SawStop for Highschool Shop

[Frank Harpster]

Hey Guys, I'm new to SMC, and I know there have been a tone of threads about the cost benefit of the Sawstop and whether or not it makes people lazy, but I have a different question. I Teach woodshop at Cameron County Highschool and I am getting ready to order a sawstop machine for my lab. My concern is whether or not this saw is of the quality needed to endure the abuse a highschool woodshop can put on it. This saw will be run 8 periods a day 180 days a year by somewhere around 100 different people. If it is not top quality it will simply not hold up. If anyone can give me some input on the quality of the saw, it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Frank Pellow]

First of all, I see that this is your first post , so I would like to welcome you to Saw Mill Creek, Frank.

I don't own a SawStop but I have read a lot about it and the saw appears to be of good quaility. I believe that the fence is an extra-cost item and, again from what I have heard, it is not of good quality. So I would opt not to buy it and rather buy an after market fence such as Aquasquare. I would also buy an aftermarket mitre jig such as the one by Jessem.

[Marc Ward]

Make sure there are no hotdogs around the shop anywhere, or your budget could be broken having to buy new cartridges every week.

[Jared Minor]

Frank, which Cameron county are you refering to? It wouldn't happen to be in Texas would it?

[tod evans]

welcome frank! i honestly don`t think quality should be an issue with the saw. from what i`ve read it`s as good a saw as the other import offerings but fingers of children are priceless. (even if they are heathens:) )....02 tod

[Andy Hoyt]

Jim Hager put one in his school shop not long ago. Here's the thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24429). Worth reading.

[Jim Hager]

Hey Guys, I'm new to SMC, and I know there have been a tone of threads about the cost benefit of the Sawstop and whether or not it makes people lazy, but I have a different question. I Teach woodshop at Cameron County Highschool and I am getting ready to order a sawstop machine for my lab. My concern is whether or not this saw is of the quality needed to endure the abuse a highschool woodshop can put on it. This saw will be run 8 periods a day 180 days a year by somewhere around 100 different people. If it is not top quality it will simply not hold up. If anyone can give me some input on the quality of the saw, it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.


Hey Frank and welcome to the creek.

I teach agriculture in a jr. high and high school setting. We have recently acquired a SawStop with the 52" fence for our school. It seems that the saw will be a pretty good one but as with everything new there are a few glitches here and there. The saw arrived very well packed and crated and in several containers. We unpacked the saw and finally got around to assembly and we discovered several fasteners had been left out of the packaging. SS shipped them to us in a quick fashion. We finished assembly of the fence and fired it up for the first time and it seemed to have as much power as the unisaw it was replacing. As time went on we noticed a marked reduction in power that turned out to be slipping belts. It has serpentine belts one running from the motor to a final drive shaft then to the saw arbor. We contacted SS and they sent out new belts without any explanation of the cause of the problem. While I have not truly put the saw through its paces my first impressions are ok but not great. If it saves one finger it will be worth the cost for sure but I wouldn't buy one for my own shop.

There was a comment on the fence a bit earlier so I will address that as well. The fence looks to be a standard beismeyer fence. At least it has the same parts and sets up the very same way. It will definately hold up under the pressure of students given due care and concern by it's users.

The students have been using it some and so far they have not complained about it being much different to the unisaw. I did not order the machine my teaching partner got the machine using Carl Perkins Vocational funding, stating reasons to help protect the sp.ed students who might not be able to follow the standard rules of safety and commnon sense. I'm sure you have those kinds of students too.

[Anthony Anderson]

[quote=Jim Hager]Hey Frank and welcome to the creek.

As time went on we noticed a marked reduction in power that turned out to be slipping belts.
Jim, is there no way to adjust tension of the belts? I too am serious about buying one of these saws, but I haven't made the final decision yet.

We contacted SS and they sent out new belts without any explanation of the cause of the problem.
Were the original belts defective, or could it be something from the saw that caused premature belt wear?

While I have not truly put the saw through its paces my first impressions are ok but not great.
Could you elaborate on this. "Not Great" in what areas? Or is it just your feelings that it may not have been worth that much more than say a Unisaw, or PM; aside from the safety devices?

There was a comment on the fence a bit earlier so I will address that as well. The fence looks to be a standard beismeyer fence. At least it has the same parts and sets up the very same way. It will definately hold up under the pressure of students given due care and concern by it's users.
Was the face of the fence flat? Do you have the Biesemeyer fence at your home shop? If so, do you like it, love it, or is it just okay?

Thanks Jim, I really appreciate your input. Regards, Bill

[Frank Harpster]

Jim, I agree with you and infact was just saying to a co-worker that the cost of the machine alone is worthwhile if it saves one kids finger. I think that I am definitely getting one since I think my district will buy it without making me pay for it out of my budget:cool:. If they balk I'll probably look into that Carl Perkins Voc Funding someone mentioned. Someone asked if I was in Cameron County, Texas. No, I'm in Emporium, Pa which is right near the PA/NY boarder. Are there any owners out there from PA or Eastern NY?

[Anthony Anderson]

I believe that the fence is an extra-cost item and, again from what I have heard, it is not of good quality. So I would opt not to buy it and rather buy an after market fence such as Aquasquare.

Hi Frank, I can only remember Alan Turner stating that he did not like the fence. He said one side of the fence face was not flat, and that he had to bump the fence to fine adjust the rip width (this is common with Biesmeyers, and clones). I cannot imagine that SawStop would not have immediately shipped out another fence if they were made aware of the face not being flat. I have gathered that they have a reputation for excellent service and prompt response to address any claims. Have you heard complaints other than Alan's, regarding the fence? If so, could you share them? Thanks Frank, Regards, Bill

[Jim Hager]

[quote=Jim Hager]Hey Frank and welcome to the creek.

As time went on we noticed a marked reduction in power that turned out to be slipping belts.
Jim, is there no way to adjust tension of the belts? I too am serious about buying one of these saws, but I haven't made the final decision yet.

We contacted SS and they sent out new belts without any explanation of the cause of the problem.
Were the original belts defective, or could it be something from the saw that caused premature belt wear?

While I have not truly put the saw through its paces my first impressions are ok but not great.
Could you elaborate on this. "Not Great" in what areas? Or is it just your feelings that it may not have been worth that much more than say a Unisaw, or PM; aside from the safety devices?

There was a comment on the fence a bit earlier so I will address that as well. The fence looks to be a standard beismeyer fence. At least it has the same parts and sets up the very same way. It will definately hold up under the pressure of students given due care and concern by it's users.
Was the face of the fence flat? Do you have the Biesemeyer fence at your home shop? If so, do you like it, love it, or is it just okay?

Thanks Jim, I really appreciate your input. Regards, Bill

I haven't looked into the adjustment of the belts yet. No time right now for that but I can't imagine that there wouldn't be an adjustment.

My statement about not great was meant only that there wasn't any marked difference in the performance of the saw over the unisaw that we replaced. I find the blade guard somewhat combersome to use. If I had the choice of this saw or the unisaw equipped the same way I would have chosen a unisaw.

I have the beis fence on my home saws and I love em. Granted they are limited as to their use as compared to a unifence or some of the others but mine are dead on and stay that way. I have seen no problems due to the fence not being vertical or flat with either of the two beis fences that I have at home. I guess it is a matter of what you get used to using.

[Ellen Benkin]

I can't help but imagine that the reduction in liability insurance for the school district would pay for the saw. I've seen a demo of it in action and it is truly amazing. If I were running a high school shop I would try to get all my table saws to be SS just for safety sake.

One other point that was made earlier. When the saw "trips" you have to replace a part to reset it. My understanding is that the part costs about $150 each (someone told me, I have no real information). That could be a real cost over a year if the students start fooling around "testing" it. Does anyone have any comments on this problem?

[Brett Baldwin]

I would say that if the students couldn't help but "test" it, take away the power tool privledges for the class. It isn't fair to everyone but it teaches them all a valuable lesson. Even standing by while someone else does something wrong is contributing. My chemistry class was kicked out of the lab in high school because of the shenanigans of a couple of guys. We all knew they were doing it and we didn't stop them. That was a very book-learning heavy semester of chemistry for us.

[Ed Frie]

I am waiting for the contractor version of the Sawstop. I am only a hobbyist so I cannot justify the expense of the big one.
Having done a lot of anesthesia for tablesaw injuries over the years, you can bet I will definitely be buying one.
Ellen, I looked on their website and the replacement cartridge is listed at $69, but you probably have to replace the ruined blade as well.
In my opinion, still less expensive than an ER then OR visit with possible permanent disability. If I had a child taking shop I would almost insist on having the technology in the classroom.

[Christopher Pine]

Make sure there are no hotdogs around the shop anywhere, or your budget could be broken having to buy new cartridges every week.

and new sawblade and reset machine .......

[Bob Swenson]

We own one and love it. I would not tell the students about the safety
feature or they will be bringing hot dogs to class.
The cartridge is not hard to change and it needs to be changed when ever

you put in dado blades to the dado cartridge.
We installed an Incra fence, Woodpeckers outfeed table and the HTC Mobile Base.
It rides around our little shop like a kitty car.
What's not to like.:)

[Lars Thomas]

If I were running a shop class and had the means to buy it, I certainly would. The cost of the blade and cartridge is nominal when compared to the costs associated with the alternative. I have it as an idea in the back (way back) of my mind to replace my cabinet saw with a SS.

Depending on your district, what if you increased (or instituted) the 'Shop Fee' just enough to offset the difference between a Uni or PM66. So you've got 100 people at $10/per should more than cover the difference. I can't imagine a parent not willing to kick the ten spot to aid in their child's safety.

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Frank, I can only remember Alan Turner stating that he did not like the fence. He said one side of the fence face was not flat, and that he had to bump the fence to fine adjust the rip width (this is common with Biesmeyers, and clones). I cannot imagine that SawStop would not have immediately shipped out another fence if they were made aware of the face not being flat. I have gathered that they have a reputation for excellent service and prompt response to address any claims. Have you heard complaints other than Alan's, regarding the fence? If so, could you share them? Thanks Frank, Regards, Bill
I have read a lot of Saw Stop reviews and complaints about the fence have been common. I have also read that Saw Stop is working to correct the problem, but my attitude is that, since it is an extra-cost item anyway, why bother with the fence from Saw Stop.

You ask for other examples, so here is one from the the October 2005 issue of Popular Woodworking:

29794

[Anthony Anderson]

[quote=Frank Pellow]I have read a lot of Saw Stop reviews and complaints about the fence have been common. I have also read that Saw Stop is working to correct the problem, but my attitude is that, since it is an extra-cost item anyway, why bother with the fence from Saw Stop.

You ask for other examples, so here is one from the the October 2005 issue of Popular Woodworking:

Thanks Frank, I really appreciate the extra info. I am trying to find out all I can about every aspect of this saw. Regards, Bill

[Alan Turner]

I have the SS, and am replacing the fence. The first one was not bent correcly for tension on the bar, so they sent me another, pronto. It is better on this score, but neither of the fences is flat. They say you have to shim it to make it flat, but I am not so sure about this. The attachment method of the fence cover plate to metal seems a bit of a PITA. Were I to keep the fence, I think I would redrill it for something else, such as tee-nuts (out of the way of the possible blade areas). I also noted to the owner the coarse cursor/scale, but received no comment back on that issue.

The table was flat enough, but the wings (one was preinstalled) rose up quite a bit. Based on a suggestion from SS, I used aluminum foil to shim, and they are now flat with the main table. This was no big deal.

Finally, I noted to the owner that the black table extension and rail made them hard to see, but such is marketing, it seems. Black is faster.

Overall it is a good saw, but head and shoulders above the competition? Not in my view. The best feature is the riving knife. I am opening a teaching studio, and so felt I had no choice. The extra money was not enjoyable, but if it saves even one injury over time, then the money is not important.

I am building a bunch of workbenches, and in this process have been cutting and ripping a bunch of 12/4 hard maple, and laminated up 12/4 chestnut oak. I have the 5 hp, 1 ph., model, and am glad for it. It cuts/rips these heavy timbers without complaint.

Were I designing the saw, I would make it work in the bypass mode at any time, and thus give the user a choice about the brake, but the way it is wired, if you want to run a quick dado, then you need to install the 8" blade dado cartridge. I have an 8" dado on order, and so will soon see how difficult this is, although the Swenson family finds it to be quick, they noted.

Just my 2 cents.

[Per Swenson]

Here is the thread fellas, on the cartride change.

As with everything the first time is a little time consuming....

but once you get the idea , it's a snap.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28645&highlight=sawstop

Hope this helps.

Per

[Frank Harpster]

Well, it is time to submit our requisitions for next years supplies and I am balking ato submitting the SawStop request. The Admin. is on board and the word is already out that we're getting one, but this talk of the fence being junk scares me, as does the post I read about bad switches setting off the brake for no reason:confused:. Is there anyone out there who lives in PA or southwest NY that has a saw stop I might be able to come look at. Ordering this offline without ever seeing one is a bit scary, especially being a first year teacher.

[Alan Turner]

Frank,
I think I have made comments about both points you raise.

I am opening a teaching studio, and while not crazy about the fence, it is not bad. I have tweaked it again, and it is getting better. For the teaching setting, I would have no other saw, I think. Safety is a primary concern.

As to the switch, it is my understanding that all new ones have the replacement switch, which SS fed-ex'd to me upon a Saturday afternoon call.

If you would like to examine mine in Philadelphia, I will be glad to cooperate. Just shoot me a private message or email.

[Roy Wall]

Well, it is time to submit our requisitions for next years supplies and I am balking ato submitting the SawStop request. The Admin. is on board and the word is already out that we're getting one, but this talk of the fence being junk scares me, as does the post I read about bad switches setting off the brake for no reason:confused:. Is there anyone out there who lives in PA or southwest NY that has a saw stop I might be able to come look at. Ordering this offline without ever seeing one is a bit scary, especially being a first year teacher.


Alan Turner lives in Philly and has a Woodworking school with a Sawstop...send him a PM - He may be able to help.

IMHO, this is a perfect TS for a high school. Why wouldn't you get it? It has a two year warranty - if something is wrong they will fix it. IF the fence is bad, send it back! IF the whole saw keeps giving you trouble , send the whole thing back!!!

My Sawstop fence (and tape measure) is fine & rock solid...it's as good as any Biesmeyer out there. The web can be full of exaggerations.....

If the riving knife is too close to the back of the blade- 1/8" (2-3mm)....it can trigger the brake for whatever reason. Sawstop has learned from this and clearly states in the manual to keep it 5mm away from the back of the blade - this is the fix.

Minimax sends out a few clunkers now and then....needs a new switch here, a new bearing there, bad blade over there, etc....they try and make it right. If Sawstop won't make it right, then I'd pack it up and send it back.

[scott spencer]

Welcome to the Creek Frank. I don't own the SS, but have read numerous glowing reports of it's construction. It's fairly new out, so the test of time is still pending. The added safety benefit of this saw seems very logical for a classroom environment. I have read of some false firings of the brake. I would try hard to NOT let the students know that the braking system exists....inquiring minds might want to see it in action!

Regarding the fence...why not just order a Biese or other heavy duty proven entity.

[David Mueller]

That could be a real cost over a year if the students start fooling around "testing" it. Does anyone have any comments on this problem?

I would make the parents sign a form that they will reimburse the school if someone was found to be "abusing the system".

[Frank Harpster]

Thank you everyone for all of your imput. Roy, I'm glad to hear your that you are so happy with yours. You ask why I balked, it's becasue I am a first year teacher and the idea of spending a bunch of money on something that turns out to be junk is a scary one. Your comment about sending it back is a fine one, but my shop can't be without my tablesaw for even a week very easily. I'm getting it though. The school board is for it so I am jumping at the chance. I'll check back in as to how I like it. Thnaks Again.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

I understand the push for the SS. I have, however, a concern. Will the confidence of having a SS for an extra safety precaution have a negative effect if and when users trained on it move on to another situation that does not have this built in precaution? High school students think they are invincible anyway. Could this lead to problems down the road?

[Jacob Griffith]

A couple of thoughts Frank,

I managed to get a SawStop ICS in the fall of '07 for the high school ag. shop where I teach. So far, two thumbs up on everything.

Here are my thoughts.
1. Get the Industrial Cabinet Saw if you can. There is a difference between it and the PCS. My only complaint with the ICS is that the cast iron scratches easily, but I gather that seems to be a trend with all SS saws.

2. This saw has enough expose, your kids will know about the breaking system as soon as they see it. In many ways, we have to trust students to do the right thing, even when no one is looking.

[Rick Moyer]

Uh, Jacob, this thread was started four years ago. I suspect he isn't still trying to make a decision, unless he's like me:).

[Dave Sharpe]

Frank,
Welcome to the Creek and the ongoing saga/debate about SawStops. I'm a hobbyist who bought the SawStop contractor's version about a year ago and I'm very happy with it. no problems with the fence, accuracy is great, and the saw seems to power through almost anything I ask of it. Customer service is quick as well - when I unpacked mine there was a fence locking handle missing. One phone call and the handle was on it's way without any argument.

For the last several months I've been teaching some local kids about woodworking on an informal home-school kind of basis. I'm not a teacher by trade, and they're not my kids so I'm very anxious about safety in the shop, and I haven't let them use the tablesaw yet. But I have showed them the braking system and how to use a tablesaw in general. My thoughts are that the kids should be given the knowledge that the saw 'should' help prevent serious injury, but the brake won't activate unless they do something wrong - which will result in at least a minor injury. The owner's manual is very clear on this point - that an injury (albeit a minor scratch) MUST occur in order to trigger the brake. If there's a way to make the kid's responsible for the cost of a new blade and brake, make it clear that any activation - accidental or otherwise - will result in them having to pay the $1oo or more to replace the brake and blade.

When buying the saw, be sure to buy an extra brake system for both the regular blade and for a dado blade. Otherwise the saw is out of service until new cartridges come in. Better to have them on hand so that there is only a short delay while a new cartridge and blade is installed.

I have had two incidents of false triggering of the brake (expensive mistakes). One was when I cut into a hidden screw in the jig I was using, the second was when cutting some cedar that was a bit wet. Both cases were due to my own errors, and while I grumbled about the cost of replacing the cartridge and blades, I;m still glad to have the safety feature. And NO, I've never had the slightest urge to stick my own finger in the blade to test the system!

For what it's worth, I'd think the liability for NOT having a SawStop would be huge in your case. A parent contemplating the end of a child's dreams of being a concert pianaist would be quick to pounce on any school that failed to provide this safety feature. Consider a driver's training program that chose not to require student's to wear seat belts.......

[Dave Sharpe]

OOPS - sorry bout that. I just saw the note about this thread being several years old. Don't mean to fan the SS flame wars.....

[Van Huskey]

Jeebus! I read the whole thread not noticing the dates!

But, for the record and if anyone else seraches the question:

"This saw will be run 8 periods a day 180 days a year by somewhere around 100 different people. If it is not top quality it will simply not hold up. If anyone can give me some input on the quality of the saw, it would be appreciated."

Simple ICS YES, PCS or CS probably not.

[Jeff Monson]

Me too!!! Until I saw Tod Evans and Per Swenson, I thought I was in the twilight zone for a minute! Kind of freaked me out until I looked at the date. I do miss Tods posts though, he IMO gave some really good WW advice.

[Curtis Regentin]

Frank,

I'm a retired high school woodworking instructor. The year I retired (2007) we received a state added cost grant of $15,000. I replaced the shop's three table saws with Saw Stops, one set up for ripping, one for crosscutting, and the last one for dadoing. The administration was delighted! We had two trips in the few months we used them before I left. In one the student ran an aluminum miter fence into the blade, and in the other we videotaped a hot dog test in front of all the woodworking students, board members and administrators. Saw Stop sent us a free replacement cartridge when I called them to order the replacement once they heard why it had kicked.

My replacement is DELIGHTED that the shop has the Saw Stops, and the last I heard has had one additional trip. To my knowledge there have been no kickbacks. After one young man was hit in the most tender of areas, we only had three or four since. I only had to recount that incident each time I did my table saw instruction.

I ended up playing the videotape at the vocational technical banquet just before I left. Since then all the intermediate district woodworking and building trade HS programs have added Saw Stops to their shops. I helped assemble six of them last fall. Saw Stop has definitely improved their manual and the packaging. Assembling those new saws was a treat. Now I'm saving the dollars for one for my home shop.

Good luck on your purchase!

[Jacob Griffith]

Uh, Jacob, this thread was started four years ago. I suspect he isn't still trying to make a decision, unless he's like me:).


LOL. I don't pay attention to dates. Although why if no one had posted to the thread for 3 years did it show up on my front page?

[Paul Ryan]

Guys,

I wouldn't get too crazy responding to Frank, he hasn't visited the creek since Feb of 2006. But if you have advice maybe someone else will read this thread.

[Ed Taylor Greensboro NC]

Would use of the SS in a school shop constitute commercial use? How would this affect the warranty? I don't read anything on their website about a different warranty for commercial use, though!

[guy knight]

i own a ics ss and have found the fence to be on par with pm delts jet and mine is flate and true as far as quality build none of the other for mentioned brands come close to its build or quality and as far as running everyday for years of abuse by students it was built to take it and last

[Dave Cav]

One thing no one has mentioned is that you need a good dust collection system to connect to your SS. We have an industrial model at school. The dust collection on the saw is pretty well engineered but my d/c system is in pretty bad shape, and the saw will clog and fill the cabinet very easily. I normally need to check at least once a day to see if the dust collection tube from the blade shroud is plugged up. Hopefully we will get a new d/c system this summer.