Relocating: South Dakota?

[Michael Drew]

I am hoping there might be some SD residents here, or maybe others who know the state?

I'm sorting through my options of finding a suitable place to relocate to and retire within the next 24 months. I have lived all over the country, but my driver's license has been AK since I first got it. I grew up in Montana, with summers working on the family ranch in Nevada. I like rural areas, and detest excessive traffic lights. A handful are OK, but every block? - no. City life is not for me. Traffic jams are not for me. But I also want to be close to amenities and supplies. Within an hour's drive at any rate. I like and enjoy the arts, but am in no way "woke". My political views are pretty much dead center, with a general dislike of extremes in either direction.

I spent five years looking for a spot to build a retirement home on (and a workshop). My criteria was a climate with four seasons (mellow winter) at least one acre of land, no dirt road journeys to my property, and an unobstructed water view. Ocean, lake, or river - in that order. Ended up buying a lot in southern Colorado about three years ago on a small lake. At the time, "nice", (quality - not luxury) building costs were roughly $250 per square foot. Seemed high at that time, but that's what I budgeted for. Now, I'm being told to budget for $400. That does not include the land or any other fees, costs in prep. And, if I could afford $400 per foot, I can't get anyone to commit to building the thing. I can't even get a surveyor to commit for TOPO work before July. Architects, nope, so now I'm drafting the thing myself. This area of the state has gone nuts. COVID has created an environment where folks can work remote, so many big dollar earners from Cali that can work on Zoom, but don't want to deal with Cali craziness, have found this place. It's only a matter of time before these folks make this part of Colo just like the place they are moving from. So now I'm thinking I'll sell this lot (I am constantly being asked to sell it) and find somewhere else to relocate to.

I had planned for an early retirement at 55, build myself a dedicated work shop and learn high to fly fish. That is not happening in Southern Colo anytime soon. So now I'm looking for a piece of land again. A friend of mine said I need to look at SD. He bought some land in the Black Hills and can't stop talking about how great it is. I have not spent any time in this part of the country though. Only passing through while getting from point A to point B. Are there places where I might find a piece of land with a water view? Some trees, mountains, fishing/hunting, etc? What's the economy like? Taxes - income and real estate? How bad are the winters? I can, and have research some of this, but living there and Google searches are two very different things. Looking for thoughts/input from residents or others who have personal experience.

I plan to spend a couple weeks in a rental car, driving around this part of the country this spring. I'll expand my search grid accordingly.

[Ronald Blue]

There are many areas in Missouri that are appealing. You can be totally rural and be within a couple hours of a major airport. There are several large lakes and two major rivers. If my grandkids weren't here I'd be across the river. I know of several areas that real estate is still a bargain by most peoples standards. Another plus is there is a lot of sawmills producing native hardwoods too.

[Jim Becker]

I would imagine that SD might work for you, although winter might not be as mild as many other places farther south. In some cases, that central, northern part of the US can be colder than the more maritime parts of Alaska! But on a more positive note, sq ft cost of building should be noticeably less than in Alaska and that's a whole lot about material logistics. You can also use some good innovation for your home, such as considering quality post frame that can be super insulated even before internal walls go in. Check out RR Buildings on YouTube and the current residential build they are doing.

I do think your idea of exploring via a driving vacation is a sound idea for sure. If I were going to move to a completely different part of the country, I'd surely want to do something like that myself.

[Lee Schierer]

Having lived near the Black Hills, I can assure you that the winters there do not meet your: "My criteria was a climate with four seasons (mellow winter) at least". I don't think you are allowed to use the word mellow and Black Hills winter in the same paragraph.

[John K Jordan]

Michael,

I've spent time in much of the country, work and travel, and lived in five states. Moved to East TN in the '70s and never left. For some reason people are moving to TN from all over the country, maybe tired of frozen winters, high taxes, wildfires, dense population, I don't know. No state income or wheel tax, inexpensive land can be found especially in rural areas, mountains and lakes and rivers all around (we just sold a level building site lot on one of the best fly fishing rivers in the area), lots of culture (museums, music, theaters, etc), high in tech, low in crime, good medical care, reasonable utility cost, gas prices are currently about 30 cents cheaper than the country average and often much less. I pay no attention to the politics, no one bothers me and I bother no one. Winters are mild with several snows (I still have grass for the horses), summers are humid, spring and falls are incredible.

The terrain in East TN is generally rolling hills, low wooded mountains. This part of the country is hardwood heaven with a LOT of woodworking/woodturning activity - I have a sawmill behind my barn.
To give you an idea of the area this is the extra river lot we just sold, a view from deck at my house and my gate on a rare snow day (maybe 2-3 times/winter), and a friends place nearby (we can see the Smoky Mtns from his deck).
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BTW, I'm 72, retired at age 56, we live on a 27 acre farm with a timberframe house on a dead-end road which set us back less than a typical home in a subdivision outside a TN city like Knoxville. We have horses, llamas, peacocks, honeybees, and more. I designed and built my 24x62' shop myself, everything from ground prep to wiring the lights. We are in a rural area but still less than 3 miles from drug stores auto parts and such, 6 miles from a Walmart, etc., easy access to I-75. Knoxville with everything you can imagine is maybe 30-40 minutes away, Atlanta about 4 hrs. My house is within an 8 hr drive from Northern Florida, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, Lake Erie, St Louis, and the South Carolina beaches. You might do a drive-by if you get this far south. Or stop in an take a llama for a walk. But if you come in the spring you might not want to leave.

I took these pics around the farm late February one year:

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JKJ


I am hoping there might be some SD residents here, or maybe others who know the state?

I'm sorting through my options of finding a suitable place to relocate to and retire within the next 24 months. I have lived all over the country, but my driver's license has been AK since I first got it. I grew up in Montana, with summers working on the family ranch in Nevada. I like rural areas, and detest excessive traffic lights. A handful are OK, but every block? - no. City life is not for me. Traffic jams are not for me. But I also want to be close to amenities and supplies. Within an hour's drive at any rate. I like and enjoy the arts, but am in no way "woke". My political views are pretty much dead center, with a general dislike of extremes in either direction.

I spent five years looking for a spot to build a retirement home on (and a workshop). My criteria was a climate with four seasons (mellow winter) at least one acre of land, no dirt road journeys to my property, and an unobstructed water view. Ocean, lake, or river - in that order. Ended up buying a lot in southern Colorado about three years ago on a small lake. At the time, "nice", (quality - not luxury) building costs were roughly $250 per square foot. Seemed high at that time, but that's what I budgeted for. Now, I'm being told to budget for $400. That does not include the land or any other fees, costs in prep. And, if I could afford $400 per foot, I can't get anyone to commit to building the thing. I can't even get a surveyor to commit for TOPO work before July. Architects, nope, so now I'm drafting the thing myself. This area of the state has gone nuts. COVID has created an environment where folks can work remote, so many big dollar earners from Cali that can work on Zoom, but don't want to deal with Cali craziness, have found this place. It's only a matter of time before these folks make this part of Colo just like the place they are moving from. So now I'm thinking I'll sell this lot (I am constantly being asked to sell it) and find somewhere else to relocate to.

I had planned for an early retirement at 55, build myself a dedicated work shop and learn high to fly fish. That is not happening in Southern Colo anytime soon. So now I'm looking for a piece of land again. A friend of mine said I need to look at SD. He bought some land in the Black Hills and can't stop talking about how great it is. I have not spent any time in this part of the country though. Only passing through while getting from point A to point B. Are there places where I might find a piece of land with a water view? Some trees, mountains, fishing/hunting, etc? What's the economy like? Taxes - income and real estate? How bad are the winters? I can, and have research some of this, but living there and Google searches are two very different things. Looking for thoughts/input from residents or others who have personal experience.

I plan to spend a couple weeks in a rental car, driving around this part of the country this spring. I'll expand my search grid accordingly.

[Jim Koepke]

My home is in Southwest Washington State. There are homes close by with views of the Columbia River. To the west there are homes with ocean & river views.

Washington does get a lot of rain. Close to the coast there may be some snow.

No income taxes in Washington.

Along the southern coast your closest shopping might be across the river in Astoria, OR. Oregon has no sales tax.

The maple trees do turn colors in the fall.

jtk

[Lisa Starr]

My BIL lives in Hermosa, SD. It is fairly inexpensive, but you'll put a ton of miles on your vehicle. It takes him a hour each way to go to Rapid City, which is the nearest "real town". Also, there is nothing "mellow" about winter in SD.

[Michael Drew]

My idea of mellow is snow on ground for Christmas, but it doesn't stick around for months.......Sounds like the Black Hills might just be more or less what I want to get away from. This is looking out my LR window.....

https://i.postimg.cc/RhSJpj1m/20220123-141640.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Fd6K7CnC)

I was a bit hesitant to ask on a public forum, as I do like my anonymity, but I'm glad I did. I thought SD might not scratch the itch. My 'friend' can be a bit of a salesman. I do like the rocky mountains, which is kinda what inspired me to look at Colorado. But as I mentioned, I'm not all that confident I can pull that move off anymore.

I have not ever been to Tennessee or Missouri. I was stationed in Virginia Beach and Newport RI, and lived in New Hampshire for a year. Travelled all over the east coast. Too crowded for me, but I did enjoy my time there.

I think I might just throw some darts on the board and go for a long drive. Any particular areas of Tennessee and Missouri I should target? I might get in trouble in Tennessee though, I love a good bourbon, and it's pretty close to Kentucky......

[Lee Schierer]

My idea of mellow is snow on ground for Christmas, but it doesn't stick around for months

One more thought, Snow in South Dakota doesn't melt it wears out from blowing around all day and all night every day.

[Clifford McGuire]

We had a similar plan. I bought land in west central CO. While we saved up to break ground, the building costs were going up. Sat on that property for five years.

Then we found an existing house that checked off 8 of our top 10 wants. We sold the land, bought the house and wish we would have done it sooner.

Might there be an existing house if you are willing to compromise on a few things?

[John K Jordan]

...
I think I might just throw some darts on the board and go for a long drive. Any particular areas of Tennessee and Missouri I should target? I might get in trouble in Tennessee though, I love a good bourbon, and it's pretty close to Kentucky......

A gentleman I know did this. He said years ago he and several friends decided they would move south from their area that was getting too crowded. They got out a map and one guy closed his eyes and pointed to a spot. Turned out it was in Virginia, towards the south west. They all moved to that area and love it.

I've never tasted and know nothing about good or bad bourbon or whiskey but I read there is a controversy over which is which. I found some stuff about TN bourbon: https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-tennessee-whiskey-actually-bourbon-we-have-the-answer I know when we travel to Europe when people find out we came from TN they almost always light up and say "Jack Daniels!"

Anywhere close to the big cities of Memphis or Nasheville will be loaded with people. Chattanooga and Knoxville are significantly smaller. The areas between can be out-in-the-sticks rural or with farms everywhere. A LOT of people seem to be moving to the areas around Crossville and Cookville and friends there say the prices are rising like crazy, probably in other areas too. I'd still say take a look at East TN. Areas both east and west of Knoxville have a lot of gently rolling hills covered with farms. Take a drive through the mountains, maybe on the Foothills parkway and stop at the overlooks. You can get way out in the sticks if you don't want neighbors or fairly close to an interstate if you like to be out and about. The far east towards NC and Asheville and south can be pretty mountainous (or "hilly" if you are used to the Rockies), expensive to build on but the views can be incredible.

There is a huge amount of rural land between the TN cities. If you zoom in and scroll around the satellite pictures you can get an idea of what areas are less dense and likely to be less expensive, if that is an issue. If you want land on the water it seems sky high everywhere. For example a realtor friend told me undeveloped land along the Clinch River below Norris Lake is generally appraised at $100,000 and acre for tax purposes and that's not any where near the selling prices. Other rural land can be far less expensive, sometimes downright cheap if undeveloped. If you are looking to buy developed land with a decent and fairly new house it still will be nothing like the prices in many other states. There are lots of web sites that compare home prices in different areas and states.

I like areas in North Carolina and Kentucky too - we lived between Winston Salem and Greensboro for some years and went to school in Berea KY - both great areas, very similar to TN of course.

JKJ

[Stan Calow]

Missouri has two zones. The northern and western half (roughly) are rolling hills, plains, and very agricultural, with Kansas City and Springfield the two urban areas. The southeastern and southern half is Ozark hill country, with oak and hickory forest, springs, caves and whitewater rivers. St Louis is the gateway there. The southeastern corner (known as the bootheel) is flat Mississippi Delta country. Most people consider the Ozarks as the place to retire too. Its culturally like a remnant of Appalachia.

[Alan Lightstone]

Areas in the Smokey Mountains are nice, but starting to stray away from good medical care. Never lived in Knoxville, but medical care is excellent there and easy access to other areas with I-75 N/S and I-40 E/W. I used to drive through there monthly to my vacation house. John could tell you far more than I could, but I always thought that area had promise for a vacation home. One of my ex-partners did that, and loves it. He'll be moving there full-time when he FINALLY retires.

Chapel Hill, NC area is nice, also with top-notch medical care.

Not really four seasons weather for me in Tampa/Clearwater, FL area, but has some benefits. Decent food, and getting better, some museums, great sports teams, beautiful beaches. Much less pricey than CA, NY, NJ, but certainly not as cheap as Tennessee, SD, etc...

Avoid the rust belt areas. I lived there for 10 years, and the incredibly cheap cost of housing is more than offset by the lack of culture and mediocre food.

Put nearby quality medical care at the top of your list when choosing locations. And I'm not just saying this as a doctor. I'm saying this as a retired 62yo.

[Myk Rian]

You want 4 seasons and land.
Michigan has it. I've lived here all my life. Never considered leaving.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Don't come to central NC, unless you want to be in New Jersey / New York South. Our area is over run with those leaving these areas. In the county we live in, people are moving in at the rate of over 100 per day. 40+ years ago, we bought in one of the most rural areas of the county. Because of a nuclear plant, zoning was minimum of two acres. Closest town, of about 500 people was seven miles away. Now town has EXPLODED! 20,000+ people. Million dollar homes (on golf course) are just across the creek from us. Track of land (100 + acres) behind us is potentially for sale. Two new light industrial plants, that cover about 100 acres each are being built within two miles. Worse part is refugees from north move here, and then want to make it like where they came from. Why didn't they just stay where they were. Would the last person leaving NY /NJ turn out the lights.

[Erik Loza]

Can't comment on SD but we have friends who recently relocated to Boise and are happy there. I have family in the Tri-Cities area of eastern WA and have been there. A very nice area. These areas are in the rain shadow of the Cascades, so don't get socked in with snow like in your photos, Michael. Like Denver, I would say. Both areas staunchly "red" but not intolerant in my experience. Good luck in your search.

Erik

[Michael Drew]

Thanks once again for the input folks. I’ll try this muti-quote function to respond…….


We had a similar plan. I bought land in west central CO. While we saved up to break ground, the building costs were going up. Sat on that property for five years.

Then we found an existing house that checked off 8 of our top 10 wants. We sold the land, bought the house and wish we would have done it sooner.

Might there be an existing house if you are willing to compromise on a few things?

That would be an option, but unfortunately, home sales are every bit as nuts in this area. 2500 square foot homes on tiny lots without a view are going for 750K and up.


A gentleman I know did this. He said years ago he and several friends decided they would move south from their area that was getting too crowded. They got out a map and one guy closed his eyes and pointed to a spot. Turned out it was in Virginia, towards the south west. They all moved to that area and love it.

I've never tasted and know nothing about good or bad bourbon or whiskey but I read there is a controversy over which is which. I found some stuff about TN bourbon: https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-tennessee-whiskey-actually-bourbon-we-have-the-answer I know when we travel to Europe when people find out we came from TN they almost always light up and say "Jack Daniels!"

Anywhere close to the big cities of Memphis or Nasheville will be loaded with people. Chattanooga and Knoxville are significantly smaller. The areas between can be out-in-the-sticks rural or with farms everywhere. A LOT of people seem to be moving to the areas around Crossville and Cookville and friends there say the prices are rising like crazy, probably in other areas too. I'd still say take a look at East TN. Areas both east and west of Knoxville have a lot of gently rolling hills covered with farms. Take a drive through the mountains, maybe on the Foothills parkway and stop at the overlooks. You can get way out in the sticks if you don't want neighbors or fairly close to an interstate if you like to be out and about. The far east towards NC and Asheville and south can be pretty mountainous (or "hilly" if you are used to the Rockies), expensive to build on but the views can be incredible.

There is a huge amount of rural land between the TN cities. If you zoom in and scroll around the satellite pictures you can get an idea of what areas are less dense and likely to be less expensive, if that is an issue. If you want land on the water it seems sky high everywhere. For example a realtor friend told me undeveloped land along the Clinch River below Norris Lake is generally appraised at $100,000 and acre for tax purposes and that's not any where near the selling prices. Other rural land can be far less expensive, sometimes downright cheap if undeveloped. If you are looking to buy developed land with a decent and fairly new house it still will be nothing like the prices in many other states. There are lots of web sites that compare home prices in different areas and states.

I like areas in North Carolina and Kentucky too - we lived between Winston Salem and Greensboro for some years and went to school in Berea KY - both great areas, very similar to TN of course.

JKJ

Thanks for the informative response. I’m putting together an itinerary for a road trip using your notes to help me.


Missouri has two zones. The northern and western half (roughly) are rolling hills, plains, and very agricultural, with Kansas City and Springfield the two urban areas. The southeastern and southern half is Ozark hill country, with oak and hickory forest, springs, caves and whitewater rivers. St Louis is the gateway there. The southeastern corner (known as the bootheel) is flat Mississippi Delta country. Most people consider the Ozarks as the place to retire too. Its culturally like a remnant of Appalachia.

I’ve always wanted to visit the Ozarks. That area looks very pretty in pictures/films. Hopefully, the majority of residents are not portrayed accurately in the Netflix series “Ozark”.


Areas in the Smokey Mountains are nice, but starting to stray away from good medical care. Never lived in Knoxville, but medical care is excellent there and easy access to other areas with I-75 N/S and I-40 E/W. I used to drive through there monthly to my vacation house. John could tell you far more than I could, but I always thought that area had promise for a vacation home. One of my ex-partners did that, and loves it. He'll be moving there full-time when he FINALLY retires.

Chapel Hill, NC area is nice, also with top-notch medical care.

Not really four seasons weather for me in Tampa/Clearwater, FL area, but has some benefits. Decent food, and getting better, some museums, great sports teams, beautiful beaches. Much less pricey than CA, NY, NJ, but certainly not as cheap as Tennessee, SD, etc...

Avoid the rust belt areas. I lived there for 10 years, and the incredibly cheap cost of housing is more than offset by the lack of culture and mediocre food.

Put nearby quality medical care at the top of your list when choosing locations. And I'm not just saying this as a doctor. I'm saying this as a retired 62yo.

Thank you. Very informative. I agree with you with medical services. That is one area that is making my retirement plans more complicated. I did have plans to retire in Florida about 20 years ago. I bought 20 acres in Destine and was going to develop the land and live there. A divorce derailed that grand plan….. She got “half”.


You want 4 seasons and land.
Michigan has it. I've lived here all my life. Never considered leaving.

I have a friend who retired and moved to the Travers City area. He spent the last five years trying to convince me to move next to him. Last week he called me to show me pictures of his new home. He sold his house, and bought a new truck and fifth wheel travel trailer. They are travelling in Arizona now. They got tired of the winters. So I reckon it all depends on where one resides in Michigan?


Don't come to central NC, unless you want to be in New Jersey / New York South. Our area is over run with those leaving these areas. In the county we live in, people are moving in at the rate of over 100 per day. 40+ years ago, we bought in one of the most rural areas of the county. Because of a nuclear plant, zoning was minimum of two acres. Closest town, of about 500 people was seven miles away. Now town has EXPLODED! 20,000+ people. Million dollar homes (on golf course) are just across the creek from us. Track of land (100 + acres) behind us is potentially for sale. Two new light industrial plants, that cover about 100 acres each are being built within two miles. Worse part is refugees from north move here, and then want to make it like where they came from. Why didn't they just stay where they were. Would the last person leaving NY /NJ turn out the lights.

The exodus from Blue states to Red states is a real thing. Escape high taxes and government overreach, but then they bring their baggage with them. Montana, Arizona, Colorado and Nevada are all good examples of this phenomena in the west. Texas is next.


Can't comment on SD but we have friends who recently relocated to Boise and are happy there. I have family in the Tri-Cities area of eastern WA and have been there. A very nice area. These areas are in the rain shadow of the Cascades, so don't get socked in with snow like in your photos, Michael. Like Denver, I would say. Both areas staunchly "red" but not intolerant in my experience. Good luck in your search.

Erik

Boise has gone nuts. It has seen an invasion the past few years. Long term locals are not happy. I was looking for place to live in northern Idaho, primarily the Sandpoint area, but gave up after finding every lot I could afford was either near a railroad route or highway with heavy truck traffic. Washington, much like Oregon, have gone too far left for my tolerance level. I know this is due mostly to the coastal cities, and folks on the east side are pretty normal, but the crazy politics affects the entire state. It really is painful to watch, because I do love the west coast states.

[Jim Koepke]

Michael, we had similar thought as you before we retired. San Francisco area was just too crowded for us. One of our considerations was the milage to our health care provider.

Not much exodus traffic here other than city folks moving to the country. Most of them still have to live close to a city for the commute.

Our main feature may be a turnoff to people who do not like rain. We have mount Rainier. It sounds French the way most folks pronounce it rain-ear. But it is really rain-e-er. Same with the town across the river from us in Oregon.

Top ten wettest places in the continental United States:

The number one most rainy spot in the United States belongs to Aberdeen Reservoir, Washington on the westside of the state which averages 130.6 inches of rain. That's a whole lot of H20!

1) Aberdeen Reservoir, Washington
2) Laurel Mountain, Oregon
3) Forks, Washington
4) North Fork Nehalem Park, Oregon
5) Mt Rainier, Paradise Station, Washington
6) Port Orford, Oregon
7) Humptulips, Washington
8) Swift Reservoir, Washington
9) Naselle, Washington
10) Clearwater State Park, Washington

Read More: Washington State Owns Seven of the Top 10 Wettest Spots in the United States | https://kffm.com/washington-state-owns-seven-of-the-top-10-wettest-spots-in-the-united-states/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

Washington has seven locations listed in the top 10 rainiest places in North America. All that rain is why Washington is "The Evergreen State."

Here is a meandering rust hunt story, including a short tale of how the state got its name > http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?163796

jtk

[Myk Rian]

I have a friend who retired and moved to the Travers City area. He spent the last five years trying to convince me to move next to him. Last week he called me to show me pictures of his new home. He sold his house, and bought a new truck and fifth wheel travel trailer. They are travelling in Arizona now. They got tired of the winters. So I reckon it all depends on where one resides in Michigan?
He went to the wrong side of the state. Traverse gets lake effect snow measured in feet. All the way down the Lake Michigan shore gets it,

[Derek Meyer]

I've lived in Moscow, Idaho (North Idaho) for 31 years, and it's a great place to live. The town is about 25,000 people and the University of Idaho is located here. It is one of the bluest areas in a deep red state. Weather is 4 seasons, with snow in the winter, 90+ days in summer, rain in spring and fall. We typically run air conditioning for 2 months a year and heat for about 4. If you like fishing or want to get into it, this is a paradise, with tons of rivers, lakes, streams, etc. nearby. Cost of living is not bad (better if you're rural), and there is land available in a lot of places. We're 90 minutes from Spokane, WA, and 5 hours from Boise, Seattle and Missoula, MT.

[Michael Drew]

I drove through Moscow a couple years ago on my way to Walla Walla (one of our annual wine country trips). I remember liking the area. This comment however makes my nervous. "It is one of the bluest areas in a deep red state." I am hoping to find a place where the majority of the population is centric. Crazy progressive "woke" BS from the left is every bit of crazy as the far alt right. I want nothing to do with either of the two extreme's.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

View of the barn from our back porch. Northeast Georgia,... this area has top notch health care!

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[Michael Drew]

That 'barn' looks nice enough to live in..... Beautiful property. What do you keep in that palace, race horses? :)

[Lawrence Duckworth]

That 'barn' looks nice enough to live in..... Beautiful property. What do you keep in that palace, race horses? :)

no horse in there but I do have "keep your distance pandemic shuffle board court" and a wood lathe :)


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[Lawrence Duckworth]

You want 4 seasons and land.
Michigan has it. I've lived here all my life. Never considered leaving.


I still have a lot of family in michigan; I left there in 72'.....there was a billboard on I-94 south that said "last one out shut out the lights"....

Here's a wood turned sculpture I made, a tribute to the people in charge of the commonwealth of Flint Michigan, more specifically the water authority . FWIW, this town is where the first Corvette rolled off the assembly line, over 200 thousand people lived and prospered, today you'd have a better shot at being murdered there than if you lived in south chicago!

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[roger wiegand]

I'll be the oddball here (what a surprise), but I love living in New England. Been, and lived in, lots of other places, but this is where I want to be. With New Zealand as the backup plan if it becomes necessary. Not cheap, but, for me, one of those "you get what you pay for" situations.

[Jim Becker]

no horse in there but I do have "keep your distance pandemic shuffle board court" and a wood lathe :)


472295

That polished concrete is da bomb!

[Myk Rian]

I love that sculpture. Great job.
Flint is 30 mi N of us. It isn't all that bad.
North of Bay City is where I would like to have a piece of land and cabin. We're south of that area in Livingston cty. Pretty much outside the fringes of the Detroit suburbs, but getting populated by people leaving the burbs.
They don't realize we have wildlife out here, and complain about the Sandhill cranes pecking holes in the lawn.

[John K Jordan]

I'll be the oddball here (what a surprise), but I love living in New England. Been, and lived in, lots of other places, but this is where I want to be. With New Zealand as the backup plan if it becomes necessary. Not cheap, but, for me, one of those "you get what you pay for" situations.

I’ve been to Mass, Rhode Island. and Conn but a few years ago in the fall we spent a few weeks driving up the coast, through NH & Vermont, then looped down and around. What beautiful country and great food (and friendly people). A ranger in northern VT did say 6’ of snow was not rare.

[Jack Frederick]

Sounds to me like time to take a serious Road Trip. Fun reading these type posts. One thing you want is water and the Great Lakes area is where it is. I like that Traverse City area myself and my SIL family have been there forever. Yes, winter may induce snow-bird mentality, but that isn’t so bad. You might look at Maine, NH, VT. Fabulous country and again Water. When you look at the New England area you have to re-order your State by State dimensions some. Western Distances are long between places. In the East youy can leave NYC and in less than eight hrs be in Bangor ME crossing 4 states. I apparently am as “odd a ball” as Roger. We left MA in ‘11 to be with the kids. I’d go back in a heartbeat, but with that snowbird mentality. Mattapoisett is the spot I’d go. The Shenandoah area of Virginia is terrific country all the way down to the NW GA area. I’ve lived around the country. People are people. Some will drive you nuts. Wherever you go you have to sort that out.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I live and work in the Black Hills of South Dakota, and have been a resident since the late 80's. My, how things change.
We're 15 miles from Sturgis, so summer rally is absolutely preposterous. A complete mob on the interstate for almost 2 weeks now, as rally goers who hate the crowds themselves come early or late to miss the peak of the insanity of it all (average 300k, can peak close to half million rally-goers). Quaintness of that event got burned out decades ago, especially when the 50th really seemed to solidify that event as a world-renowned annual destination for (mostly) Harley enthusiasts. The Black Hills are completely wrung-out after that event.

I am also about a 15 minute drive from Rapid City.
Rapid City area in general has always been expanding. Until now, it's never actually boomed. In the 90's it was 50k population. Now 80k and actually is booming, because of folks like yourself, no offense intended. Also, Ellsworth AFB is expanding, with estimates in the 30k range of new residents to serve with the latest bomber being assigned here.
Health care: Rapid City Regional is a major hub, and has recently re-branded to Monument Helath and touting association with Mayo, which makes them all the better according to them. Lots of VA medical facilities as well, due to proximity of the Air base. Many military folks simply stay when retirement rolls around, so pretty friendly environment for those who've served.

Real-estate: Now outpriced for local pay scales, due to excessive incoming cash buyers. Homes that were $150k 4 years ago are now asking for $225, with cash sales closing at 30-50k over that, due to unprecedented shortages. Actual average selling price used to be $225k 4 years ago. According to a realtor in my networking group, average is currently $453k. Many of us, like myself, are extremely grateful we found and settled into our current homes just before this situation developed. There is no major industry here, save a few specialized manufacturers, but at under 100 employees at best, it's still technically all small business. We still take $1.50 in Federal funds for every dollar we give in taxation, garnering a depressed economy classification. Yep, farming/ranching all over the place, but the subsidization of it all would make your head spin.

Actually saw a very nice, clean, late model pickup in Sturgis recently with the following message in 4" high lettering on the tailgate: "Thanks for visiting the Black Hills... Now GO HOME!"
Not an unusual sentiment, just really took me aback to see someone get this boisterous with their feelings, though it's commonly brought up in chats around coffee tables and bars. Truth is, it does feel we're getting a bit over-run.

Hard to put this into perspective, but believe me, we're running out of quaint, undiscovered little pieces of paradise, like that which you're seeking. Especially for a steal of a deal, but even that is a matter of perspective. A $500k dump in your area may still be half that out here. But it's still a dump.
As for infrastructure, thank goodness for Starlink, or I'd still be stuck with Centurystink for internet. However, living in a beautiful little canyon with a historic homestead down the street, I am faced with 2,500 gallons of propane to purchase each year for my home and shop, even though I'm only 1 mile off I-90, with Natural Gas supply line from Wyoming running parallel to it. So, realize, isolation has it's trade-offs. Your description is quite idyllic, but you just aren't going to get isolation and full infrastructure support.

Take all the above for what it's worth. I'd welcome you, if you can afford it, but bottom line is, SD got discovered by retirees and remote workers right after the pandemic kicked off, close to 2 years ago. The lines have formed, and the prices have been adjusted accordingly. As real estate goes, looks a lot like the toilet paper aisles at the local grocer. Not much there, and nobody cares what they pay, as long as they got something they can grab.

FWIW
Jeff

[Mark Bolton]

I feel your pain. I moved to the woods 20+ years ago (WV) for privacy, quiet, peace of mind, slower pace (failed miserably at the slower pace), hour to anything (pretty much an hour to nothing compared to "developed" areas).. lower taxes, blah blah blah. Its a hard balance especially if culture of any form (food, dining out, good grocery, shows, nightlife) there really isnt going to exist a 1 hour departure from food/culture bliss... to the woods. 1 hour from food culture bliss is called an hour of traffic to the suburbs.

[Jim Becker]

Umm...let's avoid politics beyond what's been said. Not permitted and it could get the thread torpedoed. Please.

[Mark Bolton]

Worse part is refugees from north move here, and then want to make it like where they came from. Why didn't they just stay where they were. Would the last person leaving NY /NJ turn out the lights.

This is very similar to what we deal with here. NY/NJ, pretty much anywhere, comes here and have this overwhelming feeling to "enlighten the locals" to locks and bagels, and fine food, and what ever, which is exactly what they were fleeing from but what they really dont understand is it black balls them with the locals.

I moved to this area to absorb their culture, not force mine onto them. I wanted to eat cornbread and brown beans, ramps, poke weed, on and on. If I want bagels I will make them for myself.

There was a couple from NY that had the double whammy, they thought they needed to save our local community from itself with their food and their religion. They bought the local country store (more money in their pockets than they knew what to do with), two gas pumps, basically the hub of our little local community but the past owners were getting older, tired, and a live fish on the hook they couldnt say no. Needless to say they poured thousands into the place, pissed off every local in the area.. if you parked in their parking lot and walked 40' over to the post office (anoher local hub) you were ripped six ways to Sunday. They destroyed themselves in a year. Changed the menu to stuff no one wanted. Pissed off everyone in the community with their condescending attitudes, and wound up selling the place for a total loss just to get out.

Sadly the little local hub of a store has never recovered. Does OK, but not profitable in any way.

All to common a scenario. You either move into a community and enjoy the warmth or you storm into a community telling them everything they should be doing and bad juju follows. We are moving into times when more and more people aim to kick the doors off the hinges rather than enjoy the good.

One of my long standing lines here is that I can pull over on the interstate to make a phone call and with in 5-10 minutes either my phone is ringing or someone has pulled up behind me to make sure Im not broke down. Phone calls say "Im doubling back, what do you need"... Born and raised in New England where your neighbor 10 doors down doesnt even wave at you much less help you change a flat.

[Roger Feeley]

Last summer, I drove through Ohio and made a quick stop in Charm to get some lumber at Keim. Keim lived up to all the positive reviews but the area was well worth the trip. The Amish farms were so tidy. I even liked slowing down so I wouldn’t hit a carriage.

I know I’m sort of in love with the idea of living in Amish country. The reality could be different.

[John K Jordan]

This is very similar to what we deal with here.
I moved to this area to ...

I may have missed something. Where is your "here", "this area"? Some find it useful to put their general location in their SMC user profile so it accompanies every message.

Almost everyone around here is helpful and friendly, will help anyone.

Except for one guy down at the other end of our dead-end lane. A day after he yelled at me for riding down "his" end of the road he saw me cleaning up a neighbor's place with my tractor and stopped to apologize. Said he was mad because he thought we were yankees who didn't belong in the area. I'd only been living on our farm that street for 15 years. He was friendlier when I told him we had lived within 10 miles of that spot for the last half century, had relatives all over the area, AND a well known highway close by was even named after my wife's cousin.

[Curt Harms]

My idea of mellow is snow on ground for Christmas, but it doesn't stick around for months.......Sounds like the Black Hills might just be more or less what I want to get away from. This is looking out my LR window.....

https://i.postimg.cc/RhSJpj1m/20220123-141640.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Fd6K7CnC)

I was a bit hesitant to ask on a public forum, as I do like my anonymity, but I'm glad I did. I thought SD might not scratch the itch. My 'friend' can be a bit of a salesman. I do like the rocky mountains, which is kinda what inspired me to look at Colorado. But as I mentioned, I'm not all that confident I can pull that move off anymore.

I have not ever been to Tennessee or Missouri. I was stationed in Virginia Beach and Newport RI, and lived in New Hampshire for a year. Travelled all over the east coast. Too crowded for me, but I did enjoy my time there.

I think I might just throw some darts on the board and go for a long drive. Any particular areas of Tennessee and Missouri I should target? I might get in trouble in Tennessee though, I love a good bourbon, and it's pretty close to Kentucky......

Tennessee and Kentucky ain't too shabby. Pretty mild winters and topography that suits me. There are some good sized lakes created by dams as well as natural lakes and rivers. As a retirement destination, consider proximity and quality of medical care and shopping.

[Bill Bukovec]

I agree with John K Jordan, eastern Tennessee is a great place to retire.

[Mark Bolton]

I may have missed something. Where is your "here", "this area"? post #34, WV. Agreed with your overall experience. Get a few cantankerous individuals and some that think they own the place but Ive always been able to get along with the devil himself. Country folk typically seem to know how hard life is so a bit of a team effort is always a welcomed thing.

[Thomas L Carpenter]

Don't come to central NC, unless you want to be in New Jersey / New York South. Our area is over run with those leaving these areas. In the county we live in, people are moving in at the rate of over 100 per day. 40+ years ago, we bought in one of the most rural areas of the county. Because of a nuclear plant, zoning was minimum of two acres. Closest town, of about 500 people was seven miles away. Now town has EXPLODED! 20,000+ people. Million dollar homes (on golf course) are just across the creek from us. Track of land (100 + acres) behind us is potentially for sale. Two new light industrial plants, that cover about 100 acres each are being built within two miles. Worse part is refugees from north move here, and then want to make it like where they came from. Why didn't they just stay where they were. Would the last person leaving NY /NJ turn out the lights.


I agree with this. I just moved from outside of Raleigh. Huge boom in new housing. Weeks before my move a beautiful farm just up the road from me was sold and now over 300 townhouses and houses are being built. All this on a quiet two lane country (usta be) road.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

If you are an avid woodworker, I'd advise locating in the mid-west, north or central due to the availability of hardwoods. I live in Idaho and the cost of hardwoods locally is incredible primarily due to the cost of transportation.

[Michael Drew]

Thanks for your frank honesty. I can certainly empathize with you, and do not wish to add to the problem you and others in your community are dealing with. I have many friends that travel to Sturgis every year, and have been doing so for decades. One of them was telling me that is not what is used to be, and has no intention of going again.

It sounds as if the winters in the Black Hills will be more than what I want to continue dealing with in my retirement years.


I live and work in the Black Hills of South Dakota, and have been a resident since the late 80's. My, how things change.
We're 15 miles from Sturgis, so summer rally is absolutely preposterous. A complete mob on the interstate for almost 2 weeks now, as rally goers who hate the crowds themselves come early or late to miss the peak of the insanity of it all (average 300k, can peak close to half million rally-goers). Quaintness of that event got burned out decades ago, especially when the 50th really seemed to solidify that event as a world-renowned annual destination for (mostly) Harley enthusiasts. The Black Hills are completely wrung-out after that event.

I am also about a 15 minute drive from Rapid City.
Rapid City area in general has always been expanding. Until now, it's never actually boomed. In the 90's it was 50k population. Now 80k and actually is booming, because of folks like yourself, no offense intended. Also, Ellsworth AFB is expanding, with estimates in the 30k range of new residents to serve with the latest bomber being assigned here.
Health care: Rapid City Regional is a major hub, and has recently re-branded to Monument Helath and touting association with Mayo, which makes them all the better according to them. Lots of VA medical facilities as well, due to proximity of the Air base. Many military folks simply stay when retirement rolls around, so pretty friendly environment for those who've served.

Real-estate: Now outpriced for local pay scales, due to excessive incoming cash buyers. Homes that were $150k 4 years ago are now asking for $225, with cash sales closing at 30-50k over that, due to unprecedented shortages. Actual average selling price used to be $225k 4 years ago. According to a realtor in my networking group, average is currently $453k. Many of us, like myself, are extremely grateful we found and settled into our current homes just before this situation developed. There is no major industry here, save a few specialized manufacturers, but at under 100 employees at best, it's still technically all small business. We still take $1.50 in Federal funds for every dollar we give in taxation, garnering a depressed economy classification. Yep, farming/ranching all over the place, but the subsidization of it all would make your head spin.

Actually saw a very nice, clean, late model pickup in Sturgis recently with the following message in 4" high lettering on the tailgate: "Thanks for visiting the Black Hills... Now GO HOME!"
Not an unusual sentiment, just really took me aback to see someone get this boisterous with their feelings, though it's commonly brought up in chats around coffee tables and bars. Truth is, it does feel we're getting a bit over-run.

Hard to put this into perspective, but believe me, we're running out of quaint, undiscovered little pieces of paradise, like that which you're seeking. Especially for a steal of a deal, but even that is a matter of perspective. A $500k dump in your area may still be half that out here. But it's still a dump.
As for infrastructure, thank goodness for Starlink, or I'd still be stuck with Centurystink for internet. However, living in a beautiful little canyon with a historic homestead down the street, I am faced with 2,500 gallons of propane to purchase each year for my home and shop, even though I'm only 1 mile off I-90, with Natural Gas supply line from Wyoming running parallel to it. So, realize, isolation has it's trade-offs. Your description is quite idyllic, but you just aren't going to get isolation and full infrastructure support.

Take all the above for what it's worth. I'd welcome you, if you can afford it, but bottom line is, SD got discovered by retirees and remote workers right after the pandemic kicked off, close to 2 years ago. The lines have formed, and the prices have been adjusted accordingly. As real estate goes, looks a lot like the toilet paper aisles at the local grocer. Not much there, and nobody cares what they pay, as long as they got something they can grab.

FWIW
Jeff

[Michael Drew]

If you are an avid woodworker, I'd advise locating in the mid-west, north or central due to the availability of hardwoods. I live in Idaho and the cost of hardwoods locally is incredible primarily due to the cost of transportation.

After paying what I've been paying for tools, machinery, lumber, wood, fuel, milk......etc, etc, etc, I doubt anything will shock me. Well, other than building a home in Colorado......

[Michael Drew]

I agree with John K Jordan, eastern Tennessee is a great place to retire.

I have been playing around with Google maps, putting a road trip together. I think I might just take John K up on the offer to take one if his critters for a walk. LOL..... I've always wanted to see Kentucky, but Tennessee and/or Missouri have not ever been on my list of places to visit. I have no idea why. My mother was born and raised in Missouri, but she and my grandparents moved to Arizona, so there was never a reason for us to visit my mother's birth state.

[Scott Clausen]

I am in upstate SC and enjoy easy access to mountains and the beach. As you get up in to the NC mountains it is usually about ten degrees cooler in the summer and it puts you about 4 hours from the beach. Tennessee is right there to with the same type of climate. Some good fishing in the mountains too. A good part of the country to poke around if you get this far.

[Michael Drew]

Thanks for the clarification. Two of my coworkers went to college in Moscow in the early 2000's. I've been talking to both of them about the area (they are married with kids, and met each other in school, one was born/raised in Alaska and the other was born/raised in Boise). It's funny talking to them separately. They have very different memories of their college years living in Moscow...... I think it would be worth another drive through, and possibly spend a couple days there to get a feel for the place, before I make commitments I can't back away from.

[Alan Lightstone]

Have you considered Utqiagvik? I hear the sun just rose there yesterday for the first time since November.

A little cold in winter, but lots of sunshine in the summer. I rather enjoyed my stay there a few years ago. Not sure if it would qualify as four seasons. Perhaps one. :D

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Flint is 30 mi N of us. It isn't all that bad.
:D......It isn't all that bad should be the City Logo and painted on the water towers.

[Roger Feeley]

Have you considered Utqiagvik? I hear the sun just rose there yesterday for the first time since November.

A little cold in winter, but lots of sunshine in the summer. I rather enjoyed my stay there a few years ago. Not sure if it would qualify as four seasons. Perhaps one. :D

For those of us that are geographically challenged, Alan is talking about Barrow Alaska. They decided to revert to the original name. Regarding the weather, I’m reminded of upstate NY where they have two seasons: winter and the Fourth of July.

[Michael Drew]

I've been working in the oil/gas industry, in the state for about 30 years. I have spent a fair amount of time on the slope. More than enough to scratch that itch. So no - I have not considered moving there.......

We get about 18 hours of daylight in the summer where I live, and that same amount of time without sun in the winter. Summers can be a blessing and a curse. I've burnt the candle at both ends working construction, building my homes, or just fishing on a river bank and not realizing what the time is.

[Adam Grund]

Last summer, I drove through Ohio and made a quick stop in Charm to get some lumber at Keim. Keim lived up to all the positive reviews but the area was well worth the trip. The Amish farms were so tidy. I even liked slowing down so I wouldn’t hit a carriage.

I know I’m sort of in love with the idea of living in Amish country. The reality could be different.
My wife says I was amish in a past life, and every time we go down through amish country she refers to them as ‘your people’ or ‘your family’. I joke about wanting to move to one of the communities all the time.
We live an hr-hr and a half north of there, and go down a couple times a year. It’s kind of disheartening to see how commercialized it’s gotten, although i can understand they have to make a living too.

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm not from here
but people tell me
it's not like it used to be.
They say I shoulda been here
back about ten years
before it got ruined by folks like me...

On to some bright future somewhere
down the road to points unknown
sending postcards when we get there
wherever it is we think we'll go

James McMurtry

Good luck. Maybe you'll know it when you see it.

[Michael Drew]

A girlfriend of mine has been going on and on about Franklin Tenn. She had a 'girls' trip to Tenn last fall. Nashville mostly, but she ventured out to Chattanooga and ended up in Franklin. Some of the pictures of that town, and surrounding area are definitely appealing to me. I think my trip might start in Memphis, drive east - through the state to Franklin, up through Kentucky, and back westerly through Missouri. Two weeks or thereabouts, I think. I'm thinking April....

[Jim Becker]

That really is a nice area of the country to consider, Michael. Seasons without the extremes (well...hopefully...) and pleasant surroundings.

[John M Wilson]

As a 33 year resident of Franklin, TN, I can attest that this is truly a wonderful spot to live.

However, the word got out a few years ago, and the selling prices of homes has become almost laughable. Even 50 year old plain jane houses with zero upgrades are selling within days of listing, for prices that probably have the orginal owners rapidly rotating in their current plane of existence.

"Call someplace Paradise, Kiss it Goodbye" :cool:

[Michael Drew]

As a 33 year resident of Franklin, TN, I can attest that this is truly a wonderful spot to live.

However, the word got out a few years ago, and the selling prices of homes has become almost laughable. Even 50 year old plain jane houses with zero upgrades are selling within days of listing, for prices that probably have the orginal owners rapidly rotating in their current plane of existence.

"Call someplace Paradise, Kiss it Goodbye" :cool:

I've been reading that Eastern Tenn in general has been inundated with folks moving there, and property is getting difficult to find.

[John K Jordan]

I've been reading that Eastern Tenn in general has been inundated with folks moving there, and property is getting difficult to find.

I think the market is not as bad as some areas I've read about, both in availability and price. There is still a LOT of undeveloped land on this end of the state and neighboring NC, VA, SC and I see new listings of properties with decent houses almost daily. You just have to be fast. I know that some realtors will send text messages and emails the instant something becomes available, maybe even before it's listed if they like you. If you come visit and decide you like the area we can introduce you to a good friend who happens to be a realtor. She sold our river property for more than the asking price even before it was listed.

But there are some areas that for some reason attract wealthy people from all over. One guy told me he found out about the area from a couple of friends who moved from Florida and after one visit decided to move here.

JKJ

[Curt Harms]

I've been reading that Eastern Tenn in general has been inundated with folks moving there, and property is getting difficult to find.

Blame John Jordan:D. J/K John:p I spent a couple weeks in Chattanooga a couple years ago, didn't seem like a bad place to call home at all.

[John K Jordan]

Blame John Jordan:D. J/K John:p I spent a couple weeks in Chattanooga a couple years ago, didn't seem like a bad place to call home at all.

I know two people who were looking for a place to move to to get out of hot dry or freezing cold climates. I told them my opinion. They moved here and haven't left, 10 years or so later. I think in once case moving to the heart of hardwood heaven might have been a factor. :)

[Scott Clausen]

I'm not from here
but people tell me
it's not like it used to be.
They say I shoulda been here
back about ten years
before it got ruined by folks like me...

On to some bright future somewhere
down the road to points unknown
sending postcards when we get there
wherever it is we think we'll go

James McMurtry

Good luck. Maybe you'll know it when you see it.
Nice, I have tickets to see him in March. Always enjoyed him.

[David Super]

Hello Michael,

If you grew up in Montana, why forsake where you were raised? As someone raised in the Black Hills and now returned from the mid-Atlantic region for retirement life, I'd venture that the two states share many similarities. Montana's way more impressive by many measures. I'd also suggest more of the Treasure State has been discovered by big city folks with money - tons of it. But you have asked about South Dakota.

Weather: Be prepared for "authentic" experiences across all seasons. Don't, like we did, forget about the wind. The truck-tipping zephyrs far out number days of calm or gentle breezes.

Taxes: No income tax (whoopee, if that's your thing), but property taxes will grab your attention and wallet, harder than you might imagine. Sales tax is calculated for almost everything, 4.5 percent for the state and often another 2 percent for local needs, and higher yet for purchases related to tourism.

Hunting/fishing: Better than some places in the High Plains region, but locals grumble that deer hunting isn't what is once was. Rural landowners are quickly catching on to offering experience-flavored hunts with posted land (the good stuff), guides, resort-style cabins, etc. Fishing opportunities are more abundant, likewise boating and even sailing (remember, it's windy) on the big reservoirs.

Tourism: We're not quite there, but signs of "loving South Dakota to death" are starting to show. There's the bike rally in Sturgis, known as the world's biggest, noisy party/flea market/rock concert. If you're into burning hydrocarbons on two wheels (or three), then party on. Otherwise, join the locals who endure the crowds and possibly figure out some way to make a little (or a lot) of money by serving the visitors.

Real estate: Others have already commented about this question. The Black Hills region and major population centers across the state, especially Sioux Falls, have been discovered. The bargains are gone. That said, if you can afford it, real estate agents have big portfolios of property with anything you could want. Just be prepared to pay. Shop carefully lest you buy your dream acreage in a beautiful place where zoning regulations (or lack thereof) might put you next door to current or future neighbors who think, act and behave in ways you find offensive. More affordable properties are out there, but be ready to move to a small town or rural place far out on the prairie.


Bonus: Sawmill Creek is about woodworking. Since moving back home several years ago, I've filled our garage to bursting with affordable woodworking tools of all types that I've purchased at auctions. Good deals in this arena remain as the population of local woodworkers dwindles. If you are a skilled woodworker and want to remain in the workforce in South Dakota, bring your tools and your best game. As with many other parts of the country, craftspeople of all disciplines are in short supply. Whether you're a nailgun shooter who can frame houses or a skilled remodeler who isn't afraid of tackling complex projects for homeowners, there's plenty of opportunity. Don't forget to pack your long underwear and a warm hat.

[Michael Drew]

Thanks for the informative post David. Very helpful.

A couple thoughts..... I love Montana. My father owned a road construction and logging company. We lived throughout the NW area (Whitefish/Kalispell/Seeley Lake). I have three sisters still living in Billings. I won't say never, but it's unlikely that I return to the state to live full time. I just don't want to deal with the winters anymore.

[Michael Drew]

Anyone have any personal experience on Maine's northern coastline? I have only drove this route once, many, many years ago. I remember it been a very pretty drive with a few small coastal fishing towns. We did not linger though..... I was surfing a couple of the online realtor websites and there are a few nice sized lots on the coast at what seems very reasonable price points. I was looking near the boarder town of Lepoc and south towards Belfast. I imagine the winters can get pretty harsh with winds off the Atlantic. Taxes are not all that appealing for the state either.

[Jack Frederick]

I did a lot of business in Maine. I lived in MA, but 25 yrs of a lot of business to attend to in dealing with Mainer’s gave me a great appreciation of the country and its people. Yes, you can get hammered weather wise when a Nor’easter (low pressure) spins all that moisture off the Atlantic, but it is not that common. One or two per year…well unless the are three or four. Now you live in Alaska so it’s kinda silly to talk about isolation, but you are pretty remote up there Lubec way. Belfast area is terrific, but I imagine costs increase substantially as you move south from Lubec. Some crazy tides up Lubec way. Check out “Tides in the Bay of Fundy.” Very close to Atlantic Canada is a bonus. As I said before, sounds like you need a long term road trip to help you out in this decision.

[Jim Becker]

I can tell you that that part of Maine is truly beautiful. The downsides are "fart from everything" which could be an up-side from some folks. The weather can be pretty challenging sometimes because you have both "north" and "coastal".

[Michael Drew]

I did a lot of business in Maine. I lived in MA, but 25 yrs of a lot of business to attend to in dealing with Mainer’s gave me a great appreciation of the country and its people. Yes, you can get hammered weather wise when a Nor’easter (low pressure) spins all that moisture off the Atlantic, but it is not that common. One or two per year…well unless the are three or four. Now you live in Alaska so it’s kinda silly to talk about isolation, but you are pretty remote up there Lubec way. Belfast area is terrific, but I imagine costs increase substantially as you move south from Lubec. Some crazy tides up Lubec way. Check out “Tides in the Bay of Fundy.” Very close to Atlantic Canada is a bonus. As I said before, sounds like you need a long term road trip to help you out in this decision.

Thanks Jack.

To the point in bold, yes - I agree. Slight problem though. I have a job and need to be strategic with my vacation days. I will plan two or three trips this calendar year, scouting different areas of the country that has enough boxes checked for me to visit. Hence all the dumb questions.

[Mark Blatter]

Thanks for the informative post David. Very helpful.

A couple thoughts..... I love Montana. My father owned a road construction and logging company. We lived throughout the NW area (Whitefish/Kalispell/Seeley Lake). I have three sisters still living in Billings. I won't say never, but it's unlikely that I return to the state to live full time. I just don't want to deal with the winters anymore.

Michael, the only thing keeping me from moving back to Montana is the winter.....OK and that four of my five kids live close in Utah. The winters can be, well difficult as you know. Yet the same applies, perhaps even worse, in SoDak. And while the wind blows in central MT, it blows worse in both N & S Dakota.

Good luck finding a place.

[Michael Drew]

To update this and give a shout out to those who helped me with tips and comments, I did end up travelling in Maine this summer. We spent about 10 days on the coast the later part of May, first week of June. Started in Portland, and went north to Lubec. Stayed in Portland, Camden, Bar Harbor and Lubec on the way up the coast, and then in Belfast on the way back down. Stayed a night in Portsmouth NH on the return and visited friends who live there.

Loved the state. Found a few properties overlooking tidal waters I could most definitely see myself building a house on. Portland was nice, kinda quirky, but it's not for me..... No point in saying why without getting political, so I'll just leave it at that. Too crowded as well. Really liked the town of Camden. Very quaint, clean, friendly. Bar Harbor is a nice town as well, but too touristy. Lots of old money in Bar Harbor too. Lubec and Eastport were both very pretty, and not as remote as I thought they would be. We drove around Bangor for a few hours, and did not see anything there to convince us to stay and hang out.

Taxes in Maine are high though. Not sure if want to saddle myself with a home in a state that has as many taxes as Maine. I need to chew on this for a while.....

My next trip in Tennessee and the surrounding states. I feel like I need to put an X in a few boxes before making any big moves. I did list my Colorado property though. Took about 20 days to get an earnest money check.

[Jim Koepke]

Taxes in Maine are high though. Not sure if want to saddle myself with a home in a state that has as many taxes as Maine.

There are only seven states that do not have a personal income tax: Wyoming, Washington, Texas, South Dakota, Nevada, Florida and Alaska.

There are five states without sales taxes: Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon. Some of these states may have taxes on some sales. If my memory is working Oregon has a Luxury tax on some items.

Hawaii has the lowest property taxes. Many states in the south have low property taxes. I'd rather live in earthquake country than hurricane and tornado country.

Wyoming may be the most "tax friendly" state for middle class folks.

When the wife and I settled down we were more concerned with our local medical care than our taxes. I didn't realize Washington doesn't have a personal income tax until after moving here and filing taxes our first year. People often say they are being "taxed to death." Though most of them keep getting up and going to work or doing whatever else it is they do.

jtk

[Kyle Stiefel]

There are only seven states that do not have a personal income tax: Wyoming, Washington, Texas, South Dakota, Nevada, Florida and Alaska.

There are five states without sales taxes: Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon. Some of these states may have taxes on some sales. If my memory is working Oregon has a Luxury tax on some items.

Hawaii has the lowest property taxes. Many states in the south have low property taxes. I'd rather live in earthquake country than hurricane and tornado country.

jtk


New Hampshire doesn't have personal income tax either.

Ironically I grew up in Vancouver, WA and was about 5 minutes from I-5 and 10 minutes from I-205 once it was built so it was a quick jump across the river to Portland for no sales tax!

[Jim Koepke]

New Hampshire doesn't have personal income tax either.

Ironically I grew up in Vancouver, WA and was about 5 minutes from I-5 and 10 minutes from I-205 once it was built so it was a quick jump across the river to Portland for no sales tax!

My information came from a Google search.

Also from a Googles search New Hampshire may not have a tax on earned income. They do tax some income:


New Hampshire has a flat 5.00 percent individual income tax rate which is levied only on interest and dividends income.

That may be why they were not on the no personal income tax list.

jtk

[Ronald Blue]

When you use only one factor to figure out where the lowest cost of living is found you get skewed results. Real estate or income taxes or personal property taxes alone don't give you the big picture. Here is a link that ranks states on an average for several categories. Notice Hawaii is dead last for affordable living. So much for low real estate taxes. I'm not putting this here as an argument, just that you need a broad based analysis of things and not a single point measurement.

https://usabynumbers.com/states-ranked-by-cost-of-living/

Here is another index link that has about the same results.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/cost-of-living-index-by-state

[Jim Becker]

For the OP, Hawaii has a similar issue to Alaska where he lives now...almost everything has to be shipped in. Different climate, but similar challenge from a cost of living standpoint. But I suspect that the islands are not on his short list anyway. :)

[Michael Drew]

I actually was looking for land on the big island a few years back. Just couldn't find one in my budget that fit the criteria wouldn't compromise on.....

One thing I did notice in Maine, and I suspect it's in all the east coast states, is the number of roads and villages. They are everywhere. Maine is considered rural, with a low population density, but it sure didn't feel that way to me. Probably due to spending the build of my life in the North West.

I'm not only focusing on taxes. I realize that taxes are only a data point that needs to go into the formula. But, if I'm paying 20 mills on property taxes, another 6% sales tax on everything, and a 5% state income tax, the three combined cannot be ignored, even if the cost of living in lower.

[Jim Becker]

On the roads, it's true that even in rural and more undeveloped areas there are what appears to be more roads and towns compared to the great northwest. I think a lot of that is a "scale" thing...our "out in the sticks" is a much smaller area and there are also less natural geography features the intrude like say, the Rocky Mountains and other things do out west. There are definitely areas that are pretty "remote" here in the northeast, but it's a very different "remote" compared to some of those other places!

And yes, true cost of living takes on many different factors, so that's all relative to comparisons. In the end, you'll likely pick the place that you actually "liked" the best, however, even if it's not the lowest cost of living...subjective things can overrule objective things for sure.

[Ronald Blue]

I actually was looking for land on the big island a few years back. Just couldn't find one in my budget that fit the criteria wouldn't compromise on.....

One thing I did notice in Maine, and I suspect it's in all the east coast states, is the number of roads and villages. They are everywhere. Maine is considered rural, with a low population density, but it sure didn't feel that way to me. Probably due to spending the build of my life in the North West.

I'm not only focusing on taxes. I realize that taxes are only a data point that needs to go into the formula. But, if I'm paying 20 mills on property taxes, another 6% sales tax on everything, and a 5% state income tax, the three combined cannot be ignored, even if the cost of living in lower.

But the cost of housing factors in related expenses. I don't know if they specifically list sales tax and income tax but I have to believe that is part of the equation as well. The CPI does count sales tax but not income tax. Most state income tax uses the federal net income that is filed on your federal taxes. I'm far from an expert on income tax but that's how it works here at least. While there are expensive states and inexpensive states remember that if they don't have income tax or sales tax they are getting revenue from other areas. They all need some form of revenue source to operate.

[John K Jordan]

[QUOTE=Jim Koepke;3207662]There are only seven states that do not have a personal income tax: Wyoming, Washington, Texas, South Dakota, Nevada, Florida and Alaska.
[QUOTE]

Tennessee has no state personal income tax and no wheel tax. Widely listed as one of the states with a low cost of living.

Even fuel at the pump is lower than the prices I see listed for many states and the national average. On a recent trip moving a friend out of state I was horrified by the cost of diesel compared to back home. I was told the cheaper fuel here was due in part to Knoxville being a central hub with huge fuel depots, minimizing the local delivery costs. Don’t know of this is the reason but for some reason the fuel has always been cheaper since we moved here in the 70s.

I know several people who moved to TN due to the cost of living, the lower land and housing costs (I paid far less for this farm with house and barn than the average house cost), proximity to major interstates (I-75 and I-40 cross here), the terrain and the Smokey Mtns, abundance of lakes and rivers/fishing/watersports, shopping/culture/educarion, the Oak Ridge National Lab, and the location central to the eastern US (easy access to two coasts, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Asheville, Lexington, DC, Raleigh, Charleston, Orlando, etc.)

And, of course, the abundance of cheap and free hardwoods! Small sawmills everywhere (even I have one) I had 4 people come recently to haul off turning wood from a big dying ash tree we cut). Once a woman drove from the parched west and filled to station wagon with thick slabs and turning wood.

JKJ

[Jim Koepke]

Tennessee has no state personal income tax and no wheel tax. Widely listed as one of the states with a low cost of living.

That will teach me to trust Google results. Tennessee does have an income tax on corporations. You can bet your bottom dollar that gets passed through to consumers. Though last time I was in Tennessee things seemed okay. That was about 50 years ago.

I had to look up "wheel tax." It looks like some counties may charge them.

Cost of living is important. To SWMBO quality of living was also important. She wants to be close to the ocean. Medical facilities was also an important factor for her. I wanted a shop, garden and some acreage.


They all need some form of revenue source to operate.

Roads, schools and other functions of government have to be paid for somehow. I have been in some states where it seemed some of the normal functions (at least what I was used to) of government were not important.

jtk

[Michael Drew]

I've been using this site for comparing state taxes. http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/income-tax-by-state

[Roger Feeley]

I gave this a lot of thought some years ago and then our only daughter married and got pregnant. Now we live in northern Virginia which would not have even been considered. Too hot and humid. Summer here is my winter.

there are two things that should not be overlooked
1. Stable water supply. Anyplace that depends on snow melt for water is out. Climate change. If water is from an aquifer, see how deep they have to go. Is there any pollution endangering the water supply. Fracking?
2. Stable local economy and health care. A while back, a friend virtually saved the town of Garnet, Kansas. The local hospital was losing its Medicare certification. The elderly would have had to move away and the town would have folded. She got the hospital back on track. Funny story, she has a lead foot and got pulled over for doing 70 in a 40. The cop saw her name on the license, thanked her for saving the hospital and told her to have a nice day.