How much is stock worth? To buy a wadkin or a frankenstine saw.

[Dev Emch]

I have a question for you guys. How much is a wadkin table saw worth? Now before you answer this, understand that some of my tools are for collecting fun as much as for work. A hobby interlaced into work.

The wadkin PK has always been a dream saw of mine but they never come up. I love its curvy shape and all that. But if your buying a vintage Burgatti or Al Capone's Cadilac, you want the machine to be dean on stock. Jackson Barrett Auctions do not want muscle car frankenstiens with motors from chevy in bodies by chylser and drive lines by ford. Gun collectors also have a term for this as do the car guys... the term is "Numbers Matching". The worth of something really goes down when its a hodge podge of misc. parts from other models or even other makes.

Here is my dilema. The number of wadkin PKs in the US is very small and they are desirable. So that pushes the value up. But I have been working on buying one in which the original fence was lost. It was replaced by a stray tannewitz J fence along with a table with inlaid strips. Bump the table and your fence is out of alignment. Its also missing the filler strips, the secondary fence for the two part quadrant gage, the dado arbor extension, the riving knife assembly, the cast iron rip fence extension wing, the entire stock rip fence with micro adjust. And that is just the details I have researched so far.

In dealing with wadkin, their attitude is that this saw is very old and that its unlikely they can replace these missing items. Furthermore, the cost of replacing these items will be prohibitive. If their prices are anything like oliver (eagle machinery & repair), then your going to need to take a valeum (sp?) for each estimate.

In dealing with wadkin and in dealing with the seller, I did bring this laundry list if missing goodies up. I think I should get a discounted price for the saw given all that is missing. The seller refused and relisted the machine in our favorate digi-space flee market.

So what do do. Do you guys think I should just pay the guy and eat the difference? After all, I have been looking for one of these for mucho years and who knows when the next chance comes up. Or do you think I just hold out and reduce my offer even more? The longer I wait, the more motivated he becomes. Boy is this a quandry. Maybe I should just wait for another PK to show up. As time moves on, and these become older and older, their market value will decline even more.

So what do you guys think?

[Brian Hale]

Never settle for less than what you want. IMHO, It's worth the wait.

Brian :)

[Jim Hager]

While I know for sure that I'm not as picky about my machinery as you are, I certainly know that I would not want to buy something made of a hodgepodge of parts from this and that. I never have had much appreciation for something that is a makedo and not the "real" thing. Having said that I think that you already know the answer to your own question. The only way that you could accept this machine is for the parts to be readily available and reasonably affordable so that the machine could be put back in order in a reasonable manner.

[Vaughn McMillan]

...Bump the table and your fence is out of alignment. Its also missing ...

So what do you guys think?
I think these items will stick in your craw long after the thrill of owning the saw wears away. Keep in mind the amateur status of my opinion, but that's what I think.

- Vaughn

[Michael Ballent]

If it is going to cost you a fortune to replace the parts or you have to manufacture the replacements I would not get it... But again I do not have the machinist skills you have, so what may be a daunting taskl for me may be a easy for you to deal with... I would think that the main issue would be the fence... you said that if you hit the table it goes out of alignment... I would think that would be a big deal for me at least. The fence assemblies are the the most important part of a TS. So based on the fence issue I think I would pass.

BTW I was planning on going to Barrett Jackson auction this weekend but got stuck having to work... It's an amazing thing to see all those cars. :D

[Brett Baldwin]

Dev, wait it out. If the guy comes down to a price that would make it a worthwhile investment as a parts saw, then reconsider the deal. Otherwise save your money for the one that just needs some TLC or that perfect one sitting in a forgotten shop somewhere. You know that with your attention to detail you wouldn't be happy with a mismatched saw that, by your own admission, you are purchasing as basically a collectible item.

I don't even know what one of these looks like but I'll be looking it up after I post this. You've got me curious now.

[Reg Mitchell]

Good evening Dev,
I have had the opportunity to get to know you a little and you have helped me, and others, imensly.
You are a very maticulas person, knowlegable and thruough. If you get the saw in the shape you have discribed you wouldn't be satusfied until you had all the aminities that go along with it. Granted you are the type that would be able to find them but why pay such a premium for something that isn't exactly what you want.
Only if the guy lowers the price to a reasonable price to compensate for the missing parts, in my opinion, would it be the right buy for you.
Just hoiw i see it.......and i am pertty sure you already know what your wanting to do just wanting to hear it from others. :)
Good luck

[Mark Rios]

Aaaahhhh, something I can chime in on. Dev, Having been raised in a body shop and having a dad that owned body shops and restored cars from the 50's and 60's as a hobby, I can relate to your dilemma. If you collect for the intrinsic value as well as the monetary, then the answer is obvious; Just like a 64 1/2 Mustang, the numbers need to match. If you choose not to put it back together in "original" condition, for whatever reason, then it will never really be original. (This example may not be exactly analogous but it should be close enough) If you want the machine, be it a car or a table saw, for the sheer and sincere, novelty and joy of having it's uniqueness in your shop then, buy it, get it as close as you can, and drive it and have fun. :D :D :D

[Dev Emch]

I think you guys are correct. Been chasing this elusive one for many years and it looks like the search will continue. There is just to many items missing to make it worthwhile. And if I cannot get the parts, I wlll need to make the patterns, get them cast and machine them. This is a restoration job that could take me two years of part time weekend hours to complete. Well maybe not that long but a significant amount of effort that I am not getting compensated for at the entry point. So I am going to pass on it.

[J.R. Rutter]

Have you tried looking up north? I think that they tend to bring in more UK brands than shops in the states. Might be something kicking around up there.

[Chris Giles]

That is a very beautiful saw you are referring to. I noticed it a while back and had the same concerns as you. I live nearby, and could have picked up the saw myself, but the price was a sticking point. He seems quite stubborn about it. Have you considered that the missing parts might be readily available in the UK, and shipped here? It might be worth checking out because that saw is a work of art.

[Dev Emch]

That is a very beautiful saw you are referring to. I noticed it a while back and had the same concerns as you. I live nearby, and could have picked up the saw myself, but the price was a sticking point. He seems quite stubborn about it. Have you considered that the missing parts might be readily available in the UK, and shipped here? It might be worth checking out because that saw is a work of art.
I called england last night 3:00 AM my time and spoke to two guys at wadkin and left email requests at colin.bulman@waskinultracare.com. They said that the parts were not in stock and that they would need to pull the engineering drawings and fabricate from there. The term I was given was Hideiously Expensive and not worth it for a 40 year old saw. Of course I hold a different perspective about this machine. Nonetheless, the lowest estimate about $2500 to $3000 dollars for manufactured parts. The hardest item to make would be the fence extension wing and riving knife bracket as both are complex and the patterns are no where to be found. So they would need to have patterns made for these two castings followed by the castings. Hey, I dont care if I need to have custom made parts that are exact engineering duplicates by wadkin. As long as they are spot on identical. Then this gem would be brought back to stock which is where I want it. I just cannot bear to drop $4000 dollars on it followed by another $2500 to $3000 dollars to bring this saw back which is equivalent to a tannewitz J with a sliding table. In england, these sell used with all the stock fittings for less than $3000 US dollars. I even saw one on UK ebay go for 417 pounds. Its just frustrating. It was once said that the user does not find old iron, rather old iron finds the user. This cannot be further from the truth. So the wait goes on.

But dont be surprised if I wind up checking my common sense at the door and setting a snipe bot. Yes, Bill, you had a bad influence on me.:) I took your advice and never turned back.:) I like my snipe automatic with a nice orange marmalade glaze.

[Michael Ballent]

I called england last night 3:00 AM my time and spoke to two guys at wadkin and left email requests at colin.bulman@waskinultracare.com. They said that the parts were not in stock and that they would need to pull the engineering drawings and fabricate from there. The term I was given was Hideiously Expensive and not worth it for a 40 year old saw. Of course I hold a different perspective about this machine. Nonetheless, the lowest estimate about $2500 to $3000 dollars for manufactured parts. The hardest item to make would be the fence extension wing and riving knife bracket as both are complex and the patterns are no where to be found. So they would need to have patterns made for these two castings followed by the castings. Hey, I dont care if I need to have custom made parts that are exact engineering duplicates by wadkin. As long as they are spot on identical. Then this gem would be brought back to stock which is where I want it. I just cannot bear to drop $4000 dollars on it followed by another $2500 to $3000 dollars to bring this saw back which is equivalent to a tannewitz J with a sliding table. In england, these sell used with all the stock fittings for less than $3000 US dollars. I even saw one on UK ebay go for 417 pounds. Its just frustrating. It was once said that the user does not find old iron, rather old iron finds the user. This cannot be further from the truth. So the wait goes on.

If they are more available in the UK, have you considered just picking it up there and getting it shipped to the US? I cannot believe that it would be more than $1500 to ship it here... then you would only have to figure out where to get the motor since they are at 50Hz (I think) or is the other way around, I never seem to remember... :D

[Dev Emch]

If they are more available in the UK, have you considered just picking it up there and getting it shipped to the US? I cannot believe that it would be more than $1500 to ship it here... then you would only have to figure out where to get the motor since they are at 50Hz (I think) or is the other way around, I never seem to remember... :D

Yes I have. I have located one in england as we speak; however, I have not gotten any further info from my contact. I will call him tonight or this morning. The 50 hz is really not an issue. Most well made 50 hz motors run at 60 hz as well. My hoffman motor was designed for 50 hz and we run them here at 60 hz. There is a slight speed change. An english PK runs at 3000 RPM and a US PK runs at about 3450 RPM.

The other issue to consider is the horsepower. From what I have been able to unravel, the english machines are rated at 4 HP and the US machines are rated at 5 HP. So there are some minor issues to look into.

[Michael Ballent]

Yes I have. I have located one in england as we speak; however, I have not gotten any further info from my contact. I will call him tonight or this morning. The 50 hz is really not an issue. Most well made 50 hz motors run at 60 hz as well. My hoffman motor was designed for 50 hz and we run them here at 60 hz. There is a slight speed change. An english PK runs at 3000 RPM and a US PK runs at about 3450 RPM.

The other issue to consider is the horsepower. From what I have been able to unravel, the english machines are rated at 4 HP and the US machines are rated at 5 HP. So there are some minor issues to look into.

Well what ever the outcome, that really is a nice looking piece of iron :) Heck if the guy says it's for local pick just fly on over and get yourself you nice pint of ale :D Got a passport :rolleyes:

[Dev Emch]

Well what ever the outcome, that really is a nice looking piece of iron :) Heck if the guy says it's for local pick just fly on over and get yourself you nice pint of ale :D Got a passport :rolleyes:
Isnt it. I would use the Se** adjective to describe it but I think I might get into SMC trouble. You have to admit that this saw just has those sensuous lines and old school design elements. There is no doubt that this saw will make an awsome addition to someone's shop. I am just having a mid-life crisis over wether or not I should just pay the man and forget about it. In time, I can clone the parts myself. But its a classic left side versus right side brain argument right now. Pragmatism versus Sensuous. Who will win.

I have to admit that this project can generate a ton of good SMC woodworking threads covering patterns and machining work.

[Dan Forman]

Dev---For the uninitiated, can you post of picture of an example of the elusive beast so that we may suffer along with you in your dilemma?

Dan

[Michael Ballent]

Dev---For the uninitiated, can you post of picture of an example of the elusive beast so that we may suffer along with you in your dilemma?

Dan

Go to E-Prey and search for Wadkin

[Dev Emch]

I dont wish to get into any more trouble than i am but I can post one picture of a PK that sold in england. This one has the super ugly paint scheme so it needs to be repainted. Other than that, most of this one was there. Missed this one by a couple of weeks. Spent to much time in the pubs I guess...:D Here you can see the stock fence with its micro adjust and continous setting ability. The fence rides a set of dovetail gibs in a dovetail slot. Crank the lever and the shoes release and the fence moves left or right. Then tighten. Now you have micrometer control with knob. You can also see the fence extension wing. If you look at the HE WHO CANNOT BE MENTIONED site, you will notice that the slider has wooden lips. The inside of the table by the blade also has wooden lips. This is great! The slider moves left or right to adjust for dado capability but when I close this, it seals the top so that I am not getting pelted by a constant stream of swarf comming up from below through the slider gap. This is one reason i sold my northfield sliding table saw (#4 slider). It also offers the best compromise between a true slider and a saw with a dedicated throat plate. Recall we had discussions about wooden throat plates at length here? The ability to use a wooden, easy to make throat plate arangement is a real boon to clean, splinter free cutting. When you bugger it up, you replace it with a home made one costing you cents in scrap wood. Notice the angle tilt control? Its on the front. How many times have you guys put those long 50 inch Beiesmyer fence systems on a saw only to find it awkward to crank the arbor over because you have to do a reach around from below to find the angle tilt wheel? They also use a small wheel for this. The PK uses a front mount wheel which is BIG. BIG as in extra leverage. Both height and tilt are controlled by their very own fully sealed, dust free gear boxes. Worms and gear ratios work to make going up and down and tilting from 0 to 45 degrees super easy. The sliding table floats on 8 standard sealed for life SKF bearings mounted on eccentric bolts to the sub carriage. These ride in tracks in the sliding table. By having only two rows of bearings, you avoid the condition where disorganized bearing fields have trouble keeping the table bearings all in one plane. This results in a bumpy ride as one US maker once put it. It also makes things hard to adjust. The PK is easy to adjust. Dust control is super simple. The blade flask doubles as an access hatch. One bolt and the flask folds down. In the flask is a curved vane diverter which helps channel swarf right out the back. Serious dust contamination of the motor and motor compartment does not happen. The fence also tilts if you need to do bevel work. This is no plywood cutter! Its small and optimized for doing hard wood. I saw my first PK twenty years ago and I still have that teenage love affair with it. Its sensous lines compliment the sensous lines of my yates Y-20 snowflake bandsaw. Sorry, i cannot help it. Sensous(femine) curves attract and boxy shapes(masculine) repell.

[Michael Ballent]

Does the face of the fence tilt? Why would you want to have that function?

[Dan Forman]

Dev---I feel your pain! That is indeed a sexy looking machine (easier to see the potential in the one on the bay). If you did buy it, and fabricate the needed parts yourself, at least it would keep you out of trouble for a while.:D

If they are as rare as you say, who knows when the next one will materialize, or what shape it will be in. If you were an ordinary mortal, I would agree with the rest of them and say pass it up. But with your background, if you don't mind doing the work to restore it, go for it.

Dan

[Dev Emch]

Does the face of the fence tilt? Why would you want to have that function?

yes it does. It functions as an oliver F fence would. In the oliver world, you have E and F fences on the large saws like 260s and 88s. The F fence was an option on the 88 but I think it was standard on the 260.

This allows you to cut bevels. By being able to either tilt the blade or tilt the fence, your able to obtain a comfortable bevel cutting angle for the work at hand. It could be throw back to olden days when the table was tilted and the blade arbor was fixed. You had to crank the table up and down and tilt the table. Dangerous and Difficult work. By tilting the fence, many jobs were made easier. As the tilting arbor took over, more and more, the tilting fence face went away. Remember, the PK is from the golden days of woodworking which makes it about 40 or so year old. They thought differently in those days.

[Dev Emch]

Dev---I feel your pain! That is indeed a sexy looking machine (easier to see the potential in the one on the bay). If you did buy it, and fabricate the needed parts yourself, at least it would keep you out of trouble for a while.:D

If they are as rare as you say, who knows when the next one will materialize, or what shape it will be in. If you were an ordinary mortal, I would agree with the rest of them and say pass it up. But with your background, if you don't mind doing the work to restore it, go for it.

Dan

It is a rare occurance when the stars line up and industry hits a home run. Where the industrial designers, engineers, marketing folks and users seem to arrive at a common harmonic convergence. Machines like the Kindt Collins spindle sander and post potbelly disc sanders as well as the yates american Y-20 snowflake are examples of this. Not only did they excel at the technical points, but they added that extra sensous style that actually makes the machine attractive in its own right. The PK is one such machine. By todays standards, its considered an obsolete antique by many. Funtionality is not up to date and the cost of manufacture is exteme. The machine work alone was overkill. For every PK made, other companies can crank out oddles of cabinet saws.

On the down side, some have complained that the controls are set to low. Being that the NBA has never nor will ever knock on my door, this is not an issue for me. But if your one of these bean sprouts that can tear the net off the ring single handed, this saw may be akward to use.

[Gary Sutherland]

I've seen some of the later Wadkin Burgreen saws, which are very nice, but none of the early Wadkin saws. (I love old machinery, but really don't know much about it compared to many of you guys.) That looks like a sweet saw.

This PK's sitting in the UK for $2026 USD. Says it's 5HP with a DC brake. Was that standard on the PK? If shipping's not a killer is this a good deal? Not in the market myself at the moment (well, I'm always in the market, "in my head", but $$$...sigh) just curious about the value?


Gary

[Paul Canaris]

Have you asked Wadkin if they would provide you the machinists specifications for the parts you are missing if they are unable or unwilling to sell them to you. I dont know how woodworking manufacturers are in this regard, but some manufacturers of metal working machinery will do this once they run out of parts to sell on obsolete lines.

[Bill Simmeth]

Sorry I'm late to the party! Without question, I would pass on the Frankensaw on that online auction site that Al Gore founded. No way you'd be happy with that fence arrangement and getting a new one produced sounds like a pipe-dream. If you're determined to get one of these (and it's a fine-looking machine even if not 'murican), the one in England that Gary posted about looks - on the surface - like a winner. If you like it after digital inspection (or hey do it in person - I hear London is lovely in January :rolleyes: ), have it shipped. Even with the cost of going to England to inspect, I bet you'd spend less than buying/shipping the saw in Mass. Chuck does it all the time. Different ocean, but I am sure he can offer some advice. My 2¢

PS... Glad to hear that you now only object to snipes coming from planers. Makes life a lot simpler, doesn't it? :D

[tod evans]

dev, if as you say you`re looking for one of these saws as a collectors item as well as to use you should let this one go. i collect old hand tools and the value is definately affected if parts are not date correct for the tool. if you want to buy it for a user then that`s a different story alltogether...only you know what it`s worth as a user? you know this allready so use your head and don`t be taken in by pretty curves alone....02 tod

[Phil Pritchard]

I collect old hand tools and the value is definately affected if parts are not date correct for the tool.
I don't feel that applies to machinery quite as much simply because manufacturers frequently kept a machine the same for much of its life. PKs were produced from the 1930s until replaced by the PP around 1962, but Wadkin probably supplied PKs to order much after that date, in the same way that the EQ spindle was available until the very late 1980s, despite having been "dropped" in the late 1960s/early 1970s. If you wanted a one off Wadkin were frequently happy to oblige. Hence my feeling that whatever you buy there isn't really a "catalogue standard" especially if you take into account individual customer requirements, different specs. for different markets, changes made by both the factoryy and user to meet legislative (safety) changes, etc. Face it, a woodworking ,machine more than 10 years old is probably no longer truly original.

As to shipping one of these - they weigh in at over a tonne and so require specialist haulage which won't be cheap. I'd suggest that Dev considers sourcing his machine in the USA and getting someone over here to supply him with spares obtained by scrapping a working machine. There are older machines over here in the UK, but there aren't too many people knowledgeable about them any more.

BTW that PK in green is non-original. PKs were originally either grey or dark grey and were all manufactured at Green Lane, Leicester (therefore genuine Wadkins, not Bursgreens)

Here's an illustration of the PK from Wadkin's 1936 catalogue:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/Real_Scrit/cWadkinPK.jpg

Actually an amazingly modern machine. To meet current EU legislation these machines really onlu need a neew crown guard and a motor brake - pretty advanced for a 70 year old design don't you think?

[Bill Simmeth]

so use your head and don`t be taken in by pretty curves alone...This is sage advice and sounds like it's spoken through experience. (Based on your post about Barbies in SoCal, I think I understand.) :p :D

[Dev Emch]

Have you asked Wadkin if they would provide you the machinists specifications for the parts you are missing if they are unable or unwilling to sell them to you. I dont know how woodworking manufacturers are in this regard, but some manufacturers of metal working machinery will do this once they run out of parts to sell on obsolete lines.

They will not. As for metal working machines. Have you ever tried to get part information and copies of engineering drawings for a Brown & SHarpe out of DeVlieg or what ever they call themselves these days. I can pull molars with a pliers with greater ease than that! A simple arbor support bracket for my B&S omniversal was qouted out at over $5000 dollars. Eventually found a dealer on ebay who was cluless as to which machine it fit but sold it for $99 bucks. Lucky for me, the brackets were identical across the #2 horizontal and the #0 omniversal. My omniversal was missing a number of these parts which is once again further reason not to pursue this wadkin. I am still trying to finish a vertical milling head attachement bracket. The orig. looked likes this. Just a matter of finding time which in the last year was tight. Now its tighter than ever. I would like to shoot the clocks including Big Ben!:D just make them stop for a couple hours per work day.:D

[Jeff Singleton]

Dev, I have bought machines that needed parts and being a patternmaker I made the patterns and had them cast locally and had them Blanchard and surface ground locally. A lot of table saws like Oliver, Tannewitz, Whitney and Northfield come with the accessories that the buyer wanted and no more. They did not all have miter guages and fences and dado extensions. Do you think that this saw came with everything there was or just a few accessories? I quess I look at this a little different them most. I would buy the saw, hay, it's your dream saw, complete or not. Fix it the way you want, get new parts made. The fence and guage fence are very easy patterns and the table extension is even easier, no cores and only drags for the patterns. Around here cast iron with a lot of cores goes for about $1.50 per pound. By doing it that way you leave your mark on the saw and man it feels great to know that you brought a piece of iron back to life. As rare as PK's are you might not find another, if you do what are the chance it is complete, especially if it came from auction. I bought a Oliver 166, 9" jointer that was all broken up and needs 4 castings made. I paid $50 for the jointer and when I am done, hopeful by next summers end, I will have a great little jointer instead of scrapping it out, sending the scrap to China and China returning it as Harbor Freight or Chicago Phuematic. Just my two cents worth and a weird two cents as that.

Jeff Singleton;) :o

[Dev Emch]

Dev, I have bought machines that needed parts and being a patternmaker I made the patterns and had them cast locally and had them Blanchard and surface ground locally. A lot of table saws like Oliver, Tannewitz, Whitney and Northfield come with the accessories that the buyer wanted and no more. They did not all have miter guages and fences and dado extensions. Do you think that this saw came with everything there was or just a few accessories? I quess I look at this a little different them most. I would buy the saw, hay, it's your dream saw, complete or not. Fix it the way you want, get new parts made. The fence and guage fence are very easy patterns and the table extension is even easier, no cores and only drags for the patterns. Around here cast iron with a lot of cores goes for about $1.50 per pound. By doing it that way you leave your mark on the saw and man it feels great to know that you brought a piece of iron back to life. As rare as PK's are you might not find another, if you do what are the chance it is complete, especially if it came from auction. I bought a Oliver 166, 9" jointer that was all broken up and needs 4 castings made. I paid $50 for the jointer and when I am done, hopeful by next summers end, I will have a great little jointer instead of scrapping it out, sending the scrap to China and China returning it as Harbor Freight or Chicago Phuematic. Just my two cents worth and a weird two cents as that.

Jeff Singleton;) :o
Jeff, as someone who has also does patternwork, I am inclined to agree with you. But most of the work I do is for myself or friends. The problem is that this saw will not cost $40 dollars or even $400 dollars. I cannot get the saw enroute to my place for less than $4000 dollars as is. That is a pile of cash for a project. True, the patterns are straight forward. But a). You dont have the actual engineering prints for the parts. and b). if you had to do it, would you do it for free? I dont think so. So than why should I do it for free by subsidizing the price. There in lies the pickle. Had this seller been a bit more flexible, the machine would have been outta-dere licky split. Of course I am not going to tell him that I know how to make patterns and that I have my own machine shop including two openside rockford planers and a devlieg 3B-48 jig bore milling machine among others. If I was truely bored and looking for a challenge, I would build the whole saw from scratch. But as entertaining as that might be, I dont have the time right now to do it. Furthermore, I am looking for a second operation saw that is more a collectable than a real work horse. If I didnt care about the machine and just needed to get the job done cheap and fast, I would be sending papa grizz the order.

P.S. Of all the lumber I have purchased in the last year, every bit of the mahogony I bought has gone into patterns. Not one stich went into doors or cabinet work. Funny. It such a nice wood to work with.

[Dev Emch]

Jeff...
Off Topic. Do you know of any local foundaries in your area that can do a onesie or twosie ram up and pour of meehanite iron? I am always looking for a good meehanite fix. Many smaller onesie twosie foundaries are pouring gray iron and some are not even using induction furnaces. I know of some foundaries that can pour meehanite but the first question they ask is how many pallets per week of parts would you like?

[Jeff Singleton]

Dev, It's hard to believe that the guy wants 4 grand for that saw. If I knew it was that much I would not have bought it either, good pass up. As far as meehonite goes I will check on Weds. who around here does pour that. We have a foundry that pours 45,000 lbs. 5 nights a week and is quoting 17 weeks right know. But there are a lot of smaller 2000-30000 lbs. metal melters around here. They all pour schedule 40, ductile and gray iron but they also dope up their iron as well to whatever the recipe calls for. If I can't find one you may check with Powermatic and see who bought their foundry in Tenn., they may still pour it. With meehonite being kinda soft is there a big call for it? I will see what the mininmum is as afar as poundage goes or they may wait till they get enough casting orders for a full pour. Reminds me of the time back in about 1985 when a foundry around here was pouring 65,000 lbs. and had about 3 tons left in the crusible and for some reason a mold calasped and they poured it out on the dirt floor just to get it out of the crusible. Well, nobody small that small puddle of water (leaky roof & rain the night before) and they poured it in the puddle. Boom, blew the whole end out of the building, 3 guy's got fired. Lucky nobody got killed. If you ever been in an iron foundry you know how damn dark it is and how a little puddle could pass by so many eyes noticed. :eek:

Jeff Singleton

[Michael Ballent]

Dev, What is the advantage of meehanite? I have seen you mention it a few other times and now that you guys have me thinking about machining I have noticed that the manufacturers mentioning it in their specs... So what makes meehanite special for machinery?

[lou sansone]

question for phil who posted the information on the PK.. so what do you english chaps think of the pk and the pp? Dev and I have been kicking them around over here in the states.

lou

[Dev Emch]

Meehanite is the good stuff. I have written some long diatribes on it so search the SMC record base for it. Its spelled Meehanite. You can also get more information at www.meehanite.com.

The standard cast iron is gray iron. Meehanite is a collection of special meehanite alloys that are ductile irons. What makes them special is that machine tool builders, both wood and metal, were using meehanite for years. All canadian generals are made form meehanite. Your brake rotors and drums are meehanite.

The major advantage of using meehanite is that you have a standarized, extremely stable material. This stuff will not warp easyily once seasoned. Most imported machines are not made with meehanite and who knows how long they will stay stable. Often, end users blame themselves for not doing something right with the result of their perceived actions being a warped jointer or saw table. This is not the case. Those warped items were going to warp no matter what. It is what it is... a manufacturing defect.

Now not everyone can use the term meehanite legally. As a foundary, you have to follow certain quality control and inspection procedures and you have submit samples of your pours for metalurgical inspection. You also have to pay to belong to the meehanite trade organization which in turn allows you to use the meehanite name in your product's sales collateral and brochures.

Meehanite is really a creation of the United States and portions of Europe and it has its roots in old school, rust belt america. They may have branched out and began certifying overseas foundaries. To this end, I am not sure. This would be welcome news to me. So I always weary about new companies importing stuff with the meehanite name afixed. To do so implies tracability and paper trails. It would take minutes to determine if the use of the name and the metal was indeed counterfit. I guess the buyer gets what he pays for.

[Dev Emch]

quick disclaimer....

You dont know what heat is until you pour iron in a back yard furnace set up. There are plans on the internet to allow the hobbyist to do this. Should you embark on this project, PLEASE obey all foundaryman's safety rules and for heaven's sake be careful.

You should pour over a bed of DRY sand. Never pour onto concrete or esp. concrete or dirt outside. Small amounts of water will literally explode like a couple of M-80s tied together. Also, you should make up a sand trap from casting sand and form some ingot images in this sand. Make sure you have enough ingot space to accept the full melt. The sand you use here is the same type of sand used to ram up the cope and drag.

This is done in case of an emergency. SHould your mould experience a collapse or blow out, you can quickly discard the molten residual.

And lastly, meehanite pours at 2800 degrees F. Simply put, that is HOT! WHITE HOT! Like i said, short of standing on the edge of a volcano, its rare that mortal humans have ever experienced that heat... at least those who have never worked in foundary.

[Dev Emch]

question for phil who posted the information on the PK.. so what do you english chaps think of the pk and the pp? Dev and I have been kicking them around over here in the states.

lou

Good question Lou... I cannot wait to read this reply.:D

[Dev Emch]

Here is an example of the piddily junk that wadkin has built over the years.:D Please dont druel to hard on your keyboard.

[Phil Pritchard]

Good question Lou... I cannot wait to read this reply.:D
Sorry you've got to wait a bit for me to reply as I'm on the Right Hand Side of the pond :rolleyes: ...... Personally I hanker after a Robinson of Rochdale equivalent of the PK - if only because the factory was 10 miles down the road from my present workshop. Nothing against the PK, it's just that I'm supporting the home team! I feel, if anything, that the PP is a bit better from my point of view than the PK as it is a early 1960s design (i.e. you can still get some spares for the PP, whilst the PK was designed in the 1930s and is more difficult to source spares for) and I'm a trade woodworker with an eye to meeting the safety regulations (ergo newer is sometimes better, but not always). However, the PK certainly looks better.

Perhaps I am fortunate that within 30 miles of where I live we once had some of the greatest woodworking machinery manufacturers in the UK: Robinson's of Rochdale [est. 1847], Pickles of Hebden Bridge (their patent stair trencher is still made today, albeit with CNC controller), Sagar of Halifax, Dominion of Halifax, Junior Whitehead of Halifax, Wilson Brothers of Leeds [est. 1851], Haigh of Oldham, oh and Wadkin also had a factory here at Trawden near Burnley until the 1980s. Just for good measure my missus hails from Wadkin's home town, however I was brought up to believe that White of Paisley made the best (and heaviest) machines and their bandsaws were certainly more sophisticated than anyone else's, but for much machinery there really wasn't much to choose from between White, Wadkin [est. 1907], Sagar and Robinson. All of them made excellent, heavy duty kit and much of it is very long lived. BTW the lathe shown was a Wadkin RS which are still favoured by industrial woodturners over here as "the best" - they were made as standard with length over bed up to 12 feet. If you wanted to go bigger, then the machine of choice is the much larger and heavier RU - available up to a staggering 24 feet over bed I've been told. Both the RS and RU are shown in the links below.

To give you some idea of what British woodworkers had available to them take a look at these three catalogues posted by an Australian collector (with thanks to Titanium Studios): Sagar (http://www.titaniumstudios.com/tooljunkie/paper/c1925SagarCatalogue.pdf), Wadkin (http://www.titaniumstudios.com/tooljunkie/paper/Wadkin1936.pdf) and Robinson (http://www.titaniumstudios.com/tooljunkie/paper/RobinsonSeries9.pdf). I've owned some of this stuff myself in the past including a Sagar IZ chain/chisel mortiser (c.1920) and Wadkin RE thicknesser, and apart from the saw I'm currently on the hunt for a Wadkin LQ recessor (another 1930s design).

If anyone needs spares for old British machines and it is worth me trying to source "scrappers" here and strip them to supply you, please don't hesitate to contact me and I'll see what I can do as I come across all sorts of stuff on my travels.

[Dev Emch]

I've seen some of the later Wadkin Burgreen saws, which are very nice, but none of the early Wadkin saws. (I love old machinery, but really don't know much about it compared to many of you guys.) That looks like a sweet saw.

This PK's sitting in the UK for $2026 USD. Says it's 5HP with a DC brake. Was that standard on the PK? If shipping's not a killer is this a good deal? Not in the market myself at the moment (well, I'm always in the market, "in my head", but $$$...sigh) just curious about the value?


Gary

So Gary...
Whats the story about this greenie meanie? Tell us more about it. The suspense is killing me.

[Dev Emch]

Oh Boy, good thing some auction sites post questions. I did not notice this until a perspective bidder asked about this. The PK in question has washers shimming out the front plate. The seller says that the tilt was stiff and the washers were needed to relieve the stiffness. Oh Boy! That sounds like someone bumped or kissed the tilt wheel with a forklift or what not. Sounds like the main tilt shaft is tweaked. More work to work on. Good thing I didnt jump on this deal. You really need to inspect the high value cream puffs as all used machines have some issues of some kind. Question is two fold. Are the issues repairable and if so, are you getting appropriate compensation for having these issues in the sales price.

[Chris Alexander]

Talk about pricy, Wadkin North America quoted me 3700 dollars for the rails and fence on my AGS-12, after I picked my self up, " fell off my chair " I told him about the sun and where it don;t never mind shine, I received a bunch of good imput from all the guys and will settle for an after market retro fit. I guess I am more into using the Saw then looking at it in its original state of being. Functional before fasionable... If you are going for the fasion, spend the bucks if you have them... but bottom line is, never take any prisoners, and you Can always have what you want... what the heck did the rolling stones ever know... wish you luck bub.. Chris.

[Dave Lindgren]

From my old (60'S) toolroom days, meehanite was the choice for jigs and fixtures because of its low warpage (the manufacturing process distributes the carbon granules evenly through the iron) and its total lack of voids. We used it for bases for height guages and similar ilk. would not take as good a polish as standard cast, but for what we were making that wasn't necessary. Besides, if the tool looked that good, we'd send it out for brush chrome plating. Ah those were the good ole days with one of my genius employees using a vapor degreaser to clean an engine block, and another using the vibratory tumbler for cleaning brass to be reloaded. But since I was the boss, I never knew about that :D Would like to have a small engine block made of meehanite, just to see how it held up.

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