Advice on sagging Jointer table (MM FS41ES)

[derek labian]

I have a sagging jointer in-feed table table that is producing concave joints (cup in the middle). This is a new MM FS41ES so this has been happening since production. Since I assumed it was factory adjusted, I thought it was my technic but its clear now its the in-feed table. Just incase anyone is wondering, it was not lifted by the tables.

I tested with a woodpecker strait edge that has .001" deviation per foot. So I would expect the edge to be no more than .002" over the span on the in-feed. I measured .001" gap at the front of the in-feed, and .010" 24" out from the edge. The full length must be further out.

My question is about what to do, I see no instructions in the manual about adjusting a sagging table. Maybe I'm missing it, but I looked twice. I read several old threads, and on other units with split tops, shimming the hinges seems to be the thing to do. I don't honestly feel I should have to do that on a brand new machine.

Sadly, I should have checked this before I started final work before a glue-up.

Any advice is appreciated.

[Kevin Jenness]

It's not clear what you mean by "sagging" or exactly what your test procedure is. I am guessing that you are resting your straightedge on the outfeed table and measuring the gap between it and the infeed with a feeler gauge, and finding that the infeed is lower the farther away you get from the cutterhead.

I'm not familiar with your specific machine so I will just speak in general terms.

Start with checking/adjusting the outfeed table height. The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives. This is a very fine adjustment and a dial indicator is useful here.

For checking the table flatness and alignment, the longer and more accurate your straightedge is, the more reliable the results. If you have a sliding table saw that will produce gap free joints (or a friend with one) you can make a sufficiently accurate wood or plywood straightedge, though it may not stay that way. A straightedge as long as one of your tables is minimal, one as long as the whole machine will be better. A short straightedge can give misleading indications regarding table alignment if the tables themselves have dips or humps.

Check the tables for flatness, along the length, crossways and diagonally. If they are out of the mfr's stated tolerance you may be able to get a replacement. If they are twisted you may be able to correct that by shimming.

Make sure that the outfeed table is parallel to the cutterhead. If not that may be adjusted most easily by shimming the cutterhead.

If the tables are reasonably flat, and you have determined that they are not parallel, then you will probably have to shim under the table supports. Be prepared to spend a few hours to get the tables just so. Don't start messing with this until you have eliminated the other possibilities. You shouldn't have to do this on a new machine, but the experience seems to be common. Just take your time and use a reliable straightedge.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mine was definitely setup for a spring joint from the factory, but not to the same degree you are showing if you trust that extruded aluminum straight edge.

Regardless, I would start with the basics and get the outfeed table setup first and then see how far off the infeed table is.

One of the more annoying aspects of these machines is that one side needs to be shimmed and the other side has bolts. It’s nice if they got it close enough that you can simply adjust the bolts but occasionally I’ve had to shim these machines.

[Charles Coolidge]

Likely you have a sagging table BUT you are also trying to use a $66 dollar aluminum straight edge to adjust a ground precision machine tool. And the advertised .001 per foot deviation is no guarantee that it is. A few years back I purchased a ground steel iGaging 36" precision straight edge for a similar price. Also advertised as .001 per foot. That hunk of scrap metal was warped in 2 directions, it had to be .020 or more out over it's length.

Needing a precision straight edge for a job recently I finally bit the bullet, Starrett 48" 380-48 precision straight edge. Accurate to .0002" per foot or .0008 over it's entire 48 inch length. It's also .218 inch thick and 2.4 inches wide and is quite heavy. Yes $300+ but now that's a straight edge. I have a new jointer in a crate out in the shop to setup, that's it's next job.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Get a copy of John White's book "Care and Repair of Shop Machines." He shows how to adjust machines, and how to make a straight edge using only some MDF and drywall screws.

[derek labian]

Likely you have a sagging table BUT you are also trying to use a $66 dollar aluminum straight edge to adjust a ground precision machine tool. And the advertised .001 per foot deviation is no guarantee that it is. A few years back I purchased a ground steel iGaging 36" precision straight edge for a similar price. Also advertised as .001 per foot. That hunk of scrap metal was warped in 2 directions, it had to be .020 or more out over it's length.

Needing a precision straight edge for a job recently I finally bit the bullet, Starrett 48" 380-48 precision straight edge. Accurate to .0002" per foot or .0008 over it's entire 48 inch length. It's also .218 inch thick and 2.4 inches wide and is quite heavy. Yes $300+ but now that's a straight edge. I have a new jointer in a crate out in the shop to setup, that's it's next job.

I'm aware there are better strait edges. THIS strait edge is perfectly flat on both the infeed and outfeed table so I think its safe to assume the strait edge is strait enough that its not the culprit of a .010 deviation.

[derek labian]

It's not clear what you mean by "sagging" or exactly what your test procedure is. I am guessing that you are resting your straightedge on the outfeed table and measuring the gap between it and the infeed with a feeler gauge, and finding that the infeed is lower the farther away you get from the cutterhead.

I'm not familiar with your specific machine so I will just speak in general terms.

Start with checking/adjusting the outfeed table height. The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives. This is a very fine adjustment and a dial indicator is useful here.

For checking the table flatness and alignment, the longer and more accurate your straightedge is, the more reliable the results. If you have a sliding table saw that will produce gap free joints (or a friend with one) you can make a sufficiently accurate wood or plywood straightedge, though it may not stay that way. A straightedge as long as one of your tables is minimal, one as long as the whole machine will be better. A short straightedge can give misleading indications regarding table alignment if the tables themselves have dips or humps.

Check the tables for flatness, along the length, crossways and diagonally. If they are out of the mfr's stated tolerance you may be able to get a replacement. If they are twisted you may be able to correct that by shimming.

Make sure that the outfeed table is parallel to the cutterhead. If not that may be adjusted most easily by shimming the cutterhead.

If the tables are reasonably flat, and you have determined that they are not parallel, then you will probably have to shim under the table supports. Be prepared to spend a few hours to get the tables just so. Don't start messing with this until you have eliminated the other possibilities. You shouldn't have to do this on a new machine, but the experience seems to be common. Just take your time and use a reliable straightedge.

I thought I was being clear, but sometimes its hard to read what your writing and set aside your inherit understanding of the situation.

Yes, I'm putting 1' of strait edge on the outfeed table, and cantilevering over the infeed. I tested in several positions and adjusted the infeed several times. What I posted is just the last test. In all cases there was a drop. The tables are flat. I do not have a longer strait edge on hand, but as its .010 off at 24" I don't see how that will make any difference.

"The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives."

The only thing the manual states about the infeed/outfeed is that the outfeed table is set by the factory precisely and should not be adjusted. It appears to be set at level not higher. At second measurement its probably somewhere perfectly above the outfeed, by maybe .001.

[derek labian]

Get a copy of John White's book "Care and Repair of Shop Machines." He shows how to adjust machines, and how to make a straight edge using only some MDF and drywall screws.

My strait edge is fine, thats not the issue I'm trying to resolve with this thread. I'm looking for information SPECIFIC to the FS41ES and the sagging infeed adjustment.

[derek labian]

Mine was definitely setup for a spring joint from the factory, but not to the same degree you are showing if you trust that extruded aluminum straight edge.

Regardless, I would start with the basics and get the outfeed table setup first and then see how far off the infeed table is.

One of the more annoying aspects of these machines is that one side needs to be shimmed and the other side has bolts. It’s nice if they got it close enough that you can simply adjust the bolts but occasionally I’ve had to shim these machines.

Just to make sure I understand you accurately, your FS41ES was factory set to produce a concave cut?

The manual says nothing about adjusting infeed table, but does say, in bold letters, the outfeed is factory set and should not be adjusted.

How did you go about shimming these? Was there a documented procedure by MM/SCM?

[glenn bradley]

I am OK with the straight edge when we're looking at a tenth of an inch deviation. With a machine at this price point comes superior customer service and my first call (not email) would be to MM customer service. If they conceded that the machine left the factory misaligned (not terribly uncommon for many makers) I would follow their table alignment procedure.

I have had machines show up so well aligned I keep checking them during initial setup to see what I am missing. Those are the good times ;-) I expect to have to align any machine that has made the journey these multi-hundred-pound beasts have to make with the skillful, courteous and thoughtful delivery personnel available today. Give MiniMax a call and go from there.

[Charles Coolidge]

I'm aware there are better strait edges. THIS strait edge is perfectly flat on both the infeed and outfeed table so I think its safe to assume the strait edge is strait enough that its not the culprit of a .010 deviation.

Okay you are trying to hold 12 inches flat on the outfeed to check 24 inches on the infeed. How long are your jointer tables? Just saying. Hope you get this sorted, been there done that jointers are my most hated machine.

[derek labian]

I am OK with the straight edge when we're looking at a tenth of an inch deviation. With a machine at this price point comes superior customer service and my first call (not email) would be to MM customer service. If they conceded that the machine left the factory misaligned (not terribly uncommon for many makers) I would follow their table alignment procedure.

I have had machines show up so well aligned I keep checking them during initial setup to see what I am missing. Those are the good times ;-) I expect to have to align any machine that has made the journey these multi-hundred-pound beasts have to make with the skillful, courteous and thoughtful delivery personnel available today. Give MiniMax a call and go from there.

"price point comes superior customer service"

I wish that were the case but it appears not to be. I guess it depends on what your definition of superior is but I'm still waiting for information on a damaged bell housing and missing parts, and its been a month.

"I would follow their table alignment procedure."

So would I, If I could find any information on it. I was hoping someone, like Brian, would have specific experience or alignment procedure (for this model) they could share
.

[derek labian]

Okay you are trying to hold 12 inches flat on the outfeed to check 24 inches on the infeed.

Right. For reference, I was following the procedure indicated by Marc Spagnola's video. It seemed like a reasonable procedure and I think the test results are inline. I was actually already looking at the Starrett 72" strait edge (https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/380-72) but that isn't going to help me today and I have a time sensitive project.


https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/jointer-setup/


How long are your jointer tables? Just saying. Hope you get this sorted, been there done that jointers are my most hated machine.

42"

[Jeff Roltgen]

Agree with Glenn. A quick call to minimax/SCM. They'll call back and spend as much time as necessary to help you set things straight.
As for factory alignment, just set up a new MM sliding table saw last week. They said alignment of wagon toe registration pins was pre-set at factory. Not remotely close. Plus, sled was sitting at least .057" above iron table, when .007 is recommended. Even the switch plate had been installed with wires pinched between gasket and housing, creating a bulging control panel that initially was blamed on shipping. Finally, had 3 threaded inserts in various covers that did not crimp well, result being they spun along with the screw. Two of which had locked up screws that needed to be cut off before I could open things up to get the machine in service.
Not knocking the manufacturer, just letting you know, during these times, it's all anyone can do to produce a product. All the niceties of pre-aligned machines and tight tolerances are currently out the window, so your experience is quite normal. I know you weren't complaining, just looking for help, but lurkers anticipating new machines should understand that they too, will need to play machinist a bit when the new toy arrives, regardless the premium paid.

[Andrew Hughes]

Derek I would like to suggest don’t not mess with the tables unless you get a longer straight edge 72 inches minimum.
precision if you can afford it. My straight edge start a 12 inches up to 5 ft. All precision.
I also have Veritas aluminum and steel they are ok but to get the last 3 or 4 thousands tuned on of long jointer tables precision steel.
The wood peckers is good looking for dips and humps.
I use suburban tools for my precision stuff. Starrett has gone over seas with some of their stuff I don’t like it.
Good Luck

[Charles Coolidge]

Right. For reference, I was following the procedure indicated by Marc Spagnola's video. It seemed like a reasonable procedure and I think the test results are inline. I was actually already looking at the Starrett 72" strait edge (https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/380-72) but that isn't going to help me today and I have a time sensitive project.


https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/jointer-setup/



42"


You Don't by chance have a Starrett No 199 precision machinist level on hand do you? That's accurate enough to level the outfeed then throw the level on the infeed to check for variance vs the outfeed. Just throwing out an idea.

[derek labian]

Start with checking/adjusting the outfeed table height. The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives. This is a very fine adjustment and a dial indicator is useful here.

I checked this several more times with a couple of tools, the outfeed table is setup correctly.

[derek labian]

Agree with Glenn. A quick call to minimax/SCM. They'll call back and spend as much time as necessary to help you set things straight.
As for factory alignment, just set up a new MM sliding table saw last week. They said alignment of wagon toe registration pins was pre-set at factory. Not remotely close. Plus, sled was sitting at least .057" above iron table, when .007 is recommended. Even the switch plate had been installed with wires pinched between gasket and housing, creating a bulging control panel that initially was blamed on shipping. Finally, had 3 threaded inserts in various covers that did not crimp well, result being they spun along with the screw. Two of which had locked up screws that needed to be cut off before I could open things up to get the machine in service.
Not knocking the manufacturer, just letting you know, during these times, it's all anyone can do to produce a product. All the niceties of pre-aligned machines and tight tolerances are currently out the window, so your experience is quite normal. I know you weren't complaining, just looking for help, but lurkers anticipating new machines should understand that they too, will need to play machinist a bit when the new toy arrives, regardless the premium paid.

Thank you, good information.

[derek labian]

Derek I would like to suggest don’t not mess with the tables unless you get a longer straight edge 72 inches minimum.
precision if you can afford it. My straight edge start a 12 inches up to 5 ft. All precision.
I also have Veritas aluminum and steel they are ok but to get the last 3 or 4 thousands tuned on of long jointer tables precision steel.
The wood peckers is good looking for dips and humps.
I use suburban tools for my precision stuff. Starrett has gone over seas with some of their stuff I don’t like it.
Good Luck

I wasn't looking to "adjust" anything, I just have been unable to get a strait edge, wood to wood, so I started investigating. As the strait edge is perfectly flat on the infeed and outfeed tables, as much as I can measure .001, I don't think its reasonable to think this is a problem with that strait edge. A longer strait edge would be better but it won't correct the issue I'm seeing. I'll check out Suburban Tools, I also read some people owners posting about Starrett quality issues.

[derek labian]

You Don't by chance have a Starrett No 199 precision machinist level on hand do you? That's accurate enough to level the outfeed then throw the level on the infeed to check for variance vs the outfeed. Just throwing out an idea.

No but I have a Lamb tools precision level. https://lambtoolworks.com/level

With that tool, as short as it is, I'm seeing a very small drop over about 6". Probably less than .0005.

I see your point though, it would be easier to see a sag in the infeed if I had a 72" strait edge.

[Brian Holcombe]

I don’t have a documented procedure, don’t need it personally. Remove or add shims as needed.

Doing this with a straight edge is not normally how I do it. Instead, after verifying that the tables are flat I will use a machinist level to adjust the tables.

Step one is to get the outfeed table parallel to the head at the lip and at the far end of the outfeed. Then make the infeed coplanar to the outfeed and build in the amount of concavity you prefer in your joints. I like a little bit of concavity.

[derek labian]

I don’t have a documented procedure, don’t need it personally. Remove or add shims as needed.

Doing this with a straight edge is not normally how I do it. Instead, after verifying that the tables are flat I will use a machinist level to adjust the tables.

Step one is to get the outfeed table parallel to the head at the lip and at the far end of the outfeed. Then make the infeed coplanar to the outfeed and build in the amount of concavity you prefer in your joints. I like a little bit of concavity.

I think I'd have to go to SCM support to get more information before I just start unbolting anything. I would almost certainly end up with something worse :P

Your machinist level is probably pretty short though right? Any reason you use that over a strait edge? I purchased the Lamb Tools level for the purpose but if you have a sag in the infeed side, wouldn't it be difficult to see it on a short level? Maybe you have a longer level?

[Warren Lake]

never had to do it on any machine till an issue with material years back. Did the set up 72" precision ground straightedge. As you shim the tables you see how the shims change measure in my case at four points. Got it very accurate and still had the same problems. Quarter sawn Sapele that was the issue and not the machine. Still good exercise to have set the machine up. got it to .0005. On an old machine there will be some wear areas.

No one can tell what your technique is. I use a dial for knife projection on set ups but have never checked the knives to outfeed with the dial. check it with two boards on edge to know if you need rear table up or down. drop it till it snipes and work your way back up. No tools needed for that, that is provided technique is okay.

471778

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes, which is why I verify table flatness first. I have a 42” long hand scraped cast iron box section tube for that, then a couple Mitutoyo levels.

The level is going to show the effect which you are calling sag, sag is not what you are calling sag. I’m going to be persnickety, but for good purpose. Sag would better describe a section of the table that used dipped below the majority of the table, might also describe a table with a section that dips progressively as it is out of flat.

You’re describing your tabled as such but more likely they are simply out of plane and need to be adjusted into co-planar or nearly co-planar. This is easier to resolve than sagging which would not be resolvable with adjustment.

[derek labian]

Yes, which is why I verify table flatness first. I have a 42” long hand scraped cast iron box section tube for that, then a couple Mitutoyo levels.

The level is going to show the effect which you are calling sag, sag is not what you are calling sag. I’m going to be persnickety, but for good purpose. Sag would better describe a section of the table that used dipped below the majority of the table, might also describe a table with a section that dips progressively as it is out of flat.

You’re describing your tabled as such but more likely they are simply out of plane and need to be adjusted into co-planar or nearly co-planar. This is easier to resolve than sagging which would not be resolvable with adjustment.

You are correct, I am describing the infeed/outfeed not being co-planer.

I ordered a 72" Starrett strait edge as suggested which should help. I also did some test cuts on pine instead of my project material, white oak. I was able to get perfectly jointed wood with the pine, both face and edge jointing. I recently switched to applying pressure to the outfeed table only after passing the knifes as I've seen recommended in a number of technique videos. When I tried this with the pine, I ended up with a bow in the wood I couldnt joint away, it just got worse. When I switched to an equal pressure technique I got perfectly flat wood. I also saw some videos that said only apply pressure to the infeed table.

Perhaps my strait edge is just off enough because I'm registering such a small portion of the outfeed that I was getting those results. No way to tell.

I'll wait for the 72" strait edge to come in, and try to run some more tests. If I can get a strait piece of pine though, 3' and less than .001 deviation, WOULD that seem to that things are co-planer? In other worse, if things were out of plane, would I still be able to get that short piece of pine flat on one face?

[Kevin Jenness]

The only thing the manual states about the infeed/outfeed is that the outfeed table is set by the factory precisely and should not be adjusted.

I checked this several more times with a couple of tools, the outfeed table is setup correctly.

I think you can safely disregard the manual as to the first statement- you already know that something is off.

The relationship between the cutters and the outfeed table is best adjusted by results as Warren said. A pair of 1x4s as long as the outfeed table will show what is going on. You should be able to press on the outfeed table only once the initial flat surface is made. Still, if you can get consistently good joints using your "equal pressure technique", don't fix what is working.

A very minor change (<.001") can make the difference between good and poor results. Given the apparent droop in the infeed table it may not fix the problem, but it is definitely the simplest adjustment to try and the place to start. On my jointer I use the "carry" adjustment method - rotating the cutterhead will pick up and carry a straightedge overhanging the outfeed table 1-2mm when adjusted properly, and the outfeed is less than .001" below the cutting circle.

Your straightedge is probably fine for what it is, but you will find it much easier to accomplish what you are trying to do with a longer one, especially if you start shimming the tables. As Brian said, a precision level will do the job if​ the tables are flat - if not all bets are off.

You definitely should start with customer service but don't expect miracles. If the tables are not parallel then unless there is a fine adjustment mechanism on the table supports you are going to have to do some precise shimming and alignment. This is where the difference between a combination jointer/thicknesser and a jointer shows up - most jointers in this class are likely to have adjustable 4 point supports for each table.

[Andrew Hughes]

Setting the outfeed table to the cutting circle of the knives is a very critical step for producing straight boards.
Sometime I prefer the out to be a little bit low for facing. It’s much easier to pass the boards over the head esp when everything is super flat and suction starts gets going.
But for making long edges straight I set the outfeed to the top dead center of the cutting circle.
First lower outfeed lower then the infeed. Send a fairly straight long board with the machine one so it’s cuts until 4or5 inches hangs over the outfeed. Raise the outfeed until it barely touches the bottom of the board. This is the dead top of the cutting circle.
Even a infeed that’s slightly out from the outfeed should still produce a straight edge if the knives are set properly with the outfeeds circle. What will mess this up is dull knives or cantankerous wood.
Good Luck Derek

[Erik Loza]

One thing I remember about the Elite-S J/P's is that most of them really needed true re-calibration after final delivery. The cast iron tables are so long on that particular machine that I suspect they shift around quite a bit during transport. If you look at that cast iron tables from the underneath, the ratio of "table hanging out in space" compared to quadrant that the parallelogram rods occupy/can adjust is much more skewed than most machines of similar class. Not necessarily a bad thing but I would expect a full commissioning to be required on a machine with tables that size. Hope you get it sorted out.

Erik

[Charles Coolidge]

Setting the outfeed table to the cutting circle of the knives is a very critical step for producing straight boards.

Speaking of that, this Oneway Multi Gauge (made in Canada) is becoming one of my most frequently used setup tools.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/oneway-multi-gauge

[Andrew Hughes]

Speaking of that, this Oneway Multi Gauge (made in Canada) is becoming one of my most frequently used setup tools.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/oneway-multi-gauge

Yep that’s a nice tool. If I didn’t have one Brian’s indicator holder I’d have a oneway.
Here’s mine with a federal indicator

[Brian Holcombe]

You are correct, I am describing the infeed/outfeed not being co-planer.

I ordered a 72" Starrett strait edge as suggested which should help. I also did some test cuts on pine instead of my project material, white oak. I was able to get perfectly jointed wood with the pine, both face and edge jointing. I recently switched to applying pressure to the outfeed table only after passing the knifes as I've seen recommended in a number of technique videos. When I tried this with the pine, I ended up with a bow in the wood I couldnt joint away, it just got worse. When I switched to an equal pressure technique I got perfectly flat wood. I also saw some videos that said only apply pressure to the infeed table.

Perhaps my strait edge is just off enough because I'm registering such a small portion of the outfeed that I was getting those results. No way to tell.

I'll wait for the 72" strait edge to come in, and try to run some more tests. If I can get a strait piece of pine though, 3' and less than .001 deviation, WOULD that seem to that things are co-planer? In other worse, if things were out of plane, would I still be able to get that short piece of pine flat on one face?

Hopefully they send you a decent one, I ordered one a few years ago and it was curved. The better style of straight edge, at this length is a cast iron camel back that’s been scraped flat or to a lesser degree, precision ground.

These tools start to get really heavy when they start getting over 4-5’, so I prefer to check the table and use level to verify accuracy.

This is a progressive adjustment, so you can take small steps as to avoid any real disaster.

I would bet the bolts came out of adjustment on the ride and you’ll be able to get it dialed back in without much effort.

[Phil Gaudio]

Not familiar with the FS41ES, but I did this same adjustment for and FS41E. If they are similar, there will be two mounting points on the hinge side where shims are used at the factory for the adjustment. As I recall, it involved loosening the two main bolts that hold the hinge assembly in place. Once these are loose: you can add/subtract shims as needed to get things in line. But, its important, as everyone else has said, that before you start adjusting things, you are confident in the veracity of the straight edge (I broke down and bought the 72" Starrett) and your ability to use it. This straight edge will sag under its own weight so it has to be supported at the support points indicated on the side of the straight edge. When I was doing the adjustment, I did a map of the entire infeed: and took measurements maybe every 8" of infeed length along 3 different lines of travel: near back, near front, and in middle. I made these measurements a number of times until I had a good sense of what was going on. Once you are confident that you know exactly what is wrong, only then would I loosen those bolts and start adjusting. Once you make an adjustment, there is no going back, so to speak. I am not aware of any instructions to make this adjustment: when you spend this kind of $$$ I think the manufacturer assumes that you have a full time machinist on staff to handle these issues: the travails of the hobbyist woodworker.

[derek labian]

Speaking of that, this Oneway Multi Gauge (made in Canada) is becoming one of my most frequently used setup tools.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/oneway-multi-gauge

Thanks Charles. I have a dial indicator, I just need to buy a different base.

[derek labian]

One thing I remember about the Elite-S J/P's is that most of them really needed true re-calibration after final delivery. The cast iron tables are so long on that particular machine that I suspect they shift around quite a bit during transport. If you look at that cast iron tables from the underneath, the ratio of "table hanging out in space" compared to quadrant that the parallelogram rods occupy/can adjust is much more skewed than most machines of similar class. Not necessarily a bad thing but I would expect a full commissioning to be required on a machine with tables that size. Hope you get it sorted out.

Erik

Thanks for the tip. I took a look and your right, the rods are 12"~ apart, so not very far. I'm going to wait for that better+longer strait edge before I change anything.

[Charles Coolidge]

Thanks Charles. I have a dial indicator, I just need to buy a different base.

Perfect, because the multi gauge comes with a CHINA indicator. I throw my Mitutoyo indicator on there when it matters. Though the CHINA indicator has a nice wide flat tip that's useful, the threads are the same as my Mitutoyo so I can swap it over.

[derek labian]

Hopefully they send you a decent one, I ordered one a few years ago and it was curved. The better style of straight edge, at this length is a cast iron camel back that’s been scraped flat or to a lesser degree, precision ground. These tools start to get really heavy when they start getting over 4-5’, so I prefer to check the table and use level to verify accuracy.

Thats why I originally didn't buy a Starrett strait edge, I had read the quality went down, people weren't getting strait edges. The problem though is, if I get it, and its my reference, how will I know if its not strait :P I'd have to buy two, and put them back to back to see if they are perfect. What do you mean "use a level" to verify accuracy?


This is a progressive adjustment, so you can take small steps as to avoid any real disaster.

I would bet the bolts came out of adjustment on the ride and you’ll be able to get it dialed back in without much effort.

Thats what Erik was saying as well. I guess I'll see when I get the strait edge.

[Charles Coolidge]

Thats why I originally didn't buy a Starrett strait edge, I had read the quality went down

I have never had a quality issue with USA made Starrett rules but yeah at 72 inches things could get dicey. First thing I did when the 48 inch arrived was slide my satin chrome 24" Starrett rule down it's length, looks dead on flat.

[Kevin Jenness]

One thing I remember about the Elite-S J/P's is that most of them really needed true re-calibration after final delivery. The cast iron tables are so long on that particular machine that I suspect they shift around quite a bit during transport. If you look at that cast iron tables from the underneath, the ratio of "table hanging out in space" compared to quadrant that the parallelogram rods occupy/can adjust is much more skewed than most machines of similar class. Not necessarily a bad thing but I would expect a full commissioning to be required on a machine with tables that size. Hope you get it sorted out.

Erik

From an old thread on customer service https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235588-What-is-your-experience-with-quot-euro-machine-quot-customer-service
https://sawmillcreek.org/image.php?u=89866&dateline=1361027524 (https://sawmillcreek.org/member.php?89866-Erik-Loza)Erik Loza (https://sawmillcreek.org/member.php?89866-Erik-Loza)
https://sawmillcreek.org/images/statusicon/user-offline.pngFelder Rep



Join DateApr 2012LocationAustin, TXPosts3,762



Alan, I've worked for two of the players you mentioned and will give you my thoughts.

First, you need to clarify which machines we are talking about. Any Martin, machine, for example, will automatically include a tech to set it up. You can't set up one of those yourself. This would be the case for any machine, regardless of brand, that has electronics. You would not have to deal with most of your concerns because part of the price you pay will include dealer install, service, and support. Now, regarding Minimax (and some SCM) as well as some of those other brands, the price you pay generally DOES NOT include setup or install, unless you specifically pay for that service. For example, most owners will never need a tech to set up or even to service a bandsaw. It's a simple machine that does not warrant that level of mfr. support. Here are how I personally handle the specific issues you are asking about:

1.) "The problem is so bad that the machine needs to be replaced". This is very rare but does happen and is almost always the result of freight damage. Minor freight damage, ordinarily I will direct SCM's parts department to ship out the needed parts and the customer can just re-fit them, himself. The only time I would replace an entire machine is if the damage was catastrophic or if there were some issue that just made more sense from a monetary perspective, to have the customer put the machine back on the pallet and have me ship him a new one. But that is very rare.

2.) The problem is something that can be "fixed" over the phone by talking to a technician and learning what to do. This is the most common scenario and that is exactly what how I handle it. In the vast majority of cases, this is all that is needed. It is assumed that the owner will have a willingness to roll his sleeves up and help solve the issue.

3.) The problem needs an onsite visit from a factory trained technician. Again, very rare. The more complicated the machine, the higher the chance and it almost always is the electronics.

The labor rate you mentioned for travel is fair and is normal in the industry. I will be the first to say that the one area any of the mfrs. could benefit from is more tech support staff. That is an industry-wide situation. You can never have enough techs or service guys.

The best advice I can give you (or anyone) who is buying Euro machinery is that you need to be willing to do some work on your end and be prepared to act outside your comfort zone. Be that wrangling machines from the curbside to your shop, troubleshooting electrics yourself, being persistent on the phone with tech support, or perhaps paying to have the tech handle it all for you. This is industrial machinery, not shoes from Zappos. Once that truck shows up, it's yours. The only customers customers I've ever had that were totally dissatisfied (and there aren't many) were ones who, the moment something went askew of their plans, took the approach of, "I paid THIS much, so shouldn't have to lift a finger", or started issuing threats and ultimatums right off the bat. That's setting yourself up for unhappiness. In other words, you will need to be involved at possibly a number of different levels if an issue does come up.

This is blunt talk but I hope it helps. Best of luck with your research.

Erik

Derek, I'm just curious if commissioning was recommended when you ordered this machine. It sounds as though you expected it to be plug and play. I assume that anything short of a Martin is going to be a kit and have no qualms about making adjustments, but I have been tweaking used machinery for some time. It seems as though anyone buying a new machine like this should budget for either having a tech set it up or taking the time and having the equipment to do it themself.

[derek labian]

Derek, I'm just curious if commissioning was recommended when you ordered this machine. It sounds as though you expected it to be plug and play. I assume that anything short of a Martin is going to be a kit and have no qualms about making adjustments, but I have been tweaking used machinery for some time. It seems as though anyone buying a new machine like this should budget for either having a tech set it up or taking the time and having the equipment to do it themself.


Commissioning was not discussed that I can remember. I did expect it to come in perfect order; if my Grizzly equipment came and needed little to no adjustment, I assumed this would be the same. Since I don't depend on this for income, its not a big deal to wait, I was just mid-project when I realized I wasn't getting strait wood. If it was an income thing, it could be more problematic.

I don't have any issue making adjustments, I am just surprised there's nothing in the manual about making those adjustments. To be fair, there is info about the cutter head, just not about the tables. My general lack of experience compounds the issue, more experienced woodworkers would probably be equipped to deal with any issuer better. In any event, I'm sure this too shall pass and get resolved. I can see the value in manufacturer setup though.

[Erik Loza]

I think there are two different conversations going on here. One is telling someone how to adjust a jointer outfeed table and the other is specific to the OP's machine. In my opinion, the focus should be on the second question. I don't sense that the OP is not understanding how make these adjustments. The OP's machine, due to its particular design, really needs an experienced tech to set it up. Other MM J/P's, like Phil's, have a more simple design. As Kevin mentioned, it's going to be a LOT of creeping up on and then re-checking.

Derek, could you pay Sam to come out and dial it in for you? He (as you probably know) has that exact machine in his CU410 and is not far from you. Again, I hope you get it sorted out.

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=derek labian;3168927]I thought I was being clear, but sometimes its hard to read what your writing and set aside your inherit understanding of the situation.



"The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives."

Didn’t see source of above quote, but I don’t think it’s good. The knives have to be right. The outfeed usually has to be adjusted a number
of times before the knives changed out. Even a real-small nick can make for trouble . When facing wide stuff, that nick is going to make the work “climb” ,so you have to lower outfeed . And on same project you might have to raise outfeed to make “sprung” joints. I’ve worked
a couple places where a good designer would come out of his air conditioning to joint the edge of a piece of plywood for a bird house !
Guys who are smart in one type of work ….are dumb-bells in a bunch of other stuff.
Well now I see the source, and he is a smart guy. Good writers need editors….but Keith won’t buy us any !!! The nature of forums
is constant examination. And…to our credit no one has been stabbed in this one !

[derek labian]

I think there are two different conversations going on here. One is telling someone how to adjust a jointer outfeed table and the other is specific to the OP's machine. In my opinion, the focus should be on the second question.

Right


Derek, could you pay Sam to come out and dial it in for you? He (as you probably know) has that exact machine in his CU410 and is not far from you. Again, I hope you get it sorted out.

Maybe. Since some fair points were raised about the accuracy of my test, I'm going to at least get that 72" Starrett and see what I can see. Good idea though.

[derek labian]

[QUOTE=derek labian;3168927]I thought I was being clear, but sometimes its hard to read what your writing and set aside your inherit understanding of the situation.



"The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives."

Didn’t see source of above quote, but I don’t think it’s good. The knives have to be right. The outfeed usually has to be adjusted a number
of times before the knives changed out. Even a real-small nick can make for trouble . When facing wide stuff, that nick is going to make the work “climb” ,so you have to lower outfeed . And on same project you might have to raise outfeed to make “sprung” joints. I’ve worked
a couple places where a good designer would come out of his air conditioning to joint the edge of a piece of plywood for a bird house !
Guys who are smart in one type of work ….are dumb-bells in a bunch of other stuff.

Just for reference, its a spiral head not strait knives.

From everything I've read, the knives should be at the exact same height as the outfeed table. If its a bit over, thats ok too (.003), if its a bit under (.001) its a problem. As far as I can tell its at level. I've ordered Brian's indicator holder so I can better test.

Its also possible, as Erik suggested, there are multiple things that need to be tweaked. I probably need to see how accurate the planer bed digital readout is now too.

[Mel Fulks]

I’ve never used a spiral jointer. Too high outfeed makes the work climb ,that is ….take off more wood at start than other end.

On long pieces it all has to be right.

[Erik Loza]

Derek, is your shop climate controlled at this point? There's a particular reason I'm asking this question.

Erik

[derek labian]

Derek, is your shop climate controlled at this point? There's a particular reason I'm asking this question.

Erik

Yeah, I installed HVAC and a commercial dehumidifier. It's nicer in there then it is in my house :D

[John TenEyck]

I have an FS31, about 30 years old. I could joint perfectly straight and flat edges; it seems ridiculous that the factory would set up a jointer to cut spring joints, thankfully mine was nut. But then one day I was cutting spring joints and not by desire, they were just coming out that way no matter what I did technique wise. What the heck? So with my less than perfect straight edge I found that the infeed table was sagging at least 0.005" at the inlet. I first verified the knives were parallel with the outfeed table and about 0.002" above. So the infeed table needed to be shimmed. The cuts told me so and the straight edge confirmed it.

I had removed the tables to get the J/P down into my basement shop when I bought it 5 years ago. Removing the hinge bolts was not easy. Warning. I was afraid I was going to snap them when I did it but, fortunately, none broke. Anyway, there were no shims under the hinges, so I knew that I had to add one or more now. I ended up adding a 0.004 shim under the first hinge bolt, the one closest to the beginning of the infeed table, in order for the straightedge to look flat across both tables. Happily, that was it, and I was back to cutting straight, flat edges again.

Nice tools are nice, but modest ones will do if you let the results guide you. Woodworking machines for the most part are pretty simple devices. Good luck.

John

[derek labian]

I have an FS31, about 30 years old. I could joint perfectly straight and flat edges; it seems ridiculous that the factory would set up a jointer to cut spring joints, thankfully mine was nut. But then one day I was cutting spring joints and not by desire, they were just coming out that way no matter what I did technique wise. What the heck? So with my less than perfect straight edge I found that the infeed table was sagging at least 0.005" at the inlet. I first verified the knives were parallel with the outfeed table and about 0.002" above. So the infeed table needed to be shimmed. The cuts told me so and the straight edge confirmed it.

I had removed the tables to get the J/P down into my basement shop when I bought it 5 years ago. Removing the hinge bolts was not easy. Warning. I was afraid I was going to snap them when I did it but, fortunately, none broke. Anyway, there were no shims under the hinges, so I knew that I had to add one or more now. I ended up adding a 0.004 shim under the first hinge bolt, the one closest to the beginning of the infeed table, in order for the straightedge to look flat across both tables. Happily, that was it, and I was back to cutting straight, flat edges again.

Nice tools are nice, but modest ones will do if you let the results guide you. Woodworking machines for the most part are pretty simple devices. Good luck.

John

Hi Jon,

I think you posted about this in another thread right? You said the bolts had some perma-never-move stuff like red Loctite? I'm just hoping it requires as little adjustment as possible. It will take a solid week before I can take more accurate measurements to see the actual situation.

[Erik Loza]

Yeah, I installed HVAC and a commercial dehumidifier. It's nicer in there then it is in my house :D

That's good and will help. Reason I asked is that "if" in non-climate controlled shop, there is so much unsupported cast iron hanging out past the parallelograms that I could envision a tech calibrating the machine one day, then the table moving around on the next hot or cold day. I've seen this with nesting routers that use aluminum rather than phenolic tables.

Erik

[John TenEyck]

Hi Jon,

I think you posted about this in another thread right? You said the bolts had some perma-never-move stuff like red Loctite? I'm just hoping it requires as little adjustment as possible. It will take a solid week before I can take more accurate measurements to see the actual situation.

Good memory Derek; yes, I did post about that some time ago. It was more like green epoxy but, no matter, they were pretty hard bonded in the holes. I count myself very lucky that they came out without breaking. I used a hex drive in a 1/2" socket wrench and leaned on it hard to avoid stripping out the socket head. When I reinstalled the bolts I used blue Loctite. When I had to shim the infeed table recently it was a stress-free job to loosen the bolts.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

I used red Loctite once by mistake and was able to weaken the bond with heat. The same goes for most epoxies.

[Mark Hennebury]

Thats why I originally didn't buy a Starrett strait edge, I had read the quality went down, people weren't getting strait edges. The problem though is, if I get it, and its my reference, how will I know if its not strait :P I'd have to buy two, and put them back to back to see if they are perfect. What do you mean "use a level" to verify accuracy?



Thats what Erik was saying as well. I guess I'll see when I get the strait edge.

First thing to do is to understand how to verify flat & straight!

Two reference straightedges back to back wont verify straight!

You need three straightedges to verify.
Use reference surface on straightedge A to check reference surface on Straightedge B & C.
Then check B & C against each other.

Checking B &C against A, will only tell you that they are a complimentary fit.
For instance if A is convex, and B&C are concave they could still show a perfect fit when placed against A, albeit a false positive.
The error will only be seen when you check B against C

You don't need an expensive straight edge. You need to understand the principles.
You can make straightedges out of wood.
Take a three pieces of 1" x 6" x 6' Joint them the best you can then handplane them to a precise fit, and verify they are flat as explained above, then use them to check your jointer table alignment. You should be able to get within a thou or two.

[mreza Salav]

Didn't go through all replies. I have a 14" version and if the tables are totally flat it's only a matter of speding enough time and back and forth to adjust the tables (with shims if needed). Note that each table has a limited amount of adjustments and you can NOT adjust one and be done with it and move on to the other table! You may have to go back and adjust the other table (e.g. outfeed) if needed. Yes, you can start at the outfeed and make that good with the cutter head but depending on where the far edge of the outfeed table is now you may never be able to adjust the infeed enough to get a truely flat surface (e.g. the far end edge of the outfeed table might be too low and you cannot raise the front edge of the infeed to make it in the same line as that edge and cutter head). I have taken apart my machine a few times and put it back together (moving) and it takes a good couple of hours to dial it to perfection each time.

[derek labian]

Hi Mark,


Two reference straightedges back to back wont verify straight!

I thought about this before I made the original post, however, I think you can verify a strait edge is strait with only two strait edges. If they are back to back and perfectly aligned, but not strait, it would have to be complimentary errors in alignment. Since they are complementary, you could simply reverse the direction of one of the two strait edges showing its not strait. Even if they were complimentary in a way that showed them being strait in both directions, you could offset the strait edges. This wouldn't tell you which reference edge is strait, but it would indicate you have a problem.



You don't need an expensive straight edge. You need to understand the principles. You can make straightedges out of wood.

I guess that depends on your application. I thought my $80 Woodpecker strait edge was more than sufficient until multiple people in this thread told me it was not. I don't think its bad to have a steel strait edge that is a universal reference and won't expand and contract (much). I did actually make a strait edge out of the 2x6 I mentioned earlier in this thread. It was actually very handy. It of course won't stay strait, which is why that steel strict edge is nice.

I don't think being perfectly flat is that important in many cases. My SawStop PCS does not have a perfectly flat table, but its not going to impact, in any meaningful way, what I'm doing. Especially since the wood will probably shift more than the tolerance on that table pretty soon after the cut anyway.

Whats a little less clear is the tolerances that are acceptable on a jointer. When I'm doing edge jointing for a glue up, I do need those edges to be strait. Thats the issue I was running into. I did get those joints close enough to finish my glue up, but I still want a final answer on if the tables need adjustment or not. I'm not going to be able to do that with a piece of wood if I can't get it strait in the first place when the jointer is the tool I would use for that. I can't even be sure the wood is strait without a reference (I was sure the 2x6 I sued was strait because I used the jointer tables as a reference, but they aren't that long). All this becomes easier if you have a reference strait edge. I'm not going to buy another strait edge just to verify, I'll do my best to verify the Starrett with what I have, and then move on.

[mreza Salav]

Derek, I too try to dial machines to as close to perfect as possible, but what matters at the end is the end result (i.e. wood product) you get off of the machine.
If you join two pieces of wood and the two edges mate perfectly to your eye (i.e. no visible gap that requires clamp pressure to close) then it is good enough, even if your machine isn't dialed in "perfectly" or if your strait edge tolerances isn't that great.
I use a 36" cheap straight edge and also (sometimes) a 48" ruler which by no means is a machine setup equipment. I set up the machine using these and check the end result. If you don't have a reason to doubt your straight edge then go ahead and try to adjust your tables using that. If each table is flat by itself (which is the most important part) then you should be able to get the two tables and the cutter block co-planar. You have a single line (knife edges) and two planes (tables) that all need to be co-planar. I have never needed to adjust the cutter block (but that too is doable if needed). Start by making the outfeed table co-planar with the cutter block. Note that at this point the far end of the outfeed table has infinitely many position you can choose from (going up/down). Try to pick a middle point.
Then try to adjust the in-feed table. If you see your tables with the cutter block make a V and there is no way to adjust the in-feed any further then you need the drop the far end of the out-feed table a little and start over. If you see a /\ and you can't adjust the infeed anymore to fix then you need to raise the outfeed end higher. There are bolts/clamps at the front end of the tables (bolt can be used to adjust) and then you can shim the two sides of each hinge for the tables....

[Charles Coolidge]

I thought my $80 Woodpecker strait edge was more than sufficient until multiple people in this thread told me it was not.

The issue with jointers is the error is cumulative with each pass. Hence jointers are more frustrating to adjust near perfect so that over multiple passes any cumulative error is still within the tolerance of your project. Also even when setup near perfect there's still the human operator error factor. Feeding stock through the jointer requires a bit of practice, even pressure, even feed rate. I think I'm back to why I dislike jointers. lol

[Mark Hennebury]

Using two straightedges.

Top set: Reference edges fit perfectly together,
Second set down; Flip the lower one 180° , they fit perfectly.
Third set down; Both face forward but lower one offset to the left, both fit perfectly.
Fourth set down; Both face forward but lower one offset to the right, both fit perfectly.
Fifth set down: Lower one face backwards, offset to the left, both fit perfectly.
Sixth set down; Lower one face backwards, offset to the right, both fit perfectly.

Fit together perfectly. no errors, but not straight!

471936

[Mark Hennebury]

Using three;

Reference edge one and two fit.
Reference edges one and three fit;
Reference edges two and three show the error.

471938

[Mark Hennebury]

You should be able to finish plane joints with a handplane to within a 0.001" fit
They don't have to be straight, they have to be a complimentary fit.
As has been said, a lot of jointer accuracy is about feed, pressure and control........practice.

[derek labian]

I received the Starrett strait edge. It's much heavier than I expected as someone mentioned at that length. I compared my Woodpecker 36" I used at the beginning of the test. The Woodpecker is off by a solid .010 at the far end thus invalidating my readings. I hadn't really expected that to be possible with the tolerances on the website and the fact that it had no damage. For the few of you that pointed out I needed a more reliable strait edge before deciding the unit was out of plane, thank you. The in-feed is not out of plane.


As has been said, a lot of jointer accuracy is about feed, pressure and control........practice.

Isn't that the truth.

[Andrew Seemann]

I had trouble with my 8" Jet after I got it on longer boards. I was pretty sure it wasn't a set up issue as I had checked it pretty thoroughly when I assembled it.

I eventually figured out it was a technique issue on my part, something about how I was switching hands in the middle of the cut. I didn't have the same problem with my 6" Jet, probably because I never tried to do boards that long on it. I'm glad it was me and not the jointer; it was a lot easier to fix my technique than the jointer:)

[Andrew Hughes]

I received the Starrett strait edge. It's much heavier than I expected as someone mentioned at that length. I compared my Woodpecker 36" I used at the beginning of the test. The Woodpecker is off by a solid .010 at the far end thus invalidating my readings. I hadn't really expected that to be possible with the tolerances on the website and the fact that it had no damage. For the few of you that pointed out I needed a more reliable strait edge before deciding the unit was out of plane, thank you. The in-feed is not out of plane.



Isn't that the truth.

I experienced something similar. When I checked the aluminum straight edge from Lee Valley it looked like a noodle sitting on top of my precision straight edge.
The difference between a good jointer and a great one is very small. Most of the time I sit in a chair in front of my machine and face boards.
Only when they really long or horribly twisted do I need to stand up and pay attention to where I start my flat area.
I keep very sharp blades at all time in my machine and enjoy the process of setting news ones.
My experience is the outfeed height to the top of the cutting circle is the key in a jointer.
Good Luck Derek

[Charles Coolidge]

I received the Starrett strait edge. It's much heavier than I expected as someone mentioned at that length. I compared my Woodpecker 36" I used at the beginning of the test. The Woodpecker is off by a solid .010 at the far end thus invalidating my readings. I hadn't really expected that to be possible with the tolerances on the website and the fact that it had no damage. For the few of you that pointed out I needed a more reliable strait edge before deciding the unit was out of plane, thank you. The in-feed is not out of plane.



Isn't that the truth.

That's great news Derek, you have it on the run now!

[Brian Holcombe]

A strait is a narrow strip of land between two bodies of water, a strait is also a word that refers to a difficult situation.

Glad to hear that the Starrett straight edge resolved the issue. This is certainly one of the reasons that aluminum straight edges are not reliable and the reason why I believe in verifying quality of a straight edge before I use it for anything critical.

[derek labian]

A strait is a narrow strip of land between two bodies of water, a strait is also a word that refers to a difficult situation.

Glad to hear that the Starrett straight edge resolved the issue. This is certainly one of the reasons that aluminum straight edges are not reliable and the reason why I believe in verifying quality of a straight edge before I use it for anything critical.

Hah yes, rather embarrassing. I keep correcting myself but I tend to type phonetically, especially when in a hurry. It is hard not to hold poor spelling or grammar against someone, so thank you for your indulgence. :)

[Jared Sankovich]

If you ever do need to adjust the tables, more indicators make the process faster. Ideally would have one indicator on each corner
472101

[Mark Hennebury]

I don't understand what all of the dial indicators are needed for?


If you ever do need to adjust the tables, more indicators make the process faster. Ideally would have one indicator on each corner
472101

[Jared Sankovich]

I don't understand what all of the dial indicators are needed for?

The middle one is just stuck there not doing anything. The 90 degree block is just weight in that setup. I use it to set infeed height referenced against the knives like a one way gauge.

As you know adjusting one corner on that setup moves the other 3. Indicating 2 or more at once makes the process quicker

[Mark Hennebury]

I have dial and digital indicators, test indicators, 80lb 72" camelback scraped straight edges and a 6000lb 4' x 8' x14" surface plate , And I have never used any of them to setup or check my jointer. I use them for metalwork, they are recent acquisitions, I built a lot of furniture before I ever got them

All that you need to check a jointer is a verified straightedge, and that could be a piece of wood.

Check and verify that the individual tables are flat first. ( you need five reference points, the four corners and the center)
Then check that the tables are co-planer.
Then check that the tables and cutterhead are aligned ( cutterhead axis is parallel to the table)
check you knife protrusion.
set your infeed and outfeed table heights.
dress a stick and make any fine adjustments on the outfeed table to TDC of the cutting circle.
Joint a few pieces of wood, check for fit, adjust either the outfeed height or you technic to make fine adjustments to the results.

I have done precision woodworking for 50 years
Woodworking is not difficult, people make it difficult, they overcomplicate, or the overlook the basic concepts. If you miss the basics everything will be complicated and no amount of tools will make it easier.

My suggestions is to learn to do things without measuring tools. Learn to check flat, straight and square etc without tools, set up your jointer by dressing wood and reading what are the problems, if its the jointer or you. Check that your joiner fence is square, by dressing a couple of pieces of 1x6 placing the dressed edges on the jointer table, back to back, then flip one around, what does it tell you? Check the knife protrusion from the cutterhead with a stick, a pencil mark, check the outfeed table to top dead center with the same stick. Check you tablesaw the same way, the mitre slot to the saw, with a stick, the blade perpendicularity to the table, with a stick, the miter fence perpendicularity the the saw... with a stick. All of this is more accurate then measuring. Don't measure anything that you don't have to. I don't use a tape measure or a ruler, I use a story stick and transfer knife-lines. I sincerely doubt that anyone using expensive metrology equipment can get anything more accurate than me using a couple of sticks. My point, is learn the principles, understand the relationships, and how to check and reference things.



If you understand the relationships, for most things you wont need to measure anything. I you don't understand, then you have to trust your tools, and without being able to check and verify them, you will be working on blind faith, and that's not how I like to work. I prefer to know.


The basics are the foundation.

You need to understand wood, cell structure and moisture exchange, movement and strength, so that you can design properly and avoid all of the big mistakes that come from not knowing.
You need to understand referencing and relationships to be able to accurately set up you tools and machines, to set up your process and to be able to avoid cumulative errors.
You need a little bit of knowledge and the rest is project management.

Just my opinion, everyone has their own way of doing things.


472116472117 472119

[Jared Sankovich]

I have dial and digital indicators, test indicators, 80lb 72" camelback scraped straight edges and a 6000lb 4' x 8' x14" surface plate , And I have never used any of them to setup or check my jointer. I use them for metalwork, they are recent acquisitions, I built a lot of furniture before I ever got them

All that you need to check a jointer is a verified straightedge, and that could be a piece of wood.

Check and verify that the individual tables are flat first. ( you need five reference points, the four corners and the center)
Then check that the tables are co-planer.
Then check that the tables and cutterhead are aligned ( cutterhead axis is parallel to the table)
check you knife protrusion.
set your infeed and outfeed table heights.
dress a stick and make any fine adjustments on the outfeed table to TDC of the cutting circle.
Joint a few pieces of wood, check for fit, adjust either the outfeed height or you technic to make fine adjustments to the results.

I have done precision woodworking for 50 years
Woodworking is not difficult, people make it difficult, they overcomplicate, or the overlook the basic concepts. If you miss the basics everything will be complicated and no amount of tools will make it easier.

My suggestions is to learn to do things without measuring tools. Learn to check flat, straight and square etc without tools, set up your jointer by dressing wood and reading what are the problems, if its the jointer or you. Check that your joiner fence is square, by dressing a couple of pieces of 1x6 placing the dressed edges on the jointer table, back to back, then flip one around, what does it tell you? Check the knife protrusion from the cutterhead with a stick, a pencil mark, check the outfeed table to top dead center with the same stick. Check you tablesaw the same way, the mitre slot to the saw, with a stick, the blade perpendicularity to the table, with a stick, the miter fence perpendicularity the the saw... with a stick. All of this is more accurate then measuring. Don't measure anything that you don't have to. I don't use a tape measure or a ruler, I use a story stick and transfer knife-lines. I sincerely doubt that anyone using expensive metrology equipment can get anything more accurate than me using a couple of sticks. My point, is learn the principles, understand the relationships, and how to check and reference things.



If you understand the relationships, for most things you wont need to measure anything. I you don't understand, then you have to trust your tools, and without being able to check and verify them, you will be working on blind faith, and that's not how I like to work. I prefer to know.


The basics are the foundation.

You need to understand wood, cell structure and moisture exchange, movement and strength, so that you can design properly and avoid all of the big mistakes that come from not knowing.
You need to understand referencing and relationships to be able to accurately set up you tools and machines, to set up your process and to be able to avoid cumulative errors.
You need a little bit of knowledge and the rest is project management.

Just my opinion, everyone has their own way of doing things.


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You can certainly do it with a straight stick. It just takes longer if you are starting from a unknown setup imho. I don't typically bother setting the outfeed height with anything more than a straight edge. If suddenly I'm getting odd results and the straight edge confirms issues. I'll break out real measuring tools and adjust.

Sort of like lacing and truing a spoked wheel. People do it all the time with a pointer and a stand and no actual measuring tools. 3 indicators make it a fast and simple process.

Edit

What I'm trying to say is that setup doesn't need to be a iterative process if you can see all the variables in real time.

[derek labian]

I've been away from this project for a while, resorting to other methods for straightening wood. Here's what I've observed about my jointer:


1. With the jointer set to a 0" cut, both in-feed and out-feed tables are perfectly parallel. I can't fit a .0015 feeler gauge under a 72" straight edge anywhere along its length.

2. I trust the accuracy of my straight edge. When I reverse it or test it on other precision surfaces, the results are consistent.

3. The issue arises when I lower the in-feed table: the right side descends more than the center, making it out of plane with the out-feed table.

4.On the distant end of my straight edge, the in-feed drops by .018. This decreases to .0025 closer to the cutter head.

5. I'm uncertain if this misalignment worsens the more it's lowered, but it might.

This misalignment seems to be the reason behind the cupping I'm experiencing but since it appears to be a ratio issue, its even more odd. If no one has experienced this issue I may contact SCM as a last resort.

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[Mark Hennebury]

If it's a parallelogram system then it would seem the the pivot hole centers are different on the middle pivot arms to the ones on the the right side, on the infeed table. Or they are not parallel, can you adjust them ?