Grizzly 1023RLW vs Harvey Alpha HW110TC-36P

[Jim Luton]

I have to order a new TSaw very soon, and I'm torn between these 2 saws. I was sorry to hear about Chris Sonego's trials and tribulations with his Grizzly purchase, as I had just about decided on the 1023 as a solid, very basic machine. The Harveys look nice, with what appear to be good features, but I've never seen one in person, and there's precious little feedback out there. As a point of reference, I'm a retired professional woodworker, just relocated to rural Va. I spent the last 35 years in NYC as a custom woodworker. My last industrial saw was a Felder KF700S, but I worked on Altendorfs, Martins, and of course Unisaws, etc. I now have a small 24 x 27 shop, and a basic cabinet saw will suit me fine.

So, any opinions out there regarding the two, including shipping issues? The Harvey is a little more $$ and shipping is more also. I have had two Grizzly 17" bandsaws, which compared very favorably to my Minimax MM16 at 1/3 the price. Good, basic machines.

Thanks very much in advance!

[Charles Coolidge]

Started liking the Harvey but then looked at the trunnions.

472289

472290

[Chris Sonego]

What’s the problem with the trunion mounting bolts?

[Jim Luton]

Started liking the Harvey but then looked at the trunnions.

472289

472290


Charles, are you saying that the Harvey trunnion mounting is too narrow? The Grizz spreads the load out to the 4 corners of the cabinet? I took a look at the exploded parts diagram, and it looks like that is the case. The 4hp Harvey has a different trunnion which looks wider. It also has a vertical lift via dovetail ways rather than the typical worm drive. Its about the same price (for a short while) as the 3hp version, but a month longer back order.
Thanks for your input.

[Patrick Kane]

I have no experience with Harvey, but the Grizzly design is time tested. The difference between the two is about $500ish? I will say, for that price increase you get a much nicer overhead guard/dust collection and the fence is nicer. I much prefer an extruded aluminum fence face. Much flatter and straighter than the crap bies fence faces. It has slightly more benefit in being pulled back to act as a stop for using the miter gauge.

I don’t think I could go backwards like you are describing.

[Charles Coolidge]

The Grizzly larger corner mounted trunnions

472298

The narrow Harvey center mounted trunnions. Note the motor hanging off to one side then think about how to brace that weight.

472299

[Charles Coolidge]

It also has a vertical lift via dovetail ways rather than the typical worm drive.

BOTH the Harvey and Grizzly use worm drives and dovetail ways. Here's the Harvey

472300

Here's the Grizzly dovetale ways

472301

[Charles Coolidge]

With trunnions out of the way, I mentioned I was liking the Harvey so let me rip into the Grizzly with dislikes.

1. The Harvey has slightly thicker tables 1.83 inches thick vs 1.75 inches on the Grizzly. AND the Harvey table is 31.5 inches deep vs only 27 inches on the Grizzly. That's 4.5 inches more table depth.

2. Worse, it appears the router table extension on the Grizzly is only 1.5 inches thick so not even as thick as the main table or left extension wing. Plus why even offer a router table extension today that does not accommodate a router lift? I dub the Grizzly router table extension wing useless.

3. Seriously Grizzly why didn't you grind the rail like the G0696X which has ground flat rail surfaces on the top and front?

4. Grizzly are you short on chrome or something you have the nice rounded handwheels but cheap out on the chrome plating? Look at the G0696X hand wheels.

5. The dust collection port on the Grizzly is retarded. Look up inside there, they choke off half the 4 inch port for the hose up to the blade shroud. The Harvey looks a touch better design but still divides the 4 inch port.

Back to the Harvey

1. What's up with the cheap plastic looking lock knobs on the tilt and height hand wheels?

2. Well at least you ground the front of the fence rail, not the top though like on the G0696X.

3. Those are pretty cheap looking handwheels by the way, note the better quality on the 1023 and even better on the G0696X.



Both the Grizzly 1023 and Harvey need to adopt the flat head counter sink rail bolts used on the G0696X and Sawstop ICS saws. I was a bit concerned about the 1.5 inch table thickness on my ICS 5hp, until I tightened all the flat top counter sink rail bolts, that ties the extension wings in rock solid with no flex.

[Mike Kees]

I have a friend who is a former employee of mine that has a grizzly 1023. First I will say I have extensive experience with Unisaws, somewhere around 25 years on the one in my shop as well as buying ,repairing and selling at least three or four more. The Grizz is an excellent saw that gives up nothing to a Uni. It reminds me of a general 350 for the smoothness of it running and cutting. I have zero experience with a Harvey, never even seen one.

[Paul Haus]

I can't speak to the Harvey but I do have a Grizzly G1026 cabinet saw (pre riving knife model) for I'm guessing 10+ years now. Quite frankly I didn't like the blade guard on it, it just wasn't too useful IMO. I spent a couple of years working with the oem guard then decided I wanted to upgrade to an overhead arm guard. I looked at a bunch of them and even bought a Uniguard and was not happy with it. I finally designed and built my own modular guard and it's been much more useful than any of the others I tried or looked at. I have both the blade guard portion of the Uniguard I can use or a Whale Shark basket that I have set up with dust collection, it's modular so they are interchangeable. I picked up a push-pull splitter from someone on one of the forums that was making them and now I'm very satisfied with the guards and use them. This saw is much like the new ones AFAIK with the exception the newer ones have the riving knife.
I've also made a few other changes to my saw, like a vertical fence extension and an extended mobile base with provisions for a storage cabinet. Each was an improvement to the saw but would apply to most any cabinet saw.
Other than the updates I've made to my saw I have not had any other issues with it. They were all for convenience and have been good from my standpoint.

[Mitch schiffer]

If you haven't already seen it "stumpynumbs" does a walk around/review on the harvey. I am not sure if he is sponsored or not as it did seem overly positive. I do like the larger table size. I had a general 350 and now have a saw stop. I believe the general table size was similar to the harvey and the ss is similar to the grizzly. I do think harvey makes some decent tools and have been gaining more traction in the market. I ordered a Harvey bandsaw but have not received it yet. I bought the ss after cutting a figer off and spend more then the cost of the saw in medical bills If I were looking for a new saw and the safety feature wasn't important I would choose the harvey over the grizzly.

[Bruce Page]

Jim, Harvey is relatively new to the market so info is a little scarce. There are a few members here that have Harvey machinery and the opinions I have read are positive, overall.

Here’s a link to recent review on the Alpha:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?291149-Harvey-Alpha-HW110S-36-Review

[Alex Zeller]

Just a quick note about trunnions. My PM66 has trunnions similar to the Harvey. I don't recall anyone saying that the problem with the PM66 is it's trunnions. My biggest problem with the Harvey is parts. Like or hate Grizzly they do seem to keep plenty of parts in stock for older machines. Try finding much of anything for a PM66 now. With Harvey I don't see the company folding since they make equipment for a number of brands. But if their saw isn't identical to saws they make for other brands will they carry the trunnion of one wears out 10 years from now?

[Jim Luton]

I keep getting booted out and losing posts. It says I'm not logged in??

I just wrote a lengthy response to all the comments on this thread, and my login expired while I was putting it together. Lost everything. Grrr.

I'll try this again. Thanks for all the responses to my post. I do appreciate the thoughtful comments.

Charles Coolidge’s comments got me looking closer at the parts diagrams and layout of the two saws. I do appreciate the wider stance of the Grizzly trunnion mounts. I think the Grizzly is likely a more robust saw, but I also think the Harvey is built pretty well. The 3 hp Harvey has a swing up trunnion on a worm drive, but the 4 hp Harvey and the Grizzly have vertical lift dovetail ways. Harvey sells a thin kerf riving knife for their saws. I don’t see one for that model Grizzly. Grizzly has cheap zero clearance insert blanks. Harvey’s is pricey. I’ve always made my own form MDF or PB, with flat head screws underneath for leveling. Seems like I can do the same for either saw, with appropriate cutouts for riving knife and quick release guard (Harvey).

The guard is definitely better on the Harvey, with some dust collection. I’d probably just take the Grizzly guard off. At some point, I’ll add a good over arm guard with real dust collection. I had an old Excalibur overarm guard on a Robland slider that worked pretty well. I sold that with the Robland when I bought the Felder. And I hear you about “going backwards”. But I don’t have the space or budget for a slider. I’m retired and don’t mind things taking a little longer to do. I feel fortunate to have my snug, heated shop just out back. It is harder to get deliveries than the old NYC shop with loading dock, though.

As for the router table, the Grizzly pretty much matches what I have now. I have to use the router table from the front of the table saw, rather than from the end of the extension, because my jointer is tucked into the end of the saw. See pic below. I use the router table occasionally for small profiles, but for real joinery and pattern stuff etc., I use the shaper and stock feeder, I have an old Bridgewood shaper, and just bought a Grizzly 1hp stock feeder. I haven’t had a chance to use it much yet, but it replaced a Bridgewood 4 wheel feeder that died. I’ve done lots of work on that old shaper. If I were to go with a full blown router table with lift, I’d use a stand alone unit anyway. It would still pay to keep the router on the table saw set up with a chamfer bit or some such, for frequent use, or for trimming edgeband, say. I’m not likely to buy some $1,000 router table.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/248479800_10223576309333637_671948120091605688_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_eui2=AeFIRwxytYlxAn_vqXF1JzRjJUslvivsEMklSyW-K-wQycc6CvRkK87Sk05Qd54M2VQ&_nc_ohc=a6CyWg_M4UAAX8q-a6N&tn=5x0pERYzLrlbg_ro&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT-Zb4Oe3GgmDz2ytRFK2ZSgoVSKBDI940lmPyFEe3LGnw&oe=61F42BF8

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/249381775_10223576312533717_6541738493897742494_n. jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_eui2=AeEr5To6qeu-nbvs3gmsuZ8aY5zjw4U-DdFjnOPDhT4N0coHJthK3QHJBE-tHfvOHeY&_nc_ohc=BSOwJiTY4JkAX-KxAsm&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_l3SHTCtxwOMZQ1jxrRihJHiSO7yyPKRM7DPR_EX6Z 8g&oe=61F55839

I did look at Saw Stop. Besides being more expensive, one dealer recommends buying several additional cartridges (at $100 + per). Is it that sensitive? I guess I’d also need a few extra $200 blades as well. Not going there, but I do respect that people really like the safety feature.

The Grizzly 1023 RLW is $2,425 plus $239 shipping. In stock now.
The Harvey 110TC-36P (3hp) is $2,549 plus $359 shipping. Shipping Jan. 30 (from China?)
The Harvey 110S-36P (4hp) is $2,579 plus $359 shipping. Shipping Feb. 30. I likely won’t see that until the end of March This price is good for just a few more hours, I believe. Trying now to find out.

[Jim Luton]

Logged out, cleared cookies, and logged back in. Looks like it's working.

[Earl McLain]

"The Harvey 110S-36P (4hp) is $2,579 plus $359 shipping. Shipping Feb. 30. I likely won’t see that until the end of March This price is good for just a few more hours, I believe. Trying now to find out."

Might want to have them double check the shipping date as well. February doesn't get a 30th even in Leap Years.

Good thread, good info present on multiple fronts!!
earl

[Mike Kees]

Jim I really like your shop. Looks like a space that really gets used. Hope whichever way you go on the saw choice that you end up happy with your choice. If used is any consideration a Unisaw, General 350 ,650 or a Powermatic 66 would all be great saws as well.

[Jim Luton]

"The Harvey 110S-36P (4hp) is $2,579 plus $359 shipping. Shipping Feb. 30. I likely won’t see that until the end of March This price is good for just a few more hours, I believe. Trying now to find out."

Might want to have them double check the shipping date as well. February doesn't get a 30th even in Leap Years.

Good thread, good info present on multiple fronts!!
earl

Ha! Typo. Should have said Feb. 20!

[Charles Coolidge]

Just a quick note about trunnions. My PM66 has trunnions similar to the Harvey. I don't recall anyone saying that the problem with the PM66 is it's trunnions.

PM66 and Harvey are not comparable imo.

Older USA PM66 trunnions

472328

Newer USA PM66 trunnions

472329

[Charles Coolidge]

one dealer recommends buying several additional cartridges (at $100 + per) Is it that sensitive?

No, that dealer is a moron. Now one feature on the Sawstop ICS is you can disable the safety feature temporarily when needed. If you are cutting wet wood say or wood that might have a staple or nail that might trigger the cartridge.

[Curt Harms]

I keep getting booted out and losing posts. It says I'm not logged in??

I just wrote a lengthy response to all the comments on this thread, and my login expired while I was putting it together. Lost everything. Grrr.



I have an original G1023 I think, bought it in 1996 or 1997. It came with an absolute crap JetLock knockoff fence which didn't even get mounted. I already had a Mule Cab fence on a Craftsman contractor saw, it got moved to the new saw. Crap fence got sold with Craftsman saw. My 1023 has not been heavily used but has been fine, the only thing I've had to repair/replace is a button on the starter.

Re the problem with getting logged out. Sawmill Creek disconnects after a certain period of inactivity, it seems like around 30 minutes. Creating a new post is inactivity as far as the timer goes. If I'm creating a lengthy post, I create it in a word processor and save as text, not the default file format. Then log into Sawmill Creek and copy/paste the text and insert pictures. I find this procedure best for lengthy posts on most forums, not just Sawmill Creek. SWMBO is fairly active online and she was proficient at 'losing' posts she was creating. I finally got her to use the create offline then copy/paste procedure. She doesn't 'lose' posts anymore.

[Chris Sonego]

IMHO, trunions are non-issue. As long as they’re cabinet mounted then good to go. Laguna trunions are aluminum, and as far as I know, they hold up fine. I think we are getting a bit nit-picky here.

We are doing woodworking with these machines, not running demolition derby’s.

[Mike Kees]

Chris I would not agree with that. The smoothest running saws that I have ever used have massive cast iron trunnions. (General 350) and close second Grizzly 1023. If the overall strength and mass of trunnions was not important then we could all be happy with Delta contrator saws. Bigger equals heavier and means more vibration dampening ,all good things in a cabinet saw.

[Myles Moran]

I did look at Saw Stop. Besides being more expensive, one dealer recommends buying several additional cartridges (at $100 + per). Is it that sensitive? I guess I'd also need a few extra $200 blades as well. Not going there, but I do respect that people really like the safety feature.


I don't have any extra brakes for mine - I bought a dado brake and have been using the stock brake since I bought it. Maybe 500 BF has made it through that saw since I bought it with no issues or false trips.

If I was a production shop I'd consider extras on hand so I'm not losing money after a trip waiting on a new brake, but as a hobbyist, if I trip the brake, I'm probably done working for the day and can stop at woodcraft for a new one.

A lot of people who use Forrest blades will send them back after a trip and for a small fee Forrest will sharpen, flatten and inspect the blades. Other quality blades I'm sure could have similar work done, but I don't know the details as I have Forrest blades in my shop. Similar to the brake, if I trip it, I'll deal with the blade afterwards since I'm not losing money not having a spare.

[derek labian]

I did look at Saw Stop. Besides being more expensive, one dealer recommends buying several additional cartridges (at $100 + per). Is it that sensitive? I guess I’d also need a few extra $200 blades as well. Not going there, but I do respect that people really like the safety feature.

As Myles said, if your using a SS and you trip a brake, your done working until you can get another one. It doesn't sound like a pain until it happens. Then your happy you have it. I keep an extra brake and blade. If I send my primary blade off for sharpening, I use the backup. I still get the long term use of the blades.

I went through a few blades and brakes on my SS PCS. Its not just fingers that can blow your brake, but very wet wood or types of metal. I wouldn't call it sensitive and it has a test mode. If you blow a blade on a finger, you'll be happy you blew the blade and kept the finger. The saftey features are worth the cost, compare those savings with one trip to the ER or the long term consequences.

[Michael Drew]

I do not believe Harvey saws are made in China, but I could be mistaken.... When I was looking at table saws a few weeks ago (prior to committing to a Hammer slider), my research lead me to SS ICS or Harvey 4hp saws. Both with sliding tables and their respective over-blade guards. Both machines appeared to have similar build quality, similarly positive reviews, and both had good customer support. The PM66 however, not sure what's going on with PowerMatic, but the company might be going through some kind of internal shuffle? There is a fair amount of disgruntled 'new' owners. One thing the Harvey offers that is unique, and appealing to me (maybe not others), is their Tin coating. I spend a fair amount of time fixing rust spots on my cast iron tables. It isn't exactly cheap though, so it may not be worth the price adder.

[Jim Luton]

Well, the Harvey 4hp went up $300 overnight. After thinking for awhile, I've decided I want a 36" rather than 32" like the G-1023. 52" is too big for my space. The GO941 is a 36, and pretty much the same saw as the 651. I think the fence on the 1023 is better, and the dust shroud should keep the cabinet cleaner, plus the trunnion assembly appears beefier. The dust port on the 941 is on the left side as opposed to the rear. Not great for my setup, as I have to go 180 deg. to the left.

You guys have me thinking now about the SawStop. I believe there is a 3hp-36" machine at Woodcraft 60 miles away. It looks like the saw ships horizontal (says the manual), so I might be able to get it into my Explorer and save shipping (though I have to get it out somehow at the other end). The fence looks decent. How is dust collection? Port is in the rear, so that is good, but no dust shroud? That's good, or bad, depending on your point of view. I'm looking over some videos, will keep you posted.

Curt Harms, I usually write posts in text edit, copy and paste, but I didn't on that lengthy post. This forum is identical to the WoodenBoat Forum, and that's where I learned that trick, after losing posts that I spent an hour doing. Plus, I keep all the texts in a folder for reference. Of course the one time I don't...

Thanks again everyone for posting!

[derek labian]

How is dust collection? Port is in the rear, so that is good, but no dust shroud? That's good, or bad, depending on your point of view. I'm looking over some videos, will keep you posted.

It's not bad, but I couldn't speak compared to the Harvey. I don't look inside the case and the blade guard dust collection works well enough. The thicker the wood, the worse the collection is. When cutting 6/4 wood on a sled, I have to leave the shop to let the air clear out or wear a mask.

Low suction generally on the blade guard collector. Many people adjust the connection to the 4" for better air flow. The nicer floating dust collection has better reviews. I didn't get it because of how it interferes with the optional router table attachment.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, folks have reported success with calling Harvey on the phone relative to getting a better price.

[Charles Coolidge]

This thread needs more Sawstop photos!

472416

[Chris Sonego]

I agree with that but there is a point of diminishing return. The Harvey 2hp (which is what I ordered btw) nets out at 411 lbs. I really doubt that vibration will be an issue. Before owning a PM66, I had a Jet contractor saw. It was a good machine that performed very well. Every bit as accurate as my PM and it certainly didn’t have vibration issues. Those saws were almost 20 years ago when I got out of the craft.

Getting back into WW today, it appears to me that most machinery for the average home woodworker is way over kill with the exception of the the SS brake feature. Again, back in my day, my contractor saw reliably produced exactly same results as my American made 600lb PM66. My reason for the upgrade back then was that I got a smoking deal on the powermatic and it had a cast iron sliding table.

[Chris Sonego]

Same thing happened to me. I contacted them (answered the phone on third ring) and they honored the price.

[Bruce Mack]

This thread needs more Sawstop photos!

472416
Be still, my Heart.

[Darrell Bade]

That salesman is crazy on the brakes. I am still using the original brake from when I bought the saw in 2008. I don't keep a spare, like others have said if it trips I'd walk away for awhile and go get a new brake, at least if it was my finger that tripped it, if it tripped for another reason I might wish I had a spare.

[Jim Luton]

Alright, I've pretty much decided on the Sawstop PCS. Not so much for the safety brake, though I admit it's a plus. I was as annoyed as everyone else when that first came out, with the tactics used, but the saw has proven to be good, with plenty of units out there over 15 years or so. A big plus for me is that I can go pick it up, tomorrow in fact. It ships laying down, so it fits in the back of the Explorer. I can offload down a ramp of beams directly onto the shop floor. I'm getting a mobile base (the cheap one) so I can move it by myself. Shipping freight here is a problem, as a tractor trailer rig can't easily fit down my long, private road, and turning around is a problem, so I have them come to the Dollar General parking lot, to offload onto a flat bed trailer, then I have to get the machines off the trailer, etc. As long as there's no damage when I pick it up (at Woodcraft) I can get it to the shop in good shape.

There is a demo model set up in the store with sliding table and overarm dust collection. I can have a close look and bail if it doesn't seem good, but I think it will prove to be adequate.

The saw I'm using now is the first saw I ever bought, new in 1981. A Rockwell contractors saw, and still have receipt from Pleasants Hardware in Richmond. I actually built two Park Ave. kitchens on that saw when I first set up my shop in Brooklyn, NY. Once I got going, I bought a used Robland short stroke slider from Laguna (complete w/ all the customer service issues you've probably heard about). Then the Felder. I built a steel frame for the Rockwell with wheels, bolted on a Biesmeyer fence, and moved the little Rockwell out to our boat building shop on Jamaica Bay in Brooklyn. I built a 23' power boat with that saw (and a Grizzly bandsaw, Powermatic jointer, and Rockwell planer). It's paid it's dues over 40 years, but it is on it's last legs. I can't do decent work with it any more. But in a flash of inspiration, I've decided to use it as an assembly bench, stand alone router table, and crosscut support for the sawstop. Same height, Biesmeyer fence, etc. And it rolls around. If I trigger the safety on the new saw, I can still plug it in and do some cutting. It doesn't owe me dime, as they say, I'll post pics when I have the new saw up and running. In the meantime, here's a couple of pics of the boat I built with the old saw.

http://jimluton.com/pc23/run2

http://jimluton.com/pc23/jim3

http://jimluton.com/pc23/rubrailcove2.jpg
This is the little Rockwell inside our shipping container shop. Working a shallow cove on the backside of the rubrail.

http://jimluton.com/pc23/coamingstbd
The cockpit coaming.

Sorry for the digression, just wanted to pay tribute to the little saw. RIP.

[Jim Becker]

Sounds like a good plan and with immediate availability...a real winner! I can't really say anything bad about the PCS I have in my temporary shop. it's a good tool and would be that way regardless of the safety feature.