Making wide, square/perpendicular crosscuts

[Jon Endres]

I saw the very recent thread on assembling cabinet boxes, but I decided that this question necessitated its' own post. I have built cabinets before, my kitchen and several bath vanities, and due to face frame construction, modular design and attached backs, have never had issues keeping the boxes square enough. However, I seem to be having a problem lately with getting the actual parts square, i.e. having two edges perpendicular to each other. I don't really have the capability to crosscut an 8' long, 24" wide sheet of plywood with my table saw, so I make the cuts by marking with a reasonably accurate framing square or a good quality drywall t-square and then crosscutting with my track saw (an older EZ-Smart setup). I am finding that my parts are out of square. By out of square, when I measure diagonals, they could be as much as 1/8" difference between the diagonals, which is way too much for me. I would be happy with 1/32" or even 1mm (I can metric too!) which would get me a decently square enough cabinet piece. It's either my measuring technique, the square itself which is inaccurate, or my cutting method, but I find if I am careful, I can split a line made by a 0.5mm mechanical pencil with my cuts. So I'm pretty sure it's the square.

What techniques do you guys use, those of you who don't have a $8,000 sliding panel saw in your shop, to guarantee that your cabinet parts, or ANY large wide crosscut, is square to an adjacent edge? What tools would be recommended to mark a highly accurate perpendicular cut line? The YouTube videos I've seen on cabinet construction kind of gloss over the whole thing, they go from full sheets to a pile of cut parts in high-speed or stop-motion and nobody even mentions measuring and marking.

[Marc Fenneuff]

I suffered this way with cabinet carcasses for a couple years, relying on the factory corner to be my perpendicular (and was always disappointed). Simplest way to get accuracy in your case is to cut the long side on your TS with the rip fence, and cut the short side with a simple single-runner crosscut sled. If you square the fence on your crosscut sled adequately you'll get a satisfactory 90 for your carcass parts. Break down your 4x8 sheets as necessary first with a track saw or circ saw and straightedge.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I made that type of cut with the Skilsaw and homemade guide rails for years. It is not easy to get them prefect. A few years ago I bought a small vertical panel saw for $1200.00. I have modified it with a full length rail and it does a very good job.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I had similar issues doing similar length crosscuts on large panels.

I already had a Festool track saw, Festool MFT (which for me has been a bit of a white elephant), but by themselves, did not give me the crosscut capability I was after.

So I bought the Part II Bench Dog jig ($200), a 4'x8' sheet of MDF and made myself a portable MFT style top.

With bench dogs, my new portable top and my old Festool track saw and 55" track, I can now crosscut 3 feet.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Bench%20Dog%20Top/.highres/BenchDogTop3_zpsczfeejs4.jpg


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Bench%20Dog%20Top/.highres/BenchDogTop2_zpsvpkrlszb.jpg

[Jack Frederick]

I recently built my own MFT (42x76) using the Parf Guide Mark II. I’ve added the various dogs from UJK and using my Festool track saw have been very pleased with the results. I’m doing dadoes and rabbits on the track rail as well with the Festool 1400 router and the micro adjust track attachment. I’m still checking every cut on this thing as it is still fairly new to me, but everything is coming up square. I can accurately cut a 48’ piece of plywood. I guess going lengthwise I could handle the long rip as well but have not done so yet. I’m working out a system for stops for cutting identical lengths. I’ve owned the TS55 for years and always liked it for sheet goods but that was only occasional use. Now, I use it all the time. Rather than taking the big material to the saw I am now taking the saw to the big material. Better for me.

[Kevin Jenness]

I used a sled on the tablesaw for many years with consistent, acceptable results. A tracksaw setup as described above should work as well.

If you doubt your square, its easy enough to check it. Cut a straight edge on a panel as wide as your square will reach, scribe a line "square" to the edge with the blade, flip the square over and compare to the scribed line. Framing squares can be trued up by peening the corner.

[Jon Endres]

How accurate do you think a vintage drafting t-square would be? Ex. Dietzgen, Keuffel & Esser? I have a few of them floating around but have never considered using them in the wood shop, always thought they were too fragile. Used them for decades to actually draw, obviously trusted them for paper drawings so they should be reliable for shop use?

EDIT: I know a lot of you enjoy your Festool stuff but I nearly went broke buying a Domino, so that's not likely to happen. I am leaning more towards a Woodpeckers 2616 Precision Square. Might be able to swing that cost but holy crap that's a lot of coin for a chunk of aluminum.

[Kevin Jenness]

Just get a framing square, file the edges straight if need be, and peen it into square if needed as described above. A large drafting square with a wooden tongue can be trued up with a rabbet plane. You can make a large square of wood or sheet material. The important thing is to have a long, straight tongue and blade, a straight edge on your workpiece, to check that your square is really square and adjust it if not. You can't necessarily rely on a brand name.

[Jamie Buxton]

I made myself a big speedsquare. By big I mean the arms are 52” long. I tested and tuned this tool until it now is the most accurate 90 degrees in my shop. (Did you know that the 1/32” error you want in a 48” crosscut is .03 degrees?!)

Testing a big square isn’t difficult. First cut a straight edge on the 96” edge of some sheet good. MDF is cheap. You do need a straight edge, accurate to whatever precision you want on your square. Use your square to crosscut the sheet in the middle. Fold the two halves together like you’re closing a book. The two parts of the 96” edge will align, and the two crosscut edges will align. If the 90 degree angle is not 90 you can see how much to tune the square. It may take several iterations to get it right.

How you tune the square depends upon how you built it. I tuned mine by hand planing the edge of the crosscut arm. However if I were to do it again I’d make the square like a drywall square, so tuning could be done by loosening a screw at one end of the diagonal brace. When I got 90 degrees I’d add more screws so there’s no chance of slippage.

[David Stone (CT)]

I don't really have the capability to crosscut an 8' long, 24" wide sheet of plywood with my table saw, so I make the cuts by marking with a reasonably accurate framing square or a good quality drywall t-square and then crosscutting with my track saw (an older EZ-Smart setup).

I would reverse the order: use the tracksaw to crosscut the 8' long 24 inch wide section of plywood into shorter sections/rough cut parts that are no longer too unwieldy to cut safely and accurately on the table saw, then use the table saw with a sled capable of handling 24 inch wide stock to cut that stock to final panel sizes. This set-up should produce panels that are plenty square enough--I built a kitchen this way using a very modest table saw.

[lowell holmes]

A straight1X4 and skill saw make a fair track saw. Just clamp the straight edge to the plywood and use it as a straight edge. Practice before making serious cuts.

[Michael Schuch]

You didn't mention if you have a track saw or not? I love my track saw and it makes those cuts go MUCH easier. My 16" radial arm keeps a good 90 degree cutting angle but it doesn't have a 24" cut. Before my track saw I would cut 2/3rds of the way through a 24" wide board, flip the board over then finish the cut. With a clean blade notch in the RAS fence alignment was easy and I got very good very close to square cuts.

Like it was mentioned above DO NOT ASSUME THE FACTORY EDGE IS 90 degrees! The problem could very well be at the mill and not with your technique.

[Jack Frederick]

“Loving the Festool stuff…” Classic love/hate. I do love the 55 and only recently got the 1400 for Xmas. I can’t afford the Domino;)

[Michael Fink]

Glad I'm not the only one fighting this battle. ;) Working on a set of cabinets that's almost 90in high X 20in deep. Did a lot of staring at it wondering how to make an accurate/clean crosscuts on the 96X20 sheets I had after ripping them on the table saw.

I finally threw up my hands and spent some money. I do enough of these big cabinets (as a hobby, not a profession) that I felt it warranted to spend some money (more tools, more better, right?). I got the TPG Parallel guide system for my Makita track saw, and that does appear to be the answer for my needs. It's absolutely dead on accurate/solid (assuming, of course, that you set it up right!). It also killed two birds for me, after cutting the 90x20 sections of plywood, I then needed to dado them to take shelves. Running that through my table saw sounded "not fun" but with the track and parallel guides, I can just run my router along the track using a guide. Nice and easy, and, because of the TPG system, also, perfectly parallel cuts (I ganged the two sides and routed in one go).

The other option that I've looked at and considered over and over, but simply cannot justify, is a radial arm saw. The Original Saw company; looks like a beautiful piece of equipment, 24in cross cut AND dado blade capacity would work for just about any use I have where I need an accurate cross cut or dado placement. But ~6K delivered, plus the space required? And getting rid of my miter saw/miter saw station would hurt too (no need for both of them).

[Robert Engel]

I would abandon the idea of finding the perfect square, and think about an indexed dog setup like the others showed. IMO you can’t beat an MFT type set up for accuracy. You don’t need an expensive tracksaw it will work with what you’ve got. The big issue is drilling the holes. The better jigs are not cheap.

Personally, I don’t worry about it, like David ^ I use a tracksaw to rough cut everything 1/4” oversized, and use a panel sled on the table saw to square/final dimension. I can cut up to 30” wide. But, for panels longer than 50” it get a bit dicey. There, I use a fence set as square as I can get it, and use a router to dial in the edge.

Bottom line, trying to cut square to a line & relying on your eyes is going to lead to frustration, at least for cabinetmaking. I used to use a drywall square that I tweaked by drilling out 3 or the 4 rivets and dialing it in/refasten. But one drop on the floor negated that idea. A triangle square with a cleat to register like Jamie ^ suggested is better.

[Patrick Varley]

If you go the MFT route, one thing to investigate (as an alternative to buying a quality jig), is whether there is someone nearby who could whip one out on a CNC. If you only need it done once, may be cheaper than buying the jig. My local makerspace has one, and I know that they will frequently do one-off requests for people that aren't members at pretty reasonable prices.

[Jon Endres]

Glad I'm not the only one fighting this battle. ;) Working on a set of cabinets that's almost 90in high X 20in deep. Did a lot of staring at it wondering how to make an accurate/clean crosscuts on the 96X20 sheets I had after ripping them on the table saw.

I finally threw up my hands and spent some money. I do enough of these big cabinets (as a hobby, not a profession) that I felt it warranted to spend some money (more tools, more better, right?). I got the TPG Parallel guide system for my Makita track saw, and that does appear to be the answer for my needs. It's absolutely dead on accurate/solid (assuming, of course, that you set it up right!). It also killed two birds for me, after cutting the 90x20 sections of plywood, I then needed to dado them to take shelves. Running that through my table saw sounded "not fun" but with the track and parallel guides, I can just run my router along the track using a guide. Nice and easy, and, because of the TPG system, also, perfectly parallel cuts (I ganged the two sides and routed in one go).

The other option that I've looked at and considered over and over, but simply cannot justify, is a radial arm saw. The Original Saw company; looks like a beautiful piece of equipment, 24in cross cut AND dado blade capacity would work for just about any use I have where I need an accurate cross cut or dado placement. But ~6K delivered, plus the space required? And getting rid of my miter saw/miter saw station would hurt too (no need for both of them).

Well, I do have a large radial arm saw, but it's a shop decoration at the moment. It needs work and I'm not actually sure I want to keep it. I looked at the TSO product and that looks really nice and would solve my problem. Unfortunately I don't think it will work with my track saw system (I have a vintage EZ-Smart system with a proprietary track). I have been thinking about upgrading my track saw to a Makita, and this may be the impetus to do just that. It will solve a lot of problems. Right now my max depth of cut is only about 1-3/8" and that is often a problem for me.

The Festool MFT system is just out of my budget right now.

You guys have given me a lot of options, from cheap to expensive, I just need to figure out what level of accuracy I'm willing to accept and how much I'm willing to pay for it.

[glenn bradley]

If you don't do a lot of Kitchen-n-Bath you may not be setup for large panels. This is me also. I made a purpose specific sled that would fit the largest panel of a project at that time. I figured it would go after the project was done. It is still in service years later.

Here it is way back when.

472939

And hanging behind the TS operator area today.

472940

[Dennis Jarchow]

I don't think it will work with my track saw system (I have a vintage EZ-Smart system with a proprietary track). I have been thinking about upgrading my track saw to a Makita, and this may be the impetus to do just that. It will solve a lot of problems. Right now my max depth of cut is only about 1-3/8" and that is often a problem for me.


I have the EZ Smart system and a Makita track saw. I got accurate cuts for years with my EZ-Smart, but it took time (and accurate measurements) to get things square, even with the EZ-Smart square. I do have the TSO parallel guide system for the Makita, and it is a much better system than the old EZ Smart square and cabinet repeaters, but not cheap.

The things I like about the Makita is the ability to make long bevel cuts with the track saw without cutting into the anti-chip strip, the ability to plunge cut and accurately control depth of cut, and the built-in dust collection. The rails for the Makita (and others like it) are more finicky to connect together and get straight than the EZ-Smart were, and I never worried about bending the EZ-Smart rails whereas I have already bent one of my makita rails.

If I had an MFT system, I might use my track saw for more things, but in many cases, it is faster, and just as, if not more accurate to use the tablesaw and a crosscut sled. But there are times when the track saw is the best choice. Last week I had to cut multiple 7' long bevels in an expensive piece of cherry plywood to miterfold some columns. Due to my skills (or lack of) and table saw setup I would never have been confident in making 16 of those 7' cuts accurately enough on the tablesaw for the miterfolds to look perfect. With the track saw it was no problem at all.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

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[Michael Rutman]

I did my first cabinet with my new TS55 and got it square on the first try, which for me is amazing to get it square on any tries.

I cut a square template of the length I wanted and used that to lay out the track. For example, one of the templates was 24x4. I just moved it along the track until it was square. I think that was the measurement, it has to be what you want minus the width of the track.

There are add ons for the tracks that will square it for you, but I haven’t bought those yet.

I learned a long time ago that you can replace skill with tricks and good tools. Templates aren’t tricks, using them when you know you need to despite being lazy is the trick :).

[Maurice Mcmurry]

A down-side to my panel saw and my Skilsaw and rail rigs is the run-out (blade wobble) that hand held type circular saws have due to the short shaft and gear configuration. If you can use your good table saw or other heavy duty saw the results will be better. My shop is too small and multi purpose for a table saw rig that will accommodate full sheets.

[Jim Dwight]

Depending on how many cuts I need to make I use one of two methods, both involving my DeWalt track saw. For a few cuts, I use an Anderson plywood square that I have modified to have a small removable fence like a speed square. I just draw a .5mm line at right angle to the edge and put the track on the line. The anderson square is 18 inches so not full size for a 24 inch crosscut but it is wide enough for me.

If I have a bunch of crosscuts to make, I set up a fence on my outfeed/assembly/tracksaw cutting table. It has 20 mm holes for dogs and other things. Once set up, this is faster and more accurate. But for a few cuts, I don't bother to set it up. The fence is not a Festool configuration, it is based upon a Ron Paulk design.

[Mike Kees]

I made a large crosscut box very similar to Glen's back in the day. Used it for about 20 years. Now my solution is a Felder k700s . There were two other steps in between as well. The great thing about woodworking is there is always a "way" to accomplish something that needs doing. I use my stuff to make a living so have purchased some "solutions" that would not be in my life if this was strictly a hobby. Crosscut box is the cheapest solution. A track saw is a tool that is very useful for way more than just breaking down sheet goods. Either one would help you out.

[Michael Fink]

I made a large crosscut box very similar to Glen's back in the day. Used it for about 20 years. Now my solution is a Felder k700s . There were two other steps in between as well. The great thing about woodworking is there is always a "way" to accomplish something that needs doing. I use my stuff to make a living so have purchased some "solutions" that would not be in my life if this was strictly a hobby. Crosscut box is the cheapest solution. A track saw is a tool that is very useful for way more than just breaking down sheet goods. Either one would help you out.

I have to say, a track saw must be up there with one of the most useful tools, at least if this is your hobby and not your profession. A track saw is slow to setup and cut compared to a table saw. But man, the versatility! A few different types of jigs, or something like an MFT and there's not much you can't do with a TS. A lot of cuts a cabinet saw can make easier/faster, no question, but there are also a lot of cuts that are incredibly difficult or dangerous on anything smaller than a full cabinet saw (and even then, difficult without a slider; splitting a sheet of plywood down to two 4x4 sheets is hard even with a massive table saw if you don't have a massive sliding table with it).

I really do see a track saw as probably the top of the list if you want to get into woodworking in your 1 or 2 car garage. Couple that track saw with a track guided router, and you're able to do a lot of common joinery that would serve most people well for standard household projects. Honestly, if I had to choose and could only get one additional piece of equipment (assuming I have a track saw and a router), it would be a router table before a table saw. There are things that you cannot do with a router, even track guided, that you can do with a table mounted router. I struggle to think of a cut I cannot make with a track saw that I could a table saw (well, dado, but with a track guided router, you've got that handled). Yes, it would be a lot faster to make many of the cuts on my table saw, and I'm really happy I have both, but it's hard to beat the versatility of a tracked system with some parallel guides.

Even with a shop full of very nice stationary equipment, my track saw gets a workout in a lot of projects. One of my most common uses is strightlining long/rough lumber. Yes, I could do it with a jointer, or an elaborate table saw jig. But the track makes it so easy, joint one face flat, drop on the track, straight line and edge; plane the other face, run the resulting board through the table saw to get it to final dimension. Plenty of ways to do that, but really nice and easy with a track saw.

The other tool that I have that a track could not replace is my bandsaw. If you want to bookmatch or cut down thicker lumber, there's no really good way to get that done without a bandsaw.

[Tom M King]

It's not an equipment problem. It's a layout problem. Many sets of cabinets have been made plumb, level, and square with nothing more than a circular saw. I'm not saying it's easy, and not only can be done, but has been done. I built one house full of cabinets a year for 33 years with no more accurate tools than circular saws, contractors table saw, and framing squares. They were neither small, nor cheap houses. I did use very sharp no. 4 pencils.

[Will Blick]

Great thread, I think most people encounter this issue, specially for large panels...
I have a PM2k, but can not break down sheets on it, too big, requires too much shop space, and should have two people. I work alone mostly.
so I have a Track Saw for large sheets, cut outside (not possible for those in harsh weather climates)
I also have large MFT, built using the Parf II system.
MFT's are NOT perfectly square, at least from my experience. I was soooo diligent with drilling my parf II holes, and yet, the squareness is just good, but for larger sheets, not as good as I wanted... its been so long since I made it, cant recall the exact error it was. Of course for short cuts say 16" or less, its sufficient. Every time you double the distance, you double the error, hence why longer cuts produce unacceptable tolerances where shorter cuts produce acceptable tolerances.
I like the idea of just cutting sheets down to smaller sizes, then work them on the TS, when possible, if you have a good TS set up accurately. I do this when possible, but its a lot of extra steps.
The single best tool I own for square large panels, is the 26" WP square, its super square (read the tolerances on their web site) and is the ultimate reference for square. So as another poster mentioned, cut the long side of a sheet to clean up the straight line, use the WP 26" square to get a clean 90 on the short side. Now u have two near perfect references. Cut the rest to size using the same square to set the track. Fastest and most accurate system I have found. Of course, this excludes large scale shops with sliders, panel saws, etc.
Stow-away tools, for hobbyist ww are the holy grail for prof. projects when performed in limited sized work spaces.

[Bill Cuthbertson]

TSO Guide Rail Squares are dead on accurate in my experience, has been a big time saver for me.

[Will Blick]

I am curious if only WP makes such a large precision square at 26"...
any others on the market that are precisioned, vs construction grade?
I own TSO clamp on squares... IMO, too small, and the system (rail and clamp) can be off.
the square itself is highly accurate, its the process of clamping it on the rails (Festool rail) which are a bit flimsy, which is the weak link. I had to put some blue tape on my square to get it square. They prob suffice for short cuts, on short rails. But I would never rely it for a 4ft+ cut. No knock on TSO here, they make great products, its the premise. Many companies make these clamp on rail squares. Be sure to check after they are clamped on with a reliable reference. Which goes back to the same issue, a large accurate reference is key, if u have that, just use it set the rail, instead of these other gizmos.
gotta learn everything the hard way.
I am only addressing how to make square cuts on larger panels, which seemed to be the gist of the OP question.

[Scott Bernstein]

Lots of ways to make a cabinet, obviously.... I just made our kitchen cabinets and used 3/4 Baltic Birch-brand plywood for the boxes. Joined the box sides, top, back, and bottom with rabbet/dado, screws, and glue. I broke down the 5 x5 pieces of plywood with a Festool Tracksaw on the floor, placing the pieces on top of a 4 x 8 piece of 2" thick closed cell pink foam insulation. I have the woodpeckers right-angle tracksaw jig so that way each of the pieces had at least one 90-deg corner. I was able to take each of the (now) more manageable-sized pieces to the tablesaw and made the cuts to final dimension. I used a roller floor stand in front the table saw on the infeed side and a folding outfeed table to help support the plywood - these really made it easy to make the cuts. Then I used a dado blade and sacrificial fence to make all the rabbets along the edges. This worked out really well and the boxes came out square - at least close enough, anyways. The cabinets are frameless/euro-style and so I applied solid wood edgebanding, before assembling the boxes.

Good luck!

Scott

[Michael Fink]

TSO Guide Rail Squares are dead on accurate in my experience, has been a big time saver for me.

This is what I'm trying currently to solve this problem. Seems to be working pretty well, and it solves 2 problems, making a wide/square cross cut AND if you add the rails that go on it, making a repeated wide cross cut. It's slow compared to the table saw, no question about that, but the results seem to be between very good and perfect (or as perfect as I can measure/see). I built a 4x8 table with foam insulation on top and have set that up as my tracksawing station. Heck of an improvement vs cutting on the floor!

The big "miss" that I have right now is making a repeated dado across those wide pieces; I do have a way to do it, but I really don't like running something 24in wide and 48in long through the table saw or router table with the short end on the fence. I bought a router jig that should help with this from Woodhaven; similar to the TSO system but for a router, allowing a guided, square and repeatable setup to cut a dado. System looks really nice, just haven't had a need to use it yet.

[Bill Dufour]

A good radial arm saw would be my choice. Cheaper then a decent track saw and rail set up. I think my GE will do 24" crosscuts at 90.
Bill D

[Ron Selzer]

I prefer to use a panel saw
2cd choice is a large homemade square that is used to check and calibrate the panel saw as needed
3 pieces of straight wood, 1 x 3 or what ever, screwed together to make a 4 or 5' tall square, have both.
made them to calibrate the panel saws. 60" Safety Speed Cut has never needed adjusted. 48" Milwaukee has needed adjusted
light weight, inexpensive, easy to make and calibrate as needed