how would you make this chamfered edge?

[roger wiegand]

As part of rebuilding an organ action I need to make a board with an array of 72 wells in it. The wells are about 3/8" deep and 1-1/8" " in diameter. Clearly drilling the holes is easy, but how would you reproduce the chamfered edge (there are several reasons why it is important to the eventual function of the piece-- a piece of very thin, dished piece of leather will be glued over top of it and air pressure from underneath will actuate a valve. I can get into the details if anyone cares. So I'm not interested in redesigning it, just trying to figure out how it can be made. Dozens of organ manufacturers have made the same thing over the last two centuries, so it must be pretty straightforward, but there is no tool to do it in the organ supply catalogs. They need to be reasonably uniform from well to well.

The holes are too shallow to accommodate a router bearing, all of the countersink type cutters I can find go to a vee and would bottom out long before shaping the edge. I can imagine what the right cutter would look like, but is there any easy way to do this without having someone make me a custom tool? I don't have a mill or CNC machine, hoping for a drill press based solution.

Here is a side and top view of the shape of the well.


472166

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Would a 45 degree bevel router bit with a bearing guide work? Intriguing project, I am interested!

[roger wiegand]

No, the well is not deep enough to accommodate the depth of the bearing. I'm looking at a brass piloted bit from Infinity that might work, no bearing, just a rub surface that can be filed down to length. Seems like it would be easy to mess up the edge though with any slight tilt of the router. I'd be less concerned if I didn't have to get it right 72 times in a row!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

How about a fly cutter in the drill press with the cutter bevel facing out? Or a custom fly cutter for the hole and chamfer at the same time? I am guessing each one will be a different diameter?

[Matt Day]

I agree a cutter on the DP would make quick work of it.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

How about a fly cutter in the drill press with the cutter bevel facing out? Or a custom fly cutter for the hole and chamfer at the same time? I am guessing each one will be a different diameter? ... I have a D.I.Y compass router base for round work.

[John TenEyck]

If you make a template for a router with a collet you could first cut the hole with one router using a straight or spiral bit, and then cut the chamfer with another router set up with a chamfer bit.

Of drill the hole on the drill press, then cut the chamfer as described above, using a locator plug to guarantee the template is centered on the hole.

John

[Greg Funk]

I think I would drill a small hole in the center (before cutting the main hole) and make a circle cutting base (if you don't already have one) for a small router. Register the base using a small nail/pin in the center hole and cut a v-groove followed by the main larger diameter hole. If you keep the indexing hold small enough it should be feasible to center the main hole although it might not be perfectly aligned with the v-groove.

[Jamie Buxton]

No, the well is not deep enough to accommodate the depth of the bearing. I'm looking at a brass piloted bit from Infinity that might work, no bearing, just a rub surface that can be filed down to length. Seems like it would be easy to mess up the edge though with any slight tilt of the router. I'd be less concerned if I didn't have to get it right 72 times in a row!

You can fix the tilting problem with a flat base on the router which reaches all the way across the hole to rest on the other side. The OEM bases on most routers will do that on your 1 1/8" hole.

[Andrew Seemann]

You might be able to regrind a 1 3/8" (or whatever size it works out to be) spade bit a to match the chamfer profile. Then you can cut it in the drill press with a jig that holds it centered, and the depth stop set on the quill.

[Brian Tymchak]

You might be able to regrind a 1 3/8" (or whatever size it works out to be) spade bit a to match the chamfer profile. Then you can cut it in the drill press with a jig that holds it centered, and the depth stop set on the quill.

Along these lines, and with 72 to do, I might look into a custom profile blade for a rosette cutter. Not sure how long it takes to get a custom profile ground these days. Seems like everything else service-wise is really slow.

[andrew whicker]

If you did use the flycutter method, you would only have to center the first one.. make a fence with stops and then bang them out.



My brain is pretty tired and I'm only saying this as a thought experiment more than an actual method (because it sounds neat), but if you had a ring with correct inside diameter then you could rotate the square piece inside that circle (no slop). Then you could offset that ring on your router table such that you cut the chamfer with a vee bit. The over the top complicated method! Lol, engineers everywhere would be proud. The more I think about it, the more dangerous this sounds. Double whammy: complicated and dangerous. : )


I like the fly cutter idea.

[John K Jordan]

Roger,

That would be an interesting mechanism. I rebuilt a player piano which had 66 thin leather disks that used low pressure vacuum to operate higher pressure valves which powered the striking bellows which moved the hammers. Perhaps this is similar. In the player piano the entire mechanism, energy storage, note sensors, paper roll alignment, speed regulator, motor, and hammer actuators was vacuum driven, fascinating for something designed and patented 125 years ago.

Just a few possibly wild ideas off the top of my head:


I might consider making a special fly cutter and cut the bevel with the milling machine. But that requires the milling machine and probably the metal lathe. My mill would be sturdier than my drill presses.

Or I might make a custom cutter with a disk that fit into the hole to align the cutter exactly. I'd have to think of the best way to do it. Is the bevel a 45-deg angle? Probably make the disk out of aluminum or steel, mill an angled cutout in one place, and drill&tap to mount a square or triangular carbide insert cutter. Seems like that would work. But again, a lot of metal working.

You mentioned a countersink. If you had a large countersink or reamer with the right diameter could the point be ground off?

If you had a CNC machine or a friend with one, it could be programmed to cut the holes and the bevels. A friend has an 8' CNC that could probably do all the 72 holes and bevels in one go. He's shown me some incredible

Call up an organ manufacturer and ask how they do it?
Is there an organization/forum of enthusiasts who may have devised ways to do this?

But... does it have to be one solid board? Could it be two boards with the hole drilled completely through the top board which may allow clearance for a router bearing, then glue a solid board on underneath? If the hole needed to be deeper to accommodate the router bearing perhaps the top board could be thicker than needed then resawn or planed to the right thickness before the bottom board was glued on.



JKJ


As part of rebuilding an organ action I need to make a board with an array of 72 wells in it. The wells are about 3/8" deep and 1-1/8" " in diameter. Clearly drilling the holes is easy, but how would you reproduce the chamfered edge (there are several reasons why it is important to the eventual function of the piece-- a piece of very thin, dished piece of leather will be glued over top of it and air pressure from underneath will actuate a valve. I can get into the details if anyone cares. So I'm not interested in redesigning it, just trying to figure out how it can be made. Dozens of organ manufacturers have made the same thing over the last two centuries, so it must be pretty straightforward, but there is no tool to do it in the organ supply catalogs. They need to be reasonably uniform from well to well.

The holes are too shallow to accommodate a router bearing, all of the countersink type cutters I can find go to a vee and would bottom out long before shaping the edge. I can imagine what the right cutter would look like, but is there any easy way to do this without having someone make me a custom tool? I don't have a mill or CNC machine, hoping for a drill press based solution.

Here is a side and top view of the shape of the well.

472166

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Organs are really amazing. My father In Laws life calling is to help save big old inner-city churches. One that I worked on a lot in the 1980s has a big beautiful Pipe Organ. I used to meet the blind, 80+ year old, piano tuner Gentleman and take him to the piano. When he was done tuning the piano he would ask to play the Organ. I would take him to the organ as well. It always had things wrong with it and he would try to direct me in fixing it. Thank goodness I knew better than to try. We did eventually get an organ specialist and I got to help him a little. What truly amazing woodworking and mechanical engineering. That church is thriving again and the organ is still used.

I will try spinning a block around a center pivot index pin on the router table with a v-grove bit.

[Bill Dufour]

I would drill it into one thick piece of wood to allow a deep registration hole. After it is drilled and and chamfered resaw off the portion you want. The other way would be to attach the thin work piece to a chunk of 2x6 with double sided tape, some screws etc.
Aircraft countersinks max out at about 7/8" Diameter so no good.

[Bill Dufour]

For that big a hole I think you will have to look at insertable countersinks. Her eis a link to a one on ebay. The problem will be finding one with a small enough shank your drill press can grab it.
The linked one looks like it uses standard inserts. It also looks like it can chamfer two different diameter holes. You may have to drill your holes to match the pilot then enlarge them after the chamfer operation.
Bill D.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/263312991779?hash=item3d4ead6623%3Ag%3AvngAAOSwTO9 aBa93&LH_ItemCondition=4

Idea on a tool you could make from wood with a plane blade.
https://www.ferguson.com/product/reed-clean-ream-extreme-2-in-aluminum-pipe-fitting-reamer-r04525/_/R-4190752

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Neat ideas, and neat tools! It is a small hole for the compass router idea. Like John, I am not sure I am getting the big picture. Will the holes be made in individual blocks? How about using a lathe? How about modifying a hole saw?

[Walter Plummer]

Here is a company that sells blanks if you want to try grinding your own profile. https://www.southeasttool.com/products/carbon-steel-router-blanks/

[roger wiegand]

That is exactly the tool I was envisioning! Finding one with the right dimensions is the challenge. (I didn't mention that this organ is European, so everything is metric, to add to the complications). Oftentimes these pneumatic systems are ina fairly delicate balance, so you can't go changing dimensions and expect it to work as designed.


For that big a hole I think you will have to look at insertable countersinks. Her eis a link to a one on ebay. The problem will be finding one with a small enough shank your drill press can grab it.
Bill D.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/263312991779?hash=item3d4ead6623%3Ag%3AvngAAOSwTO9 aBa93&LH_ItemCondition=4

[roger wiegand]

A bunch of great ideas to explore here, thank you! For further explanation here's a picture of a pouch board like this that I was in the process of re-leathering. You can see a couple of un-leathered wells at the left side, the rest have been covered with 0.01" thick leather, with a cardboard button glued in the center to push on the bottom of the valve stem. So in answer to several questions these are not individual squares but all in one long board. Exactly as in a player piano, as John noted.

472198

One issue with a square edged hole is that if you get a bit of squeeze out of glue when you put the leather down it can make a sharp edge that will, over time, cut the leather, causing a leak and failed note. That doesn't happen with the chamfer. At the same time it increases the area, and thus the power of the pouch to lift the valve without increasing the total volume of the well by much.

Re-grinding a spade bit, or starting with one of those grindable router bits seems like a very practical, low tech and quick way to attack this. I'll probably attempt the spade bit route this morning and see how it goes. If I got really clever I suppose I could make both the hole and chamfer with an appropriately shaped spade bit; that may not be worth the extra effort and I'm not sure I'd like the quality of the resulting hole.

I suggested that that a CNC machine would be a great addition to the shop to solve this problem, but DW was having none of it!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

https://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/faith-and-values/a-church-closes-but-where-does-its-pipe-organ-go/article_9c3b72c7-9107-56e1-90b0-2b207184a0f5.html

A bit off topic, There is an image of some wonderful workmanship.

[Leigh Betsch]

I’d ask on the Neanderthal form. I suspect it was originally cut by hand.

[Scott T Smith]

I would consider modifying a Forstner bit to provide the correct profile and drill and chamfer in a single pass. You would have to start with a larger bit in order to have adequate steel to modify.

A local machine shop or company that sharpens end mills should be able to do the regrind for you.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I took the angle grinder to this old spade bit. no measuring, no sharpening, or refinements of any kind. I think this could work if done with care.

472202

[Derek Cohen]

Would a 45 degree bevel router bit with a bearing guide work? Intriguing project, I am interested!

The chamfer will not be seen as covered by leather.

Use a sharp knife to pare the edges.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Sack]

What about building a jig that firmly holds the work piece. Set up two routers. One with a chamfer bit with a top bearing and the other with a flat bottom "bowl bit" (I think that's what you call it) also with a top bearing to mortise out the hole. You would need a slightly larger bearing on the bowl bit so as to not remove the entire chamfer. Perhaps a disc sander on a shaft close to the diameter of the hole could be used to clean up the bottom of the mortised hole if necessary.

[John Stankus]

Since I’m guessing this is a valve for a pneumatic organ, would an automotive valve seat cutter get what you need?
There seems to be ones available in the diameter you want and different chamfer angles. I am assuming the leather needs to seal against this edge.

John

[Dan Cameron]

What about building a jig that firmly holds the work piece. Set up two routers. One with a chamfer bit with a top bearing and the other with a flat bottom "bowl bit" (I think that's what you call it) also with a top bearing to mortise out the hole. You would need a slightly larger bearing on the bowl bit so as to not remove the entire chamfer. Perhaps a disc sander on a shaft close to the diameter of the hole could be used to clean up the bottom of the mortised hole if necessary.

Say you have two routers equipped with 7/8 id guide bushings and you purchase a router bit like the one shown. It has a 25/32 od. The bearing can be removed and it'.s mounting collar ground off (plus a little more if need be). Make a plywood template with an appropriate size hole to rout out your shallow hole using a 1/2 inch straight router bit and a guide bushing in one router. The chopped off chamfer bit in another router with the same diameter guide bushing can cut the desired chamfer by adjusting the bit up or down. Voila.
https://www.toolstoday.com/media/catalog/product/cache/96baf7813fa1c382948abdf94a65c780/m/s/msl2454.jpg

[Brad Chenoweth]

I'd try one if these. With a bit of practice, you'll be able to get consistent results.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-NA-in-Removal-tool/1002599656?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-plb-_-ggl-_-PLA_PLB_208_Plumbing-Repair-_-1002599656-_-online-_-0-_-0&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAiAlrSPBhBaEiwAuLSDUJYOW4Te_6MRNie6tW6t 77zevxL2TuPKkox32MDk68CTYaJXa2aDMxoC2-gQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[roger wiegand]

So the job is done, the modified spade bit worked like a champ. It worked much better to drill first with the spade bit, creating the chamfer, then follow with a forstner bit for the well using the center point as a guide. The other way around the spade bit chattered a lot. It was also important to saw off most of the spade bit shaft to reduce vibration. Quite happy with the outcome, and really appreciative of the suggestions here. On to the next problem!

Cutting the chamfers:
472244

wells being completed

472245

Finished decks, one that will have the pouches, the second will hold the valves that are actuated by the pouches.

472246

[Dan Cameron]

Say you have two routers equipped with 7/8 id guide bushings and you purchase a router bit like the one shown. It has a 25/32 od. The bearing can be removed and it'.s mounting collar ground off (plus a little more if need be). Make a plywood template with an appropriate size hole to rout out your shallow hole using a 1/2 inch straight router bit and a guide bushing in one router. The chopped off chamfer bit in another router with the same diameter guide bushing can cut the desired chamfer by adjusting the bit up or down. Voila.
https://www.toolstoday.com/media/catalog/product/cache/96baf7813fa1c382948abdf94a65c780/m/s/msl2454.jpg

Here is a really cheap router bit that could do the job. You would need to grind down the 7/8 od just enough to fit inside the 1" od, 7/8"id guide bushing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353835310734?hash=item52623a5e8e:g:KPQAAOSwKSRhzmR L

[Edwin Santos]

This was an interesting problem to ponder. Now that you've solved it, perhaps there's no need for further discussion.
But just in case, one solution I thought up is using an inexpensive fly wheel style circle cutter at the drill press. These things have a chisel shaped cutter and you could set it up so the chamfer is on the outside and proceed to drill your hole partway to the depth of chamfer you like. Then swap out for another conventional bit, using the same pilot hole.

472264

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Roger Wiegand, I am enjoying the images of your progress! Best regards, Maurice

[roger wiegand]

Just for context, this is the organ I'm currently working on. It is a Belgian cafe dance organ. Not sure yet when it was made, could have been as early as the 1930's or as late as 1950. This company made no two the same, and had no serial numbers or dates that I've been able to find. Frequently builders will have glued newspaper to the insides of the windways to make them more airtight, but no such luck on this one.

Here's what it looks like fully assembled:

472315

And here's what the organ looks like behind the facade with the percussion removed:
472316

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Could you drill the 1 1/8" hole with a Forstner bit and then use this https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/vgroove_face_frame_bit.html to put the chamfer on the edge using a guide on the router base plate and a pattern taped to the object wood?

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Neat-O! I like the Art Nouveau elements.

[Dan Cameron]

Could you drill the 1 1/8" hole with a Forstner bit and then use this https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/vgroove_face_frame_bit.html to put the chamfer on the edge using a guide on the router base plate and a pattern taped to the object wood?

Ken, the outside diameter of that bit is 1 3/8", way too big to fit thru any standard router bushing.

[Andrew Seemann]

Glad you got it to work. I always wanted to build an organ in my younger days, but I settled on a couple of harpsichords instead; much easier to manage. Maybe I'll make a small Positiv in my (eventual) retirement someday:)

I have a book from the 1800s that outlines how to build a small organ using paper for the pipes ("Organ Making for Amateurs"), and another book from the same time period called "How to Build Chamber Organ". Rather ambitious title. I often wonder how many instruments were actually built from either book over the years.

[Keith Outten]

You might try looking at Amana router bits. Amana sells some very tiny bits that have very small bearings, I have one that I use to round over interior edges of door signs. The bearing is tiny and doesn't require much of a lip at all.

Start Here (https://www.amanatool.com/mr0108-carbide-tipped-miniature-chamfer-45-degree-x-9-16-dia-x-1-4-x-1-4-inch-shank-with-mini-3-16-dia-lower-ball-bearing.html)

[andrew whicker]

nice job! Drill press def best solution.

[Ronald Blue]

Glad the simple solution worked so great! Very interesting project. Did someone bring this to you or is this a project you acquired for your personal enjoyment?

[roger wiegand]

I collect mechanical music machines. I bought the organ at auction a couple months ago. Astonishingly, it has permission to live in the living room once I'm done working on it.

[Mike Hollis]

This is a simple task if you know someone with a CNC machine. Or maybe use it as an excuse to buy one for yourself.

[Edwin Santos]

You might try looking at Amana router bits. Amana sells some very tiny bits that have very small bearings, I have one that I use to round over interior edges of door signs. The bearing is tiny and doesn't require much of a lip at all.

Start Here (https://www.amanatool.com/mr0108-carbide-tipped-miniature-chamfer-45-degree-x-9-16-dia-x-1-4-x-1-4-inch-shank-with-mini-3-16-dia-lower-ball-bearing.html)

Wasn't aware of these miniature bits. Thanks for the lead on them.

[roger wiegand]

This is a simple task if you know someone with a CNC machine. Or maybe use it as an excuse to buy one for yourself.

Buying one was absolutely my first thought!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Roger. Will you modernize anything or do you try to keep everything as original as posable?. The billows and all of the mechanicals look like they would be as much fun to watch as the dancers.

[roger wiegand]

Roger. Will you modernize anything or do you try to keep everything as original as posable?. The billows and all of the mechanicals look like they would be as much fun to watch as the dancers.

I keep everything as original as I can. Only traditional materials, mostly leather and hot hide glue in this instrument. Obtaining good rubber-covered cloth has become very difficult, I no re-do almost everything in leather instead. Re-leathering the pump in this organ was quite the project on its own. it is big enough that more than one hide was required to cover each of the bellows so I needed to learn how to skive leather, basically to make a scarf joint with no bump in the thickness.

I will be adding a non-invasive MIDI system to the organ to supplement the roll playing system allowing me to have a much larger music library.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I remember the dread associated with the condition of the kid leather bellows for the organ at Cambridge Port Church. You are a dedicated and patient fellow!

[glenn bradley]

If you make a template for a router with a collet you could first cut the hole with one router using a straight or spiral bit, and then cut the chamfer with another router set up with a chamfer bit.

Of drill the hole on the drill press, then cut the chamfer as described above, using a locator plug to guarantee the template is centered on the hole.

John


This is how I would go after it.

[Ronald Blue]

I'm sure there are some Creekers with a CNC in your area. If I was close I'd have done it just for the experience. I was thinking CNC when you showed the initial photo but the method you used worked great and didn't require anything more than some "tool re-engineering". and privilege of being a part of the restoration.

[Warren Lake]

depending on how many id get a router bit made to do it with a plunge router. Chip clearance could be an issue but the bit can be made with that in mind or plunge more than once if need be.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I keep everything as original as I can. Only traditional materials, mostly leather and hot hide glue in this instrument. Obtaining good rubber-covered cloth has become very difficult, I no re-do almost everything in leather instead. Re-leathering the pump in this organ was quite the project on its own. it is big enough that more than one hide was required to cover each of the bellows so I needed to learn how to skive leather, basically to make a scarf joint with no bump in the thickness.

I will be adding a non-invasive MIDI system to the organ to supplement the roll playing system allowing me to have a much larger music library.

Roger, do you document your projects? I would enjoy reading a blog, looking at pictures, or watching a video of one of your restorations. It takes a lot of time that you would probably rather spend spreading glue and making sawdust.
I am Googling "MIDI system organ supplement" next.

I found a YouTube in French and a site for "The Virtual Roll Player Interface"

[roger wiegand]

I've got many hundreds of pictures, mostly to help me remember how to put it back together. I'm about three articles behind on writing up something for one of the mechanical music collectors magazines, and I've only occasionally tried writing an ongoing series of posts -- did one here on building my last guitar, but this doesn't seem like an appropriate form for an organ refurbishing book.

Check out user DuoArtOrgan on youtube for a fellow who does extraordinary work of this kind.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Nothing to add now that it's done - but - thanks for an enjoyable hour - searching online & learning about (Joseph and) Arthur Bursens.