Considering a new tablesaw

[Dennis Jarchow]

I am considering buying a new tablesaw this spring. I am about 7 or so years from retirement and figure if I want to get a new saw, I should do it before then as I have saved up the cash. I don't have 220 in the garage so am limited to a smaller motor, though this has never been an issue for the work I have done in the 10+ years I have had the current saw. I do a fair amount of work with sheet goods and some with hardwood; though I see the hardwood ramping up once I have more free time.

My current saw is a Ridgid R4511 with the granite top and a Vega Pro 50" fence (though I have it set up for 36"). Things I like about my current saw: the granite top is great, not huge, but no rust. My Vega fence seems as good as any I have ever used. Downsides, I have to move my saw 15 feet to use it as we park a car and lawn/snow equipment in that third stall. Almost every time I move the saw, the top moves out of alignment and my miter slots and fence are off. So I have to spend 20 minutes realigning it each time I use it. I have the top's bolts as tight as they can go. It's not moving a lot, maybe 10-20 thousandths each time, but it can be towards or away from the blade, so I have to readjust the top. My saw has a Herculift mobile base, so it isn't like I am dragging it on the concrete, it is just rolling around. I would assume this isn't a problem with other saws but maybe it is. Also, the saws dust collection is not good, though I am sure I could improve it some with internal baffles and sealing.

I am considering a Sawstop PCS with the 36" T glide fence. I would try to snag the free mobile base during the spring promo and hopefully convince one of the dealers to let me upgrade it to the ICS mobile base. Configured price $3467. All the reviews on the Sawstops are very positive and the added safety feature is a bonus. After having a granite top, I am not crazy about the cast iron top, as given our humidity and temperature swings, rust seems to start the moment I shut off the tools. Dust collection is supposed to be very good. Sounds like the customer support for Sawstop is great, which is a bonus.

Another saw I am considering is the Harvey Alpha. The buzz has been strong on these and cheaper than a similarly equipped Sawstop (without the blade brake of course.) One nice thing with the Harvey is I could get the TN coated top and extension wings and in theory, rust won't be much of an issue. This seems like a huge bonus coming from a granite top. Of course, no flesh sensing blade brake. Depending on the ever-changing sales, the price would $700 or more less than a comparable Sawstop. The difference in cost isn't a deciding factor. Dust collection is supposed to be good as well. The miter gauge on these looks very nice but I already have an Incra so that isn't much of a bonus, though I could sell either the Harvey or my Incra. I doubt the customer service for the Harvey will match Sawstop. I would also have more concern about long term parts availability.

Thanks for anyone's thoughts or suggestions.

[Robert Engel]

I have a PCS with 36" fence. So far it has been excellent. The glide fence is superior to anything I've ever had.

Its the mental mistakes that get us and as we get older, our mental sharpness isn't going to get better, I'm 65 and I bought the SawStop for my wife as much as me.

[Jim Becker]

There is a recent thread relative to a community member asking about and talking about the PCS with a similar configuration as you mention including the 1.75hp motor. That member did buy it. There are multiple folks who have bought the Harvey, too, including one that ordered one in the last few days.

I happen to have a PCS in my temporary shop right now and while I'm not a fan of North American cabinet saws, being more of a slider guy, I will tell you that it's an excellent machine that's well designed and well built. Mine is used but works and looks like new, for the most part, other than having a fence that was cut down by the previous owner for good reason. I may replace the rail to get it back to 36" as I'll be needing to use this saw for at least the rest of this year until I have a building up and have more space.

[Justin Rapp]

I am on the saw stop front. $700 not being a factor means, get saw stop. As you will read all over in saw recommendations 1) cost of medical assistance is the insurance you pay up front to avoid having to pay to the surgeon 2) living life with permanent damage and 3) we all know as we get older we gain experience, which means we might work safer. But we also know as we get older, as much as we don't want to admit it, we get slower, sight isn't as good, etc. If the safer tool exists, use it. Right now, the only game in own for this kind of saw is a sawstop.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

This last summer, I sold my Rigid R4511 to a friend and bought a SawStop. In my case I did have 220 in the garage, so kicked it up (thanks wifie) to a 3 HP unit.
I don't know where you are, but in Vancouver Canada, I'm out there having learned the hard way at least once a week making sure I treat any incipient rust. I also cover the saw with plywood sheets so to lower the chances of damage.
MUCH larger table, excellent fence, and better dust collection, but NOT superlative dust collection. Better, but if I had it to do again, I would get the PCS 4" overhead dust collector rather than the over the blade with the 2" hose.
I treat my top with a light sanding, Bosheild T-9 and after it's dried, Minwax furniture polish. Not foolproof, but acceptable in the Vancouver winter with an unheated, unconditioned work space.

[Charles Coolidge]

I don't know where you are, but in Vancouver Canada, I'm out there having learned the hard way at least once a week making sure I treat any incipient rust...I would get the PCS 4" overhead dust collector rather than the over the blade with the 2" hose.
I treat my top with a light sanding, Bosheild T-9 and after it's dried, Minwax furniture polish. Not foolproof, but acceptable in the Vancouver winter with an unheated, unconditioned work space.

I'm just south of you in western WA state, smack in the middle of the rain forest. I have Boeshield T-9 on the cast iron tables at all times when not in use. When I need to use a machine I wipe off the Boeshield with mineral spirits and apply paste wax. When done I reapply Boeshield over the wax. Zero rust! I have the 4" overhead dust collector, which reduces to 3 inches, the end is telescoping. It works pretty well to meh depending on the cut. The shroud needs to be redesigned imo. There's not much suction out front where the sawdust is spewing, the shroud needs a better design. I have a 3hp cyclone dust collector driving it.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I don't have 220 in the garage so am limited to a smaller motor, though this has never been an issue for the work I have done in the 10+ years I have had the current saw. I do a fair amount of work with sheet goods and some with hardwood; though I see the hardwood ramping up once I have more free time.If at all possible - see if you can swing putting a sub panel in the garage.

At some point - sooner or later - every garage is going to need 220 to charge the electric vehicle(s) - so - you might as well get it over with and get something out of it for yourself.

When I retired 10 years ago, one of the first things I did was have a sub panel put in my garage.
I still run all 120V equipment - but - at least now I have the option to run 220V.

The magnetic goodies cast iron brings to the table will offset the liabilities of cast iron (IMHO)

[Carl Beckett]

I have a clicky thumb from a TS incident. Although the sawstop would not have prevented my injury, it reminded me how quickly unexpected things can happen. I now own a slider, but if I ever go back to a cabinet saw it will be a sawstop. It is a good saw (with safety features on top)

[James Cheever]

I have the Sawstop ICS. I love it.

You wont regret getting a Sawstop.

As Rich said, consider putting in a subpanel so you can have 220.

[derek labian]

I am considering buying a new tablesaw this spring. I am about 7 or so years from retirement and figure if I want to get a new saw, I should do it before then as I have saved up the cash. I don't have 220 in the garage so am limited to a smaller motor, though this has never been an issue for the work I have done in the 10+ years I have had the current saw. I do a fair amount of work with sheet goods and some with hardwood; though I see the hardwood ramping up once I have more free time.

I have a Sawstop PCS 3HP. I find it difficult to use for sheet goods at best, at least not if you want a perfect edge. There's not enough reference area on a big sheet. Perhaps if you have rollers or other support. My point is, you might want to consider using a track saw for your larger sheet goods; as you go into retirement, this will surely pay dividends. That aside, the Sawstop is a great saw and its best feature is the brake. That brake saved me a finger. Don't discount the safety feature.

[Mitch schiffer]

+1 for the sawstop mainly for the safety feature. I know from experience that a ts injury can easily cost more then the cost of a new sawstop. I do think the harvey has some nice features and is probably a pretty decent saw although I have never personally used one

[Matt Day]

I’d put the money or do the work yourself to get 220 in your garage. It opens up so many more possibilities with larger tools.

[Frank Pratt]

Another reason to have 240V in your shop is to run dust collection. A good DC will need 240V.

[Jim Dwight]

I have no experience with a rigid table saw but I bought a 1.75 hp PCS shortly before retiring. No regrets. I would get the thinner riving knife and some thin kerf blades but a full kerf will work most of the time. I cut 3 inch deep in hardwood when I need to but I use a thin kerf rip blade, usually, when I do. I used a full kerf for months at first but I had an issue ripping long legs of glued up softwood for a bunk bed for my grandkids and decided thin kerf works better on this saw. I think the PCS with the 1.75 may be effectively a little weaker than my previous 110V saws because of how the motor protection circuit is set up. I tripped that breaker repeatedly and my guess is my previous saws would have done better. Wood warping into the blade as it was cut was the issue.

To cut anything large (sheet or solid wood) I use my DeWalt track saw. I do not consider the DeWalt to be better than I suspect a Makita would be, probably a Kreig. There are also, now, cheaper options. I use a Evolution saw at church which has a 15A motor and takes 7.25 inch blades and it is less than $200. With a 60 tooth Freud Diablo it makes cuts as smooth as my DeWalt. So you can spend less than $500 for this tool, these days. It just makes sense to move the saw and not the wood when the wood is big. Cut quality is equivalent. Another thing I use my track saw for is getting glue up ready edges on boards. I made a 10 foot long dining room table last year and all the board edges were cut with my DeWalt. Wrestling with a sheet of plywood to put it through the table saw was never fun and it doesn't get easier with age. Much, much easier to just cut it up with the track saw - to finished size.

You may already have a DC you like but if not, my experience with the "2hp" HF DC is also very good. I use only the motor and blower of the DC and mounted it to the wall in the corner of my 1 car size shop. It sucks through an Oneida super dust deputy and discharges outside. I essentially do not heat or cool my shop so the air loss is not an issue. I have a few drops on a 5 inch snap lock piping run and use the DC for my PCS, a Jet bandsaw, my 12 inch non-slider CMS, my 8 5/8 jointer, and an old 10 inch Ryobi planner. One tool at a time.

I live in SC and it is very humid here in the summer. Rust will form on the PCS top if I have let it go too long between waxing. But a finish sander will quickly remove it and then I retreat it with Johnson's paste wax. There is no need to remove the paste wax before using the saw. I don't see rust as a big issue.

One last point. I wired my shop myself. I had to add another 20A 120V circuit for the HF DC. It would not have been any harder to add a 220V line or two. I did not do it because it is not needed in my shop. I make some big pieces but I do this as a hobby. The tools which work on 120V will do what I need to do. I had done this around 50 years when I made this decision. I am still completely satisfied with my 110V tools. I am not saying there are no advantages of 220V tools, just saying I get along just fine with 110V.

[Christopher Charles]

I also have the PCS 1.75, which I found used. The price was such that I could upgrade to 3 hp (which is ~$650 for the motor, contoller and a gas shock) and still be way ahead price-wise. I have had the parts in a cart at SS at least three times but haven't been able to pull the trigger because I can't justify the expense for the marginal improvement for me. That said, I also have a 3 hp bandsaw for thick hardwood. Otherwise have been pleased the with SS.

An upgrade to 220 now might make sense unless you are planning to move with retirement. If so, you could upgrade a PCS to 220v/3 hp then.

Best of luck.

[Dennis Jarchow]

Thanks again to all the replies. I appreciate it. One thing no one has mentioned that is at least a partial driver for an upgrade. The fact that my current saw gets out of alignment every time I move it around the garage. Is this a common problem with large and heavy saws or more related to my cheaper but heavy Ridgid saw?

[Mitch schiffer]

Thanks again to all the replies. I appreciate it. One thing no one has mentioned that is at least a partial driver for an upgrade. The fact that my current saw gets out of alignment every time I move it around the garage. Is this a common problem with large and heavy saws or more related to my cheaper but heavy Ridgid saw?

I move my saw stop occasionally maybe twice a month for a long cross cut. I have never had to readjust the saw for the original set up.

[Jim Becker]

Dennis, no, that is not normal. And keep in mind that cabinet saws are built differently than contractor's style saws and many hybrids...they are beefier and the trunnions hang from the cabinet with the trunnions and all the working parts pretty much "one unit". A quality mobile base makes moving them easy.

[Jim Dwight]

I rarely move my PCS but it has not needed to be readjusted since I originally set it up several years ago. The only adjustment I couldn't get fully "right" was the rip fence square to the saw top vertically. It can be square on the right or on the left but not both. Apparently the rip fence faces are not parallel. I rarely use the right side of the face so it isn't a big deal but my saw isn't "perfect". It is probably possible to fix this (like with a shim where the non-metal piece of the fence attaches) but not with the adjustments SawStop builds into the saw. Still a very nice saw in my opinion. I also briefly tried a large shop vac to remove dust but that did not work at all. You need a DC. The cabinet is pretty leaky so your vacuum has to be capable of moving a large volume of air. I do not think it needs to be real big, however, I think my old 1hp delta would have worked (but didn't for my jointer or planner).

[Aaron Rosenthal]

My 4511 never had that problem, so it might just be yours. Still, the PCS that replaced it was such a fantastic upgrade that I don’t mind anti rusting every so often (yet).

[Alan Lightstone]

No issues with alignment on my ICS. Nor would I expect there to be. Very rarely move it. I can talk all day about the safety issues, but we've all heard that enough.

I would definitely go for a sub-panel and 220V for your workshop for the reasons that have been stated above. It will be money very well spent, and allow you to buy once/cry once on machinery. I'm very happy I went with a more powerful saw. I think a 3HP PCS would be a very welcome step up from a 1.75HP version. I think you would appreciate that upgrade many times over the years. But again, need that 220. Also would allow far more capable dust collection.

[Robert Engel]

Adding a 220 outlet shouldn’t be difficult especially if the panel is in the garage. If you don’t have space for a breaker, what I’ve done in the past is convert 110 breakers to split or 1/2 breakers to free up some space.

If you can swing a PCS you’ll be going from a VW Beetle to a Porsche Boxster ;-D. Personally I wouldn’t want to wrestle a PCS on casters, but if your a strong young man it’s no problem.

A more practical solution for you might be a 1.75 HP SS.

[Frank Pratt]

[QUOTE=Robert Engel;3171490Personally I wouldn’t want to wrestle a PCS on casters, but if your a strong young man it’s no problem.

A more practical solution for you might be a 1.75 HP SS.[/QUOTE]

It's a piece of cake and I am not a strong man. I doubt you'd be able to tell whether it was 3HP or 1.75HP when moving it around.

My personal experience is that I've never wished I had less than 3HP, but there's a whole bunch of times I've been happy to have 3HP.

[Dennis Jarchow]

Thanks to everyone for the replies and suggestions. I appreciate it.

Problem with 240 in the garage is that the breaker panels are in the basement on the opposite end of the house (75 feet away) from the garage. The basement walls and ceiling are all sheetrocked, and the exterior walls where the panels are located are fully spray foamed. I had previously asked my friend who is an electrician about the potential for putting it in as a side job and he said "ooh that's gonna cost you by the time it is all done. You either pay me to run 200 feet of conduit and go outside the house; or you pay me to run it through the attic and you pay the drywall guy to fix all the drywall I gotta cut out". If I have to cut something the smaller motor can't handle, I have friends or the local maker space that have 3+ hp saws.

[derek labian]

Thanks again to all the replies. I appreciate it. One thing no one has mentioned that is at least a partial driver for an upgrade. The fact that my current saw gets out of alignment every time I move it around the garage. Is this a common problem with large and heavy saws or more related to my cheaper but heavy Ridgid saw?

I have an ICS base but I don't think thats relevant. I move it all the time, including multiple times a day. I've not had any issue with alignment and I'm not even sure how that would happen.

[Dennis Jarchow]

My saw has cabinet mounted trunnions and I think the top is moving slightly on the cabinet when I move the saw by the top or fence rails. The top is held on by 4 hex key bolts into threaded inserts in the granite top. I have tried to tighten it down tight but never went crazy for fear of pulling the insert out or cracking the granite.

[Derek Meyer]

I had electricians at my house yesterday for an inspection, so I asked them for a quote on a 125 amp subpanel (20 spaces) in my garage. They quoted $4000 for the panel and the hookup. For reference, the electrical in my house comes in at the farthest point from my garage, so they need to run about 90 feet of wire between the main panel and subpanel. I believe they said this required either 1/0 or 0 copper wire, or 3/0 aluminum. They would have to run the wire up the side of the house and into the attic, then across the attic and down into the garage. Once the panel is in I could either install the circuits myself or hire them out.

I want a 125 amp panel because my long-term goals are to have a minisplit, dust collector and air compressor, along with some 240V tools like my Sawstop and maybe a jointer/planer combo or a shaper. I currently only have a single 240V circuit in my garage so I'm limited on the larger tooling I can have, at least if I want to run more than one machine at a time.

[Jim Becker]

Derek, I'd suggest you get some additional quotes for that work. $4000, even with the wire run you mention is "a whole bunch of money". The panel and breaker to feed it is under $200, so the rest is just wire and labor.

[Frank Pratt]

As an electrical contractor I can tell you that, unless there are some particularly horrible conditions involved, the price they gave you is quite high. See if you can get a couple of other quotes.

[lowell holmes]

I use push sticks when using my 10" Delta saw. They are made of plywood and are 10''x 1/2". My hands never get close to the blade.

[Frank Pratt]

I am considering a Sawstop PCS with the 36" T glide fence. I would try to snag the free mobile base during the spring promo and hopefully convince one of the dealers to let me upgrade it to the ICS mobile base.

I got my PCS during a spring promo from Lee Valley. I got the ICS base & they gave me credit for the cost of the PCS base.

[Chris Sonego]

That’s the “I don’t want that job” price.

[Rod Wolfy]

Thanks to everyone for the replies and suggestions. I appreciate it.

Problem with 240 in the garage is that the breaker panels are in the basement on the opposite end of the house (75 feet away) from the garage. The basement walls and ceiling are all sheetrocked, and the exterior walls where the panels are located are fully spray foamed. I had previously asked my friend who is an electrician about the potential for putting it in as a side job and he said "ooh that's gonna cost you by the time it is all done. You either pay me to run 200 feet of conduit and go outside the house; or you pay me to run it through the attic and you pay the drywall guy to fix all the drywall I gotta cut out". If I have to cut something the smaller motor can't handle, I have friends or the local maker space that have 3+ hp saws.

I retired a year ago. I had the same wiring in my house (garage was designed downstairs at the other end of the house, but converted to a bedroom when they built the new garage at the other end). I had 125' conduit run around the house to a 60amp 220 panel in the garage, at the beginning of COVID.

I have a 3hp PCS w/ 36" fence (& track saw for sheet goods). My saw moves easily on Industrial base. Do not get the other, $275 base, as it makes it harder to move the saw. No alignment issues at all when moving. You just put some air in the jack (built into the Industrial base) with a couple of presses with the toe and the saw will turn around in place (if there's nothing to interfere). The 220 panel allowed me to put in several 20amp 110v drops & 220v drops via the ceiling. I put in four 220v drops: ceiling mounted heater, 5 hp bandsaw, dust collector and one for the SawStop.

I got the SawStop kind of as insurance against an accident. As I spend more time in the shop and I'm more accident prone as I age and I heal so slowly, it might help with an accident. I also put Jessem rollers on the fence.

[Derek Meyer]

There are a couple of other electrical contractors I am going to ask for quotes, including one that does heating and electric, so they could to the minisplit and panel at once. That might save some money.

I have the industrial base for my Sawstop. I looked at one with the standard base and concluded that it would never last if I moved the saw very frequently. Indeed, the demo unit I saw had a broken standard mobile base. The industrial base is amazing and well worth the extra money.

[Bryan Hall]

If you want the safety feature, then it's really no contest.

However...

I would be looking at the table and the fence to make my decision. The most attractive thing about Harvey in my mind is the 31.5" depth on the main table. I believe the PCS is 27"? ICS is 30". I also think another user here posted that the Harvey table has a full 14" from edge of table to start of the blade when it's fully raised. I, personally, really value that space. For the fence: I greatly prefer the euro style fence. Having used one in the past, it drives me nuts not having one on my Sawstop. I'm convinced someone must make an aftermarket euro style fence for the sawstop, but I haven't found it yet.

[Charles Coolidge]

Digging into the Harvey specs I was about to compliment them on some innovative features (there's some cool stuff) but THEN I read this, "Basically Stainless Steel, 6061 T-6 anodized aluminum alloy..." what are they smoking? Let's just say that's a wild exaggeration. lol Then there's the "Aircraft grade" buzzword to describe 6061 aluminum. lol 6061 is a good but common lower cost alloy. Now 7075 is used in aerospace as it's superior in strength to 6061. When a manufacture (and many do) start spewing BS and exaggerating it's a big turn off.

[Frank Pratt]

Ya, "aircraft grade", "military grade", "aerospace grade"... Do these marketing wanks really think that those overused BS buzzwords convince anyone to guy their product?

It's real shame when product designers & engineers build a great product & then marketing cheapens it with their mis and disinformation slapped all over the package.