Construction of cabinet boxes

[Ole Anderson]

You are tasked with constructing ten 42" tall upper cabinet boxes, natural finish (not painted) using 3/4" plywood. Assume all choices include glue. Other than choice of material and thickness I don't see much discussion of how to build cabinet boxes. So I thought I would start a poll. Feel free to expound on your techniques and add choices.

[Jim Becker]

Different strokes for different folks on this one, Ole!!!

Personally, I generally do butt joints with glue and screws for carcasses using pre-finished material so the insides are already finished if they are going to be visible. (non finished interiors for drawer units) I tend to use .5" material for uppers for weight savings and .75" material for base units, but sometimes I'll use pre-finished "shelf" material for uppers which tends to be .75". I also do separate bases so those can be leveled before the carcases go on top of them. For me, that makes installation easier and I don't have to deal with toe-kick cutouts.

There are SO many ways do do this operation, however!

[Ole Anderson]

Jim, with nearly 60k responses, you must camp out on your computer! You, sir, are a wealth of information. Thank you so much for all of your contributions!!! You responded so quickly I hadn't had a chance to finish my corrections! I would think that 1/2" material wouldn't leave much left to plug your screw holes.

[Jared Sankovich]

Applied/integral end panels or just a box.

If separate end panels: butt joints and screws (rebate for back panel) and pocket screws for the face frames.
472809

[Brad Schmid]

None of the above.

I've come to like the Sommerfeld tongue and groove construction technique... 3/4" maple plywood material mostly. Glue only, no fastener hardware used (except for pocket screws in face frame). Adjustable pin shelving throughout. Sprayed with Target EMtech shellac and lacquer. The combo gives light enough color for better visibility inside cabinet. The one thing i like to do different on the upper cabinets is that i make them 2" deeper than standard depth (14"). I adopted this after years of cussing at cabinet doors not being closed because of large serving bowls and platters stored up there. It also gives plenty of room on top for displaying "things" (baskets, vases, led lighting strips, turnings, etc.). I've also converted from doors on the lowers to mostly drawers to avoid crawling around on the floor to find stuff or pick stuff up when it falls out... All slides are full extension, soft close, adjustable (if you can find them now!).
Hope that helps.

BTW - I use raised panel/hardwood for anything visible externally and not painted (end panels, drawer fronts, doors, kick panels, trim, etc.). Almost forgot, I use 4" x 3/4" stretchers on top and bottom of back. The backs are 1/4" maple ply to eliminate unneeded weight of full 3/4".

[Myles Moran]

I haven't seen the Sommerfeld tongue and groove system, but I'm guessing it'd be similar to a dado type construction I'm familiar with. I voted domino since I still haven't splurged and use my plunge router in it's place - to me the difference between dominoes, loose tenons or routing a groove in this application is very minimal, the results are effectively the same if they're done properly.

I also said pocket holes, because in a location where they would end up hidden, I have 0 issue with using pocket screws. The key is planning ahead that they're hidden without having to use plugs.

[Dave Sabo]

Other than choice of material and thickness I don't see much discussion of how to build cabinet boxes. So I thought I would start a poll. Feel free to expound on your techniques and add choices.

This is interesting.

I should think there'd be A LOT of discussion on how to build a box. Your poll kinda invites discussion doesn't it ?

Even if it's only a frame vs. euro box discussion.

Then there's the age ol debate on how to hang em -
Solid back ? how thick ?
Stretchers ? how many ?
French cleat ?
Hanging rail system?

Anyone else think 5/8" material is the best of both worlds for the carcass ?

[julian abram]

3/4" Birch or Maple cabinet grade ply, pocket hole the box assembly and face frame, biscuit the face frame to the box, nothing fancy.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I haven't seen the Sommerfeld tongue and groove system, but I'm guessing it'd be similar to a dado type construction I'm familiar with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klv0jzWD26w This is part one of three (actually 4 )

The system is stupid easy. Even a "wood butcher" like me can make a respectable box.

Add me in for +2 or +3 on the Sommerfeld system.

[Dave Zellers]

It takes some big ones to attach your name to something that's been around since hand planes were invented.

[Marc Fenneuff]

3/4" Birch or Maple cabinet grade ply, pocket hole the box assembly and face frame, biscuit the face frame to the box, nothing fancy.

This. Once I learned the trick of aligning face frames to the carcass with biscuits it was -almost- magical.


I also do separate bases so those can be leveled before the carcases go on top of them. For me, that makes installation easier and I don't have to deal with toe-kick cutouts.

This too!

[roger wiegand]

None of the above. I make lock rabbet joints. I do pin them with a few finishing nails so I don't have to clamp, but I'm not depending on the nails for anything after the glue has set. So-- Do I have to vote "nails"?

[Dave Zellers]

I also do separate bases so those can be leveled before the carcases go on top of them. For me, that makes installation easier and I don't have to deal with toe-kick cutouts.

Totally agree. It also means you get 6 base cab sides out of 1 sheet of ply.

[Kevin Jenness]

Depends on the design. For hidden sides I use biscuits and #8 x 2"screws through the standards, for exposed sides biscuits and clamps. If the bottoms are exposed they may run through or the bottom edges of the standards are banded. Otherwise a finish panel is used and scribed to the wall. Typical prefinished birch or maple, 3/4" boxes and 1/2" backs screwed on, 3/4" shelves with 1" solid nosing, prefinished and biscuited on with a 1/32" offset. Ladder bases for lower cabinets.

Face frames are pocket screwed and glued together, biscuited and pocket screwed or clamped to the boxes and miterfolded to the finished ends .Face frames are offset 1/32" from the carcasses. Frameless boxes have 1/4" solid banding and applied finished ends attached with screws and/or biscuits.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, with nearly 60k responses, you must camp out on your computer! You, sir, are a wealth of information. Thank you so much for all of your contributions!!! You responded so quickly I hadn't had a chance to finish my corrections! I would think that 1/2" material wouldn't leave much left to plug your screw holes.
For 1/2" material I use #7 trim head screws with glue. There's no plugging because there is an overlay used on the "end" cabinet; either a panel that matches the doors or a flat panel, either veneer plywood or 1/4" MDF if being painted. No screws are ever visible. This is the method that a cabinet maker neighbor at our old property taught me years ago. Carcasses are just that; the "beauty layer" goes on top of the carcasses.

BTW, I forgot to mention that most of what I've built have been inset doors. A coming project here in our new home will have to be Euro style to be consistent with the existing Kraftmaid kitchen in format, even though there will be a difference in some design elements.

[David Stone (CT)]

For my kitchen with frameless cabinets, I used 3/4 prefinished ply for the boxes, 1/4 for the backs, with biscuits at the joints as a means to simultaneously establish registration and make the connection, paired with pocket screws let into the tops and bottoms, so as to pull the joints nice and tight and act as clamps and add some (probably unnecessary but cost-free) supplemental strength. This method does have the drawback that the pocket screw recesses are visible on the bottoms of the upper cabinets--if you stoop way down and look up--but that doesn't bother me.

The kitchen walls on my 175-year old house are not only wildly out of plumb but twisted, which would have made shimming to hang a row of uppers plumb, flush and straight a giant hassle, even before considering that the stud spacing is irregular and less than ideal. So I chose to hang the uppers from aluminum z clips (like a french cleat) that fasten to a truly straight ledger that I let into the wall, shimming it out from the studs as needed to allow the bank of uppers to hang plumb and in alignment.472883472884

[Tom Bain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klv0jzWD26w This is part one of three (actually 4 )

The system is stupid easy. Even a "wood butcher" like me can make a respectable box.

Add me in for +2 or +3 on the Sommerfeld system.

+4 for the sommerfeld T&G method. For face frames, I use a combination of dominos and pocket holes.

[Greg Quenneville]

For users of the Sommerfeld system, would you use that for particle board or melamine coated MDF?

(Unable to source good cabinet plywood locally)

Greg

[Rich Engelhardt]

For users of the Sommerfeld system, would you use that for particle board or melamine coated MDF?
I can't see why not to use it.
(Then again, as I alluded to above, I consider myself little more than a "wood butcher" - with all due respect for those in the actual trade of being a butcher.)

The only thing that may give me pause would be the wear and tear on the Sommerfeld router bits. However, they are very high quality and probably have plenty of room for sharpening in them.

Most of the construction is glued. Pocket holes & glue are used for the face frames and the lower shelf of the carcasses.
Kreg coarse screws work very well in both MDF & particle board in my experience - even more so when backed up by glue.

Aside from the sheer misery of working with MDF, I don't see any problems.

Hopefully someone else with a whole lot more experience and/or savvy will also chime in.

[Robert Engel]

The Sommerfeld bits are CMT.

[Jared Sankovich]

For 1/2" material I use #7 trim head screws with glue. There's no plugging because there is an overlay used on the "end" cabinet; either a panel that matches the doors or a flat panel, either veneer plywood or 1/4" MDF if being painted. No screws are ever visible. This is the method that a cabinet maker neighbor at our old property taught me years ago. Carcasses are just that; the "beauty layer" goes on top of the carcasses.



#8s with a pilot hole work well in 1/2" material.
472910
472911

One thing not touched on in this thread was monolithic construction as opposed to modular boxes (assuming it's not frameless) My suggestion it to make the frames and boxes as large as practical (and still allow you to move)

472914

[Ron Citerone]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Jim Becker https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=3172812#post3172812)
I also do separate bases so those can be leveled before the carcases go on top of them. For me, that makes installation easier and I don't have to deal with toe-kick cutouts.

Totally agree. It also means you get 6 base cab sides out of 1 sheet of ply. "Dave Zellers"

Yes, and in the event of a plumbing leak, the end of the cabinet side is not wicking water.

[Ole Anderson]

When I did my euro style kitchen cabs in Hickory nine years ago I went with dowels as I wanted something that wouldn't show either inside or on the outside. Didn't want to invest in a domino and I knew biscuits really didn't have the strength I wanted. Four dowels per joint, two in the front and two in the back.

[Dan Hahr]

Don’t think I’ve seen the term “dado” anywhere in this thread. Isn’t this a common method? Dado, glue, and screws?

Dan

[Kevin Jenness]

I knew biscuits really didn't have the strength I wanted

I have found biscuits to be quite adequate for joining sheet goods. About the only place I might use a stronger form of joinery on kitchen cabinets would be under a heavy appliance like a wall oven.

Isn’t this a common method? Dado, glue, and screws?

Unless you are running the dados and rabbets with a cnc or panel router (expensive) or a hand-held router (slow, tedious), getting the grooves a consistent depth is difficult. It does make for a strong joint, but the truth is butt joints and screws are strong enough by themselves in most situations, with biscuits for alignment and extra strength or when exposed screws are not an option. Cutlisting is simplified too, as you don't have to compensate for dado depth.

[Jim Becker]

#8s with a pilot hole work well in 1/2" material.

Yes, they do. I'm just more comfortable with the slightly smaller #7 and there's a hair more leeway when going into the material edges. You gotta be really perfect with the larger heads on #8s for sure!!! Pre-drilling/countersinking is necessary regardless to avoid any blow-out. I do use the #8 screws on 3/4"/18mm stock.

[Brad Schmid]

The Sommerfeld bits are CMT.

I would add that one of the main high value benefits of the Sommerfeld designed/spec'd CMT manufactured bit's (if in fact CMT is still who is making them today) is the fact that the bit shaft lengths are standardized such that once one bit in a set is seated (on an o-ring in the collet) and adjusted to the proper depth, other bits in a set (eg. rail & style) can be swapped (or replaced with new) without doing any further adjustment. It's been a real time saver over the years for me...

[Jon Grider]

3/4" Birch or Maple cabinet grade ply, pocket hole the box assembly and face frame, biscuit the face frame to the box, nothing fancy.

That's how I do it also. For paneled doors, I Domino the rails/stiles. Biscuits come into play when applying face frames to carcasses for alignment.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I made a lot of cabinets around 30 years ago for our home and we still live there using the same cabinets.

I used 1/2 in plywood with yellow PVA glue and screw (mostly not pocked), most of the times. It was easy to hide them with some attention. I used European style as I do not like framed cabinets as it is common in the US. I guess framed carcass are yet easier to hide screws as it is common to have an extra panel over the visible sides.

Cabinets are strong and they look as new after almost 30 years of abuse.

Drawers are also made with 1/2 inch plywood with no fancy jointing. Just butt joints glued and with brads. No problems at all after (almost) 30 years of abuse.

Doors and front drawers made with solid wood and raised panels for kitchen and flat pre-build panels for bathrooms and service area.

On that time I had almost no experience with woodworking techniques and I am a little bit surprised as so simple technique resulted in so durable piece of cabinets!

[Jim Becker]

Osvaldo, perhaps I misunderstood you, but I think you'll find that here in North America, the European style frameless cabinets have the largest part of the market, especially for mass produced product. Face frames and inset doors/drawers are, at this point, more of a special desire (and my personal preference) but they require a lot more work to produce which makes them more expensive. I actually have to switch gears here at our new place with a small cabinetry projet I'm going to do and build Euro style because they have to have that feel to fit visually with existing in the near-space. Which means I have to rethink some minor things about how I build cabinets. :)

[Gordon Stump]

I use 3/4" birch ply with stub tenons. For my shop cabinets: Frame less trimmed with walnut. European hinges. Actually when I did small kitchens I always did 3/8" stub tenons regardless of face frame or frame-less.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Thank you for your answer/comment, Jim. I am glad to know frameless is also frequent in the US of today.

All private homes I visited there in the last 30 years (for full disclose, it is not a so big number, one dozen of them actually) and most of the videos in YT I watch, it looks frameless is an anathema in the US!

On the other hand, all homes I visited in any other countries, cabinets were frameless.

Of course, due to the size of my sample, it could be an imperfect one.

[Joe Calhoon]

In the 80s, 90s and early 2000s we were doing whole house projects millwork, doors and casework. Did some inset face frame construction and finally went to a hybrid euro system. I consider inset face frame the highest quality from a craftsman view but in our area frameless with flush fillers, end panels and moulding is quite acceptable and from a business standpoint more profitable. You have to remember that building kitchen cabinets is not Brian Holcombe furniture! Most kitchens will probably only survive 20 to 40 years before a remodel. In my market I’ve noticed sometimes less unfortunately.
My construction method was 3/4” prefinished ply with 1/4” solid wood banding. Never liked the thin bandings put on with a auto edge Bander that can be knocked off easily. We had a Marunaka solid wood Bander at the time and did dowel construction with a SCM horizontal-vertical drill. Was set to buy a case clamp but at that time most shops figured out that was inefficient if using applied ends. Biskets and screws is what we settled on. I think plenty strong enough.
So 20 years after not touching a kitchen I find myself building one for our guest apartment. Thought about doing inset face frame but it’s small and like the functionality of the Euro system. A little rusty starting out but getting into the swing of it now!
472984
472985
472986

[Kevin Jenness]

472984
472985
472986

I like the through tenoned doors - seldom seen. My box construction is the same, though I often set back stretchers and partitions 1/32" to save sanding. What is the groove in the cabinet back at top center of the first picture?

[Joe Calhoon]

Kevin,
the through tenons were some work and only did that for my satisfaction! Back in the day we did cope with dowel construction. I always put a lot of effort into grain matching of the doors and drawer fronts.
the groove is for the 1/4” backs with hangers. I can see advantage to 3/4” backs but like to keep the weight down.
472990
472991

[Ray Newman]

Rich Engelhardt: thanks for posting the link to Sommerfield "System." So far, I watched the first two and the methods utilized are very interesting.

Again, thanks.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Ray - you're welcome!

Also take note of what Brad says here:



I would add that one of the main high value benefits of the Sommerfeld designed/spec'd CMT manufactured bit's (if in fact CMT is still who is making them today) is the fact that the bit shaft lengths are standardized such that once one bit in a set is seated (on an o-ring in the collet) and adjusted to the proper depth, other bits in a set (eg. rail & style) can be swapped (or replaced with new) without doing any further adjustment. It's been a real time saver over the years for me...


Last edited by Brad Schmid; 02-01-2022 at 12:12 PM.
This is an extremely good point since a whole lot of trial and error &wasted time setting and adjusting are reduced to almost nothing because of this.