Flush trimming / pattern cutting on shaper with rabbeting block and bearing?

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have this 125mm x 50mm Amana steel rabbeting block with shear cutting carbide insert knives and knickers - https://www.toolstoday.com/v-7718-61482.html

I have a some work coming up that would really benefit from having a pattern cutting setup in place and am wondering if I can use this rabbeting block with a rub collar type bearing as a lower budget pattern cutting setup compared to buying a separate spiral insert head?

If so, is this what I’m looking for?

https://www.toolstoday.com/v-7665-61620.html (https://www.toolstoday.com/v-7665-61620.html)

I want totally flush cutting with the template so I’m assuming a 125mm OD on the bearing is what I after. I’m confused because the photo of a red aluminum solid disk with a bore in it does not look like a rub collar but maybe the photo is wrong.

I realize that this setup is limited by the height of the cutterhead (50mm) and is a relatively large radius cutting circle (125mm) and will limit how tight of a radius I can cut. I think for the upcoming project, neither one of those constraints will matter. I’m sure I will end up with a nice separate insert pattern head at some point in the future, but wondering if a $30-40 bearing collar will accomplish what I’m after in the short term compared to a $200-800 insert head.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

[Michael Todrin]

That is exactly what you are looking for Phillip. Additionally, you will need the bearing, part #61599 which you could use with other collars of different diameters.

[Richard Coers]

That's what you want, but totally flush cutting is not guaranteed. There is tolerance in everything.

[Phillip Mitchell]

That is exactly what you are looking for Phillip. Additionally, you will need the bearing, part #61599 which you could use with other collars of different diameters.

Ah ok, I’m got it now. Thank you for the clarity!

[Phillip Mitchell]

That's what you want, but totally flush cutting is not guaranteed. There is tolerance in everything.

Thanks, yeah that’s to be expected I suppose. This will be for a batch of chair parts so consistency in dimension is the important part.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks, yeah that’s to be expected I suppose. This will be for a batch of chair parts so consistency in dimension is the important part.

It will work great, that’s my standard method of pattern copying……Rod.

[Warren Lake]

this has been posted enough times in the past but it never gets tired. I would pick my overhead ear protectors over the hat

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[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Warren. Haven’t seen that one before. That was a different era for sure!

What’s the origin / history of this photo? Looks like early 1900s if I had to venture a guess on when.

[Kevin Jenness]

this has been posted enough times in the past but it never gets tired. I would pick my overhead ear protectors over the hat

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A rare sighting of a shaper with overhead bearing.

[Warren Lake]

at one point I could tell you where that was from cant remember now. Maybe Jack posted it. Here is the junior version. Each generation of tooling had things unique to it. You can adjust projection in serrated edge.

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[Mel Fulks]

For years I used the type Warren posted . The 4 inch diameter corg heads work well too, but for stair rail parts ….not much good. But not
much of that work is done now.

[Warren Lake]

Jack said an interesting thing once about shavings going through the head, that was an interesting statement.

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[Greg Quenneville]

Thanks Warren. Haven’t seen that one before. That was a different era for sure!

What’s the origin / history of this photo? Looks like early 1900s if I had to venture a guess on when.

That Dick Tracy looking hat seems later to me…maybe 1940’s-1950’s. In my hometown men dressed like that right up until the Kennedy era.

On edit: I have a bow front dresser made in Grand Rapids sometime last century. Now my toes will curl everytime I look at it.

[Kevin Jenness]

I had a small smooth bevel edge collar set and knives once that came with a Boice Crane shaper. Never dared use them. My neighbor has two Schmidt lock edge collar sets with bearings, excellent for moulding contoured edges.

[Jared Sankovich]

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't mind having that top bearing setup with the 9"+ head. Though a considerably larger fixture and some guarded hand holds would be needed.

[brent stanley]

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't mind having that top bearing setup with the 9"+ head. Though a considerably larger fixture and some guarded hand holds would be needed.

I have one for the EQ and just need a spindle made up to suit. Pretty excited to give it a go for some drawer front work as in this image. I do think it's a less appealing grain appearance than steam or bent lam, but that's not always an option.

[brent stanley]

I use a 125x55 rebate block with a bearing designed to match it, so it's very close. You may well find the cut with this approach is more than good enough and you won't need the segmented block. Remember though, that shear cut block will give you a mild radiused cut which may or may not matter, depending on what you're doing.

B

[Phillip Mitchell]

I use a 125x55 rebate block with a bearing designed to match it, so it's very close. You may well find the cut with this approach is more than good enough and you won't need the segmented block. Remember though, that shear cut block will give you a mild radiused cut which may or may not matter, depending on what you're doing.

B

Aha...I did not think of this, but I suppose it make sense given the geometry of the shear cut. How much of a radius / out of square from the adjacent edge are we talking about over the height of the cutter block? If I cut joinery first and it’s very slightly / barely perceptible I don’t know if it will matter in this case, but that is not something I was thinking about.

Thanks for the post Brent!

[brent stanley]

Aha...I did not think of this, but I suppose it make sense given the geometry of the shear cut. How much of a radius / out of square from the adjacent edge are we talking about over the height of the cutter block? If I cut joinery first and it’s very slightly / barely perceptible I don’t know if it will matter in this case, but that is not something I was thinking about.

Thanks for the post Brent!

I've never measured it, but it's very small. It affects edge joining/gluing (because two of those slightly radiused edges together doubles the difference and gap) mainly, and is hard to even see unless you're looking for it. The greater the sheer the greater the radius. That is, unless the knives are also radiused like in my 16" shear cut Wadkin Jointer. They rarely are with that type of block. The carbide inserts in the segmented heads are radiused for this reason but aren't always perfect for every block diameter/shear angle combination, so sometimes you can suffer from the same problems actually but with multiple scallops across the face.

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[Joe Calhoon]

If you have meeting joinery coming into the part that was cut with the shear rebate cutter you most likely not notice anything if it’s less than 1 1/2” thickness or so. The 4Z rebate blocks cut about as well as the spiral heads in most timbers. The spirals have some advantages in figured wood. They are usually smaller diameter and useful for tight radius work. They need a lot of rpm and you have to be careful not to overfeed.

I still have a lock edge head with the bearing like Warren showed. I still use It occasionally just because I have a few certain profiles for it. All I can say is I’m thankful for modern tooling and machines.

Sometimes I do curve door jambs with bricklayed segments to avoid any spring back. I have a 5” highX 5” diameter 50 bore 4Z Tersa head for shaping these. Using a inexpensive adjustable dead collar because my Aigner curve hood will not fit this setup we just nibble away at it little by little.usually have to flip the piece over to finish. That head combined with a 50 X 200 mm shaft will do a lot of heavy work. If your doing much curve work a adjustable dead collar will pay dividends.
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[brent stanley]

Aha...I did not think of this, but I suppose it make sense given the geometry of the shear cut. How much of a radius / out of square from the adjacent edge are we talking about over the height of the cutter block? If I cut joinery first and it’s very slightly / barely perceptible I don’t know if it will matter in this case, but that is not something I was thinking about.

Thanks for the post Brent!

The neutral point is typically in the middle of the block, with the deviation getting larger towards the top and bottom. So if you are milling the edge of your piece only on on edge of the block, it will be biased in one direction. If the stock is being milled by the block right in the middle, it's split 50/50. I often use an outboard fence on the shaper for final widthing of repetitive pieces because I can use the power feeder, and I alway make sure it's using the middle of the block for that. Harder to do when pattern milling thinner pieces.

[Kevin Jenness]

The distortion from square of a straight insert set in a raked pocket had not occurred to me. I have a pair of 7" diameter opposing shear tenon cutters but they are brazed carbide and ground in the head to cut square. I use an Amana "chiclet" insert head for pattern cutting with the square inserts set vertically rather than on a helix which works well. It sounds as though the insert shear cutter has a minimal downside but you may want to check out the fit on a straight mating cut before investing in a collar and bearing. If necessary the mating areas could be milled on the jointer and left uncut by the pattern cutter, or tuned up with a hard sanding block or block plane.

Philip, have you ever noticed any issues with fit on rabbets cut with your rabbeting head?

[Jared Sankovich]

The distortion from square of a straight insert set in a raked pocket had not occurred to me. I have a pair of 7" diameter opposing shear tenon cutters but they are brazed carbide and ground in the head to cut square. I use an Amana "chiclet" insert head for pattern cutting with the square inserts set vertically rather than on a helix which works well. It sounds as though the insert shear cutter has a minimal downside but you may want to check out the fit on a straight mating cut before investing in a collar and bearing. If necessary the mating areas could be milled on the jointer and left uncut by the pattern cutter, or tuned up with a hard sanding block or block plane.

Philip, have you ever noticed any issues with fit on rabbets cut with your rabbeting head?

There was a discussion on woodweb a few years ago regarding the shear heads. The ammana heads are very slight shear angles, so less of a convex curved cut, but still theoretically present. I've not noticed any problems and I run all my FF stock with a 2z amana shear head against an outboard fence on the shaper.


https://www.woodweb.com/forum_fdse_files/aw/826856.html

[Joe Calhoon]

I think you would notice it if you were trying to edge glue boards off a shear head. If you are doing that a straight knife insert head would be better. I have done many frames for glass panels using the shear head for the rabbit and the same head to cut the mating stub tenon with no noticeable gaping. After that post on woodweb I tried the same type joinery with my straight head in 1 3/4” stock. If you looked really really close you might see just a bit of heavy glue line. On 2 1/4” stock it would probably become more apparent.

[Kevin Jenness]

Jared, thanks for the link. Several photos there show the results in thick stock. The steeper the rake angle, the greater the resulting curve. It is worth noting that when doing rabbets with this cutter up to the mid point in height the gap will be hidden in the bottom corner of the joint.

[brent stanley]

Jared, thanks for the link. Several photos there show the results in thick stock. The steeper the rake angle, the greater the resulting curve. It is worth noting that when doing rabbets with this cutter up to the mid point in height the gap will be hidden in the bottom corner of the joint.

Yes, that's what I meant by the amount of bias or deviation being greater the further away from the centre of the block you go. It's not very often that it adds up to much, but it just might depending on what you were up to. As I said above, edge gluing effectively doubles this error so my make it more visible. A few planer/jointer manufacturers made skew knife heads and this of course is dealt with easily by grinding the knives right in the machine.

If you mill two edges off to one side of the block and then try to edge glue the complimentary or opposing edge skew might cause problems much like if your jointer isn't set to a perfect 90.

[brent stanley]

Aha...I did not think of this, but I suppose it make sense given the geometry of the shear cut. How much of a radius / out of square from the adjacent edge are we talking about over the height of the cutter block? If I cut joinery first and it’s very slightly / barely perceptible I don’t know if it will matter in this case, but that is not something I was thinking about.

Thanks for the post Brent!

Might be worth investing in what they call a Z4 block, which is 4 cutters around the cutting circle. They are typically oriented in what they call a "dual shear" with pairs opposite each other across the block being the same, but adjacent to each other being the opposite angle. It doesn't change the mild concave cut but it can improve finish in tricky grain. The dual shear also neutralizes the very mild axial thrust produced by mono shear, though it's rarely an issue.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for all the discussion around this. I have not noticed any issues with rabbets, but honestly have not made many rabbets that are big/tall enough to suffer from a convex edge relative to the height of the cutter block itself - 50mm. I will have to look a bit closer with a square and see how much radius is actual there/visible.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Well, so much for self control and trying to save a few (hundred) bucks. This just showed up on my steps.

4” tall x ~ 4” diameter with matching bearing. I saw several others that were more like 3x3 and that wasn’t as exciting to me I suppose. I would have gone 5” tall but I only have 5 1/2” under the nut on my T100 and with the bearing that’s pushing it.

I did happen to do some really tall 2”+ rabbets last week and measured the radius of the cut from the shear cutting knives in my rabbeting block. Wasn’t much (less than 1/64th?) of daylight top and bottom compared to the convex middle section, but less than ideal for pattern shaping to then have to flatten it back out.

I will report back on the cut quality and properties of this Schmidt Insert head and bearing setup.

[Mel Fulks]

Phillip, hope it works well for you. I know those cutters are popular now, but I think they are not as useful as corg heads . The corg. will
make a smoother straight cut and do moulding . I’m guessing that there is now a perception that they are somehow safer than corg.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Mel, I want a Corrugated head as well and it’s on the list. I don’t really do much traditional styled, molded work and thus haven’t really had a need for a flexible head like a corrugated as of yet. I am also pretty new to shapers and tooling, and was not indoctrinated in the old ways so may well be going about it backwards in terms of tooling order of acquisition.

[Kevin Jenness]

They are for different purposes. Corrugated heads are great for custom profiles. The insert cutters don't change diameter and always match the bearing. Corrugated cutters would have to be ground down by exactly one notch to retain the same relationship, or ground in the head and the bearing ground to match.

I have a brazed hss pattern cutter with a sleeved bearing that can be ground at the same time. My insert head, similar design to the Schmidt, does a cleaner job on figured wood, probably because of the greater rake angle.

I can't decide if there is a higher tooling/machine cost ratio associated with lathes or shapers.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Kevin. With my custom set of 3 bearings for corg heads I can get cut profile within 1/64 th . I think that is a better way that
should have been on the shelves years ago. Then I would not have had to wait for my Son to get old enough to do the math for me !

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks, Kevin. With my custom set of 3 bearings for corg heads I can get cut profile within 1/64 th . I think that is a better way that
should have been on the shelves years ago. Then I would not have had to wait for my Son to get old enough to do the math for me !

That's a good solution, though I will stick with my insert head. There's more ways to the woods than one!

[Joe Calhoon]

Phillip, hope it works well for you. I know those cutters are popular now, but I think they are not as useful as corg heads . The corg. will
make a smoother straight cut and do moulding . I’m guessing that there is now a perception that they are somehow safer than corg.

Mel, my experience is the insert carbide and spiral carbide cut much better than corrugated. And a lot safer if hand feeding because of the limited cutter projection. I use corrugated a lot for short run custom moulding. It’s the cheapest way to a custom profile. Don’t like doing curve work with them.
adjustable dead collar solves all the issues associated with rub collar bearings.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Joe,

Pardon my inexperience - what’s an adjustable dead collar?

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Joe. Feeding by hand is a lot safer and more accurate with use of spring hold -downs. I worked in several shops that did not
have them . But I promised the management that if they didn’t know where to buy them ,I knew a guy who would make them ,and
reminded them that US gov. and insurance companies liked the idea. Without them the nervous will often get spooked when the work rocks
on the table and flies a few feet. But usually the machine operator is not hurt….just some random unlucky passers by!

[Jared Sankovich]

Joe,

Pardon my inexperience - what’s an adjustable dead collar?

Ring fence (In British English)

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Ignore the French spindle, but this is the concept
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[Joe Calhoon]

Phillip,
yes the Brit’s call them a ring fence. Aigner calls theirs a curve moulding guide. I have a couple, the Aigner and a less expensive one that came with a machine. CPS I think. I like the Aigner but use the other one sometimes because it will do tighter radius. With the Aigner you can use the adjustable dead collar or a ball bearing rub collar. I have to do that on my 80mm diameter spiral because Aigner doesn’t go quite that small. It has a run up finger that keeps the bearing from rotating. Dust collection is good with these, safer than coming off a starting pin and nice that you can sneak up on big cuts on thick doors and windows.
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[Warren Lake]

ILl speak up for high speed steel. I have no skin in the game. Both of these are serrated edge fed by hand. Done over 40 years ago ball bearing head I showed above only different knives but the straight were used first before the profile. I ground the knives for the one on the right, first time for that. You couldn't ask for a cleaner cut. In production its going to dull faster of course. Its honed before the next use. Honing is fast and easy. I think ive read twice about guys with planers with knife grinders saying they have seen no finer finish even on figured woods. Be interesting to hear from someone who does that and how well it works

Doing custom you can get a knife made corg or serrated simple and easy. . If i wanted to do either of these in insert how does that work, you wait and pay big? This stuff works well, sometimes even grinding or changing a cutter to make the profile needed. The last three generation molding company I talked to told me 80 percent of what they use was corrugated at least at that time.

Old stuff is not for everyone. Serrated has its own danger over corg even if you have time on it. So does any cutter. If it doesnt pull you in as much, so what stay out of the cutters. Non of this stuff comes with air bags. They all have their place and their differences. I like having a choice if I had to run baltic or some other material then of course insert. Not that Nasa insert one that wont cut a straight line.

Kevin you mentioned about tooling investment I think of a one man tool and die maker who said he had huge in tooling but he also had tooling he made himself as they were taught that. You could have 50-100k in shaper tooling easily. Saw lots of tooling for sale at auctions over the years. Amazing how much some companies had to have. Furniture making companies like Gibbard or B and G the old school companies. Many jigs. History gone in a few days. Windows all around and wood floors and beams inside. Those shops had a sound when you walked through. Very live sounding. It was worth the time to go to auctions in other ways than just the machinery.


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[Mel Fulks]

Mel, my experience is the insert carbide and spiral carbide cut much better than corrugated. And a lot safer if hand feeding because of the limited cutter projection. I use corrugated a lot for short run custom moulding. It’s the cheapest way to a custom profile. Don’t like doing curve work with them.
adjustable dead collar solves all the issues associated with rub collar bearings.

The only problems I’ve had with steel cutters were with the low grade stuff sometimes sold , at least years ago, as “same hardness as M2”.
It often left striations after just several feet of cutting and was much worse about tear-out than real M2. I have used some high grade
carbide cutters that did leave a shiny ,non striated fine surface. No problems with T1.

[Joe Calhoon]

Warren, the curve crown is straight forward enough but please describe the jig and setup you used on the shaper to do the oval frame. Possible on a tilting shaper but very tricky with that tight radius. I would probably run that one on the Williams and Hussy.

[Warren Lake]

Plywood jig screwed to the bottom that should have more handles on it, mirror upside down from memory to start, you had to hand over hand, one handle to the other, one handle a big dowel on each end of the jig. First time using it, get the feel for it while using it and not liking it. I didnt make the jigs. Mirror was four sections that one is pine. Band sawed just over final size then dowelled together clamping from extra material not bandsawed off to give a place to put the clamps. Flush trimmed to the plywood jig with the ball bearing head above straight knives inside and outside. Profile cut in steps on the inside profile. One pass on the outside profile from memory so three knives outside inside and straight from memory. The small cove in the mirror might have been and think was a router bit. Only time I did them and long ago. I might have the cutters. There was no issue with the smaller radius that I remember. Its a 3" head ball bearing on one end. First time on the shaper. that would never be allowed now any of it. The crown was screwed to a jig one for the shape and one for straight cut for the sides.

[Joe Calhoon]

The oval frame looked like the large cove dipped below the surrounding surface requiring a cut from a tilting shaper or from the top with a W&H type moulder. But evidently not if you did it the conventional way.
For these type deep profiles I Would never have a insert carbide cutter made unless the quantities are great. For me any custom profile the customer buys the knives and I keep them. This is where corrugated is the most inexpensive way to go. From a business standpoint grinding your own seems like a non marketable skill given how inexpensive and quick they come from someone set up for it.

Another and more expensive than corrugated option for these deep type cuts is a Whitehill or Leitz type limiter cutter head with good HSS.

In a past life I made hundreds of doors with oval and curved mouldings. Had developed good jigs using braised carbide cutters. Now everything is one off. Would agree that good HSS makes a little better cut than braised carbide at first but the carbide keeps going. The insert carbide is a different animal than braised and cuts much better than HSS.

[Jared Sankovich]

The insert carbide is a different animal than braised and cuts much better than HSS.

I think I could shave with some of the carbide inserts I have.

As we are on the topic of carbide inserts and spiral heads.. does anyone with small amana head have issues. I've talked to a few other people with them. Some work great, some leave tracks.
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[brent stanley]

I think I could shave with some of the carbide inserts I have.

As we are on the topic of carbide inserts and spiral heads.. does anyone with small amana head have issues. I've talked to a few other people with them. Some work great, some leave tracks.
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Yes, as I understand it, inserts can get much sharper than brazed carbide. Since they don't have to worry about brazing it onto a cutter body, they can choose a composition that is finer grained and capable of attaining a keener edge. HSS can get sharper by all accounts, but it won't stay that way for too long.

Jared, looks like the overlap between some of your cutters may not be quite enough.

[Mike Kees]

Jared I have a knockoff segmented head that was in a pile of tooling that was included with a shaper I purchased. It is 4'' diameter and 4'' tall ,looks like a Byrd but the inside is hollowed out. It leaves those lines like in your pictures as well. One of those things that does the job well enough that I will probably just keep on using it.

[Joe Calhoon]

Jared, I have a Oertli 80 mm spiral head. It leaves a couple very small lines that sand out easily with a wipe of the orbital. Hard to see in the picture.
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have you turned the inserts on yours yet? I’ve made one turn on mine.

These are my go to on pattern shaping. The big Tersa makes the best cut, probably because of the mass and diameter. The spiral does a little better than the Z4 rebate going uphill on the grain. I think a larger diameter spiral head would do better also. This one is nice for small radius work.
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[brent stanley]

I have three different Byrd heads for three different machines and the one for the shaper has the same issue as yours even with fresh cutters. I would assume they intended to build them all the same, but a very minor difference in tolerances at the factory led to one being imperfectly made, thus leaving the tracks. A pain to deal with on endgrain but ok elsewhere. The Byrd isn't MAN rated and I'm using it for pattern shaping so will be replacing it with a Tersa style block like Joe's.


I think I could shave with some of the carbide inserts I have.

As we are on the topic of carbide inserts and spiral heads.. does anyone with small amana head have issues. I've talked to a few other people with them. Some work great, some leave tracks.
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[Jared Sankovich]

Joe,

Pardon my inexperience - what’s an adjustable dead collar?

First thing that I saw in my IG feed this morning. Reminded me of this thread.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CaGxpFljOsu/?utm_medium=copy_link

[Phillip Mitchell]

First thing that I saw in my IG feed this morning. Reminded me of this thread.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CaGxpFljOsu/?utm_medium=copy_link

Very nice display of the collar and looks like a good feed to follow. Thanks for the link.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Just wanted to update this thread with some real world feedback after I’ve had some real seat time with this cutterhead as a flush cutting setup. It is fantastic.

Im building 10 chairs currently and have been using it for template cutting of the back legs, arched crest/bottom rails on the back, as well as tapers on the front legs. Height of cut ranges from ~ 1 5/8” - 3 1/4” so far and typically taking between 1/16-1/8” off when flushing up. I can cut uphill/against the grain with practically no concern for tear out, which is handy on these chair rails in particular that I sawed from 8/4 stock.

I would like to try my hand at bent lam or steam bending sometime for these components in the future but I had enough new challenges already stacked up with this build that I stuck with sawing from solid wood with a template. It has been a good exercise for me to become familiar with it on my shaper.

Some ppl may scream about this but I have the bearing on the bottom (and all 4” of the cutterhead height sticking up) because of the way I could understand to build my templates and safe stock holding with stops, toggle clamps, screws, dominos, etc.

I have shared some videos over the last few weeks on my Instagram page which I will link to below in case anyone is interested in seeing that, but will also share a few still photos of some of the various setups/results.

https://www.instagram.com/stillwater_woodworks/?hl=en

This is an aluminum 4”x4” helical cutter with matching OD bearing from CGG Schmidt. I bought it from Neil at MT Tool, who is fantastic to deal with, btw. For reference, this setup with bearing was around $425 shipped. I looked at Amana, Whitehill, and Rangate. Amana didn’t have the size I wanted. Whitehill and Rangate were both nearly double the price and I couldn’t remember exact sizes. This 4” tall cutterhead + 1/2” tall bearing fits nicely on my spindle which has 5 1/2” below the nut. They do make a 5” tall version (and maybe a shorter one as well?)

Im sure the Whitehill and Rangate versions are just as good, if not better, but this one was a nice balance of size and price. It’s been getting a really solid workout lately and has more than paid for itself. Cut quality is so nice that it will just need some finish sanding and is similar to a quality surface from my jointer or planer (or better.)

Hope this helps someone.