Kitchen Cabinets

[jack dempsey]

Hello, I am contemplating building kitchen cabinets for my daughter who has bought her first house. The house has a small kitchen and I think it could be a reasonable project to accomplish. I have built some furniture in the past but I have not built any kitchen cabinets. The cabinets will be painted. I am looking for advice on materials and build methods from folks who have tackled a project like this. My first inclination is to do shaker style doors that would be painted hardwood and some type of laminate product for the boxes. All advice is appreciated with regard to materials and sources for help with construction details. Thanks, Jack

[Rod Sheridan]

Hello Jack, poplar is a very good hardwood for painting.

I would use either melamine or pre-finished plywood for the boxes…..Regards, Rod

[jack dempsey]

Thanks Rob, I was thinking poplar or maple.

[Charles Coolidge]

Consider 3/4 inch ply for the boxes. Been there done that building kitchen cabinets with 1/2 inch boxes on my old house. When I had my new house constructed I spec'd 3/4 inch Hickory ply, they are built like a tank! The upcharge was minor vs the 1/2 inch ply.

What Rod said, finishing a whole set of kitchen cabinets in clear urethane was the worst part of my kitchen cabinet project by far. Painting probably easier but just time consuming and my kitchen wasn't that large.

[Mark Wooden]

My preference for painted cabinets is 'soft' maple; it mills and sands smoother with less grain "read through" than poplar, but a little more expensive if cost is a consideration
Pre finished ply is usually my go to for carcasses, but melamine makes a nice cleanable interior surface, heavy though and particle board has a tendency to split and blow out without good pre-drilling. Lightweight MDF is another consideration if you dont mind painting the boxes.

[Ole Anderson]

One major consideration is how to build the boxes. I choose to use a dowelling jig with my 3/4" hickory uppers as it is totally hidden. And your choice of paint will be critical as you want something that is self levelling if you don't spray. I went with 5 coats of wipe on P&L #38 varnish as about the easiest way to get a perfectly smooth finish without spraying, which by itself is not without a significant learning curve. I did raised panel doors for my son's kitchen upgrade. Used soft maple for the rails and styles and mdf for the raised panels. Painted them using SW paint. https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/inspiration/project-center/update-kitchen-cabinets-in-5-steps

[Paul F Franklin]

It's blasphemy here, and I personally wouldn't do it...but consider buying IKEA boxes and building the doors/drawers. Their boxes are frameless, but you could add face frames if that's the style you want.

[Marc Fenneuff]

You’ll want a pre-finished material for the carcasses. I used 3/4” melamine in our kitchen and will continue for other projects. Spray the face frames, doors and drawer fronts if possible.

[Mitch schiffer]

I use prefinished uv plywood for the boxes. As for finish if I'm going white I use a white laquer any other color I either use a tinted laquer or a flat paint with a laquer top coat.

[John TenEyck]

My advice is to buy one or two books about building kitchen cabinets. Several to choose from, for both frameless and traditional faceframe styles.

FWIW, painted cabinets are not any easier than natural finish. What sins you can hide with putty you pay for because paint shows more defects than clearcoat. Every tiny little defect. My vote for wood is soft maple. Poplar dents too easily.

And I hope you are in reasonably good shape. Schlepping the sheet goods and parts cut from them, multiple times, needed for a kitchen full of cabinets is tough work.

Good luck.

John

[Jared Sankovich]

Cabinets aren't hard to build, it's just mostly repetitive.

I don't like poplar for face frames, the grain telegraphs and it dents too easily. Soft maple is superior.

As for painted vs stained.. painted is a lot more work.

I prefer 1/2" for uppers (3/4 decks and shelves), single face frames and as large as a unit as you can lift / move into the space.

[Lisa Starr]

I've done 2 kitchens in the past and am in the planning stages for the 3rd. It is an easy, but bulky project. I use 3/4" plywood for the boxes, including the backs. It adds to the cost, but simplifies the construction. Basically, I build 30" high boxes for the lower cabinets and install them on a separate frame that I've leveled perfectly. That allows setting the cabinets without the need to shim them level. Unless a very heavy counter is going to be installed, I don't put solid tops on the cabinets. If you plan your laps correctly, you can use pocket screws to help assemble them and none of them will show.

Everyone has a way that works best for them. If you would like particulars on my way, feel free to PM me for the details.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I use 1/2" melamine (not from BORGS) for boxes, including backs. Butt joint, glued (melamine glue,) and screwed. Soft maple face frames. Best Book I ever had is Danny Proulx's book "Making Your Own Kitchen Cabinets. After I got a copy, completely changed how I made cabinets. His method combines both the look of face frames and Euro hardware into one system.

[Bryan Hall]

I build a lot of cabinets and I've developed a system that I like so hopefully you can steal a few ideas from me.

1. If you haven't worked with a cutlist program yet, give that a quick spin. There's a free one called cutlist optimizer and it will help you with ordering all your ply. I also prefer working with 4x4 vs 4x8 sheets (because who likes picking up 4x8 sheets!?) So when I run the optimizer I tell it that all my stock is 4x4 and I just have the lumber yard cut it for me. Even though there will be a little extra waste doing 4x4 sheets, you can end up using those scraps elsewhere.

2. For materials: use lumber that you like and would want to use again. I make all of mine out of 3/4 appleply, baltic birch, or a nice prefinished maple. This way, I again, have useful scraps for the project or other builds later. Same thing goes for the faceframe and stiles/rails. Do you like working with soft maple? Then make them out of soft maple so you have soft maple leftovers. Do you prefer hard maple or have a hard maple project coming up? Then you have your answer. I make mine 7/8 thick, which is based on how big my router bits can handle for the stiles and rails.

3. Kids: if your daughter has, or is planning for kids in the future, I really recommend face frame cabinets over frameless. When those kids start to grab cabinet doors they will hold up better if secured to real wood. Every time I see an expensive hinge ripped out of a cheap particle board box I sigh. High quality drawer slides as well! I prefer undermounts and you should note that there is a 3-4 month lead time on the best brands for these.

Have fun with the project! Such a great gift idea. Take your time, doing it perfect should be good enough. That way every time she opens one of those doors and drawers she'll think of you and smile.

[jack dempsey]

Thanks for all of the replies. I should not be surprised that folks on this site take the time to give me great information on their experiences with cabinets. I think I will jump in and take a stab at building them. I believe I will make a cabinet to use in my shop to get the lay of the land so to speak. As for painting I think I will inquire locally to see what someone would charge to spray them. If that is too steep I may try my hand on them. Thanks again.

[Bryan Hall]

Around here painters charge, roughly, by the door/drawer. $150 for each one regardless of size. If hand painting is an option you can typically get it done cheaper.

Also worth noting is that high quality cabinet paint can also be hard to get. I use sherwinn williams emerald urethane and it comes out great but is commonly sold out.

[Rob Sack]

I have been building kitchen cabinets for over 3 decades. First of all, I do not recommend melamine. It is really heavy, hard to cut cleanly unless you have an scoring saw or an extremely accurate saw with super sharp blades that will wear out quickly, and will swell as much as 50% when exposed to even a slow drip. (Don't ask me how I know this.) It also doesn't hold fasteners well and doesn't glue well. For cabinet boxes, I recommend pre-finished 3/4 inch domestic plywood. I avoid imported sheet goods for a variety of reasons. Although I have done a lot of frameless cabinets, even for that "European full overlay look" I use some kind of face frame. As mentioned earlier, poplar is good, soft maple is better, though more expensive and sometimes harder to find. I think hard maple is over kill. I would also consider beech. Here in the Los Angeles area, it is priced similar to poplar, is at least as durable as soft maple, and works easier than hard maple. It also paints well. I also recommend only American made hardware.

[jack dempsey]

Bryan, Thank you for the information and the tips. I had not thought of a cut list program and have never used one but I think I will give it a go. I believe face frame is the way to go for the looks and the strength it adds. You were correct as to the reason to attempt this project, you want to help your kids. when you can. My daughter saved and with a little help managed to buy a house on her own. Makes me a proud Dad. Thanks again.

[Paul Wunder]

I used this book by Paul Levine 30 years ago when I made my first kitchen: Making Kitchen Cabinets. He also has a companion video.

You can probably grab both on the web for $15 used. Lot of detail on carcass building, dimensions, material, etc.

[Lee Schierer]

I build a lot of cabinets and I've developed a system that I like so hopefully you can steal a few ideas from me.

1. If you haven't worked with a cutlist program yet, give that a quick spin. There's a free one called cutlist optimizer and it will help you with ordering all your ply. I also prefer working with 4x4 vs 4x8 sheets (because who likes picking up 4x8 sheets!?) So when I run the optimizer I tell it that all my stock is 4x4 and I just have the lumber yard cut it for me. Even though there will be a little extra waste doing 4x4 sheets, you can end up using those scraps elsewhere.

2. For materials: use lumber that you like and would want to use again. I make all of mine out of 3/4 appleply, baltic birch, or a nice prefinished maple. This way, I again, have useful scraps for the project or other builds later. Same thing goes for the faceframe and stiles/rails. Do you like working with soft maple? Then make them out of soft maple so you have soft maple leftovers. Do you prefer hard maple or have a hard maple project coming up? Then you have your answer. I make mine 7/8 thick, which is based on how big my router bits can handle for the stiles and rails.

3. Kids: if your daughter has, or is planning for kids in the future, I really recommend face frame cabinets over frameless. When those kids start to grab cabinet doors they will hold up better if secured to real wood. Every time I see an expensive hinge ripped out of a cheap particle board box I sigh. High quality drawer slides as well! I prefer undermounts and you should note that there is a 3-4 month lead time on the best brands for these.

Have fun with the project! Such a great gift idea. Take your time, doing it perfect should be good enough. That way every time she opens one of those doors and drawers she'll think of you and smile.

X2, all good points. Use quality hinges as well and record all the hardware sources you use for future reference. Kids and adults have been known to lean on a cabinet door.

[Jim Dwight]

I built one kitchen about 30 years ago. We didn't have a lot of money and I did not have great tools but my wife was pleased with the result so it was a success. The boxes were rotary cut oak plywood from a big box store. Joints were shallow dados (used more for location of the pieces than strength) and were glued and screwed together. Boxes were frameless but could have had face frames. Doors were solid oak with raised panels and cope and stick joints. The door joints were all cut on my router table. Doors were full overlay. Wider cabinets got solid wood shelves. Where the screws would show I plugged the holes. I think I brushed on oil based poly - I like the amber tint it gives on oak.

I also made a kind of a kitchenette in the basement of the house after that with melamine cabinets. They were OK but I wouldn't do that again. Too hard to work with. But it is durable and cheaper.

When I made my kitchen I did not know about track saws - if they even existed - but if I was doing it now I would not proceed without one. They make working with sheet goods MUCH easier. Mine is not a break down tool, I cut large pieces of sheet or solid wood to final size with it. I kind of like making doors but you should also think about just buying the doors, especially if the project gets to be a bit much. They may not cost you much over the cost of the materials.

I would use my Fuji mini mite 3 HVLP set to spray Resisthane tinted white (assuming that is what your daughter wants). You could paint an entire kitchen with primer (I use the special one sold by Hood finishes for Resisthane) and two coats of tinted Resisthane in a day. The finish is water borne so cleanup is simplified. An Earlex HVLP would probably work too.

When I made my kitchen years ago I did it a cabinet or two at a time. My wife was patient and put up with this. So it took months. I did not have a dedicated shop so the alternative would have been to leave the cars out of the garage until I was done. You might want to break things down like this. Uppers are not as bulky as lowers, you might want to start there first. They also don't have to be 12 inches deep. I think Ikeas are a little deeper now - could be a way to gain space.

[Charles Coolidge]

In related news I opted for soft close hardware on drawers (3/4 maple dovetail they are heavy) and raised panel Hickory cabinet doors. The soft close hardware is still holding up nice 11 years later. My shelves are also 3/4 inch thick ply.

I have to admit also, the cabinet making pro's have me totally out classed. They did incredible work for a reasonable price. Now there's two things I don't DIY, plumbing and kitchen cabinets.

[jack dempsey]

Rob, Thanks for the information. I am leaning toward maple for the face frames as that is the style I will of with. Good tip on the imported sheet goods. I am fortunate that I believe there is a good supplier of sheet goods about a 1/2 hour away.

[Patrick Varley]

Around here painters charge, roughly, by the door/drawer. $150 for each one regardless of size. If hand painting is an option you can typically get it done cheaper.

Also worth noting is that high quality cabinet paint can also be hard to get. I use sherwinn williams emerald urethane and it comes out great but is commonly sold out.

I'd throw out Insl-X Cabinet Coat as another paint option. I've had pretty good luck with it.

[Ron Citerone]

I used 3/4” baltic birch for my cabinet boxes and backs and I was quite happy with the ruggedness of the cabinets. I used face frames and blum hinges. I also used a 2 x4 base on the floor which was easy to level, which means the base cabinet boxes were reduced by 3 1/2” in height. You might want to have your sink ahead of time to make sure your sink base accepts your sink. I reused my sink and had some installation issues that I resolved, but could have been avoided when I built my sink base.
Good luck.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I bought the books, read the web sites, watched the videos and ended up getting Marc Sommerfeld's router bits and one of his feather boards.
I made a whole kitchen using it and a whole bunch of individual cabinets.

I can't recommend it any higher for making the whole process really stupid easy.

As far as the tooling goes:
- Track saw for cutting the carcasses (optional - but - it sure makes the whole job quicker & easier)
- 3+ hp router in a table
- Sommerfeld bits & featherboard
- Kreg pocket hole jig
- Rockler Universal Drawer Slide Jig

Before making any decision - I suggest watching the Sommerfeld videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klv0jzWD26w This is part one of three.

[Michael Rutman]

I’m making my first cabinet based on advise here (thanks everyone!). I picked up a few newbie tips.

Get a track saw. I got the TS55 and the 55 inch track. It’s a game changer. I didn’t get the square for the track and it ended up taking an extra few minutes per cut to make sure it was square. It was incredible.

1/2 vs 3/4. I kept wanting to go with 1/2 as it’s lighter and I didn’t need the extra strength. Then I noticed all the dados are 3/8 deep. That would have left about 1/16 behind the dados. I could have reduced the dado to 1/4, but then we don’t have a lot of strength holding the floor and back in.

720 Krieg. Beats the other pocket hole jigs they make. I was able to do all the holes dust free in under 10 minutes. Buy extra screws. Cabinets with pocket holes use 20-32 screws. Pocket holed face frame also, that’s about a box of 50 per cabinet.

I used a Whitehead plywood sized dado bit and wasn’t very happy. I had to run it through multiple times to get a clean cut. I have a delta 620 so it shouldn’t be an underpowered issues, but be aware that if you don’t have a clean edge you will not get that playwood to slide in nice.

What amazed me was how fast I got to a carcass. My first cabinet, on a rolling cart, double carcass, face frame, was ready to stain in about 12 hours of work. 6 of those hours were first time learning.

[Dave Sabo]

I have been building kitchen cabinets for over 3 decades. First of all, I do not recommend melamine. It is really heavy, hard to cut cleanly unless you have an scoring saw or an extremely accurate saw with super sharp blades that will wear out quickly, and will swell as much as 50% when exposed to even a slow drip.

Me too, and I think melamine can be a great material if used properly. While a scoring saw or point to point machine will excel at processing it, melamine can be cut on a good ol contractors saw with very good results if you have the right blade. I use a Freud TCG for melamine and a Forrest DuraLine with very good results. CMT and Amana also make melamine blades that should be on par with these too. Having a sharp blade for whatever you're cutting is just standard practice. A dull(ing) blade will produce crappy cuts on your plywood too. So will a blade not designed for cutting ply. Plywood will also swell if exposed to prolonged moisture. You could spec waterproof melamine if you wish. And while good quality melamine is heavier than an equivalent sized ply panel - it's not as if its a deal breaker because both really require two men or mechanical handling.

A tray like this will alleviate most moisture issues whether you use plywood or melamine for your carcass:
https://www.mockett.com/kitchen-bath-closet/pull-out-storage-solutions/undersink.html


It also doesn't hold fasteners well and doesn't glue well.

Strictly not true. If your experience is bad - you're using the wrong fasteners , glue and technique. UV coated plywood doesn't exactly present a tenacious surface for wood glue bonding.


I also recommend only American made hardware

Nothing wrong with domestic hardware. But if European hinges and undermount drawer slides are called for, then the European manuf. run circles around the domestic makes. The only issue now is that soft close runners and hinges are on allocation from the big Euro manuf. and can be difficult to procure in quantity in a timely fashion.

[Allan Dozier]

When I made a bunch of cabinets for my shop I used melamine and did frameless with edgebands. I wanted them done quick so not having to finish them was nice. But for kitchens in a nice home I would only go with face frames. My handheld edgebander works but not as well as a multi-thousand dollar commercial edgebander.
I use 3/4" ply for the boxes including the backs. I buy cabinet grade maple that comes 49 x 97" and soft maple for the face frames.
For the end cabinets I join the sides that will show with dominoes or biscuits but for the hidden sides I used Conformat screws and glue. For the 3/4 back I use pocket screws and you could use them for tops if desired. It is not worth it to me to use 1/2" backs because I would want a 3/4" nailer board and have to incorporate that anyway. No rabbets, just inset the back and screw it in.
Like Bryan said, a cut layout program is nice. I use Cutlist Plus for cutting layout. I am lucky to have a sliding saw that can handle a full sheet and use a Crazyhorse rolling cart to
handle the sheets by myself.
As far as finishing, I find paint is more forgiving than a natural finish. Any little veneer chip or joint gap can be patched. I have had great luck with SW Kem Aqua Plus sprayed with HVLP. . I raise the grain with wet rag, quick sand with RO and 220 then apply the Kem Aqua surfacer and top with the flat version of topcoat. It dries really hard and glass smooth.

[Kevin Jenness]

I also recommend only American made hardware.

Such as? Are there any kitchen hardware suppliers manufacturing solely or primarily in the US?

[Paul J Kelly]

Just to pile on,

I too like the prefinished plywood for the carcasses and I do 3/4" for the lowers and 5/8" for the uppers. I do far more drawers for the lowers than doors. so I only use pre finished on the lower cabinets with doors. Before the pandemic, you could easily find pre-finished Baltic Birch. Pleasure for cabinet builds.

I too like face frames for durability (you can make them narrow to increase door and drawer interior space). Low angle pocket screws are amazing for these - Castle TSM-12 vs. Kreg. I gave my Kreg stuff away.

Beech (steamed) is a relatively cheap ($3-$4/bf) hardwood that machines great and takes paint almost as good as MDF does. For paint grade, it is my go to - very durable and easy to work with.

On the cabinet structure - the 'plinth' or kickplates are usually just wasted space. Make them a bit taller -4" or 5" and put in a drawer in that space instead for the rarely used stuff. Cookie sheets, holiday stuff, party favors, big charcuterie boards. There are a few videos on YouTube that are really creative!

PK
PKwoodworking

[Jared Sankovich]

I'm surprised as many here suggest 3/4 backs for strength. Most of the commercial offerings are 3/8 particle board and hot glue.

[Paul J Kelly]

FWIW,

I do not do 3/4" backs.

I install 4" stretchers (same thickness and material as the carcass - usually 3/4") at the top an bottom of the back opening to keep the cabinet square and then add a thinner back if it is a door cabinet. For drawer cabinets I use no back, just the before mentioned stretchers.

Under compression 3/4" plywood will take a massive amount of weight. Tie multiple cabinet banks together and you have an immovable object.

For upper cabinets, I do 1/4 prefinished plywood for the backs. I do not mount the cabinets via the back. I make integral hardwood stretchers in the back of the uppers to mount them to studs. I do rabbet in the backs of the upper cabinets to keep them flush to the wall. Again, how you construct the carcass should not rely on the back for strength. The back keeps it square and looking nice inside. When you suspend a cabinet in the air, why add more weight? It becomes a liability.

That is my humble opinion - with lots of cabinets behind me.

PK
PKwoodworking

[Phil Gaudio]

I've posted this a number of times in the past. I built a prototype of the cabinets I was planning on building: experimented with all the various joinery and hardware. The prototype became my router table. The second photo shows one a a number of "modules" all built somewhat identically to improve the efficiency of the project. Apologies for the picture quality: had to scan 22 year old photos.
https://i.postimg.cc/5t58298c/Scan.jpg (https://postimg.cc/wtv1WpWF)
https://i.postimg.cc/bJzkDXRZ/Scan.jpg (https://postimg.cc/SXvJ3v34)

[Rob Sack]

Me too, and I think melamine can be a great material if used properly. While a scoring saw or point to point machine will excel at processing it, melamine can be cut on a good ol contractors saw with very good results if you have the right blade. I use a Freud TCG for melamine and a Forrest DuraLine with very good results. CMT and Amana also make melamine blades that should be on par with these too. Having a sharp blade for whatever you're cutting is just standard practice. A dull(ing) blade will produce crappy cuts on your plywood too. So will a blade not designed for cutting ply. Plywood will also swell if exposed to prolonged moisture. You could spec waterproof melamine if you wish. And while good quality melamine is heavier than an equivalent sized ply panel - it's not as if its a deal breaker because both really require two men or mechanical handling.

A tray like this will alleviate most moisture issues whether you use plywood or melamine for your carcass:
https://www.mockett.com/kitchen-bath-closet/pull-out-storage-solutions/undersink.html



Strictly not true. If your experience is bad - you're using the wrong fasteners , glue and technique. UV coated plywood doesn't exactly present a tenacious surface for wood glue bonding.



Nothing wrong with domestic hardware. But if European hinges and undermount drawer slides are called for, then the European manuf. run circles around the domestic makes. The only issue now is that soft close runners and hinges are on allocation from the big Euro manuf. and can be difficult to procure in quantity in a timely fashion.

Well, I guess I hit a nerve. So, let me be more specific. Melamine is harder to cut cleanly on both sides. I just assumed we were all on the same page about using blades appropriate for the specific material. Whatever blade you are using, it will last longer cutting plywood than cutting particle board with its higher resin content. And yes, plywood swells when exposed to moisture, as does solid wood. It's just that regular particle board swells more. As I said, a small leak produced pronounced swelling in a particle board sink base I build as per the client's insistence on melamine. The formally 3/4" white melamine panel had swelled to 1 1/8" thick (+50%). Would a tray have helped? Absolutely, which is why I always recommend them for my clients and why I use them myself.

As far as glue and fastener holding power, I have not used "the wrong fasteners, glue and technique" and I do not glue to UV coatings. But I stand by my opinion that a glued and/or screwed rabbeted or dadoed joint, using the appropriate glue and/or fasteners, will be stronger with plywood than with particle board.

As far as "American made hardware", I should have been more specific. I only use Blum or Grass hinges, plates, and undermount slides. While these companies originated in Europe and have manufacturing facilities there, they also have manufacturing facilities here in the US. And yes, supply chain issues are currently a major issue with these products.

[Kevin Jenness]

Lots of ways to build boxes. I have settled on prefinished veneer core plywood from Columbia or Garnica, 3/4" for decks, standards and stretchers, joined with biscuits and/or screws, 1/2" screwed on for backs. I don't like adding hanging rails, and 1/2" is stout enough for fastening yet reasonably lightweight. Ordering is simplified and waste lessened if one uses 3/4" throughout at the cost of increased weight. Melamine is ok for people with strong backs.



For what it's worth:

Grass America produces more than 40 percent of its total hardware sold and distributed throughout the United States. Distribution partners and salespeople are positioned nationwide. Today Grass America is owned by the Würth Group, an international organization based in Germany. See http://www.grassusa.com. (http://www.grassusa.com/)

Blum’s premium concealed drawer runner, TANDEM plus BLUMOTION, is manufactured and assembled in the U.S.A. STANDARD and METABOX 320M are also made in the U.S.A.

Hinge systems are assembled in the U.S. with the majority of components (steel and zinc) manufactured in our Austrian plants. Most plastic components are injection molded in the U.S. facilities.

[Rob Sack]

One suggestion I left out of my original post is the use of plastic leg levelers instead of a conventional toe base. Hafele has a variety of levelers in a wide range of lengths from about 2 1/2 inches to over 6 inches. We no longer make conventional toebases for the most part. The weight rating of these feet are quite high, they are easy to install, and they come with clips to snap on the toebase fronts. The two biggest advantages for me is that they are very easy to adjust and dial in exactly for leveling the cabinets without having to use shims. Also, being made of plastic and impervious to water, in the off chance there is a leak in the kitchen, bathroom, or laundry room, the toebase fronts can be easily and quickly removed to facilitate drying out any water under the cabinets, greatly reducing the chance for mold as with conventional permanent toebases. Although a bit pricey, Hafele makes an optional adjusting tool that will reach the back levelers from in front of the cabinet, although all the levelers are easily adjustable by hand. An additional, but unanticipated advantage happened about 20 years ago when we first started using them. The contractor forgot to run a water line for the refrigerator ice maker in a brand new kitchen. Had we used conventional toebases, the only option would have been to delay the cabinet install while a 1 ft. by 20+ ft. section of new drywall was remove and later patched after the new line was run. Because we had used the levelers, the space under the cabinets was completely accessible and a small hole was drilled at the back of the sink base bottom and a 1/4" copper line was tapped of the sink shutoff valve and run under the cabinets the 20+ ft. to the refrigerator.

[jack dempsey]

Phil, thanks for all of the information. I had the same thought of building a test cabinet if you will and use it in my shop. They are two great looking cabinets. Thanks for taking the time to respond and post the photos. Jack

[Dave Sabo]

Such as? Are there any kitchen hardware suppliers manufacturing solely or primarily in the US?


Liberty
K&V
Accuride

to name a few.


And curiously enough, the Austrian co. Blum manufactures stuff in N. Carolina.

[John Goodin]

I am in the process of building a paint grade double vanity out of maple. Many drawer slides are on back order so you may want to order those early. As far as painting, I have a Graco X5 airless and have painted several houses of doors and trim and it is simple to get a smooth, professional quality finish. If you use pre-finished ply for the case then you just have to paint the drawers, doors and face frames. The sprayers run about 300 dollars and are small enough to not take up a lot of storage space. I am planning on using the Sherwin Williams Emerald Urethane.

[Jim Becker]

Phil, thanks for all of the information. I had the same thought of building a test cabinet if you will and use it in my shop. They are two great looking cabinets. Thanks for taking the time to respond and post the photos. Jack
Jack, that's a really good idea that can help you work things out before you commit to the kitchen while at the same time making for a prototype that's actually useful. I'll suggest you do both a base and an upper in that respect if you can use both in the shop.

[Kevin Jenness]

Liberty
K&V
Accuride

to name a few.



And curiously enough, the Austrian co. Blum manufactures stuff in N. Carolina.

Again, for what it's worth, nearly all major hardware vendors have manufacturing facilities overseas. I'm all for supporting American manufacturing, but you can't assume that a US domiciled hardware supplier makes any more of its stuff here than Ford or GM, or that a foreign brand doesn't have as much US content as Toyota or Honda.

It's not clear where Liberty Hardware is manufactured, they are headquartered in NC.

Accuride has about 1,000,000 square feet of manufacturing space in China, Germany, Japan, Mexico, the UK, and the US.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuride_International#cite_note-hoovers-2)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuride_International#cite_note-5) Its manufacturing plant in Charlotte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte), North Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina), United States closed in 2001.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuride_International#cite_note-6)

Knape & Vogt Manufacturing Company is privately held by Chicago-based Wind Point Partners and headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan. “KV” operates two
manufacturing/warehousing facilities in Grand Rapids, two in Taipei, Taiwan, and one in Petaluma, California, with supporting locations in Chicago, Illinois and Ontario, Canada


Grass America produces more than 40 percent of its total hardware sold and distributed throughout the United States. Distribution partners and salespeople are positioned nationwide. Today Grass America is owned by the Würth Group, an international organization based in Germany. See http://www.grassusa.com. (http://www.grassusa.com/)

Blum’s premium concealed drawer runner, TANDEM plus BLUMOTION, is manufactured and assembled in the U.S.A. STANDARD and METABOX 320M are also made in the U.S.A.

Hinge systems are assembled in the U.S. with the majority of components (steel and zinc) manufactured in our Austrian plants. Most plastic components are injection molded in the U.S. facilities.

[Rob Sack]

Perhaps, but more specifically you are just promoting myths, legends, bias, and outright falsehoods regarding some of these. And I don't think SMC should be fueling the " Well, I read on the internet......." generation.
So, let me re-address this first topic. Melamine IS NOT harder to cut cleanly on both sides. If your equipment is tuned and you use the DuraLine or Freud TCG for melamine you can easily get clean cuts top and bottom. It is no harder -or- easier than you getting clean crosscuts on plywood. Get the right blade and you too can have clean cuts in melamine top and bottom. Use the wrong blade and you'll get plenty of tearout in plywood. Neither of which makes one material superior to the other. If you can't get clean cuts both sides in melamine, you're using the wrong blade. Or your saw is out of calibration.

Re: the longevity. Perhaps you're correct, but I doubt it. I don't have real world data to support either side. Even if you're correct - so what. I'm supposed choose my material because it might wear my tooling less ??? Get real. Even a big factory doesn't make sheet good decisions based on this. Tooling costs and sharpening are part of the overhead. Just like the wood, hinges, and labor.



Another red herring and misleading factoid. The melamine you used swelled 50%. Almost ;). We had a piece of waterproof melamine in a jar of water for years that didn't swell one bit. Should I draw the conclusion that all mealmine is fantastic and waterproof ? Of course not. It's all in the specification. I've seen plywood bottoms de-laminate and swell at the edges under sinks too. Perhaps not 50%? I didn't measure, because at the point it's ruined - nobody really cares whether it failed 6% or 50%. It failed, they want it fixed. And at that point ply IS NOT better than mealmine because it failed less. :rolleyes:



Your opinion is certainly vaild. But I challenge you to provide data that supports a dadoed, glued, and screwed joint in ply is stronger than a glued, doweled, and confirmated melamine joint. And even if it is, the latter is still plenty strong enough to support the weight of heavy stone and concrete countertops found in kitchens and baths today. I could design and fabricate an aluminum skeleton cabinet that would be many times stronger than any plywood box design you come up with. So what ? If I advocate we start making such cabinets because they are more better, 10x stronger than ply or melamine framed or frameless - y'all would say I'm delusional. But they'd certainly be stronger. And water proof. :D



Yes, you should have. Few ,if anyone, would think that Blum and Grass are American made. Hettich and Salice have U.S. are both equal or better in quality and have U.S. operations but don't assemble or manufacture here to my knowledge. Most will equate "American made" hardware with Accuride and K&V. And given the global nature of materials sourcing it's difficult to say which is "more American" Then there would be those that debate whether a Blum tandem or clip-on assembled in the U.S. is inferior to one made entirely in Europe.

So, while saying use "American Made" hardware is a noble gesture, it's simply a feel good comment as stated.

Maybe we have different definitions "clean cut, both sides'. I consider clean cuts in melamine to include absolutely chip free cuts on both sides of the cut, top and bottom. A scoring saw is the best tool for this, but I have gotten chip free cuts on both sides with melamine, but it has required perfectly tuned machinery along with a freshly and correctly sharpened blade specifically designed for melamine. Unfortunately the high resin content of the particle board core will dull the blade faster than cutting plywood, with its much higher ratio of wood to glue.

As far as the swelling issue, a particle board core will swell more than a plywood core, unless as has been claimed, one uses waterproof melamine, which according to your jar test, doesn't swell at all. However, what is the price point and more importantly, the availability of waterproof melamine? I contacted one of the largest wholesale plywood and lumber suppliers in Southern California which I have done business with for decades,, and they don't even stock a "waterproof melamine". Also, what colors, textures, or finishes is it available in?

The notion of American made is more than "a noble gesture". It's not "simply a feel good comment". It's a show of support for American manufacturing. And by the way, unless they have reversed course in the last few years, Accuride moved at least some of their manufacturing to Mexico quite a while ago.

I refuse to use Chinese knock-offs in my shop in place of American made hardware despite the cost savings. My clientele generally does not consider particle board to to be a quality product to be used in high end cabinetry. Neither do I.

[Michael Fink]

Around here painters charge, roughly, by the door/drawer. $150 for each one regardless of size. If hand painting is an option you can typically get it done cheaper.

Also worth noting is that high quality cabinet paint can also be hard to get. I use sherwinn williams emerald urethane and it comes out great but is commonly sold out.

For cabinet paint, figured I'd share my system that's worked well (both for repaints as well as new cabinets/bare wood).

Prime with BIN Shellac (2 coats, sand between coats); this stuff is expensive, ~50-60/gallon
Color coat, EMTECH EM6500 (2 coats, sand between); this stuff is also expensive, ~70/gallon
Top coat, EMTECH EM6000 (2 coats, sanding between); you guessed it, also expensive

I'm working on cabinets with a contractor right now who used SW Urethane; I'll never do that again. Way too soft. He let them dry for a week, tried to install them, chipped all over. And the prep work he did was immaculate, sanded smooth as glass, primed (BIN). It just doesn't have the hardness (or, if it does, it takes weeks to get there). We're in the process of pulling them all back down to repair and then topcoat with EM6000. :( That's not going to be cheap or easy, I should have insisted he use the process I detailed above, but SW convinced him that their urethane would get hard enough without a top coat. Maybe someday, not but in what I consider a reasonable timeframe to be without the use of cabinets. EM6000 gets hard in a day or two, I'd leave the doors open for a week to be safe (and cabinets empty), but that's probably overkilling it.

I've also had good luck with General Finishes poly as my top coat. Getting GF paint was always a pain though, and they didn't have custom color matching, EMTECH has a full paint system, designed for air spray out of the can, and delivered to my door in a few days. Both were good though, I repainted a huge kitchen with GF as my topcoat and had no chipping or defects the ~3 years we lived in the house.

[jack dempsey]

Thanks to everyone of you for the advice and information. Great community here with folks willing to take the time to share their knowledge and experience. I have a bit of planning and information gathering to do before I make the decision to jump into this project. The saving grace here is that it is a small kitchen. Jack

[Jon Endres]

I'll add to this thread if for no other reason than to offer different materials and methods.

Built my own kitchen and vanities 15-ish years ago. Bought 3/4" and 1/2" shop-grade birch ply (unfinished) and 1/2" and 1/4" baltic birch. All cabinet boxes are 3/4" birch ply with solids sides and bottom, 4" strips on top and rabbeted in 1/2" ply backs. I cut attached toe-kicks in the boxes. I built face frames out of cherry, they are really all that ever gets seen. I did my drawers out of the 1/2" BB ply with 1/4" dadoed bottoms, glued and pocket-hole-screwed. Pocket holes are in the front facing and rear facing sides of the drawer so they don't get seen either. Finished everything with a coat of shellac (Bullseye Sealcoat) and two sprayed on coats of water-based poly.

Lessons learned (aka what I would have done differently):
- In the future I will build simple boxes and build a separate detached toekick and get it dead-level before I install boxes on top of it.
- Would not recommend the WB poly finish, it's not durable enough.
- If I were going to paint these, I would have used poplar or soft maple face frames.
- Would have spent the extra money to buy prefinished plywood.
- Find a way to make dead-accurate square and perpendicular cuts on sheet goods. I am still trying to figure this out.
- Pocket screws are great for the cabinet boxes but I probably would have done the drawers differently. Maybe solid wood and box joints or dovetails? For my own purposes they are solid and strong and work great - but they're kind of ugly. Would be great for shop cabinets I guess. I would also use self-closing slides. I bought the cheapest stuff I could get at the time because that was what the budget allowed. I spent under $8000 on my entire kitchen and that included soapstone countertops.