Mitutoyo Dial Indicators Recommenation

[derek labian]

I currently have a digital dial indicator with resolution of .001. I was thinking about going to an analog and a better indicator. Batteries are always dying and analog just seems easier to use. I was looking at the Mitutoyo indicators.

My application will be jointer/shaper tooling setup initially.

I see there are .001 resolution dials that have resets on them so you can zero them out, and there are other dials with resolution of .0002 but don't appear to be resettable. Few questions:

1. It seems like .001 is enough for woodworking? The .0005 or .0002 is attractive but it seems like it might be overkill.
2. How important is the ability to reset? (I'm assuming the .0002 analog etc can't be reset).
3. The ruby tip seems nice, any thoughts?

Anyone have any specific recommendations? I saw several threads that recommended HF.. It seems like a shame to spend $150 on a holder and $20 on the actual indicator, but I don't want to waste money either.

[Lisa Starr]

Derek, I'm a firm believer that you get what you pay for. The repeatability of the HF is probably iffy. I'm sure the .001" would be fine for woodworking, but I'd prefer a .0005". I'm not sure if you're looking at a dial indicator or a dial test indicator so I'm not sure I understand the "reset" feature you're asking about.

[derek labian]

Derek, I'm a firm believer that you get what you pay for. The repeatability of the HF is probably iffy. I'm sure the .001" would be fine for woodworking, but I'd prefer a .0005". I'm not sure if you're looking at a dial indicator or a dial test indicator so I'm not sure I understand the "reset" feature you're asking about.

Hi Lisa,

Thanks, thats because I don't understand really what I'm doing :) I was referring to the stopwatch type setup. I assumed that allowed you to "reset" the dial to zero. I'm really just looking for a recommendation on a good model for Jointer setup with appropriate accuracy.

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The .0005 looks like this

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They don't indicate that these are dial indicator or dial test, I'm assuming they have different applications.

[Kevin Jenness]

I've had a Mitutoyo analog model for about 40 years, it still works fine. .001" grads, the dial rotates to set zero. Sorry, don't have a model #. A button tip is more useful for knife setting than a ball tip. A holder with fine adjustment is worthwhile. I have never regretted paying for quality measuring devices.

[Dan Friedrichs]

You want the first one (the 0.001" version), not the second.

I like nice measurement tools (and have several Mitutoyo calipers, etc), but for a relative-indication measurement like this, a cheap dial will work just fine...

[Jared Sankovich]

.001" analog is plenty for machine setup. You can easily read to .0005" and better with one. A noga (or clone) indicator stand is nice to have. I have a few in the woodshop.

[Lisa Starr]

Derek,

The first one is a Dial Indicator, the second one is a Dial Test Indicator. You want the Dial Indicator. Zero is set by rotating the outer bezel ring on this type of indicator, no matter what graduations the face has.

[derek labian]

Thank you for the help and information.


I've had a Mitutoyo analog model for about 40 years, it still works fine. .001" grads, the dial rotates to set zero. Sorry, don't have a model #. A button tip is more useful for knife setting than a ball tip. A holder with fine adjustment is worthwhile. I have never regretted paying for quality measuring devices.

Good point. I will get a model with some different heads.

[Mark Bolton]

Order #2 for sure. That way you'll be guaranteed from the instant you take it out of the box that every piece of equipment you own will be catastrophically flawed and that you'll never produce a single finished piece to your satisfaction. It may guarantee you never even get to the stage of plugging in your equipment.

Any work you do get to produce you will eternally be disappointed because it, nor do your machines, satisfy that dastardly pointer on the indicator. This will all of course be endlessly interspersed with driving every manufacturer of equipment you purchased absolutely and utterly insane because of said #2 indicator. (These manufacturers will more than likely default to sending a covert, black ops crew, to your shop in the darkest of night to either destroy, damage, or internally re-calibrate your precision .0005" indicating equipment in an effort to stop your endless calls and protect their livelihoods from bankruptcy).

I would advise hiding all your ultra precision test equipment in a high security location to keep it away from the black ops, and hopefully make it as hard as possible on yourself to access said equipment.

You can read endless tests on-line and youtube with regards to Mitutoyo, all the way down to Horror Freight or worse. Its not to say the Mitutoyo and its equals are not the creme'de la creme' but they are far from necessary for most anything in this world. I have a few nice Starrett and Brown and Sharpe indicators and mic's and a couple pairs of Mitutoyo calipers I have landed on for pennies at auctions but they are used in the wood shop on rare occasion. I keep a half dozen pairs of inexpensive dial caliper and digital calipers scattered around the shop to make regular measures. Several indicators on mag bases. None of the shop dial indicators are anything remotely close to the mitutoyos.

You can read tenths pretty well on a .001 indicator even an el-cheapo. The point is, if you let yourself into that rabbit hole, you may as well just stay in bed.

[Dan Friedrichs]

That was hilarious, Mark :D

[roger wiegand]

My digital Mitutoyo indicator has had its battery changed only once in the 15 years I've had it. Unlike some of the cheap digital calipers I have (the $15 ones) that eat batteries regularly the dial indicator seems to last forever. If you find analog easier to use of course you should go that way.

Budget for a good, sturdy magnetic base. That may be more important than the indicator you choose.

[derek labian]

For anyone else referencing this thread:

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[Michael Drew]

My other "hobby", beside woodworking is engine building. Race applications. I have a need for instruments that read in tenths, so that's what I buy. I am old school, and prefer clocks, so I do not have any digital devices, although - as my eye sight continues to degrade, digital is starting to apeal to me.

I prefer Mitutoyo and Starett devices. I have some older Brown and Sharp, as well, but newer stuff isn't as nice.

These are nice dials. I have several. You can get others that read in half thou that are a bit less exspensive. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002SG7PJI/?coliid=I39NN3V2FSLJIB&colid=2BVAQ4ADQW5GY&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

[Andrew Hughes]

I don’t like the super cheap dial indicators they are too twitchy. I have several from China that came with other stuff.
I have a indicator from this company https://www.shars.com/products/measuring/dial-indicators. They are pretty darn good.
It still like my federal the best it’s so smooth.

[Patrick McCarthy]

What is your problem exactly?

Derek,
I think Mark is sensitive tot he fact some of us tend to get "analysis paralysis" and go down the proverbial rabbit hole on the possibilities which, although worthy of consideration, can effectively stop forward progress in actually making anything. I may have veered into that trap on occasion, but a tight fitting joint is more from experience doing it and getting used to the actual things that influence the end result . . . such as cutting to the knife line, sawing at the correct angle, using a bench hook or other jigs, etc. Accurate measurements are important, equipment set-up is important, but there is a balance which is sometimes elusive. My tools are all pretty darn good, but there are many people on this forum who can make better furniture than me, and many with "lesser" tools. The difference is that they have done it so much that they see the big picture of how it all fits together in the "real world." Another consideration that comes into it is moisture content, seasonal movement, etc., . . . . once we play with those, the accuracy to 0.001 seems a bit pointless. Bottom-line, i think Mark was just trying to encourage you to start making sawdust. Best, Patrick

[Mark Bolton]

but a tight fitting joint is more from experience doing it and getting used to the actual things that influence the end result . . . such as cutting to the knife line, sawing at the correct angle, using a bench hook or other jigs, etc

Or maybe just gob a whole bunch more glue on and sand in a pile of sawdust while the glue is still wet(:D:D:eek::o:confused::p).

Well written.

[derek labian]

Derek,
I think Mark is sensitive tot he fact some of us tend to get "analysis paralysis" and go down the proverbial rabbit hole on the possibilities which, although worthy of consideration, can effectively stop forward progress in actually making anything. I may have veered into that trap on occasion, but a tight fitting joint is more from experience doing it and getting used to the actual things that influence the end result . . . such as cutting to the knife line, sawing at the correct angle, using a bench hook or other jigs, etc. Accurate measurements are important, equipment set-up is important, but there is a balance which is sometimes elusive. My tools are all pretty darn good, but there are many people on this forum who can make better furniture than me, and many with "lesser" tools. The difference is that they have done it so much that they see the big picture of how it all fits together in the "real world." Another consideration that comes into it is moisture content, seasonal movement, etc., . . . . once we play with those, the accuracy to 0.001 seems a bit pointless. Bottom-line, i think Mark was just trying to encourage you to start making sawdust. Best, Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I agree with everything you said with one caveat. The point here is that Mark has no real idea what I'm doing. I am "making stuff", and I was in the middle of a project when I started trying to determine if I had a technique issue on this new equipment or a setup issue. If you read that other thread, a lot of users suggested I buy a longer/better strait edge, so I did. If I'm going to buy tools for a second or third time, I'd like to buy a lifetime tool. Thats just my personal preference. Again to your point, I never did stop working on my project.

I'd further add that Mark's sarcasm goes a bit over the top. For example:

"The relationship of fixed tables to cutter head to moving table." or "Its clear from your posts that you honestly really dont have a concept about how this equipment "works""

Not only is he just rude and incorrect, but its not helpful. For someone like me who isn't doing this for a living and doesn't have 20 years of experience, I could read everything I can find on jointer setup, do it perfectly, and if I switch machines in a couple of years, I'm going to have to do it again. The breadth of things to learn is just broad and repetition breads familiarity. He doesn't seem to understand this.

A common thread from Mark seems to be "hobbyist"'s ruining vendors for "everyone else" by harassing them endlessly. This must be more about him projecting his ideas about what's happening as I've only called tech support (for any equipment) once in two years because its generally not helpful. I don't fault anyone for calling tech support.


My tools are all pretty darn good, but there are many people on this forum who can make better furniture than me, and many with "lesser" tools.

I agree, tools are no replacement for skill & experience, and I've seen amazing things created with "pedestrian" tools. I would add to that though, I've found better tools compensates for less skill, and because I'm time restricted, I try to buy better tools to compensate somewhat.

[derek labian]

Or maybe just gob a whole bunch more glue on and sand in a pile of sawdust while the glue is still wet(:D:D:eek::o:confused::p).

Well written.

I would never put glue on my sawdust, its imported from Europe and made from only the finest timber.

[Bill Dufour]

A mushroom tip is nice for setting knives etc. Beware Mitutoyo makes nothing in China. All the Mitutoyos on ebay from China are fakes.
Bill D.

Federal, fowler, intrepid, hellios and B+S made some nice meterology gear.

http://www.longislandindicator.com/p14.html

[Charles Coolidge]

Mitutoyo superfan here. Let's start with the two styles you posted.

#1 - is a "dial drop indicator". It has a spring loaded indicator rod that moves up/down. These typically have a LOT more travel than a test indicator, 1-2 inches is common. As such the accuracy is typically less than a test indicator .001 even .002 for longer travel indicators. That stop watch looking knob does not set or zero the indicator. It's actually just a clamp for the bezel. Typically you position your indicator onto the part you are measuring, loading the indicator say with .1 inch of travel. Now the spring is holding the indicator onto the part. You then spin the bezel around moving the "0" to align with the needle and you call that zero. If you were measuring say plus and minus on the object you are measuring using a 1 inch dial drop indicator you could push the indicator into the part .5 inch, turn the bezel to zero, then you have plus and minus .5 inch of travel to measure. Some also have a 2nd smaller inner dial that counts 10th's of an inch like my Mitutoyo 2416S-10 dial drop indicator. The needle on this 1 inch dial drop indicator spins around 10 times .100 inch with each rotation giving a total of 1 inch of travel. The smaller inner dial keeps track of the number of .1 inch rotations. https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-Dial-Indicator/dp/B00WMLI72S

#2 - is a "dial test indicator". The actuator on these moves side to side vs up and down for the drop indicator. So you would position the indictor up against the side of the part you are measuring. Sometimes when using these you need the arm to reach out, under For example up against the side of a table saw arbor to measure the run out of the arbor while turning it. The total length of travel is typically much shorter and with high accuracy tolerance, .0001 or even greater. So table saw arbors, drill press arbors, shafts where you want sub .001 accuracy. EDIT: Note while the total travel may only be .030 inch you can move the indicator arm back and forth about .600 inch total distance. This is to aid in positioning the indicator where the body of the indicator might be getting in the way. You might push the arm forward say .4 inches, from there you have your .030 inch of dial travel. Unlike the drop indicator the test indicators can reach in and around things.

For both they come in a dizzying array of models, total travel, accuracy, and something to pay close attention to how they attach to the magnetic base. I prefer Noga magnetic base indicator holders. Some indicators come with a dovetail on the back and the Noga base accommodates those. Some come with a lug back, basically a U shaped lug with a hole in it and they screw onto the indicator holder. The woodworking A-Line-It holder for example to test table saw blade runout, parallel with miter slot, etc. note that jig requires an indicator with a lug see this photo back https://www.woodcraft.com/products/a-line-it-basic-kit

As for Mitutoyo battery life as someone above mentioned, battery life is in years they last forever dang near in Mitutoyo measuring tools. My Mitutoyo digital calipers must be coming up on 18 years old, I have changed the batter twice.

[Tom Levy]

I think if you publicly advertise setting new forum records for volume of money spent on workshop/equipment to bf processed into finished work, while fail diagnosing one of the top $$ machines you can buy, it’s no surprise the grizzled vets will come out to feast on red meat.

Imagine buying XYZ classic car for a boatload of money, not knowing how to drive stick shift and grinding gears at the car meet as the new guy. There is no hobby / activity where being clueless, highly visible, big spending new money guy goes over well.

If I had that kind of money I would absolutely spend it on one of those six month furniture building classes at the top schools.

[Charles Coolidge]

Beware Mitutoyo makes nothing in China. All the Mitutoyos on ebay from China are fakes.

^^^ KABOOM!! Mitutoyo Japan is trying to combat those scumbags in CHINA counterfeiting their products. If you are going to purchase Mitutoyo make sure you purchase from a reputable retailer. And I would AVOID high volume retailers because another scam is people purchase the genuine test indicator, then drop in the counterfeit and return it. Big volume retailers don't really inspect if someone is returning a fake.

[Greg Quenneville]

Hey Derek…

When Igrew up in an automotive town the most revered skilled trades were the millwrights who would maintain and adjust the machines used in manufacture and assembly. That’s what we all have to try to be, on a small scale, when we have to maintain and adjust our little home furniture factories.

It takes some time to learn this stuff.

Get two dial indicators, and another stand. Noga makes a beautiful articulated stand that avoids the frustrations of Chinese magnetic base stands that can be pretty floppy. Etalon (Hexagon Metrology…sometimes labelled Tesa or Interapid) makes an even better one, but I don’t know if you can still get them.

You might want to get some feeler gauges if you don’t already have some.They can be handy for a quick assessment of many things that are supposed to be straight and colinear but often aren’t. Fences come to mind.

I will check my copy of Machine Tool Reconditioning…it has some woodworking machines tuning in the last chapter.

On edit: nope. Must have been some other old book I was thinking of.

Good luck

Greg

[John K Jordan]

…
Budget for a good, sturdy magnetic base. That may be more important than the indicator you choose.

That’s my philosophy too. I have several magnetic bases of different styles. The quickest to set up is the type with a single clamp knob.

I paid over $100 for this Noga magnetic base about 8 years ago and I’m glad I did. It’s rock-strady, clamps well, and the micro adjust is very smooth.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002K07CTK

Some time later I bought a couple of cheap imitations for about $30:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00L5T2ZA8
They are fine for what I bought them for but the Noga is the one I use at the mill and lathe. However, I think either would be fine for woodworking applications. For example I keep one dial indicator at the wood lathe on a cheap magnetic stand for things like aligning turned pieces on a jam chuck. “Close” is good enough and I don’t want the better instruments around the fine wood dust.

As for dial indicators my experience is also "you get what you pay for.” I have Starretts and Brown&Sharp and some cheaper, Grizzly and no-names. The cheaper dial instruments sometimes are not as repeatable. But again, for aligning things like a saw for woodworking applications I don’t see the advantage of a $300 instrument over a much cheaper one.

I’ve never felt a need to use my good dial test indicator in the wood shop.

[Warren Lake]

I use the dial a fair bit. Mitutoyo it reads to .0005 but you can see finer, .00025 easily as its a needle and not digital.

It and the caliper both likely 40 years on them. They have seen a photo of my caliper as the email was sent with a compliment. Like my Panasonic FZ28 beat to snot for years. The watch took a licking but kept on ticking. If you can put up with me you make good products. I think batteries last 3-4 years and that includes all the times I found it been on sometimes for days from pressure in the tool belt.



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Knife projection here is .112 above the head but you can clearly see its not. increments are .0005 resolution but even in this low rez screen save from the video you can see 2/3 of .0005 so you can get great resolution from these. THe draw back is im in a freezing cold garage, I have not cleaned the stem in years, Im striking the knife when I enter into it from the side of the convex tip and the biggest draw back is my clamp base is just not good enough to measure these finer levels. If I zero on the head and go forward it reads over zero, if go back wards it goes under zero so there is some amount of movement in the magnetic base and arms. Still its splitting hairs.

I am measuring a machine someone else set up, never seen a machine worse in my life. The cutting circle will be junk and cant see how any of the rollers or pressure bars below can be set up to make it work

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[Michael Drew]

The Noga mag bases are great, provided you can find something to stick them too.....

I thought the OP was about indicators, now it's calipers, or insturments and whether they belong in a woodshop in general?

Man, some people sure get cranky over the simplest things. Who cares if someone wants to spend a couple Benjamins on a dial. It's not like it's your money.

[Greg Quenneville]

On the counterfeit note, when I purchased new indicators I bought from Long Island Indicator. Their website is worth a visit for detailed, chatty information on their stock. They are serious people who have been in business for 70+ years. I have also used their repair service and was very pleased. Zero worries about counterfeits or returns when you buy from them.

I did have a Mitutoyo dealer local to me, but they didn’t want to know about retail customers.

[Anuj Prateek]

I don’t like the super cheap dial indicators they are too twitchy. I have several from China that came with other stuff.
I have a indicator from this company https://www.shars.com/products/measuring/dial-indicators. They are pretty darn good.
It still like my federal the best it’s so smooth.

Not a model recommendation but a purchase tip.

I bought a Mitutoyo dial indicator (0.0005") for $37 in 2018. Search Mitutoyo on Amazon. Select Amazon as seller in filters. Then sort low to high. Dial indicators seem like a slow moving product and pop up at low price often. Bought a few rules similarly. YMMV.

Edit:

Did a search. My results may be restricted given shipping destination is set to Canada.

Mitutoyo 2046S: $44. This is is mm but "generally" should not matter is testing variance.

Mitutoyo 2976TB: $39. 0.001" model.

Mitutoyo 2977TB: $46. 0.0005" model.

[Brian Holcombe]

Only stand I really like is the Starrett flex-o-post.

I’d pickup a few precision tools, they’re endlessly handy. Mark is right in that you will drive yourself a bit nuts with this stuff until you start to get a good feel for it, but I would still own them since they have so many uses.

Mitutoyo is great, not terribly expensive but very good. You can spend a lot more if you so desire, but Mitutoyo usually fits the bill. Interapid is a common choice for test indicators and if you have a desire to have the über quality then Mahr and Tesa.

[John K Jordan]

...
Mitutoyo is great, not terribly expensive but very good. You can spend a lot more if you so desire, but Mitutoyo usually fits the bill. Interapid is a common choice for test indicators and if you have a desire to have the über quality then Mahr and Tesa.

I started wondering about Mitutoyo after reading this thread:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?295695-Mitutoyo-500-193-20-12-quot-Absolute-Digimatic-Digital-Caliper-Chinese-Knock-Off

Any thoughts on that?

JKJ

[Brian Holcombe]

Thoughts in what respect?

I buy mainly through McMaster-Carr and they sell real ones.

[Warren Lake]

am radio had a show years ago on offshore knock off. I was worried my Louis Vitton hand bag might be fake. They said they run 24 hours and one complete shift is for counterfeit stuff. In the US i think they said car parts just car parts was over 10 billion. I questioned a Rock Auto type supplier up here once if they had counterfeit parts and they said they make sure not but if ever any concerns to make sure we bring it to their attention. Pretty sad the whole thing.

[Tom M King]

In the lifetime accumulation of machinist tools I was left by a dear friend that passed is a 4'x7'x1'deep metal cabinet with two doors on the front full of measuring tools. Before I was left all that stuff, I bought the Deluxe A Line It kit.

When I first bought that kit, I thought I've never use all those interchangeable tips, but since then, they've proved good to have many times. I've never needed any of that machinist tooling to set up a woodworking machine. That A-LineIt kit is in my Setup toolbox, and it's done all I've needed. I have no idea even what brand the dial indicator is that's in it, but I don't care a bit. It works fine.

https://www.in-lineindustries.com/products/a-line-it-deluxe/

[Robert London]

I have the Quinn digital calipers from Harbor Freight. Overall, I like them and seem like decent quality for ~$50. HF has improved their quality over the last few years and I'm no longer as reluctant to buy items from them. You just have to be picky and stay away from the cheapest of the cheap.

[John K Jordan]

I started wondering about Mitutoyo after reading this thread:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?295695-Mitutoyo-500-193-20-12-quot-Absolute-Digimatic-Digital-Caliper-Chinese-Knock-Off
Any thoughts on that?
JKJ


Thoughts in what respect?
I buy mainly through McMaster-Carr and they sell real ones.

That's a good idea. I wondered how commonly cheap knockoffs of top name tools were sold and how to protect against it.

JKJ

[Charles Coolidge]

That's a good idea. I wondered how commonly cheap knockoffs of top name tools were sold and how to protect against it.

JKJ

I saw this issue last week with a higher end cue ball. Scammers were purchasing the $38 que ball from a major online retailer, stuffing a counterfeit cue ball into the package and returning it for a refund. Then the counterfeit was shipped out to a new legitimate customer who wondered why it chipped and crack so easily. The counterfeit isn't even the same material. AND there's nothing they won't counterfeit, they counterfeit $10 Fender guitar neck heal reinforcement plates. (face palm) The genuine plates are chrome plated steel, the counterfeits are chrome plated pot metal. You can literally bend the counterfeit in half with your bare hands. The counterfeit plates are sold all over major online retailers.

[Myk Rian]

I spent 20 years repairing and calibrating precision tools. HF indicators were just as good as Federal, Starrett, Mitutoyo, etc, as long as the movement is free and easy.

[Brian Holcombe]

They might read similarly but most likely will fail sooner and sometimes it’s just nice to have a nicely made thing. That is why we all make things out of wood, after all, isn’t it?

[Charles Coolidge]

We will agree to disagree on HF

[Warren Lake]

in electronic the cheap stuff will cost you more in the batteries it eats. You see my caliper I doubt the cheap stuff would do the years that caliper did. when it comes to measuring stuff moisture meter whatever id rather get a proven level of quality, and id rather support them than some knock off. Ever had your work knocked off before? Also find the mititoyou more comfortable to use than the two lee valley ones that I have as back ups.

[Alex Zeller]

I've used pretty much every quality level made. For some jobs the HF quality ones work just fine. The biggest problem I've seen with them is the spring rate isn't very consistent. Also they aren't as smooth as higher quality ones. I have all Mitutoyo ones at home as they seem to be good quality. I'm glad I bought them before having to worry about counterfeit ones. At work we use ones that are contactless so the spring pushing down the contact tip doesn't impact the measurement. Both with lasers and capacitance but they are most likely above what you would want to spend.

[derek labian]

I think if you publicly advertise setting new forum records for volume of money spent on workshop/equipment to bf processed into finished work, while fail diagnosing one of the top $$ machines you can buy, it’s no surprise the grizzled vets will come out to feast on red meat.

I wasn't aware that 1) i was "advertising" anything buy asking if anyone had a process for aligning infeed and outfeed tables on a particular model (since several users on there have done it), and 2) I doubt buying a hobby brand, Minimax, jointer/planer is setting any records anywhere, there are many users on here with Combos. I've seen many users on here discuss far more expensive equipment. Many user on here buy for the long term, more than they "need" so they can "buy once".


Imagine buying XYZ classic car for a boatload of money, not knowing how to drive stick shift and grinding gears at the car meet as the new guy. There is no hobby / activity where being clueless, highly visible, big spending new money guy goes over well.

Just Wow. You don't really know much about me, what I'm building or have built, or what my plans are. I have been woodworking and improving my skills for 3 years, and have finished some great projects. There is no license to get and you are no gatekeeper. It is a bit sad that this is the environment this forum wants to promote. I wouldn't exactly call myself "clueless" or "new". I went from a benchtop, to a freestanding jointer, to this combo for space. I certainly don't need to justify myself to you.


If I had that kind of money I would absolutely spend it on one of those six month furniture building classes at the top schools.

You speak from a position of ignorance and out of place.


grizzled vets will come out to feast on red meat

Thats just a way of being elitist, a bully, and looking down upon anyone asking questions you consider "beneath yourself". When you aren't a "grizzled vet", you are going to run into situations and problems all the time that you haven't encountered. You try to resolve them and sometimes you ask for help. Along the way you learn stuff. No one knows what they don't know. Thats the nice thing about this forum, most users provide help, opinion and perspective. One day when I'm in a position of many years of experience, I hope I'm more helpful to those with less experience then calling people clueless.

[Jared Sankovich]

There are 2 schools of thought on machine setup. One camp sets up things with a stick and the other setup things with a micrometer.

Amusingly both work.

It's also amusing when someone from one camp visits a shop that adheres to the other methods. Chaos and confusion follows.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Derek, For better or worse, we are a mixed group here. Notably, several of the people that responded in this and your other thread are VERY knowledgeable and well respected for their talent, experience and willingness to share. Some here have the ability to tell one to "Go to hell." in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip; others, not so much. My perception is you are taking personal offense at gruffness or direct responses, and missing the content. The content is the golden nugget, isn't it?

Your choice, of course, but i am not certain that responding to every perceived slight is productive. It may be better to take a deep breath - or several - and then, analyze without emotion the information provided - ie, look at what was said and not how it was said - and continue on the journey . . . in the shop. The keyboard can be an
impediment to forward motion. JMHO, YMMV

I shall not be interjecting further. Best, Patrick

[Mike Kees]

Extremely well said ,Patrick.

[Charles Coolidge]

I'll summarize Patrick's post...

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[Ronald Blue]

Agreed Mike. Patrick stated it well. The other thing is words on a screen are easy to take different then they were intended. I've deleted comments here and other places because after typing them I decided it either wasn't what I intended it to be or it was and wasn't helpful or kind.

[derek labian]

Derek, For better or worse, we are a mixed group here. Notably, several of the people that responded in this and your other thread are VERY knowledgeable and well respected for their talent, experience and willingness to share. Some here have the ability to tell one to "Go to hell." in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip; others, not so much. My perception is you are taking personal offense at gruffness or direct responses, and missing the content. The content is the golden nugget, isn't it?


Your choice, of course, but I am not certain that responding to every perceived slight is productive. It may be better to take a deep breath - or several - and then, analyze without emotion the information provided - i.e., look at what was said and not how it was said - and continue on the journey . . . in the shop. The keyboard can be an
impediment to forward motion. JMHO, YMMV


I shall not be interjecting further. Best, Patrick


Hi Patrick,


I got the message more or less.


As I said before, I think there is just a skew of perception and reality. I'm clearly being perceived in a way that I don't feel reflects reality. I guess that's on me. I enjoy the community, lurk more than post, and enjoy the fact that there are users with a wide range of experience and knowledge. Still, ultimately, I got into woodworking because I enjoy the entire process (even when it's frustrating). I thought I was creating community conversation, filling out threads for other users looking for information, and generally interacting. Unfortunately, some perceive it as petulant, braggadocios, clueless, etc., and that's not me.


A little about me: I have an engineering mindset. I only do flatwork, I need things to be square and precise, so I am more engineer than an artist. I do a bit of general construction and remodeling. Working with some Finish Carpenters got me into woodworking. I don't plan to ever own a Lathe, and I've started designing everything in CAD so, ultimately, I can produce as much as possible on a CNC, making it perfect. I'm sure that is a different mindset than many other woodworkers. I'm never going to run a large number of BF because I only have the weekends, and I'm primarily interested in custom/one-off solid wood projects.



Some here have the ability to tell one to "Go to hell." in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip; others, not so much. My perception is you are taking personal offense at gruffness or direct responses, and missing the content.


That may be true, but that doesn't make it acceptable, at least to me. If users like Mark and Tom feel that way about me, there's a polite way to have that conversation that's clear and helpful, and there's the way he is approaching it, by assuming the worst about me and then trolling me. They have sized me up categorized me without really knowing much about me other than a few forum posts about equipment. Beyond that the forum rules are pretty straightforward:



It's important to let everyone know that the number one rule here is that you are never unfriendly towards anyone. I have absolutely no patience for those who cannot participate in this community and maintain a civilized and respectful behavior. I only ask that anyone who sees or experiences unfriendly behavior please report the post so we can deal with the problem right away."


Still, I don't see anyone here standing up for my POV, just people like you justifying their statements, so the perception I've created is the reality, and that's on me.


I don't see any further need to continue this conversation, and I'm not sure why this thread hasn't been closed; it has NOTHING to do with a topic about a Dial Indicator.

[Erik Loza]

No dog in this fight but Derek, I would just pay Sam to come out and dial in your machines. He certainly knows how. Or perhaps visit him and have him show you in person on his machine? I would hope that they would put in a little effort on your behalf, considering the amount of money you spent with them. Also, if there is any aspect of working on Euro machines that is outside your scope of experience, I would pay him for a 1:1 class. Sam did these classes on a regular basis during our Minimax USA days. Both Minimax and Felder owners attended. Whatever the cost, it's small investment in the total ownership experience. To the rest of the crowd, where is this bullying coming from?

Erik

[Tom M King]

I bought this micrometer a few years before there was an internet, so had to ask someone who knew. I was building a house next door to a house being built by the machinist that left me all his tools. We became friends with much mutual respect, but that's another story. He worked for NASA during the Apollo program, and has stuff sitting on the Moon that he not only welded, but figured out how to weld. After he left that, he spent another career teaching Welding, and Machine work.

I told him that I wanted something to measure shavings with. He pointed me to this one, and said that Mitutoyo was a "cheap Japanese brand", but they made pretty serviceable stuff. Since then, I've seen Mitutoyo become a much more prestigious brand. I think that was in 1991, but might have been a few years later than that-don't remember exactly.

Anyway, this cheap Japanese micrometer is still working fine.

[derek labian]

I bought this micrometer a few years before there was an internet, so had to ask someone who knew. I was building a house next door to a house being built by the machinist that left me all his tools. We became friends with much mutual respect, but that's another story. He worked for NASA during the Apollo program, and has stuff sitting on the Moon that he not only welded, but figured out how to weld. After he left that, he spent another career teaching Welding, and Machine work.

I told him that I wanted something to measure shavings with. He pointed me to this one, and said that Mitutoyo was a "cheap Japanese brand", but they made pretty serviceable stuff. Since then, I've seen Mitutoyo become a much more prestigious brand. I think that was in 1991, but might have been a few years later than that-don't remember exactly.

Anyway, this cheap Japanese micrometer is still working fine.

I think 31+ years is the kind of usage everyone wants to get out of a tool when they buy it.

[Charles Coolidge]

He pointed me to this one, and said that Mitutoyo was a "cheap Japanese brand", but they made pretty serviceable stuff. Since then, I've seen Mitutoyo become a much more prestigious brand.

Mitutoyo is top notch. Some iconic US brands have gone backwards, some of the Starrett stuff is out of CHINA now. For rules and straight edges though I'm a Starrett fan. Look at CNC lathes and mills, Japanese Mori Seiki, Mazak, Okuma to name 3, what US brand competes with them, none.

[Brian Holcombe]

Old Mitutoyo stuff is also very well made, I think there was a misconception that they were a cheap brand simply because they were more cost effective.

[Tom M King]

I think it was just a difference in the way they were perceived three decades ago, and I expect were a lot cheaper than the made in the USA stuff then. A lot of Japanese cars were still small, and cheap. The influx of cheap knockoffs from China hadn't even gotten going good then. All Chuck's stuff was Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, and even some Mauser stuff from WWII.

[Lee Schierer]

Gentlemen, not everyone has a PHD in every aspect of measurement and woodworking. We all started out at some point as novices. We owe it to the new novices and those with less experience than ourselves to be tolerant and patient with mundane questions. Let's all play nice.:)

[Charles Coolidge]

[QUOTE=Lee Schierer;3170089]We all started out at some point as novices.

My very first table saw 38 years ago, Craftsman. I couldn't get it to cut straight for the life of me and was about to have a meltdown. Wait for it...then discovered my Craftsman carpenter's square I used to setup the table saw wasn't actually square. (face palm)

[Andrew Seemann]

I have some Starrett, B&S, and Mitutoyo stuff, and for as much as I like it, I don't think it is necessary for woodworking or even hobby machining. I still use the no-name made in China dial indicator and base that I bought 20 odd years ago for machine set up and on my tenon jig. It performs perfectly adequately.

Most of the advantages of the "better" stuff is that it is more durable in use, which is important in a production environment where things get used multiple times an hour (like checking the thickness of sheet metal samples from a rolling mill), but not so much in a woodshop where they get used maybe every few months (or even up to a few times a day).

Even the in the research lab machine shop I worked in 30 years ago, though we had nice Starrett and Brown & Sharpe calipers and indicators, we normally kept them locked up and used cheap-China-brand ones in our actual daily work. The reason was that the Chinese ones were good enough, and they hit the floor at the exact same speed as the Starretts when the engineering students dropped them or knocked them off the bench. The difference was that they cost a fifth of the price to replace.

I'm actually in the market for a digital dial indicator right now. I want to attach it to my new tenoning jig and do relative measurements without math. I probably will get a cheap one from Grizzly rather than a Mitutoyu. It is plenty adequate and significantly cheaper. Could I afford the Mitutoyo, yes, but I have better uses for that money:)

The one exception I would say is combo square measuring blades and rules. I find the engraved Starretts much easier to see than the less expensive photo etched other brands. Even though they are much more expensive, my aging eyes can see the Starretts. Definitely worth the extra cash to me:)

[Andrew Seemann]

Old Mitutoyo stuff is also very well made, I think there was a misconception that they were a cheap brand simply because they were more cost effective.

I remember going into Tool Crib 30 years ago to buy a Starrett digital caliper, and walking out with a Mitutoyo. They were roughly the same price, the Starrett was maybe 10% more, but the Mitutoyo was sooo much more ergonomic and friendlier to use. Buying a Japanese caliper was quite a blow to a Buy-American guy like me at the time, but I was also the guy that had to use it on a daily basis:)

[Leigh Betsch]

Of course everyone really knows that Interapid is where it’s at

[Ronald Blue]

I still have a Mitutoyo dial caliper I bought in 1976 and they still work well. They were still relatively new at that time in the US but gaining popularity. My micrometers were Brown and Sharpe "slant line" which I still find easier to read. I had a Starrett "Last Word" dial test indicator. The indicators work supplied were Brown and Sharp test indicators. Almost all the indicators used in gauging on the production floor were Fowlers as I recall. There are many options and most are more than good enough to dial in a woodworking machine. The major difference between most cheap indicators and the better quality ones is the smoothness in the operation. The plunger glides smoothly in and out versus feeling "scratchy and rough".

[Jim Barstow]

I use to go to woodworking galleries (I live near the Krenov school in Mendocino county) and look at the beautiful, precise work and wish I were that good. To broaden my skills, I took a machinist course and learned how to work to a tolerance of 0.001”. I then applied that knowledge to woodworking and it really upped my quality. I now have 2 calipers (one dial, one digital) on my bench at all times. I don’t work to 0.001” with wood but I’m a lot more accurate than just measuring with a rule. I like the dial caliper because my eye is much better at determining “close enough”.

[John K Jordan]

... I like the dial caliper because my eye is much better at determining “close enough”.

You hit on the reason I prefer dial calipers for most work in the shop.
I keep five, two inch, two metric, and one combo. The reason I have two of some is so there is always one in the caliper drawer even if I've set the other down somewhere. And the batteries are never dead.

This is my favorite for wood:

472136

I rarely use my digital calipers any more unless when machining.

JKJ

[Charles Coolidge]

Great, this thread triggered a $1,250 measuring tool shopping spree.

[Bruce Page]

Of course everyone really knows that Interapid is where it’s at

I have to agree, IR is the best machinist grade test indicator made.