Changing sharpening workflow - Help please! How often do you strop?

[Steve Catts]

I am done with the mess of my (Norton) waterstones. I think I end up with pretty good results off of the 8000 stone but know that it can be much better. I recently had to restore my 1" chisel back to 25 deg. and that is what put me over the edge. One hour later and finger cramps exploding, I determined it is time for a change.

I intend to get a half-speed Rikon grinder, CBN 180 grit wheel, 300/1000 diamond plate for flattening and setting secondary bevel, a 6 or 8000 Shapton glass for occasional edge restoration and a 16000 Shapton glass for honing. I am not a follower of Rob Cosman, but my desire is to keep my process simple so that it will not be a hinderance to keeping edges in top shape.

Maintaining my edges has always a 'chore' and we all know what that leads to...bad edges. My question for the group is about stropping. I have read 3 years worth of posts here and know that there are lots of feelings and many techniques, surfaces/leathers, substrates and on and on. I think I will go with horse butt on MDF. One piece face up, one piece suede side up. Likely with compound on one side. Maybe. We'll see...

I don't know if stropping will improve the edge off of the 16000 stone much, but assume it can't hurt. My greater interest is in 'keeping' the edge in good shape as I work. For those that are active stroppers, am I correct that the main benefit is in keeping your edge keen for longer to avoid having to go back to the stones? If so, as you work paring, cleaning mortices, chopping??, etc. how often do you turn and take a few swipes at the strop? The intent is to touch up the edge before any/much deterioration happens at all, correct? Every 2-3 minutes? 10 minutes?

As for planing, irons clearly take less abuse than chisels. How often do you pop out your blade and touch it up?

I really appreciate the input. I'm getting more and more proficient in my hand tool work but my current program really limits the pleasure. I want to make sharpening as much of a part of the flow as possible rather than a chore. I have a surface right behind my bench that will be a full-time sharpening station. For me that will be key. BTW, I'm not a confident free-hand sharpener on the stones. I'll be using the new-ish LV parallel honing guide until I can master free hand. I'm done with my LV MkII honing guide.

Thanks again!

[Jim Koepke]

Steve, why is sharpening such a chore?

In my experience, it takes more time to take a blade out of a plane, put it back and adjust the plane than honing of the blade.

My carving tools may get stropped a few times before honing. My planes and chisels are almost always put to the stones before being stropped.

My waterstones used to get a lot more use. Since acquiring a decent set of Arkansas stones most of my sharpening has been switched to oilstones.

One suggestion if you have a digital camera capable of video. Shoot a session of sharpening a blade by hand. This will let you see if you are keeping the angle constant or if you are rocking the blade.

jtk

[Richard Coers]

I haven't stropped anything in 49 years.

[Jason Buresh]

To answer your question, yes, I have found stropping will freshen up an edge enough to keep using it.

To really answer your question, there are two types of people in the sharpening world. Those who take time to highly polish and edge for maximum edge retention and those who sharpen fast and often. I am in the latter camp. You mentioned a simple setup and I don't think mine can get much simpler. I have a double sided Norton India stone and a piece of leather with green compound. I bought these when I started to get my feet wet and haven't felt a need to upgrade.

I say this because I have never taken the time to highly polish an edge like some here do. I never invested in jigs and glass or diamond stones.

So just because a strop works good on my setup doesn't mean it will help yours. Strops are cheaper than the equipment you are planning to buy, so why not just try one with your setup?

[Ed Mitchell]

I strop somewhere between very often and very, very often.
Strop more so you sharpen less. If it's a small project, I won't sharpen until after the project is done. But I'll strop all the time during the project.
Every minute? maybe? of planing I'll spend 30 seconds stropping. After every few dovetails with a chisel. There's always a good time to take a break -- after you've cleaned up that edge, in between dovetails, whatever -- natural breaks like that won't upset your rhythm. I keep a strop on my bench all the time for this exact reason -- it's right there, so there's no real hassle, it's super quick and super easy.

For me, if getting sharp were a hassle, I wouldn't do it, so don't let it become a hassle by doing the easy work of stropping a lot.

[Kevin Jenness]

Every minute? maybe? of planing I'll spend 30 seconds stropping.

For the highest quality of work you must remove the plane blade and strop it after every shaving, which should be full length, .001" thick and sent home to mother in an ebony box with full-blind dovetailed corners.

[Derek Cohen]

Steve, life will change when you begin hollow grinding. The 180 grit CBN wheel is the way to go.

Sharpening time is in proportion to the amount of steel there is. If there is a minimal amount, such as the edge of a hollow, it will trump even hard steel and slow-cutting stones.

While I do strop, I am not a fan of it as it can be a compromise with plane blades and bench chisels (I am not referring to carving chisels). The time for stropping is when sharpening, when stropping is treated like another stone … so use (for example) green compound scribbled on MDF. Not leather .. leather will round the edge a smidgeon. Then, if you continue stropping, the roundedness gets .. well, rounder. The issue I have with this is that you have a lot more work to do to get the primary bevel sorted before re-sharpening. Sharpening is easy .. re-sharpening is where the money lies.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Buresh]

I strop somewhere between very often and very, very often.
Strop more so you sharpen less. If it's a small project, I won't sharpen until after the project is done. But I'll strop all the time during the project.
Every minute? maybe? of planing I'll spend 30 seconds stropping. After every few dovetails with a chisel. There's always a good time to take a break -- after you've cleaned up that edge, in between dovetails, whatever -- natural breaks like that won't upset your rhythm. I keep a strop on my bench all the time for this exact reason -- it's right there, so there's no real hassle, it's super quick and super easy.

For me, if getting sharp were a hassle, I wouldn't do it, so don't let it become a hassle by doing the easy work of stropping a lot.

I can't tell if you are serious or not. After a minute of planing you take it apart, strop, and then go through the whole setup process again? That sure would upset my rhythm.

Unless there is a way to strop the plane without taking the lever cap off? Do you drag the plane backwards on the strop?

[Luke Dupont]

My sharpening routine as of late is a single stone -- a Vintage Washita, and a bare leather strop.
In the past, I used an India or Arkansas (occasionally both) followed by a loaded strop with green compound.

I'll occasionally go to a loaded strop or a finer stone now, but Washita + Leather seems to be quite sufficient for the vast majority of work that I do, and sharpness past this point does quickly disappear.

Chisels I touch up quite often, sometimes just on leather, and sometimes going briefly back to the stone. As you develop sensitivity, you'll know when it's time for a quick touch up, and the feeling you get from the tool, along with a quick visual inspection of the edge, will tell you whether a quick touch-up on leather is sufficient, or whether the stone is necessary.

I prefer not to touch up too often on a loaded strop before going back to a stone, because over time, you'll create too profound of a microbevel. It's my personal preference not to have a micro bevel. I keep the angle of the cutting edge either flat across the entire bevel, or slightly convex, but consistently convex across the entire bevel with no rounding or microbevel near the edge. This means I never need to regrind, and my tool registers quite nicely when paring bevel down as well. It's also one less thing to think about and muck around with when sharpening.

Basically, I forgo basically every complication you can imagine when sharpening. Free hand. One stone, occasionally two stones. A piece of leather. No complicated microbevels or anything. None of that stuff is wrong, and might be better in some ways and for some folks, but for me, simplicity and reducing the number of steps and complexity, even if it means I spend ever so slightly longer sharpening a tool, saves me time and hassle in the long run, because I don't have to think about anything too hard or get out a bunch of stones or jigs or grinders, etc. Just plop a stone down, a few drops of oil, a minute or so honing and 30 or so strokes on a strop and I'm back to work. If it takes me 3 minutes honing for whatever reason, great. If it takes me 30 seconds and I'm done, also great. I'm done when I'm done. I don't need some complicated method which is theoretically "the best," and I don't feel the need to hold myself to some arbitrary standard like "it should only take you X number of seconds to sharpen a blade and you need some complicated progression and method which is super efficient." Keeping it simple means I don't procrastinate, and not worrying about being ultra hyper efficient means that I just learn and improve my fundamental sharpening skills slowly over time.

Historically, I think a grinding wheel, a single stone, and leather was quite sufficient for the vast majority of wood workers. One day, I'd love to get a grinder and work with hollow ground tools. But it's not essential.

None of this is to say that a more complicated approach to sharpening isn't better or great or whatever. If you have a sharpening station all set up, and you have come to such a progression via experience and find it beneficial, by all means, go for it. But I think beginners often do themselves a disservice by failing to even try the simplest methods first.

[Scott Winners]

I am a not stropper, but am a frequent sharpener.

I started stropping on thick leather, read some of Derek's stuff (see above), stropped on thinner leather, then put some jeweler's rouge on a piece of particle board and then stopped stropping at all.

If you are going to strop, skip the leather and just smear some rouge on a flat piece of MDF.

Remember the end goal is not how sharp your tool is. The goal is the surface of the wood your tool leaves behind. If your finishing process requires your to strop then you should strop. If you are going to paint a thing, a paint with pigment in it, sharpening to 1000 grit and then maybe sanding at 220 will be more than adequate for a good finish. If you are going to French Polish you will need to bring your A game.

FWIW I use a 40 grit Norton stone on my 6" grinder at 25 degrees and then diamond up to 4k grit at 30 degrees. I can get from "Oh crap, this needs the grinder before the stones" back to in service in possibly ten minutes. It helps to have a sharpening area that isn't the bench top.

[Scott Winners]

Also, whenever I start working in a new species I like to start fooling with finishes as soon as I have a couple piece s6s. Some of the folks here have been working in white oak or Jarrah for decades and know what to expect. I am only three years into the hobby, and I don't know what to expect. Going forward I plan to work mostly in Doug Fir, white oak and hickory. Once I have a good feel for them I won't need samples for every project if I am planning to finish the next one in a way I have done before.

A couple (at least) folks here are prefinishing, that is doing all the finish work they can on flat pieces before final assembly so they don't have to deal with slapping finish into inside corners. It is a good idea, but really takes some planning to execute.

[Andrew Seemann]

Stropping for me is touching the edges for a few seconds on the leather wheel on the Tormek with that friable toothpaste they give you with it. I do that after touching up the edge on a 4000 grit Norton water stone (nearly all my blades are hollow ground, so this whole process takes around 40 seconds, anything longer is usually a waste of time and steel). I touch up the edges whenever the performance of the tool starts to pi$$ me off. I redo the hollow grind whenever the amount of time it takes to touch up the edge also starts to pi$$ me off:)

For beginning sharpeners, I don't recommend stropping, especially on plane blades. It is too easy to round the bevel and make the blade worse than before you started. That and though stropping is helpful, it often isn't all that necessary.

If you want simple, here is my process (assuming the backs are already flattened, etc): Hollow grind on the Tormek. Hone freehand with 4000 grit water stone. Quick touch to the strop wheel on the Tormek. Touch ups are just 30 odd seconds freehand on the water stone to clean up the edge then a quick touch on the leather wheel. No messing around with multiple stones (multiple stones just increase the likelihood of rounding over the bevel), sandpaper, lapping compound, or any of that other nonsense. Just 40 seconds and back to work. It takes about as long to pull the blade out and wet the stone:)

[Charles Guest]

Hollow grind, go back to your finest stone for touch ups. A stone will straighten an edge better than a strop will. Otherwise, a strop really doesn't offer much over the very fine grit media available today. I've never used a 16,000 grit Shapton stone like yours, but it's hard to imagine that something that nominally fine leaves rag that needs to be stropped off, or doesn't impart enough polish. I can imagine a scenario where a poorly manufactured stropping compound might even be a step backward in grit.

Since on a day in and day out basis, hollow grinding never goes all the way to the edge (you don't produce a burr at the grinder) I doesn't really seem to matter to me what sort of grindstone you use. There's no sense in using a fine stone, it creates too much heat and you're not producing the edge at the grinder -- only the hollow. I personally wouldn't overspend here. There are plenty of other places to put your money. Leave something in your budget for wood. Using a standard grinder with a basic stone will produce a hollow. All you need is a light touch at the wheel. Let the tool do the work.

[Rob Luter]

I usually sharpen chisels and plane irons on a fine (16K) stone prior to starting a project. Sometimes I do it while wrapping a project up so they're ready for the next job. I've been doing some dovetailing exercises over the last few days and have kept a leather strop charged with green compound on my bench. I've been periodically touching up my chisels with it while chopping/paring waste and it's made a big difference.

[Charles Guest]

I can't tell if you are serious or not. After a minute of planing you take it apart, strop, and then go through the whole setup process again? That sure would upset my rhythm.

Unless there is a way to strop the plane without taking the lever cap off? Do you drag the plane backwards on the strop?

Stropping a plane iron that often is beyond bizarre.

[steven c newman]

Chisels: Strop in use IF they are in need of it....if not, carry on with the task
Planes: IF and only IF needed....and NOT in the middle of a task. 0.00005" thick shavings look nice, good IF you are just showing off on a video...takes way too long to get any task done. After I'm done with a project's use of that plane...THEN I might strop, before the next job/project


Too much time is wasted on getting that "Perfect Edge Grail"...only to ruin it on the very first pass on anything but Balsa Wood....

[Rob Luter]

.....Planes: IF and only IF needed....and NOT in the middle of a task. 0.00005" thick shavings look nice, good IF you are just showing off on a video....

^^ This ^^

I use a plane to reduce wood thickness, true, flatten, and smooth. I gauge how effective the plane is by the resulting wood surface, not the shavings I'm peeling off.

[Christopher Wellington]

In my experience, stropping after a 16,000 grit Shapton stone makes the edge worse, not better. My strop setup is a piece of leather mounted to a wood backer, with green compound.

[mike stenson]

In my experience, stropping after a 16,000 grit Shapton stone makes the edge worse, not better. My strop setup is a piece of leather mounted to a wood backer, with green compound.

I agree, but I've taken to stropping my chisels to keep the edge longer when dovetailing... Before taking a break and going back to the stones. I hadn't stroped in years, until recently.

[Steve Catts]

Very helpful Rob. First-hand stories are really helpful.

[Steve Catts]

Steven, couldn't agree more.

I respect that some of our community have, over time, developed a true, specialized expertise which I totally respect. For some others, it does seem like the sharpening becomes the 'end' rather than a means. I'm just trying to settle on a highly practical and simple approach which will keep me in the wood and finding pleasure in the work. I expect that the old 80/20 rule probably applies with the possible exception of a smoother plane blade maybe needing 90/10!

[Steve Catts]

Christopher, this is helpful.
I have seen posts going for and against stropping after this level of honing. Your point is the primary reason for that part of my question. I expect that one's stropping technique will be part of people's experience. I'll have to give it a shot and been willing to say "naw, not worth it..."

What level of hone grit do you stop prior to using your strop? Or do you just strop to maintain the edge?

[Scott Clausen]

I agree, I am just trying to get a sharp edge that I can use for a task. If I must inspect with a scanning electron microscope to confirm if it is the sharpest on earth, it takes some of the fun out of it.

[steven c newman]

The last grit I use...is 2500 grit....then either the leather strop, or the Unicorn..IF it is out on the bench....a H-f Green Stick is used for either..then back to work.
471182

YMMV...

[Jason Buresh]

Now, I'm not a theoretical physicist or an engineer, but if you could get a perfect edge, where the bevel and the back meet at a molecular level, would that even be a durable edge? I would think if you ground an edge to that fine of a point, the edge would roll or break depending on the temper and type of the steel. After one pass it would still be sharp, but looking under the microscope it wouldn't be a perfect edge anymore.

I'm not pointing fingers or calling anyone out here, I'm just genuinely curious.

[Scott Clausen]

Yeah, the truth lies somewhere in between but this after all, a sharpening thread. It doesn't take long to go off the rails.

[Jim Koepke]

0.00005" thick shavings look nice, good IF you are just showing off on a video...

For me, thin shavings are useful for setting up the lateral adjustment after sharpening a blade. Thin shavings with a properly set lateral adjuster are less likely to leave tracks, even with an uncambered blade.

Though 0.00005" is close to the record in the Kezurou-kai competitions. My best is about five times that thickness.

Another thing to consider, if your plane can not produce a thin shaving, the sole may not be flat. A flat sole may not be important on scrub planes or jointers. For a smoother or block plane it can make all the difference in the world.


In my experience, stropping after a 16,000 grit Shapton stone makes the edge worse, not better. My strop setup is a piece of leather mounted to a wood backer, with green compound.

Found this same edge worsening effect after honing on an 8000 grit Norton stone. Now my stropping is at most two or three strokes to each side after the stones.

The more strokes on the strop, the more likely the edge will become rounded. Though that seems to be the new normal for some with the unicorn method.

Paul Sellers used to teach a method of rounding the bevel. Haven't heard a lot about that lately.

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

Paul Sellers used to teach a method of rounding the bevel. Haven't heard a lot about that lately.

jtk

Ha! When I was first learning I used the rounded bevel method. 50 strokes on the strop with as much pressure as you can. That was bad advice

[Luke Dupont]

For me, thin shavings are useful for setting up the lateral adjustment after sharpening a blade. Thin shavings with a properly set lateral adjuster are less likely to leave tracks, even with an uncambered blade.

Though 0.00005" is close to the record in the Kezurou-kai competitions. My best is about five times that thickness.

Another thing to consider, if your plane can not produce a thin shaving, the sole may not be flat. A flat sole may not be important on scrub planes or jointers. For a smoother or block plane it can make all the difference in the world.



Found this same edge worsening effect after honing on an 8000 grit Norton stone. Now my stropping is at most two or three strokes to each side after the stones.

The more strokes on the strop, the more likely the edge will become rounded. Though that seems to be the new normal for some with the unicorn method.

Paul Sellers used to teach a method of rounding the bevel. Haven't heard a lot about that lately.

jtk


I've used both Paul Seller's method of sharpening a convex bevel, and the traditional Japanese method of just keeping a totally flat bevel all the way to the edge.

As I've done both for years, and still do (simultaneously) I think I can offer a pretty good comparison.

I like Paul Seller's method for Western tools. I wouldn't use it on my Japanese chisels or plane blades though.
It has a few advantages -- it reduces the amount of steel in contact with the stone, and it prevents what I call "sticktion" which is a phenomenon that often happens with sharpening the Japanese way -- dead flat. Basically, sticktion, as I define it, is when two perfectly flat surfaces suspended by oil or water suddenly create suction and the bevel sticks to the stone quite forcefully. This can happen in the middle of sharpening, and generally causes you to dive the edge into the stone, as the bevel gets stuck suddenly while your hands keep going. This, of course, makes for a big mistake that you need to correct.

That "sticktion" happens so consistently for me with the dead flat bevel method that I intentionally put just the ever so slightest bit of camber on the upper part of the bevel on my Japanese tools to prevent it.

Anyway, as for the Paul Sellers method, it works excellently with a strop. The convex nature of the bevel means that it's almost impossible to dub your edge on a strop, unless you're really baring down too hard or have way too soft or thick of a strop. I'm really picky about the angle which my chisels start cutting at when bevel down, and I've never found stropping such a bevel to make any difference in the cutting angle. Stropping a flat or hollow ground bevel can be much more problematic because you're creating a "hard" corner which bears all the pressure, as opposed to a slightly curved surface that evenly contacts with it.

I think where people go wrong with convex bevels is that they don't focus on the maximum angle, and put all the curvature at the tip. That's the opposite of what you want to do. The curvature of the bevel should be consistent throughout the entire bevel, right up to the tip -- no rounding or dubbing at the tip. And you should sharpen "backwards", ie, you pay attention to the "maximum angle" that which defines the cutting edge, and you just end / start each stroke at that angle, dropping down a few degrees, and back up a few degrees. The convexity doesn't need to be super pronounced, just a few degrees even. This frees one up from trying to register really thin plane irons and the like flat against the stone, and is, overall, just really simple and repeatable with very little fuss. No messing around with micro-bevels or fretting over secondary bevels getting too fat, etc.

I have come to like plain leather strops when using finer grit stones, though. You can get a great edge with just an India or Soft Arkansas and a loaded strop, but as you get into finer stones, leather is a better way to refine the edge, as some stropping compound, especially if not clean, can degrade the edge left by a good finishing stone.

Plain leather is also surprisingly capable. A vintage Washita with a plain leather strop, and say, 30-40 strokes on the strop, can give you a surprisingly fine edge. Not quite as good as what you'd get off of a transluscent or something, but approaching it. Some leathers seem to work better than others. One piece of leather gives me a screaming edge on the smooth side. Another, gives an equally good edge on the rough side, but doesn't do as well on the smooth side. And a third piece of leather that I tried actually *dulls* my edges consistently when used on the rough side. All just plain leather. So, some experimentation is in order, and one person's experience may not be true for all.

[James Pallas]

I use a strop. For chisels and carving tools I guess I strop often compared to some. It’s a mindless thing to me, I just pick up the strop and give the tool a few rubs and forget about it. My strop is always out. The second picture shows how I hold it, looking down at it. I couldn’t hold the camera the strop and the tool but you get the idea. I’m looking parallel to the tool edge and the strop so I can see the angle of the tool against the strop. I use green or gold compound on the strop. Either will indeed raise a fine wire edge with light pressure on the tool. Works for me and has for a long time. Plane blades get the stone than a light strop. I like the strop, no water, no oil just sharp. I understand that green compound is about .5 micron but that is if no significance to me, it just works.
Jim