would probably have issues and if you were planing 16” maple, ripping 3” maple, resawing with the bandsaw 12” Maple then you might have an issue - but you won’t, your a one man shop.

Also with the PP, the reason i put it up in the attic is that it makes a slight buzzing/crackling sound kind like frying bacon. It’s not terrible and some can’t even hear it. I don’t know how loud a rotary is but it’s basically a motor that is running the whole time it is on and double the size the output (10hp 3p = 20hp motor.

If I hadn’t come across the used PP I was going to go with American rotary, they are pretty good units that have good balance for a rotary, stay away from a Kay industry rotary from what i have researched and herd from users the wild leg is exactly that, wild

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hey Kurt, I own a Hammer K4. If you have any questions about that specific saw, I'm happy to help.

Yes Bryan, would love to chat about it, you're actually the first person I've heard who has one! I'll shoot you a message.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Maybe, I have the ability to run 100a but at the time I only had a 60a breaker and just never changed it because I don’t have issues, i can run a single phase 3hp cyclone, 16” j/p, mm16 bandsaw, 7.5hp 3p saw, all the lights at the same time and the air compressor can kick on and I don’t have issues. A lot of this stuff pulls pretty low amperage when running and the planer jointer under load would probably pull the most amps and maybe the saw ripping 3” wet oak.

If you were to start all of it once you would probably have issues and if you were planing 16” maple, ripping 3” maple, resawing with the bandsaw 12” Maple then you might have an issue - but you won’t, your a one man shop.

Also with the PP, the reason i put it up in the attic is that it makes a slight buzzing/crackling sound kind like frying bacon. It’s not terrible and some can’t even hear it. I don’t know how loud a rotary is but it’s basically a motor that is running the whole time it is on and double the size the output (10hp 3p = 20hp motor.

If I hadn’t come across the used PP I was going to go with American rotary, they are pretty good units that have good balance for a rotary, stay away from a Kay industry rotary from what i have researched and herd from users the wild leg is exactly that, wild

I think I should give pp a call to see what they would suggest and get some ideas... I'm more concerned about having to take away from my saw budget to accommodate electric but it does it open a lot more on the used front.

[Mark e Kessler]

I think I should give pp a call to see what they would suggest and get some ideas... I'm more concerned about having to take away from my saw budget to accommodate electric but it does it open a lot more on the used front.

Everything is better 3p, you need to look at the Phase converter as just another piece of ww equipment. Once you get it installed and start buying/using 3p equipment you will forget that it even cost anything. It may seem like you are taking money from your saw budget but not really because you will be able to pickup a used 3p saw/equipment that will outperform any new single phase machine that is in your budget.

You don’t need to do it all at the same time, once you commit to going three phase get that sorted whether it’s a PP or Rotary and get it installed that way when the right saw comes along you can snap it up. I am partial to PP and would do nothing different as it is superior and not much more than Rotary when found used but rotary works and has for a long time so if you have decision paralysis on that just go with what you are comfortable with so you can get moving on it.

I always had a mix of 3p and 1p when I had my business but the buildings I was in had 3p so I didn’t have to deal with conversion, I too was hesitant to deal with 3p conversion for my hobby shop until a few years ago and also looked at it as an extra expense and could use the money to buy something else but now that it is installed I don’t even think of the cost, more like all the inexpensive industrial equipment i could get for low dollar. I have been wanting a wide belt sander forever but the only one I could really get would be a northstate open end, i know folks that have them and they are ok but i really don’t like the idea of it.

A month ago i was real close to buying one because i do not have the space for a 37” and then a scmi 24” 3p popped up at less than half the cost of the north state delivered, that sander even at 20yrs old will do laps around an open belt, i called them up and pulled my CC out, if i had not had the converter installed already I don’t know if i would have jumped on it because of the hurdle of the additional expense and to get the converter installed. That’s why earlier I mentioned to make a decision on the 3p if you decide thats the way to go get it installed then continue the search for equipment that way it won’t seem like an added expense or more money you need to come up with (even though it was, lol)

[Dave Roock]

I am going to try to take a look at that 1998 Altendorf machine this week, I will report on what I see/find out. Looks like it is very good condition - seller trying or planning to sell building it is located in.

[Patrick Kane]

Everything is better 3p, you need to look at the Phase converter as just another piece of ww equipment. Once you get it installed and start buying/using 3p equipment you will forget that it even cost anything. It may seem like you are taking money from your saw budget but not really because you will be able to pickup a used 3p saw/equipment that will outperform any new single phase machine that is in your budget.


I agree with Mark, again. If I were to do it all over again, i would go with a converter and all used 3 phase machines from the getgo. At a certain point, you are limited in quality/capacity of the machine by not having 3 phase. For example, you can buy a Felder 700 series in single phase, but im pretty sure you cant buy a single phase 900 series or format4 machine. Martin doesnt make single phase machines. Not to say a Felder 700 is garbage and you cant work with it(i own one, i like it), but those other machines are better. You can buy a 12-16" jointer in single phase, but i cant say ive ever seen a 20" machine in single phase. I personally have an issue with my limitations to upgrade my planer. I have a single phase powermatic 209hh. Its OK and planes wood, but i would much rather have a SCM 24" planer or similar. Other than a 22" import 2 post machine, i kinda cant upgrade my planer while sticking with single phase. Unlike my jointer and table saw, i cant easily convert most 3 phase planers because they are too complex--cutterhead motor, feed motor, typically bed raise/lower motor. I was a dummy and did VFDs for the other 3 machines, because it was convenient and cheap at the time. If this saw is your final tool purchase/upgrade, then maybe power conversion isnt for you, and then you should get a new single phase saw. However, if you see yourself upgrading other tools, then its worth it to bite the bullet up front.

Dave, let us know how you fair. If you buy it, you can send me a finder's fee : ) I suppose the seller should be the one to pay me, i just marketed his machine to a few hundred folks here.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I agree with Mark, again. If I were to do it all over again, i would go with a converter and all used 3 phase machines from the getgo. At a certain point, you are limited in quality/capacity of the machine by not having 3 phase. For example, you can buy a Felder 700 series in single phase, but im pretty sure you cant buy a single phase 900 series or format4 machine. Martin doesnt make single phase machines. Not to say a Felder 700 is garbage and you cant work with it(i own one, i like it), but those other machines are better. You can buy a 12-16" jointer in single phase, but i cant say ive ever seen a 20" machine in single phase. I personally have an issue with my limitations to upgrade my planer. I have a single phase powermatic 209hh. Its OK and planes wood, but i would much rather have a SCM 24" planer or similar. Other than a 22" import 2 post machine, i kinda cant upgrade my planer while sticking with single phase. Unlike my jointer and table saw, i cant easily convert most 3 phase planers because they are too complex--cutterhead motor, feed motor, typically bed raise/lower motor. I was a dummy and did VFDs for the other 3 machines, because it was convenient and cheap at the time. If this saw is your final tool purchase/upgrade, then maybe power conversion isnt for you, and then you should get a new single phase saw. However, if you see yourself upgrading other tools, then its worth it to bite the bullet up front.

Dave, let us know how you fair. If you buy it, you can send me a finder's fee : ) I suppose the seller should be the one to pay me, i just marketed his machine to a few hundred folks here.

Hi Patrick, right now I can't see in my future adding any other 3ph equipment to this shop....if I get to a point of expansion then I would be in another location and that might be a different story. I have no room for a wide belt and if I do get a CNC it will most likely start relatively small and be single so this is the only piece for now. That said, I'm not opposed to using a convertor if it all makes sense.

One question...you make a point that I agree with but can't really put my finger on....you said something like "those machines are better"....I've used a 700 also, what actually makes a martin or f45 or format 4 "Better" outside of the offerings of automation...because if the saw is accurate, has enough power, and slides nicely...I can't really put my finger on what better really means, although I have a similar sentiment. Thoughts?

[Paul J Kelly]

Kurt,

Patrick, I do not mean to abduct the conversation...

This is what I see/Feel

Chassis is more substantial and reduces vibration - smoother cut, better longevity, better support for the slider and outrigger and allows for smoother operation overall.
The saw aggregate is more substantial as you move up in size and HP. They are stronger and move more smoothly.
The outrigger has more possible options on the higher end larger machines
They pay more attention on how smoothly the machine functions.
The 3ph motors are butter smooth and manage start up current with star-delta start up. A large single phase motor cannot.


I am sure there is more...

PK

[Patrick Kane]

I havent used an Altendorf or newer Martin, so i am not the guy you want to compare and contrast builds. However, here are some minor critiques of the Felder KF700 I own that i assume are not an issue on higher class machines. The flip stop on the cross cut fence is slightly out of square. Ive seen this on the FOG, so its not just my machine. You kinda have to tap it here and there with a hammer to get it as close to square as possible. This really only comes into play on parts that are over 1.5-2" tall. Minor stuff, but it can mean your off 1/64" on some parts. Also, you need to be ginger af with bumping into that flag. You will definitely mess that up if you are bumping 3/4" stock into it on a regular basis. You would laugh if you saw how careful i treat that stop. The table is very smooth, but if you put a 3/4" sheet of ply on the table and outrigger, it flexes an uncomfortable amount. See my prior comment about the flip stop. Putting large workpieces on the machine is a very delicate dance for me with a FAT300. The rip fence leaves a lot to be desired on ergonomics and feel, but it seems to hold its settings, so no big deal. Finally, the machine is not very large, so you need auxiliary support when cutting large pieces. It is an excellent machine for me from a furniture making perspective. Crosscuting parts to later be dominoed was a gamechanger for me as far as speed and accuracy of the final product. I used to make fairly large end grain island tops/cutting boards, and the machine was a dream for those. All of the 3-5" thick crosscuts were so accurate to one another that it saved me hours and hours of final sanding of the end grain surface. My last project was a 8' built in for my home office, and this is where the build of the 700 seems a little light. As i said, a full sheet of 3/4" will drop the end of the crosscut extrusion and outrigger by 1/4"-1/2". I had a vintage Martin t75, and for a laugh i sat on the sliding table and went for a ride at full extents. It didnt do much at all and im about 195lbs. I would never do that to the Felder. Same for the Martin t17 thats in my garage right now. It isnt as refined as the Felder, but it really makes you realize the value engineering that went into the 700 to meet a price point. Finally, i am friendly with a few pro shop owners locally and ive messed around with 90-2000s SCMI saws. You come away with an understanding how the Felder 700 is for well-heeled hobbyists or light duty furniture makers and the Martins, SCM, Altendorfs are made for shops with employees putting out a fair amount of product each year. I do think you would be really pleased with a machine in the class of a Felder 700, but that is because you seem to work on medium size pieces, you dont have employees, and you will most likely baby that machine. My machine has held its settings very well for 4-5 years of light use. I also treat it like like my 6 week old daughter.

Its all a matter of build quality. If you arent pushing a machine to its limits, then great build quality isnt too important to you. For example, i dont think a Martin t75 preX is any better at making kumiko than a Felder 500, but you better believe its the better cabinet/architectural millwork machine. Its also made to live in a harsher setting and hold its tolerances for longer. The good news is just about any machine discussed in this thread will be an eye-opening experience coming from the jet cabinet saw.

[Erik Loza]

The machine I sell the most of to 1-3 man cabinet shops is the K500S. And they overwhelmingly love it. People talk about how you need this or that level of slider for professional use. I'm in shops all day long and 90% of them are doing it all on a regular cabinet saw (or nesting router). Sure, hardcore millwork requires larger equipment but if all you're doing is cutting sheet goods and 5/4-ish solid lumber, you really don't need much more than the most basic (albeit well-built) slider. A K500S or K700S will handle all that. Anything more for hobby shops is just a shiny object.

Erik

[Mark e Kessler]

I think Erik makes a good point, the k500 is probably close to your budget and you can avoid an asian saw just know its Hammer saw unit with the xroll (a Honda with a Mercedes accessory), get it single phase so you can sell it easy if you outgrow it or want to step up your game.


Have to say though I do like shiny objects, and as you move up in build quality more shiny stuff that increases your efficiency is available

[Erik Loza]

Mark, just to clarify: The K500S uses a true double-hung trunion saw unit with the Easy-Glide ways. Not as beefy as a 700-series but the design is identical, just scaled down. Same with the Hammer K4 perform. It's the Hammer K3's that use a more hobby-oriented pillow block design.

Erik

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[Mark e Kessler]

ahh, thanks for the clarification. Is that a recent change in the past few years? I thought the saw unit was identical to the Hammer.

What kinda hours of use per day in a professional before you would want to step up to the 700, is there another metric like number of employees before you would recommend stepping up? Always curious about these kind of things, id imagine with the step up to the xroll it widens the gap on when to step up.


Mark, just to clarify: The K500S uses a true double-hung trunion saw unit with the Easy-Glide ways. Not as beefy as a 700-series but the design is identical, just scaled down. Same with the Hammer K4 perform. It's the Hammer K3's that use a more hobby-oriented pillow block design.

Erik

474371

[Erik Loza]

Mark, that's a very good question as far as duty cycle. On a K500S, I would say 3-4 hours a day, assuming they maintain it well. The key thing with these smaller sliders is that the guys treat the machine carefully. The K500's outrigger and crosscut fence are the smallest in the range, so if guys are abusive or don't give a crap about the owner's equipment (common, unfortunately), then it will obviously shorten machine life. On a K700S and K940S, I would say the same for duty cycle except that those machines will obviously handle more abuse. If it's at all multiple operators, a full shift a day, or any sort of architectural millwork involving large lumber, they need to step up to a Kappa 400. Given how much ongoing maintenance a lot of other shop machines require just to keep them operating properly (edgebanders for example) it always sort of amazes me how even a basic little slider keeps chugging away.

Erik

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Guys these last few posts are really some of the best info and opinions so far...appreciate all the info. Now I have to figure out pricing. I'm still going to consider used machines as well but only if they seem like a great deal. It seems like you have to go 20 years back to get something reasonably priced and that brings into question how much work will it need so it's an interesting game for sure. Thanks again, and really appreciate some of the further insight of the differences in some of the Felder equipment.

[Mark e Kessler]

There is a k700s in mass, 2008 but brand new never used $9500… go get it, Looks to be 3p though…

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=474925&d=1646142153&thumb=1 (https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=474925&d=1646142153)

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Thanks Mark, I've seen that one and spoke with them...it's an interesting one but I think it's a bit over priced even though it looks new. But still in consideration.

[Kevin Jenness]

There's a Paoloni 320 on Woodweb near Danbury - might be worth a look.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

There's a Paoloni 320 on Woodweb near Danbury - might be worth a look.

Saw that one, nice machine, but little older than I'd like. Have a line on a few others that are at auction that are seemingly really good, but auctions scare me, never did it before and don't know how difficult it would be to arrange getting it shipped not to mention not being able to see/test in person. Also looking at 3 machines withing driving distance that have potential, but all have some issues which will be difficult for me to get sorted quickly....I dunno PIA lol

[Alan Lightstone]

For anyone who cares, from a supplier's viewpoint:

-If at all possible, PICK UP YOUR MACHINE AT A LOCAL TERMINAL. This alone will mitigate the possibility of freight damage or at the very least, de-burden you of having to deal with it should hidden damage occur. The responsibility of solving the freight claim will rest on the shoulders of he/she who is in possession of the machine.

-No matter what a supplier tells you, be prepared to tackle logistical challenges on the delivery side. Have pallet jacks, tools, extra lumber, and unwilling friends/neighbors/children to help with this process. If anyone has it in their mind that "such-and-such vendor" will do a better job of delivery, they are mistaken. No matter who you purchase from, we are all beholden to the same (not large) pool of LTL carriers to get equipment from point-a to point-b.

-This is the trailer (https://www.jlg.com/en-in/equipment/drop-deck-trailers/utility-trailers/ut410-utility-trailer) we have been recommending to customers lately. Most Sunbelts can offer them.

Hope this helps,

Erik

I had my Felder machines delivered to a local terminal and riggers were easily arranged to transport the gear to my workshop, lift it up onto my raised access floor, and get it perfectly in place. They did everything and were great. And were not difficult to arrange, and this is residential.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I had my Felder machines delivered to a local terminal and riggers were easily arranged to transport the gear to my workshop, lift it up onto my raised access floor, and get it perfectly in place. They did everything and were great. And were not difficult to arrange, and this is residential.

Alan, if you wouldn't mind, shoot me a pm or you can o just here if you think people are interested... can you give me an example of how you searched and got riggers and I'm assuming they were movers too.... if I buy a machine at auction 1000 miles away they often need you to arrange pickup in a day or 2 which is probably quite difficult... or even local it might need to be fast. And what sort of $ did it run you? Thanks much appreciated.

[Alan Lightstone]

Alan, if you wouldn't mind, shoot me a pm or you can o just here if you think people are interested... can you give me an example of how you searched and got riggers and I'm assuming they were movers too.... if I buy a machine at auction 1000 miles away they often need you to arrange pickup in a day or 2 which is probably quite difficult... or even local it might need to be fast. And what sort of $ did it run you? Thanks much appreciated.

I think I just Googled "Machine Riggers Near Me". The company I used popped right up when I just tried that.

Now this was prior to the plague, so I really don't know if that has changed things dramatically. They are Tampa based, so don't think my local company would help you, but they were professional, brought all the equipment safely to my house on their pallets, removed them from their crates, moved them onto the floor of the workshop with forklifts, then narrow pallet jacks to maneuver them , and lowered them in place. Very professional, and I would use them again in a heartbeat.

[Kevin Jenness]

I would caution you to be wary of online auctions. Buying used machinery without inspection is a gamble, don't risk more than you can afford to lose. Auctions sometimes have a rigger on site which you are required to use on that end, and can be expensive. Caveat emptor. The plus side of riggers is that they are skilled, experienced and insured.

[Mark e Kessler]

The plus side of riggers is that they are skilled, experienced and insured.

Sometimes, where i work we use very experienced riggers and a few months ago they tipped over a multimillion dollar machine on its side - had to be sent back to Germany or Japan (can’t remember which) for a complete rebuild…lol but yea I don’t have the stomach for auctions where you can’t fully inspect, I have heard quite a few nightmare stories about machinery max…

[Patrick Kane]

Any decent sized population will have a machinery mover/rigging company. A local group recently bailed me out big time. I called around to half a dozen places at 7am and had one group here at 10:30am to unload a sliding saw with a forklift. It would have been dangerous and required immense effort to get that saw off a gooseneck flatbed trailer with a pallet jack. If you keep the machine on a low trailer or tilt bed, then i think you will surprise yourself with how easy and safe it is to move a 2,000lb machine with a pallet jack. Having done it both ways, ill be calling for the $300 forklift every single time from now on. One last machine moving tip that applies to anything is to never ever never place a machine directly on the ground. This doesnt apply to the machines that were designed to be moved by a pallet jack/forklift, but if your machine's chassis doesnt have a cut out for forks, then its a real chore to pick it up 4" again. It is a game of blocking and a johnson bar over and over again.

Alternatively, you can probably rent a forklift locally and unload it yourself, but its going to be $300+ id imagine. Might end up being the same price to have someone with experience do it as it would to do it yourself.

[Mark e Kessler]

Drop deck trailer is also an option

[Jim Becker]

I actually attempted to get a rigger for my shop move last year...only one of them in my general geographic area even returned my inquiry and they wanted a $4k minimum to show up. The pandemic situation may have been an influence there (no further commentary on that please as the topic is banned for discussion) as little jobs meant higher exposure potential. But regardless of the reason they were not warm and fuzzy about my request at all and it was disappointing. But I absolutely agree that they are one of the best resources for handling large and heavy gear.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I had a similar experience Jim....when I moved shops 2 years ago I tried to find some people and couldn't find anything reasonable...it was only 2 hours away and the cheapest I was able to get at the time was about $1400....largest machine was a regular cabinet saw, so it was rather pricey still I felt.

Regardless, I feel like I am going to have to deal with some of this stuff if I buy any sort of used machine, and now the weight is a much bigger issue. I understand that a well designed machine will have the lift points on a balance point so that a pallet jack can take care of most of the work....my issue is how to get it off a trailer without killing myself. I haven't yet looked into a fork rental, my guess in CT is pricey...and I don't know if they will rent without some sort of operators license or have to use one of theirs which obviously coordinating while a saw is in your driveway is difficult.

I recently came across 4 or 5 machines that all seem to be good for one reason or another (you may have seen my Kolle post) but I hate the thought of having to take care of it myself. When I got my A3-41 they brought it to my place, rolled it up the driveway and left it there because they had no way of taking if off the pallet...I had to go rent a narrow jack just to move it which was a pain in itself...but even moving that off the tall pallet was a precarious situation with a strong helper...getting a 2000lb saw off a 18" high trailer might prove more risky than what it's worth. Not a big deal for folks who do this often, but a little harder for us who don't lol.

[Paul J Kelly]

Kurt,

I recently transported a 2016 Format 4 kappa 400 x-motion (3200mm slider and overhead guard and controls) with a tilt deck trailer from Arizona to California. I took it off the trailer with a pallet jack and my 2, 16 year old sons.

I dare say, it was completely uneventful. In the case of the kappa 400, a drop deck trailer would not have worked as the chassis and the slider footprint would not have fit in the footprint of the drop deck.

The tilt deck lets you roll it right off the deck onto the ground.

PK

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt,

I recently transported a 2016 Format 4 kappa 400 x-motion (3200mm slider and overhead guard and controls) with a tilt deck trailer from Arizona to California. I took it off the trailer with a pallet jack and my 2, 16 year old sons.

I dare say, it was completely uneventful. In the case of the kappa 400, a drop deck trailer would not have worked as the chassis and the slider footprint would not have fit in the footprint of the drop deck.

The tilt deck lets you roll it right off the deck onto the ground.

PK

But the question is how does you stop it from rolling lol....I laugh but seriously I had a he'll of a time stopping my jointer planet just off a ramp built onto the pallet with 2 people.

[Paul J Kelly]

I attached a come along to the back of the trailer and that allowed a slow progression off the trailer.

PK

[Jim Becker]

But the question is how does you stop it from rolling lol....I laugh but seriously I had a he'll of a time stopping my jointer planet just off a ramp built onto the pallet with 2 people.

You use a winch or a come-along to control that process, whether you have a tilt bed trailer or use ramps like I do. I actually bought a winch for my shop move specifically for this, even though it would be rare to use it in the future.

475219

[Patrick Kane]

But the question is how does you stop it from rolling lol....I laugh but seriously I had a he'll of a time stopping my jointer planet just off a ramp built onto the pallet with 2 people.

If the load ever gets out of control, you can always drop it and stop things pretty quickly. This isnt really an option on very steep grades, and that is when you should employ a winch/come along/chainfall etc. Im concerned the jointer planer was an issue, because thats a relatively light and compact machine on a pallet jack. As Paul mentions, anything in the 1500lb range on level pavement with a pallet jack is pretty uneventful. If you keep the load low(dropdeck trailer, tilt trailer, low trailer with 4'+ long ramp) then its somewhat hard to screw up. Typically the horror stories involve liftgates and loads elevated 3-4' off the ground. To tip or dump a full size slider on its side while moving it with a pallet jack would require pre-meditated idiocy. Its just not a tool that is unstable in any sense. By all means, respect the weight of the machine, but dont be intimidated by it. Finally, I also dont know your physical condition. If you are 85, then you probably shouldnt consider doing this yourself.

[Ron Selzer]

getting a 2000lb saw off a 18" high trailer might prove more risky than what it's worth.

in 2017 brought a 15" wide belt sander home in the back of my pickup. Spec. at 990lbs per manual. Local landscaping company unloaded with a skid steer and put in garage for $75, around 1/2 hr 2 men. Took less than two days to get them to stop by with less than a hours notice, a fill in job for them.
About two months later neighbor and a local moving company he worked with moved it into the basement for $250. Yes it set in the garage longer than I wanted, however had to wait until they needed a small fill in job to get that price.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Depends on how you value your time, what you have available to you, how experienced you are moving heavy stuff, and how much money you have to throw at it.

I have moved several WW machines up to 2k # a variety of different ways. Forklift is vastly preferred to any of them when it comes to unloading a truck especially, even a low trailer can have some challenges and take some time to sort out a safe way to unload. Sub forklift for skid steer from a helpful neighbor in my case (on the unload end) but that’s not always around and available.

I have used (3) black iron pipes on trailer deck/plywood across the yard and pallet jacks. Pallet jacks are typically preferred and I’ve made many a homemade wooden ramp with multiple sheets of thicker plywood and wood/timber scraps blocking up the underside of the ramp for the unload. I like at least an 8’ long ramp / hypotenuse on my 6x12 trailer that’s 16” of the ground. I also have a small 4x8 tilt trailer that can be useful for lighter loads and tilts nearly to the ground at the rear. I also have a 1 ton truck with an 8x8 flatbed that’s nearly 4 ft off the ground; I don’t move machines on this truck unless I have some hydraulic help from a neighbor already scheduled on the unload end.

This all works, but takes time to setup and break down and requires some common sense and confidence. A forklift / large skid steer is much preferred, but timing and general thriftiness has led me down the path of DIY with ramps and pipes or a pallet jack most of the time.

Overhead chain hoists / gantry is a great way to go as well, but not an option for me in my current basement shop with 7’ :eek: ceiling height

Honestly, this is a part of the used machinery game unless you have the money budgeted to hire someone or rent a forklift or some other hydraulic assisted solution. It can be a bit of a pain and/or it can just be embraced as part of the process of finding used machines at really good prices and part of what goes along with it. Or you can say “since I saved x amount on this purchase I can afford to get a rental forklift delivered for 2 hours/half a day/whatever” and not get too invested or experienced in the more low tech physical methods of machinery moving.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I’m sure you’ve seen this one - https://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/535011.html

I’d give that a lot of consideration for the price / location.