Sawstop ICS Problems and Support

[Bryan Hall]

Disclaimer: I want to be up front with the fact that this is going to be a less than favorable view on Sawstop. However, my intent is not to go ranting on the forums about Sawstop being a terrible company. I have a very significant issue with my brand new saw, and I'm sharing this mainly due to safety concerns. With that, I'll admit I'm frustrated and this write up is also going to reflect some customer service issues I encountered.

Getting machines since covid started has been a nightmare. I think we can all agree to that. I was looking for a sliding table saw when I found myself in a bind and had to make a last minute purchase for a new saw. I called my local vendor who just happened to have a 5hp 52" fence Sawstop ICS on hand that someone backed out on just before they received it. If I wanted it, the delivery could happen immediately. I'm saying this purely to share that this saw was acquired due to an urgent need for work and that I didn't pick the specs at all, it was this, or nothing (I'm a full time owner/operator carpenter and can't be without).

2 main issues with the saw were noticeable early on:

1. The table was out of flat. It was clear during assembly that there was a significant droop in the table on the right infeed side. This made attaching the table extension without a large belly impossible.

2. Kickbacks. I noticed early on that this saw was having kickback issues with the offcuts when I would make bevel cuts. The first few were mild, but the problem seemed to be getting worse quickly, and I started having offcuts violently thrown/lodged into the wall behind me. I intended to contact my vendor and tech support at this point, but I received a package in the mail the next morning that altered the plan.

3. New issue. I received a letter in the mail with two brake cartridges. The summary of the letter was that there appeared to be a problem with ICS saws that had specific serial numbers. The arbor may be faulty and the brake would not work correctly on these saws. Mine may be affected and I needed to stop using the old cartridges immediately. I was instructed to call in if I had an old dado cartridge and that it would be replaced as well. I called the next day.

I'm going to summarize everything in the next few paragraphs, but this all took place over a 2 week period and it resulted in a progressive decline in my trust of Sawstop.

Table Testing: I was asked to test the table for flatness at least 5 times over. Every time I tested the table, it was out by nearly double their tolerance. They asked me to repeat the test over and over again, even getting to a point where they were sending me instructions of how to hold a straightedge and not skew the results. I was even instructed to stop using my woodpeckers straight edges, go to home depot, buy new straight edges with the intent of returning them, and repeat the test. I refused at this point and the technician got angry and yelled at me over the phone that fine, they would accept my measurement and replace the table, but that the labor was my responsibility unless I can prove I am physically incapable of doing the work myself.

Hotdog Testing: To this day, I can rotate the blade with my fingers, and push my fingers into the teeth and shoulders of the teeth as hard as I can without the saw red safety light flashing. If I barely touch the blade with a hotdog, it immediately flashes. If I touch the blade with my fingers, it doesn't flash. No one has been able to explain this to me and it doesn't inspire confidence.

Kickback Testing: I was informed that the white oak I was cutting likely had too much tension in it and was causing the kickbacks. This was all kiln dried and then milled into flooring and sitting indoors in a clients house for about a year. It was 2-4" wide pieces that were no thicker than .75" at any point. I was instructed to use 1/4" plywood to try and recreate the kickbacks to prove that it wasn't the fault of my wood. I again, pointed out that the kickbacks were getting worse and that I was concerned about the safety of trying to intentionally do this. "Leadership wants you to do it, and stand to the side while doing it." On the 8th strip of 1/4" ply with the blade beveled for this experiment I experienced the worst kickback of my life. The cutoff was violently ripped free from the main board just before the cut was complete. This pulled the main board to the right of the blade up onto the riving knife and almost onto the top of the blade. This is the most dangerous thing I've ever done with power tools and it scared the hell out of me.

Saw Health Testing: This is a simple test. You use a stick of wood to turn the blade slowly. The green light is supposed to flash or briefly dim approximately once per rotation. On mine, the red light flashed. I was also asked to do this test repeatedly. The saw failed the same way every time. The first three times I performed this test a tech told me it was strange that the saw was still working despite failing this test. The forth time I performed this test, the tech who yelled at me about the table flatness (you can talk to numerous techs) instantly told me that the arbor and arbor block has to be replaced on my saw. The fifth time I performed this test a different tech told me that this failed test, meant that the original concern about arbor problems was likely the cause of my kickback issues. Essentially, the arbor is wobbling resulting in pinches happening between the table and blade when in a beveled position. It also decreases the quality of any straight cut.

As of this morning my situation is:
The saw cannot be considered safe for use in a beveled position.
The saw should not be trusted for high accuracy straight cuts with the blade at 90 to the table.
Parts are unavailable for the repair right now, but expected by January 15th.
Sawstop initially refused to cover labor for the arbor, arbor block, and table replacement. They have now backed off (my vendor got involved) and agreed to pay for the labor on these repairs.

Summary:
I'm pretty upset that I was treated more like a liar, than a concerned customer through most of the process. I was told several times that I needed to "prove it" because "Sawstop has been burned before" and asked to repeatedly take pictures from different angles to prove I wasn't skewing results or making things up. I don't have any idea what I would have to gain by calling in with a fake claim of kickbacks. I'm also, quite honestly, angry I was instructed to try and cause a kickback when a simple rotation of the blade test would have proved this was a problem, especially since they are in the middle of acknowledging they may have sent out wobbling arbors. Last, IMO it's incredibly important that you take good notes and fill in the tech on the phone every time you call in. Despite many notes on my file now, each tech seemed completely oblivious that tests had already been completed or that there was more than one problem being reported. Even at the end of the two week period, techs were still saying things like "oh that's the first we've heard of this." It seemed like they are trained to quickly direct you to videos to make adjustments yourself, but not necessarily trouble shoot unique scenarios.

So, again, my intent in writing this isn't to openly bash and discredit this company. As far as I know, they have never had an issue like this and my vendor said the same thing. I think the average person, on an average day, would likely have no issues with their saw or their customer service. However, if you find yourself with a serious issue, and the techs are not trained for it, I would strongly encourage you to take notes, stand up for yourself, and refuse to do anything that is unsafe.

[fred everett]

Thanks for posting this. It's unsettling to me as I pick up my PCS next week. Yes, we've come to expect failures and DOA's in everything we purchase these days for obvious reasons. However, the way you were treated is unacceptable! Your restraint is admirable because as soon as the tech yelled at me it would've been game over....I would have contacted/written their highest ranking management and dropped the saw off on vendors doorstep. You should have been sent a new saw on Sawstops dime immediately.

You qualified your post by saying you're giving a "less than favorable" review, or you're not bashing the company. If you are posting facts we need to know about it. Admins can correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the reason this forums exist is for us to share honest experiences. We need to know how products perform and how these companies treat their customers so we can make informed decisions on who we give our business.

I'm about to plunk down over $3k and now worried I'm about buying the PCS. I can also walk away as I've no deposit down with Woodcraft. Woodcraft put my name on the saw and told me if I change my mind just call them. I have to think this trough....

[Larry Frank]

This is really too bad and not like what what has been normal for SawStop. I have had my PCS for a number of years with no issues of any kind. Typically, I have heard very few complaints concerning SawStop. I do not doubt the reported problems but what has changed. I wonder if this has anything to do with SawStop being purchased by another company.

I hope that your problems can be resolved. When a company ships a defective product, I think it is their responsibility to fix it rather than just send me parts and have me fix it.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Brian, I'm sorry you have had this problem (I'm in no way connected with Sawstop by the way).
I would also be irate if I had been treated like you say you were; Yes, I also might have asked for a supervisor.
I wonder if there is a small bit of out-of-alignment issue you are experiencing, as well as some case hardening regarding the kickback.
In my case, I've discovered my almost new Sawstop needs to have adjustments done because the blade is slightly not parallel with the blade. It might be possible the 45 deg. setting is also "out", and these setting adjustments are detailed in the manual.
That does NOT mean everything else about the machine is not EXACTLY like you described.
I've only had one interaction with the company, and I had to email them because they don't have a 1-800 number accessible from Canada.
Please, please report back what happens.

[Brian Runau]

You'll never know, but I wonder if the 1st guy backed out because he got wind of manufacturing problems. Brian

[mreza Salav]

I have had my ICS for over 12 years and have dealt with Sawstop a few times. Their customer service IMO has been up there among the bests (like LV or beyond) and I am not easy to please. I probably have documented a few instances of my interactions with them early on. They are typically knowledgeable and have taken care of me beyond warranty.
Having said that I can feel how irritating your experience has been.
- regarding the table, is it the main table top that is off or an extension wing? and how much off we are talking about? I had to play with one wing to get it perfectly flat at the joint. Cast Iron does bend a bit (it's not as rigid as many think). Clamps and then tightening the bolts helps.

- The kickback you are describing at bevel cuts sounds an out of alignment issue. Sawstop has an excellent set of instructions to adjust the saw and in particular how to adjust it for bevel cuts. Have you gone through those steps? I have taken my saw apart a few times (moving from basement shop....) and put it back and have gone through the adjustment.

- The issue of the blade not detecting your finger: many people don't fully understand how the saw actually detects fingers. The original owner (Gass?) once answered that question on this forum as I had the same experience. The saw has two mechanism for detecting a finger touch, I forgot the terms but if you touch the the tip of the carbides with a (dry?) finger it wont easily detect it. If you touch the side of the blade it detects it but in a different way. To detect your finger touching the tip of the carbide it needs a bit of moist that might not be on the skin but if it breaks the skin it will immediately detect. I had noticed this and it was explained many years ago (should dig to find the thread). So the short answer is almost surely your saw is not faulty. There hasn't been a false-negative regarding sawstops AFAIK.

- Having manufacturing issue with some brakes and asking you to swap them shouldn't shake your confidence in the product or company. The fact that they are pro-active and contact/follow up to remedy this is actually a good sign. I have had one of the original saws that had a different cartridge. They changed their system after a few years later to a more improved one. In a phone call I had with them on a different issue they punched my serial number and noticed it and they offered to me to change the mechanism to the new one and sent me new brake cartridges too (all free of charge!).

I hope you can sort out your issues (perhaps they are not as deep as you might think) and enjoy your saw.

[Christopher Charles]

Brian,

Major bummer to get a lemon, especially when buying under pressure. Also sorry to hear about the less than satisfactory response from SS, though perhaps not surprising given all the strain on everything, including the service sector.

Regardless, I presume you checked the arbor runout and alignment to the miter slot, and alignment of the fence to the blade etc? Sorry if I'm asking an obvious question, but one dope with a forklift can quickly put the alignment of a table saw out of wack regardless of how it left the factory.

Hoping you get it sorted to your satisfaction.

Best,
Chris

[Holmes Anderson]

Bryan, all of these problems apart from the table flatness may be related. As I understand it, the SawStop detection circuit has two stationary plates that are capacitively coupled through the saw blade. The saw blade is electrically isolated from the saw. A signal is transmitted between the plates via the blade with the blade being the DC blocking capacitor in the capacitive coupling circuit. Electrical coupling of the blade with a hot dog or person, among other things, will cause the hot dog or person to become part of the DC blocking capacitor in the circuit and thus change the capacitance, which is detected as a change in the output signal. The capacitive coupling is also a function of the distance between the plates and the blade. There will presumably be a calibration for variations in that distance. The excessive arbor eccentricity of your saw may be causing havoc with that calibration and the sensitivity of the detection system by causing variations in the distance between the plates and blade. Just a WAG.

[Stan Calow]

I've had three occasions to contact SS customer service, and was satisfied 2 out of 3 times. Maybe it exists somewhere of which I am unaware, but a SS owners' forum would be really helpful.

[Jacob Mac]

Can you return it? That would be a real consideration. Even if your business needs a saw, it doesn't sound like sinking a ton of time into this saw is a profitable endeavor.

[Michael Rutman]

Not associated with saw stop (though I do own one) but I have a theory based on a life time of experience with dealing with companies and hopefully my thoughts may help you, or at least explain why some companies do stuff like this.

Your problems are an outlier. I have never seen anyone with a SawStop that bad out of box and I suspect the company is feeling the same. As an outlier they are dubious because they just don’t see these kind of failures. I don’t know that’s true but dealing with companies that make quality products I can tell what is a common and what is a rare problem. If they say, “yep, we know, here’s the replacement part” then it’s common. If it starts with a WTF moment then it’s rare.

That said, I’ve found that enough customers have no clue and a video goes a LONG way. A pleasant attitude of “sure, let me make you a video” can go a long way. For example, when saying, “I laid a flat edge on it” is nowhere near as effective as a video showing 2 straight edges flat against each other, then reversing one to prove the straight edges are flat, then putting it on the table and using a gapper (for measuring spark plugs) to show the exact gap between the table and the straight edge.

If the arbor is wobbly then take a video of a micrometer against the blade and rotate through it. Show on the video how much the wobble is.

Anyway, I feel for you. Good luck.

[Bryan Hall]

To answer a few questions and fill in the blanks:

I did a bunch of tests and measurements to make sure the blade was correctly calibrated. The only thing that was obviously off what the riving knife, it was aligned to the left of the blade, instead of the center/right of the blade like the wanted. The zero clearance plate gives interesting feedback. As the blade is raised and lowered the blade moves left to right. This is part of why accuracy can't be guaranteed. The fence can only be calibrated to a single blade height. It looks like the blade is moving left to right about 1/16th of an inch depending on the height of the blade.

I did send them a bunch of pictures and videos. I got more frustrated when they kept asking for repeat photos and videos from different angles and perspectives. The reason this is frustrating is this: I'm not a fool, and I pointed out a lack of any scientific testing or documentation from the start. I formerly did bridge and dam testing where we used micrometers to test the stresses on steel. When this process with sawstop started I pointed out that they weren't asking for photos or precise measurements, and they told me to not worry about it. When the tests failed, they then wanted more documentation. The test fails again, they want it redone with different photos. The test fails again, they want it done with different tools. The time wasted sitting on hold, repeating tests, uploading photos, writing emails, this is significant. If you want test results that are accurate, start with asking for them in an accurate way. Don't ask the client to repeat the test over and over again with progressively tighter tolerances.

Then, when I'm actually on the phone with a tech and he's asking me to do the table flatness test and give him measurements: I tell him I'm using a .010 (their tolerance) feeler gauge and I can rock the straightedge up and down due to the size of gap. He asks "how big do you think the gap actually is? .012?" I responded that I'll check and get him an exact number. He asks again ".015?" I respond again, just a second I'm going through the feeler gauges. That's when I got yelled at "FINE STOP. JUST STOP I GET IT. STOP THE TEST I'LL GIVE YOU A TABLE." (Diagonally the table is out .019. From left to right it's out .070).

So, SS terminated the test before I could even give the actual numbers. It doesn't add up to me. You want photos of everything, from every angle, multiple times. You want proof of the quality of my measuring tooling. You want proof of how I'm holding the tooling. You want me to replace my measuring tooling with items from home depot. Then, when I've passed through the gauntlet you have a blow up and refuse to get the actual test results?

As far as returning and/or exchanging the tool goes: As best I can tell every new saw is affected by this issue. They have nothing to exchange my saw with. Returning: I haven't asked because I don't have a backup plan. I have a dewalt jobsite saw.... but the idea of building out my work log of 50k in cabinets/builtins on that saw makes me sick.

If the saw still has issues after the repair (not expected) then I think discussing a return is reasonable. I'm not pleased with their CS, but I also want to avoid knee jerk reactions and abandoning all hope. There's a TON of bad manufacturing since COVID hit. I don't want to think this is the new norm, but I am starting to think that's the case.

[mreza Salav]

To answer a few questions and fill in the blanks:

I did a bunch of tests and measurements to make sure the blade was correctly calibrated. The only thing that was obviously off what the riving knife, it was aligned to the left of the blade, instead of the center/right of the blade like the wanted. The zero clearance plate gives interesting feedback. As the blade is raised and lowered the blade moves left to right. This is part of why accuracy can't be guaranteed. The fence can only be calibrated to a single blade height. It looks like the blade is moving left to right about 1/16th of an inch depending on the height of the blade.


Pardon me if this is trivial but how do you measure the blade moves left/right when you raise it? Do you measure with a fixed dial indicator or do you test it against the fence? The laminate face of fence is known to to be not 100% flat. That's the biggest issue I have had with the fence system (others report it too) but the fence itself can be adjusted to satisfaction. If the blade moves left/right with moving up/down that's a very strange case indeed.

[johnny means]

How is the saw the problem when bevel drop offs are being kicked back?

[Alan Schwabacher]

This saw sounds to have so many significant problems you are having trouble getting people to believe it. And it seems pretty clear the various people you have spoken to don't share information. That's not good.

There is no way the blade should move sideways by anything near 1/16" relative to the insert as you raise the blade. That alone would be enough to return it. If it wobbles that much in use, that would explain the kickback, and make the saw unusable.

I would take it back. I can't believe you can't find something that works.

[Alan Schwabacher]

This doesn't sound like other Sawstop saws.

[Bryan Hall]

Pardon me if this is trivial but how do you measure the blade moves left/right when you raise it? Do you measure with a fixed dial indicator or do you test it against the fence? The laminate face of fence is known to to be not 100% flat. That's the biggest issue I have had with the fence system (others report it too) but the fence itself can be adjusted to satisfaction. If the blade moves left/right with moving up/down that's a very strange case indeed.

I haven't tried to measure the total movement in an exact way (I think the dial indicator would work but I don't have one), but if you look at my zero clearance plate it shows bizarre wear patterns. When the blade is all the way up, there are kerf gouges to the left at front and back of blade. When you lower the blade a bit, there are kerf gouges on the right, front and back. Lower it more, kerf gouges on the left again. It goes back and forth with a significant swing.

@johnny means: SS told me that the arbor is likely wobbling bad enough to be causing a pinch against the table when the blade is beveled.

[mreza Salav]

I would get a dial indicator and set the saw up properly and measure arbor run out and other movements you are describing. My arbor run out was between 0.001 and 0.002" as best as I could measure. If you have significant run out the blade would wobble badly. I would check things with different blades btw.
If things are as bad I would return the saw or swap parts if they offer.

[Thomas Wilson]

Bryan, this is every consumer’s nightmare. I hope you can get to a satisfactory resolution. One of the things I notice about technical customer service in general is an assumption that the customer does not know what he is talking about. This is pretty much the starting point for any discussion. You have to prove yourself to them to get them out of their script and actually look for an actual problem with the equipment. I try to ask questions rather than tell them something, “What does this symptom mean? How do I test for that? What does that technical term mean?” The more you get them to talk, the more you will be able to communicate back in their language and jargon. If the person really is over his/her head and simply does not have the information you need, try to ask them to bring another person into the call. Try to get them to use a Zoom video call. Face to face helps to overcome the doubt they might have about the reality of your problem and your ability to convey it accurately.

I have a ICS. It has been trouble-free except for wing flatness. I would suggest a couple of things you can do. First, get a dial indicator. This is very useful for aligning the blade to miter slot and fence to miter slot and riving knife to blade. These tests need the dial indicator to ride in a mount in the miter slot. With a magnetic base that attaches to table, you can also test blade runout which you probably have. There is another test in the manual for blade alignment on pages 51-56 of the owner’s manual. The test requires a dial indicator with magnetic base that slides in the miter slot. The test seems tricky to do but I would investigate this possibility to see if it contributes to the kickback problem.

Good luck on this problem. I will be following your reports.

[fred everett]

To answer a few questions and fill in the blanks:

I did a bunch of tests and measurements to make sure the blade was correctly calibrated. The only thing that was obviously off what the riving knife, it was aligned to the left of the blade, instead of the center/right of the blade like the wanted. The zero clearance plate gives interesting feedback. As the blade is raised and lowered the blade moves left to right. This is part of why accuracy can't be guaranteed. The fence can only be calibrated to a single blade height. It looks like the blade is moving left to right about 1/16th of an inch depending on the height of the blade.

I did send them a bunch of pictures and videos. I got more frustrated when they kept asking for repeat photos and videos from different angles and perspectives. The reason this is frustrating is this: I'm not a fool, and I pointed out a lack of any scientific testing or documentation from the start. I formerly did bridge and dam testing where we used micrometers to test the stresses on steel. When this process with sawstop started I pointed out that they weren't asking for photos or precise measurements, and they told me to not worry about it. When the tests failed, they then wanted more documentation. The test fails again, they want it redone with different photos. The test fails again, they want it done with different tools. The time wasted sitting on hold, repeating tests, uploading photos, writing emails, this is significant. If you want test results that are accurate, start with asking for them in an accurate way. Don't ask the client to repeat the test over and over again with progressively tighter tolerances.

Then, when I'm actually on the phone with a tech and he's asking me to do the table flatness test and give him measurements: I tell him I'm using a .010 (their tolerance) feeler gauge and I can rock the straightedge up and down due to the size of gap. He asks "how big do you think the gap actually is? .012?" I responded that I'll check and get him an exact number. He asks again ".015?" I respond again, just a second I'm going through the feeler gauges. That's when I got yelled at "FINE STOP. JUST STOP I GET IT. STOP THE TEST I'LL GIVE YOU A TABLE." (Diagonally the table is out .019. From left to right it's out .070).

So, SS terminated the test before I could even give the actual numbers. It doesn't add up to me. You want photos of everything, from every angle, multiple times. You want proof of the quality of my measuring tooling. You want proof of how I'm holding the tooling. You want me to replace my measuring tooling with items from home depot. Then, when I've passed through the gauntlet you have a blow up and refuse to get the actual test results?

As far as returning and/or exchanging the tool goes: As best I can tell every new saw is affected by this issue. They have nothing to exchange my saw with. Returning: I haven't asked because I don't have a backup plan. I have a dewalt jobsite saw.... but the idea of building out my work log of 50k in cabinets/builtins on that saw makes me sick.

If the saw still has issues after the repair (not expected) then I think discussing a return is reasonable. I'm not pleased with their CS, but I also want to avoid knee jerk reactions and abandoning all hope. There's a TON of bad manufacturing since COVID hit. I don't want to think this is the new norm, but I am starting to think that's the case.

Maybe it IS an outlier, or a Covid manufacturing issue but a protocol should be in place that qualifies each warranty event...it's not rocket science. With all the great things I've read about Sawstop I would think they'd offer an apology an expedite the parts you need.

Defects are going to happen as perfection is unachievable. However, even if they've sold a million saws, and yours is the first with issues, yelling at a customer is unacceptable.....I'm having trouble getting by that.

I need to buy a new saw, but I'm not running a business. That said, I'm back to considering other options because even as a hobbyist I can't afford to make a $3k mistake. It stinks that you have to go through all this.

[Bryan Hall]

Update:

I had no idea it was coming but sawstop must have overnighted it. I just received what looks to be a complete arbor block to replace my bad one. I also received a new zero clearance insert to replaced the existing damaged one. No paperwork of any sort. Just a box with parts.

[mreza Salav]

I must have (printed) detailed instruction on how to change the arbor block. If you need I'll have to dig it up and scan it for you. Let me know.

[Bryan Hall]

My vendor is going to take care of all the repairs. They'll replace both the tabletop and the arbor block, and then they'll fully calibrate the saw.

[Thomas Wilson]

My vendor is going to take care of all the repairs. They'll replace both the tabletop and the arbor block, and then they'll fully calibrate the saw.
Sounds like an complete reversal of your earlier experience. Good for SawStop. Hope you are up and running soon..

[fred everett]

Update:

I had no idea it was coming but sawstop must have overnighted it. I just received what looks to be a complete arbor block to replace my bad one. I also received a new zero clearance insert to replaced the existing damaged one. No paperwork of any sort. Just a box with parts.


My vendor is going to take care of all the repairs. They'll replace both the tabletop and the arbor block, and then they'll fully calibrate the saw.

That's great news. Hopefully you're back in business quickly.

[Bryan Hall]

Table top is the mystery delivery date. They think it will be at sawstop on the 15th, then overnighted to the vendor, then setup the repair day. So, hopefully full strength by the 3rd week of January?

[fred everett]

Table top is the mystery delivery date. They think it will be at sawstop on the 15th, then overnighted to the vendor, then setup the repair day. So, hopefully full strength by the 3rd week of January?

Hopefully it's an under promise/over deliver situation and things happen quicker for you. It sounds like your vendor has treated you well.

I've contemplated my purchase for so long I'm tired of thinking about it lol

[Ronald Blue]

Glad things are moving in a hopefully positive direction. Hopefully the issues are soon resolved. I'm curious how you tune up the saw as far as getting the miter slot parallel to the blade without a dial indicator? You could do it with feeler gages but it would be a challenge and take a while.

[Jerome Stanek]

I have had my ICS for over 12 years and have dealt with Sawstop a few times. Their customer service IMO has been up there among the bests (like LV or beyond) and I am not easy to please. I probably have documented a few instances of my interactions with them early on. They are typically knowledgeable and have taken care of me beyond warranty.
Having said that I can feel how irritating your experience has been.
- regarding the table, is it the main table top that is off or an extension wing? and how much off we are talking about? I had to play with one wing to get it perfectly flat at the joint. Cast Iron does bend a bit (it's not as rigid as many think). Clamps and then tightening the bolts helps.

- The kickback you are describing at bevel cuts sounds an out of alignment issue. Sawstop has an excellent set of instructions to adjust the saw and in particular how to adjust it for bevel cuts. Have you gone through those steps? I have taken my saw apart a few times (moving from basement shop....) and put it back and have gone through the adjustment.

- The issue of the blade not detecting your finger: many people don't fully understand how the saw actually detects fingers. The original owner (Gass?) once answered that question on this forum as I had the same experience. The saw has two mechanism for detecting a finger touch, I forgot the terms but if you touch the the tip of the carbides with a (dry?) finger it wont easily detect it. If you touch the side of the blade it detects it but in a different way. To detect your finger touching the tip of the carbide it needs a bit of moist that might not be on the skin but if it breaks the skin it will immediately detect. I had noticed this and it was explained many years ago (should dig to find the thread). So the short answer is almost surely your saw is not faulty. There hasn't been a false-negative regarding sawstops AFAIK.

- Having manufacturing issue with some brakes and asking you to swap them shouldn't shake your confidence in the product or company. The fact that they are pro-active and contact/follow up to remedy this is actually a good sign. I have had one of the original saws that had a different cartridge. They changed their system after a few years later to a more improved one. In a phone call I had with them on a different issue they punched my serial number and noticed it and they offered to me to change the mechanism to the new one and sent me new brake cartridges too (all free of charge!).

I hope you can sort out your issues (perhaps they are not as deep as you might think) and enjoy your saw.

You got your saw back when Sawstop was its own company. now you deal with a different company

[Mitch schiffer]

It may be somewhat associated to covid or labor shortages. I bought a saw stop this year I had several issues with cut quality. I initially regretted buying it but I kept it since I did cut a finger on my previous table saw about 5 years ago. I did end up getting the issues with mine figured out. Fortunately for me no parts were needed. I spent a entire day getting the saw adjusted. There was really no single thing I didn't have to adjust.
One of the most frustrating adjustments is the riving knife adjustment. There is really not a good way to adjust it the holes are oversized and its not indexed by anything. The table in relation to the blade was also off. While the bolts are hard to get at to adjust this I found it easier but a little more time consuming then the riving knife. I did adjust the French as well but that was very easy. In the end im happy with my sawstop. The only complaints I still have are with a dado blade I have to lock the blade height or it will slowly lower on me. The same issues applies when having the blade at a bevel from about 25 to 35 degrees this will also move if not locked. My other complaint is the arbor is not long enough to use the factory washer with a 3/4 dado stack.

[Ray Newman]

Mitch Schiffer: I run a 3HP SawStop ICS and following the SawStop Facebook page. The page moderator, a SawStop employee, often stated the washer is not needed for the wide/wider dado stack. Others also reported that customer service told them the same.

As for the dado lowering, I think it is the nature of the beast. I ran a 3HP Uni-saw for 30 years, and experienced the same, esp. when using a wide stack and/or hard/difficult wood. I just got in the habit of tightening down all blades on the old Uni-saw and now on the SawStop. I have no doubt that utilizing a dado stack --esp a wide set up -- and cutting full or deep depth creates a good deal of vibration.

What model SawStop do you have?

[Bryan Hall]

It may be somewhat associated to covid or labor shortages. I bought a saw stop this year I had several issues with cut quality. I initially regretted buying it but I kept it since I did cut a finger on my previous table saw about 5 years ago. I did end up getting the issues with mine figured out. Fortunately for me no parts were needed. I spent a entire day getting the saw adjusted. There was really no single thing I didn't have to adjust.
One of the most frustrating adjustments is the riving knife adjustment. There is really not a good way to adjust it the holes are oversized and its not indexed by anything. The table in relation to the blade was also off. While the bolts are hard to get at to adjust this I found it easier but a little more time consuming then the riving knife. I did adjust the French as well but that was very easy. In the end im happy with my sawstop. The only complaints I still have are with a dado blade I have to lock the blade height or it will slowly lower on me. The same issues applies when having the blade at a bevel from about 25 to 35 degrees this will also move if not locked. My other complaint is the arbor is not long enough to use the factory washer with a 3/4 dado stack.

I hadn't looked at this yet but:

You're correct, the washer wont work. However, there's a tiny blurb in the manual that says if you are using a dado stack that is 3/8 or larger, to just skip the washer. That being said, even without the washer, the arbor on mine won't fully thread the factory nut when I'm at 3/4 for the dado stack.

[Bryan Hall]

again, in response to the earlier comment about dado issues with sawstop: I came across this other thread where someone had their dado stack come loose on their new sawstop. They said they were told that heavier dado stacks aren't suitable? https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/threads/cranking-down-arbor-nuts.226845/

I'll give my vendor a call tomorrow, its creepy to me seeing a full dado stack with no arbor threads sticking out past the nut.

[Donald G. Burns]

My vendor is going to take care of all the repairs. They'll replace both the tabletop and the arbor block, and then they'll fully calibrate the saw.


Need or no need it sounds like you aren't able to produce the output you need to produce. I was wondering why the local vendor wasn't dealing with SS and also why the saw wasn't back at their store. I would expect a vendor to also stand behind a product they sold. If someone is injured they'll also be in the following lawsuit. So CYA would lead me to think it would be in everyone's best interest to solve this problem before the lawyers get involved. Glad to hear they are stand up and helping solve the issues.

[mreza Salav]

again, in response to the earlier comment about dado issues with sawstop: I came across this other thread where someone had their dado stack come loose on their new sawstop. They said they were told that heavier dado stacks aren't suitable? https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/threads/cranking-down-arbor-nuts.226845/

I'll give my vendor a call tomorrow, its creepy to me seeing a full dado stack with no arbor threads sticking out past the nut.

All saws of this size I have seen don't use the blade washer when using a full stacked dado and there is no point having extra threads past nut. That dose nothing. Dado blade coming loose is very rare and can happen on any saw with multiple start/stop of the stacked dado blade. This can happen particularly if the blade has a sudden stop (like a motor brake). Otherwise, the rotation of the blade (while cutting) should tighten the blade in place. SS doesn't allow using anything larger than 8' dado blades and also those with full chippers due to the mass of the blade.

[Jack Frederick]

In my business career I was a Manuf Rep in the HVAC/P&H industry. Companies get ranked not only on the products they offer, but the manner in which they support their products. I always told my customers to politely ask the name of the tech with whom they were dealing. That way if things go sideways on a call you can pin the tail on the donkey. Doing phone tech is a difficult job and sometimes the frustration with a difficult customer spills over onto the next call(s). My experience with SS Tech has been very good, but my issues were light weight compared to this. The issue of getting the “basic info” on each call can drive you nuts, but dealing with a different tech each time puts that tech in a position where they have to certify the basic info. Again, frustrating, but they cannot see what you are seeing and they don’t or can’t take the nitwit at the next desks analysis. Also, if an issue is not handled on the vary first call or if the issue is of some significance it is always advisable to request/demand a CASE NUMBER. Given what you have been through on this I think it is time to draw the line with SS and demand “the solution.” Barring that coming through I’d have that thing on a truck back to my dealer with a song in my heart and a smile on my face.

[Bryan Hall]

Just to be clear, the arbor doesn't extend past the nut at all. In all my life no one has ever tried to tell me that having a nut that doesn't fully seat on a bolt is okay.

[mike stenson]

It's really the number of threads engaged that matters, but I get it. Then again, I'm not a huge fan of dado blades anyway so it would really bug me.

[fred everett]

In my business career I was a Manuf Rep in the HVAC/P&H industry. Companies get ranked not only on the products they offer, but the manner in which they support their products. I always told my customers to politely ask the name of the tech with whom they were dealing. That way if things go sideways on a call you can pin the tail on the donkey. Doing phone tech is a difficult job and sometimes the frustration with a difficult customer spills over onto the next call(s). My experience with SS Tech has been very good, but my issues were light weight compared to this. The issue of getting the “basic info” on each call can drive you nuts, but dealing with a different tech each time puts that tech in a position where they have to certify the basic info. Again, frustrating, but they cannot see what you are seeing and they don’t or can’t take the nitwit at the next desks analysis. Also, if an issue is not handled on the vary first call or if the issue is of some significance it is always advisable to request/demand a CASE NUMBER. Given what you have been through on this I think it is time to draw the line with SS and demand “the solution.” Barring that coming through I’d have that thing on a truck back to my dealer with a song in my heart and a smile on my face.

Some great points. Coming through the ranks of corp IT, I did 2nd level phone support. Calls are challenging....."is it plugged in" was a field 1st level were required fill out b4 they could escalate.....basic SOP using case management software. Calls were also recorded....get "terse" with a customer you're in the director's office. Yell at a customer, security escorted you out. SS should be doing all that IMO....it's basic stuff. Considering the SS website states "It makes sense that each one of our team members would want to ensure you are thrilled with your saw." It doesn't take rocket science to make that happen....it's culture. IMO SS support made several mis-steps with the OP. It sounds like the OP runs a business....support should have known their audience. Okay, they require multiple tests for spec which I get it, but under no circumstances should the OP have been yelled at.

...and here I sit due to pick up my $3k SS PCS tomorrow.

[Bryan Hall]

Got off the phone with my vendor again today. Sawstop is closed, again, but I wanted to get on the schedule for the arbor replacement. "Sawstop hasn't authorized the repair." Clear communication is obviously lacking here. I don't understand why they told me they were setting up the repair with the vendor, but they also didn't authorize any part of the repair at all.

Vendor also let me know they can't accept a return without a 25% restocking fee unless sawstop wants to buy it back. I'm so over it at this point. I wish I had gone with another brand. Will have to get this fixed and then sell it myself, and then buy the machine I wanted.

[Bryan Hall]

Here's the pic of the arbor and nut, full stack, tight.

[Clark Hussey]

Here's the pic of the arbor and nut, full stack, tight.

That’s what mine looks like. Have never had an issue.

[Bryan Hall]

That’s what mine looks like. Have never had an issue.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

[Frank Pratt]

Here's the pic of the arbor and nut, full stack, tight.

That's exactly how it should look. As per the manual, leave off the outer washer when using a full width dado. That's pretty standard with just about any table saw.

[fred everett]

Got off the phone with my vendor again today. Sawstop is closed, again, but I wanted to get on the schedule for the arbor replacement. "Sawstop hasn't authorized the repair." Clear communication is obviously lacking here. I don't understand why they told me they were setting up the repair with the vendor, but they also didn't authorize any part of the repair at all.

Vendor also let me know they can't accept a return without a 25% restocking fee unless sawstop wants to buy it back. I'm so over it at this point. I wish I had gone with another brand. Will have to get this fixed and then sell it myself, and then buy the machine I wanted.

This is unfortunate after what you've been through. Maybe this won't affect the overall timeline on when you expected to be up and running.


Here's the pic of the arbor and nut, full stack, tight.

Maybe I'm paranoid but I wouldn't run that.

[Bryan Hall]

This is unfortunate after what you've been through. Maybe this won't affect the overall timeline on when you expected to be up and running.



Maybe I'm paranoid but I wouldn't run that.

It is what it is I guess. I'm just too exhausted to keep playing the game. Totally worn down and I'm at over $5000 in losses at work now so I'm better off just getting back to trying to get an order in for the saw I wanted. Once the sawstop is repaired I'll hopefully be able to sell it without too much trouble.

As far as the arbor threads and the nut hanging off them: Sounds like Frank and Clark do it no problem. Not having the nut on all the way, too scary for me. Can't do it.

[mreza Salav]

Just to have some comparison...

470988

[Thomas Wilson]

Got off the phone with my vendor again today. Sawstop is closed, again, but I wanted to get on the schedule for the arbor replacement. "Sawstop hasn't authorized the repair." Clear communication is obviously lacking here. I don't understand why they told me they were setting up the repair with the vendor, but they also didn't authorize any part of the repair at all.

Vendor also let me know they can't accept a return without a 25% restocking fee unless sawstop wants to buy it back. I'm so over it at this point. I wish I had gone with another brand. Will have to get this fixed and then sell it myself, and then buy the machine I wanted.

Your problem was escalated very quickly, then the NYE holiday happened. Not everyone was kept on board with decisions and resolutions because it bypassed normal warranty procedures. You should just wait until SawStop is available to respond and clear up the repair authorization issue with the vendor. Just guessing here but it sounds like SawStop expected your vendor to provide the repair but did not make clear to the vendor that SawStop would reimburse for labor. Vendor does not want to get stuck with the labor and travel time costs. SawStop may be actually trying to push the repair labor cost onto the vendor. The vendor is seeing this coming and is putting some friction in the response to you so as not to set a de facto policy that they do not want to support in the future. Warranties typically do not cover every customer expense. For example, the consumer frequently has to pay shipping back to manufacturer and wait until it is received and diagnosed with no compensation for consequential damages like lost time or lost sales. This is unfortunate for buyer but that is the way warranties work.

There are some legal points that you would need to know about in the UCC Article 2 regarding implied warranty for merchantability and fitness for use that might help you if you pursue return and full refund. The vendor may not be able legally to refuse to take the saw back if you can show it is ‘not fit’ for the purpose it was sold for. In this case, the fitness for use is a fairly technical point that a woodworker would understand but that not average Joe or Joan who heard it would. The standard for fitness is pretty lax, “fair”, “ordinary”, or “average” fitness for use of table saw, not the exceptional high quality that SawStop is known for. In court, you would have to have expert witnesses and a solid presentation. You already have some facts in your favor. SawStop has determined that your saw was in a group with manufacturing defects and were committed to repairing it under warranty and SawStop’s assessment over the phone (you will need to have the call tape at least) says that your saw needs a replacement arbor. You are obligated to give the seller an opportunity to “make it right”, in this case reasonable time and access to diagnose and fix the problem before they have to accept the return and refund. I can tell you are frustrated already but I would not think you have yet met your legal requirement to give the seller a chance.

How much would it cost in legal fees to force the return? More than the 25% restocking fee for sure. The vendor would wind up paying similar or a bit more for his legal fees. You don’t want go to court. You just want the vendor to know you know the commercial code and are willing to stand your ground. It establishes that you know your legal rights. Neither side would normally be able to recover fees from the other.

My advice, buy the saw you want now. Keep your workflow moving. That is your priority. Put the SawStop as far out of your mind as you can. Call SawStop everyday for a week for updates, then every other day for two weeks, then every week for a month. Put the SawStop on the market as soon as it is fixed and be done with it. Once you have crossed this Rubicon, you have no obligation or incentive to protect the reputation of the vendor. Publishing their name here or elsewhere would be fair in my view.

[John Lifer]

How did you pay for the saw? Cash, check? or a CC? If CC, I would be putting in a complaint with the CC company. Yeah, might be premature, but I think some pressure from that direction might get your full money back

[Jerome Stanek]

Got off the phone with my vendor again today. Sawstop is closed, again, but I wanted to get on the schedule for the arbor replacement. "Sawstop hasn't authorized the repair." Clear communication is obviously lacking here. I don't understand why they told me they were setting up the repair with the vendor, but they also didn't authorize any part of the repair at all.

Vendor also let me know they can't accept a return without a 25% restocking fee unless sawstop wants to buy it back. I'm so over it at this point. I wish I had gone with another brand. Will have to get this fixed and then sell it myself, and then buy the machine I wanted.

Why would there be a restocking fee if the saw is defective. Did they offer a loaner saw until your saw is fixed.

[Roger Feeley]

Bryan,
I had a problem with the Bosch Glide. My wife got me one for Christmas and, while setting it up I noticed a defect. I went back and forth with Bosch (who were great) and the replacement saw had the same problem. It so happened that the Woodworking Show came to town and Bosch had one of their techs bring two Glides to my house. So now I had four saws. All four saws had the same problem. The tech took them all and Bosch issued a refund.

Maybe SS will have a rep or something in town. It really helped my case when the Bosch guy got involved.

My story had a happy ending. My wife felt bad that I didn’t get the aglide so she bought me a SS ICS that has been great. I love my wife.

[Frank Pratt]

Maybe I'm paranoid but I wouldn't run that.

Why are people so hesitant to follow advice given by those who design and build the machines? Is there some vast reservoir of hidden knowledge that had been tapped by some?

[mike stenson]

Why are people so hesitant to follow advice given by those who design and build the machines? Is there some vast reservoir of hidden knowledge that had been tapped by some?

You can ask this same question about so many things. I'm sure that other engineers are frequently tired of having laymen know more about their products than they do.

[Bryan Hall]

You can ask this same question about so many things. I'm sure that other engineers are frequently tired of having laymen know more about their products than they do.

Can you guys point out where this advice is coming from? I can't find anything in the manual that says the nut doesn't fully seat on the arbor. I also can't find any resource anywhere on the web that says the nut doesn't fully thread onto the arbor.

I can, however, find photos and information on woodworking sides that say the nut should be fully threaded. I can also find specs based on the thread per inch about how far the arbor is supposed to stick out past the end of the nut. I can also find report of an accident just a few months ago with the arbor nut coming off on a dado stack for this companies saw. So I think it's pretty healthy to question the situation, especially on a saw that the manufacturer already admits the arbor and arbor block are defective.

I've looked for several days on this. If you can find and share the information that the engineers are sharing, by all means please post it.

[Bryan Hall]

Why would there be a restocking fee if the saw is defective. Did they offer a loaner saw until your saw is fixed.

Vendor has stated that Sawstop froze their entire inventory and took most of their saws back to the factory because every one of them is defective. So, they don't have a loaner saw to give.

[mike stenson]

Vendor has stated that Sawstop froze their entire inventory and took most of their saws back to the factory because every one of them is defective. So, they don't have a loaner saw to give.

Well, this explains a lot.

[Kevin Jenness]

What a mess. I imagine Sawstop will eventually make good but that doesn't help the interruption of your business. Given that you lack a tablesaw and your 1st choice (slider?) is not readily available, maybe you can pick up a used cabinet saw on Craigslist for temporary use and sell it when things get sorted out. Far from ideal but maybe it would allow you to get some work out the door. How about ths one? https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/d/portland-martin-sliding-table-saw/7425973485.html Good luck.

[Brian Tymchak]

Vendor has stated that Sawstop froze their entire inventory and took most of their saws back to the factory because every one of them is defective. So, they don't have a loaner saw to give.

Odd that this isn't more widely known. I can't find any info on the web about a sawstop defect.

[Bryan Hall]

Odd that this isn't more widely known. I can't find any info on the web about a sawstop defect.

They aren't openly sharing the info as far as I know. My vendor has been asking ME to give them info on what is wrong with my saw, so that they can figure out what is wrong with their saws. Sawstop hasn't been sharing details with them and this defect is less than 1 month into being acknowledged.

[Frank Pratt]

Can you guys point out where this advice is coming from? I can't find anything in the manual that says the nut doesn't fully seat on the arbor. I also can't find any resource anywhere on the web that says the nut doesn't fully thread onto the arbor.

They state that a 3/4" dado set can be used by leaving out the outer washer. From that one can safely deduce that the nut will be sufficiently threaded on to work safely. Manufacturers spend a great deal on legal & will include extra verbiage at every opportunity. I see this as a case of the intent being so obvious that further explanation is not required.

[Bryan Hall]

They state that a 3/4" dado set can be used by leaving out the outer washer. From that one can safely deduce that the nut will be sufficiently threaded on to work safely. Manufacturers spend a great deal on legal & will include extra verbiage at every opportunity. I see this as a case of the intent being so obvious that further explanation is not required.

After additional calls to the vendor and the SS techs yesterday and today: Neither will say that it's safe, both said it's concerning, and SS has told me they will have to get back to me with more info as to whether I can use the full stack or not.

Will let you know when I hear back from SS with more info.

[Frank Pratt]

Vendor has stated that Sawstop froze their entire inventory and took most of their saws back to the factory because every one of them is defective. So, they don't have a loaner saw to give.

I just did a check with 4 SawStop dealers here & all models are readily available, or within a day or two shipping. Some of the parts & accessories are out of stock though. It sounds like you're being strung along, possibly.

[Frank Pratt]

After additional calls to the vendor and the SS techs yesterday and today: Neither will say that it's safe, both said it's concerning, and SS has told me they will have to get back to me with more info as to whether I can use the full stack or not.

Will let you know when I hear back from SS with more info.

To quote from page 12 of the manual:

"Never stack dado blades thicker than 13/16". In case further explanation is needed, that means that the nut is on far enough as long as the dado stack is no more than 13/16" thick. That's just about exactly what a 3/4" dado with a bunch of shims measures at.

And from page 18:

"For dado widths larger than about 3/16", remove the arbor washer and tighten the arbor nut against the dado set."

This isn't that complicated folks. It took me all of about 30 seconds to download the manual & search it for "dado". Personally, I'll take what's printed in the manual & has made is past who knows how many engineers & lawyers.

Please don't take my comments as a blanket endorsement of SawStop's wonderfulness. Full disclosure; I have a PCS & like it a lot & have no complaints at all. But since I bought it, the company has been bought by Festool & I have had no interactions with them since then & can't comment on the current quality of customer service.

[Bryan Hall]

To quote from page 12 of the manual:

"Never stack dado blades thicker than 13/16". In case further explanation is needed, that means that the nut is on far enough as long as the dado stack is no more than 13/16" thick. That's just about exactly what a 3/4" dado with a bunch of shims measures at.

And from page 18:

"For dado widths larger than about 3/16", remove the arbor washer and tighten the arbor nut against the dado set."

This isn't that complicated folks. It took me all of about 30 seconds to download the manual & search it for "dado". Personally, I'll take what's printed in the manual & has made is past who knows how many engineers & lawyers.

Please don't take my comments as a blanket endorsement of SawStop's wonderfulness. Full disclosure; I have a PCS & like it a lot & have no complaints at all. But since I bought it, the company has been bought by Festool & I have had no interactions with them since then & can't comment on the current quality of customer service.

I think the point I'm focused on, and you are skipping over, is how seated the arbor nut is supposed to be. I read the manual and searched for dado just as you did. I found the same exact thing about the washer, but there is no comment on the nut and it's threads. No mention of the nut not fully threading onto the arbor. I completely understand you are comfortable making that leap in assessment, but I'm not. I have a saw that clearly has issues, is getting the arbor, block, and table replaced.

Is it not reasonable to question the possibility that something that looks safe, might be unsafe? Especially with someone reporting an accident 5 months ago doing the exact thing we are discussing and both the vendor and SS techs expressing concern about the safety of the tool?

[Frank Pratt]

I think the point I'm focused on, and you are skipping over, is how seated the arbor nut is supposed to be. I read the manual and searched for dado just as you did. I found the same exact thing about the washer, but there is no comment on the nut and it's threads. No mention of the nut not fully threading onto the arbor. I completely understand you are comfortable making that leap in assessment, but I'm not. I have a saw that clearly has issues, is getting the arbor, block, and table replaced.

Is it not reasonable to question the possibility that something that looks safe, might be unsafe? Especially with someone reporting an accident 5 months ago doing the exact thing we are discussing and both the vendor and SS techs expressing concern about the safety of the tool?

There doesn't need to be any comment on the nut or threads. They already said that if you drop the washer & the dado is no more than 13/16" thick, your good to go (read: there are enough threads engaged between the nut & arbor).

Every table saw I've owned or used a dado on has the same directive; remove the washer for wide dado cuts. If you have your doubts, use some red Locktite on your arbor nut. It'll make it hell to change the blade out, but you can be comfortable knowing that the nut will never spin off.

[Ray Newman]

Bryan Hall: do you have a link about this accident involving SawStop and a dao set?

I tried Google and DuckDuckGo search engines and nothing came up about an accident involving a dado stack.

[Bryan Hall]

Bryan Hall: do you have a link about this accident involving SawStop and a dao set?

I tried Google and DuckDuckGo search engines and nothing came up about an accident involving a dado stack.

I posted the link a few days ago, but sometimes the splitting of the threads on this forum causes me to miss peoples comments so you may have missed it.

https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/threads/cranking-down-arbor-nuts.226845/

3 separate people reported 4 different occasions where the arbor nut came loose when using the dado stack. The one guy who had it happen twice, was the OP and was using a sawstop saw. Another reported it on a laguna saw, and the last didn't mention their saw.

One person did call in and talk with sawstop about the situation. They posted about certain dado stacks having too much mass, and that you need to seek a lighter dado stack with SS and the tech recommended using a dewalt dado stack.

Let me know what you think about that thread?

[mreza Salav]

The picture I posted earlier shows that the arbor threaded parts on all these cabinet saws is about the same. So this "issue" you are concerned about is not unique to Sawstop. You probably are better off not getting a cabinet saw and get a slider as you wanted, otherwise you setup yourself for another disappointment.
A nut on a dado set (on any cabinet saw) can come loose if the motor comes to an abrupt stop (or if this happens too many times). This is rare but as others have said can happen, and is unlikely to have anything to do with the brake system on the saw.

[Frank Pratt]

I don't know why manufacturers don't give a torque figure for the arbor nut. An experienced person has no trouble tightening the nut enough so it won't loosen, yet not damage the threads. But there are enough that don't have that knowledge or experience (with sometimes disastrous results) and it would be a service to them to give more guidance.

[Jim Becker]

But since I bought it, the company has been bought by Festool & I have had no interactions with them since then & can't comment on the current quality of customer service.

Minor correction...SawStop was bought by the same parent company that owns Festool, Tanos, Narex, Shaper Origin, etc. (43 companies total) TTS Tooltechnic Systems is a holding company.
-----

For the record, the situation that the OP is facing is very concerning. And the vendor wanting to take a restocking fee on a defective machine is unfathomable.

[Frank Pratt]

Minor correction...SawStop was bought by the same parent company that owns Festool, Tanos, Narex, Shaper Origin, etc. (43 companies total) TTS Tooltechnic Systems is a holding company.
-----

For the record, the situation that the OP is facing is very concerning. And the vendor wanting to take a restocking fee on a defective machine is unfathomable.

Right you are, my bad.

Me thinks there's something fishy going on with the vendor & they're only concern is not having to deal with an unhappy customer. As I said, the story about every SawStop in the world having to be recalled to the factory has a real smell to it. My experience with SawStop's CS is that they would normally have had replacement parts shipped out the next day.

[Jason Lester]

For the dado stack, my understanding is to use the style where the chippers are the long ovals with only two teeth. I use the DeWalt model and position the chippers so they are balanced. No issues with mine at least. On mine set for 3/4, the arbor is dead even with the nut when tightened down. With the huge number of Sawstop saws in use, I can't imagine it being a common problem or there would be lots of threads on it.

You want to talk scary, try a stack with full chippers on a Bosch 3100 jobsite saw! I tried it once and then trashed the dado set.

All the other concerns you raised would definitely bother me too and need to be resolved by Sawstop and/or your reseller. I had a brake trip for no reason once and they took care of it quickly. The saw wasn't even running, but main power was on. It was really hot from ripping a bunch of really hard 8/4 ash. I touched the blade and the brake tripped and scared the crap out of me. No damage to the blade at all since it wasn't spinning. I think it was some weird static discharge or something.

Jason

[Bryan Hall]

Minor correction...SawStop was bought by the same parent company that owns Festool, Tanos, Narex, Shaper Origin, etc. (43 companies total) TTS Tooltechnic Systems is a holding company.
-----

For the record, the situation that the OP is facing is very concerning. And the vendor wanting to take a restocking fee on a defective machine is unfathomable.

and I have to correct myself here. The vendor didn't offer to take it back at 25% restocking fee. They offered to take it back on consignment. They'd sell it for whatever they could get, and keep 25% for themselves.

Which is even worse.

[Kevin Jenness]

Right you are, my bad.

Me thinks there's something fishy going on with the vendor & they're only concern is not having to deal with an unhappy customer. As I said, the story about every SawStop in the world having to be recalled to the factory has a real smell to it. My experience with SawStop's CS is that they would normally have had replacement parts shipped out the next day.

To be fair, the first post on this thread was 12/30; on 12/31 Bryan had a new arbor block in hand. The vendor's behavior sounds sketchy and the CS interaction almost as bad, but the option is there to put the part in and get back to work while awaiting a new top. I understand the reluctance to get in between the dealer and Sawstop or to put any work into a lemon. Still, the Sawstop warranty extends only to parts.

If SawStop determines the saw is defective in material or workmanship, and not due to misuse, abuse, negligence, accidents, normal wear-and-tear, unauthorized repair or alteration, or lack of maintenance, then SawStop will, at its expense, and upon proof of purchase, send replacement parts to the original retail purchaser necessary to cure the defect.

[fred everett]

Why are people so hesitant to follow advice given by those who design and build the machines? Is there some vast reservoir of hidden knowledge that had been tapped by some?

Clever. I going to go high road though...

[Jim Becker]

and I have to correct myself here. The vendor didn't offer to take it back at 25% restocking fee. They offered to take it back on consignment. They'd sell it for whatever they could get, and keep 25% for themselves.

Which is even worse.
Wow...just wow...

[Robert Engel]

If the arbor rotation is opposite of the threads, how can a nut come loose other than a sudden braking or stopping of the blade?

I've heard this before and simply can't see how it can happen.

All I ever do is snug the arbor nut, I never crank down really hard, in 40 years of ww'ing I've never had a nut come loose or a blade stop spinning.

[mike stenson]

I'm going to guess, that like my old unisaw, your saw has no blade brake.

[Ray Newman]

Bryan Hall: thanks for the link about the dado accident.

[David Utterback]

Do the kickback pieces showed any sign of burning. I had a similar problem on a PM66 that Glenn Bradley helped me correct. The problem was that the plane of the table caused the back of the blade during bevel cuts to be higher than the front of the blade. In other words, it was an uphill ramp from front to back. This was not a problem when cutting at 90 degrees but when tilted, the blade was pinching the wood and cutting it shorter than the front of the blade. If this does not make sense, I can provide additional details. Maybe the SS setup checks this possible alignment issue. The new arbor and table top may correct the problem. Good luck!

[Bryan Hall]

Do the kickback pieces showed any sign of burning. I had a similar problem on a PM66 that Glenn Bradley helped me correct. The problem was that the plane of the table caused the back of the blade during bevel cuts to be higher than the front of the blade. In other words, it was an uphill ramp from front to back. This was not a problem when cutting at 90 degrees but when tilted, the blade was pinching the wood and cutting it shorter than the front of the blade. If this does not make sense, I can provide additional details. Maybe the SS setup checks this possible alignment issue. The new arbor and table top may correct the problem. Good luck!

There's a belly at the outfeed side of the center of the table. IMO, it's not enough to cause an issue at 90, but yes, with arbor wobbly and a slope at 45 I think it makes sense that it's enough to cause an issue!

[Rod Wolfy]

If the arbor rotation is opposite of the threads, how can a nut come loose other than a sudden braking or stopping of the blade?

I've heard this before and simply can't see how it can happen.

All I ever do is snug the arbor nut, I never crank down really hard, in 40 years of ww'ing I've never had a nut come loose or a blade stop spinning.

That's what I was wondering about, too.

Brian, who is your local vendor that you are dealing with?

[Bryan Hall]

So I did hear back on a few things:

1. Sawstop tech did verify that the dado stack is good to go, despite not having the nut fully threaded.

2. I did get word from both sawstop, and the vendor, that the repairs are authorized and will be taken care of.

I'll check back in after the repairs are done, but there's still no date set for the work since the table is yet to be delivered.

Last, since the vendor was so opposed to a return, I asked sawstop about it. I was told, under no circumstance will sawstop accept a return. "Logistically, it's not feasible for us to accept the return of a saw that has been assembled. People love these saws."

I thought the people love these saws was an interesting thing to throw in with the same comment? I think everyone is uncomfortable being asked for a return right now. I can also say that SS is the only company that's ever told me they would never accept a return. Perhaps someone else here has returned one? Maybe that's a new policy? It makes sense that the vendor was so standoffish when I brought it up now that I know this. If they can't return it either, then they are stuck with it as a used saw. Still, I think a refund should have been offered, but it sheds a bit more light on the process. I can also say, with the way manufacturing is now, I would have had a hard time buying knowing that there is absolutely no returns allowed.

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm surprised that SS authorized the vendor to repair the saw given the warranty terms. Maybe that is as far as they will go in lieu of a return. I hope it works out in the end.

If SawStop determines the saw is defective in material or workmanship, and not due to misuse, abuse, negligence, accidents, normal wear-and-tear, unauthorized repair or alteration, or lack of maintenance, then SawStop will, at its expense, and upon proof of purchase, send replacement parts to the original retail purchaser necessary to cure the defect.

[Jerome Stanek]

I'm surprised that SS authorized the vendor to repair the saw given the warranty terms. Maybe that is as far as they will go in lieu of a return. I hope it works out in the end.

If SawStop determines the saw is defective in material or workmanship, and not due to misuse, abuse, negligence, accidents, normal wear-and-tear, unauthorized repair or alteration, or lack of maintenance, then SawStop will, at its expense, and upon proof of purchase, send replacement parts to the original retail purchaser necessary to cure the defect.



I wonder why I would have to fix a problem that Sawstop caused. Does a car manufacturer send you parts to repair a problem that is under warranty. Do they reimburse you for your time to do the repairs. Sat a compressor goes needs warranty work do they just send out a new compressor for you to install.

[Kevin Jenness]

I wonder why I would have to fix a problem that Sawstop caused. Does a car manufacturer send you parts to repair a problem that is under warranty. Do they reimburse you for your time to do the repairs. Sat a compressor goes needs warranty work do they just send out a new compressor for you to install.

I know what you mean, but if you buy a Sawstop that is what they undertake to do in case of problems. I guess they can get away with that because "People love these saws" or they don't read the fine print. Warranty terms vary. Caveat emptor.

I am accustomed to repairing and adjusting machines as I have only two in my shop bought new. If the op's dealer were not local and he was relying on them to do the repair he'd have to ship or schlep the machine a distance, wait for them to get around to it and ship it back. He's already had the new arbor for a week and is still in limbo. If I were in his shoes I would be very unhappy with the situation, but I would take the new parts, install them, get back to work, then order the saw I wanted in the first place, sell the Sawstop when it came in and move on.

[mike stenson]

I'd hate to have to pack up a cabinet saw and return it, to effect a repair. That would suck, especially since I'd have to remove much more than just the saw from my shop to get it out. Contrast to a vehicle, which by nature is mobile and capable of being driven to the dealer.

[Jerome Stanek]

I'd hate to have to pack up a cabinet saw and return it, to effect a repair. That would suck, especially since I'd have to remove much more than just the saw from my shop to get it out. Contrast to a vehicle, which by nature is mobile and capable of being driven to the dealer.

Would you pack up a refrigerator why can't they send out someone to fix it

[mike stenson]

Would you pack up a refrigerator why can't they send out someone to fix it

I would not. But the terms of the warranty don't suggest that I have to repair my refrigerator.

[Bryan Hall]

I think it's just an example of the assumptions we make when looking at documents and with customer service in general. It's like the arbor/dado issue that another user felt like it was okay to make the assumption that the nut not being fully threaded was okay, but I wasn't I looked at that from a very literal standpoint.

For the warranty, I guess in my mind I wouldn't even consider this a warranty issue. I think of warranties as protection against breakdown over time. I don't consider them as protection against defective from day 1 issues. ESPECIALLY, if the defective element is related to your safety mechanism which is the #1 selling point and cause of cost for your machine. So, I made the assumption in my mind that if the saw is defective upon delivery, that it would be handled no question. Especially since they have a reputation of "best saw made and best customer service of any company" according to several different vendors.

Sawstop is just across town and my vendor is just a few minutes up the road. I try to buy local so that I have easier access to support if the need arises.

SS did also say that they use my vendor a lot for repairs and that they do good work. I didn't get clarification on whether or not SS paid for the work to be done though.

Vendor said that powermatic has more issues now, but traditionally powermatic would cover labor costs for sending techs to the next state over for repairs. Quite the contrast to SS.

[mike stenson]

Unfortunately DOA components are IME fairly common. In any case, my opinion of the manufacturer has taken a significant down turn due to the handling of this mess. I don't use my table saw often, but had been contemplating updating it due to the safety technology.. but at this point I'll just wait, or just not bother.

[Kevin Jenness]

For reference, here are a couple of threads relating to warranties and customer service.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235588-What-is-your-experience-with-quot-euro-machine-quot-customer-service
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?260297-Terrible-Powermatic-Customer-Service
Lower your expectations and you won't be disappointed.

[mike stenson]

For reference, here are a couple of threads relating to warranties and customer service. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235588-What-is-your-experience-with-quot-euro-machine-quot-customer-service https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?260297-Terrible-Powermatic-Customer-Service Lower your expectations and you won't be disappointed.

It's interesting that the proposed solution is to simply accept less. I guess it's like anything else these days, poor quality is the goal

[Kevin Jenness]

It's interesting that the proposed solution is to simply accept less. I guess it's like anything else these days, poor quality is the goal

It's not my goal. I'm just saying don't expect to get something you weren't promised. If you aren't getting the specified warranty coverage and service, insist on it and buck it up the chain until you get it. In this case, assuming Bryan's vendor actually does the work of replacing and calibrating the new parts at no charge they are exceeding what the warranty appears to cover. I hope it works out and the bad taste doesn't linger.

[mike stenson]

It's not my goal. I'm just saying don't expect to get something you weren't promised. If you aren't getting the specified warranty coverage and service, insist on it and buck it up the chain until you get it. In this case, assuming Bryan's vendor actually does the work of replacing and calibrating the new parts they are exceeding what the warranty appears to cover. I hope it works out and the bad taste doesn't linger.

Not suggesting it's yours Kevin. It's clearly the goal of companies in general. Unfortunately, consumers happily accept it.

[Michael Drew]

With respect to the arbor nut engagement/seating, the general rule of thumb is to have 1.5 threads showing, after final torque. This rule of thumb, at least in my professional word, applies to fasteners in general. My background is maintenance, specifically as a millwright and rotating machinery specialist in the oil/gas and power generation industries. I would not feel comfortable with an arbor nut fully seated onto the side of a spinning blade that did not have, at minimum, half a thread proud of the nut. The washer aids in blade stability for a cleaner cut, so I’m less concerned about not using one from a safety perspective, but I’d prefer to use it if possible. Sucks to hear about the customer service issues. I’ve heard great things about SS customer service, so this story is a bit concerning, but these things do happen. Hopefully, SS will step up and get this resolved. If you had a YouTube channel with a few thousand followers, you’d get some good support……. Seems like that’s the new norm nowadays. Post a video and complain, get new stuff….

A thought for the table flatness issue.... It would have a cost, but you could always reach out to a local machine shop and ask if they have a Faro arm or table. You could have them scan the saw's table and give you the CAD file (or PDF) to send to SS. These machines use a lazor to provide accuracy to the tenths (0.0001"). The argument would be over real quick.

[Jim Becker]

For the warranty, I guess in my mind I wouldn't even consider this a warranty issue. I think of warranties as protection against breakdown over time. I don't consider them as protection against defective from day 1 issues. .

Actually, the very definition of a warranty is to cover the buyer from defects in parts and workmanship for a particular period of time. So if the unit is "all fouled up" from the time of recept, that's definitely a warranty issue, although for many things, a vendor or manufacturer will replace for that kind of situation. I can see the business reasoning for effecting repairs for large machines as the practicality of returns/shipping is what it is, but one should not have to jump through flaming hoops to get what they paid for. That's why I remain sad about your situation, even if they do make good at this point. There should not have been a delay putting a plan in place, even if it was necessary to wait for a replacement part to be available.

[Dick Strauss]

A warranty is meant to assure you the product will last a specified length of time without issue, otherwise the manufacturer will fix the issue.

With previous Grizzly prices (prior to all of the increases), it was kind of expected that the customer might have to do some QA because of the lower price. With a SS at full price, asking the customer to fix a SS QA issue is definitely unacceptable.

Get your credit card company involved to put pressure on the vendor. If the vendor gets a charge back, they will be very motivated to fix the issue at any cost less than the total purchase price.

[Ronald Blue]

So where are you on this dilemma at this time? Has SawStop or your vendor gotten your issues resolved yet?

[Bryan Hall]

So where are you on this dilemma at this time? Has SawStop or your vendor gotten your issues resolved yet?

I'm dead in the water at the moment. Sawstop told me the replacement table would be in last week for sure, and overnighted to me. Haven't heard anything from them and still no table. Vendor won't help. Have unfortunately reached out to my credit card company and they are investigating the issue to see if they can force a return. Not the way I hoped it would all go down for sure.

[Ronald Blue]

I'm dead in the water at the moment. Sawstop told me the replacement table would be in last week for sure, and overnighted to me. Haven't heard anything from them and still no table. Vendor won't help. Have unfortunately reached out to my credit card company and they are investigating the issue to see if they can force a return. Not the way I hoped it would all go down for sure.

That's unfortunate. Hopefully the credit card company can assist. Sounds like a vendor you will avoid going forward.

[fred everett]

I'm dead in the water at the moment. Sawstop told me the replacement table would be in last week for sure, and overnighted to me. Haven't heard anything from them and still no table. Vendor won't help. Have unfortunately reached out to my credit card company and they are investigating the issue to see if they can force a return. Not the way I hoped it would all go down for sure.

Using nice words, this is unfortunate. Hopefully the investigation will put you in the drivers seat regarding next steps.

[Bryan Hall]

Using nice words, this is unfortunate. Hopefully the investigation will put you in the drivers seat regarding next steps.

Agreed.

I heard from the CC company today (my local little credit union). Funds will be provisionally returned to my account within 10 days but the issue will remain open for 60 days.

Essentially the vendor has to show proof that they sold me the saw with a no returns policy. I'm not sure how they could possibly do that, I didn't even get a receipt until the day the machine was delivered.

It's a bad spot to be in. The vendor will be notified, which of course isn't going to make them happy. So now, the issue goes to either a forced return, or a forced repair. It's uncomfortable all around. Add to that, it puts me in an unsure place of should I order a new saw, or not... I suppose the right answer is get over it and order the new saw, but it will be a little less than exciting to try and sell a new 5hp ICS with extra brakes, power cord, woodpeckers attachments, etc. I kind of assume I'll know more in a few days.

[Alan Lightstone]

My experience with CC companies and these kind of issues is that they always side with the consumer. They typically instantly remove the funds from the vendor's account and credit your account pending further responses from the vendor, which usually don't help their case.

You're probably in pretty good shape there. My hunch is that they will force the vendor to take the saw back and issue a refund.

[Frank Pratt]

Agreed.

I heard from the CC company today (my local little credit union). Funds will be provisionally returned to my account within 10 days but the issue will remain open for 60 days.

Essentially the vendor has to show proof that they sold me the saw with a no returns policy. I'm not sure how they could possibly do that, I didn't even get a receipt until the day the machine was delivered.

It's a bad spot to be in. The vendor will be notified, which of course isn't going to make them happy. So now, the issue goes to either a forced return, or a forced repair. It's uncomfortable all around. Add to that, it puts me in an unsure place of should I order a new saw, or not... I suppose the right answer is get over it and order the new saw, but it will be a little less than exciting to try and sell a new 5hp ICS with extra brakes, power cord, woodpeckers attachments, etc. I kind of assume I'll know more in a few days.

I sure hope they get this settled quickly. The vendor sounds like a real turd. Besides providing crappy customer service, they've actually lied to you. SawStop has dropped the ball pretty badly as well. Have you tried escalating to a manager with SawStop? I guess that's a moot point by now.

The thing is, SawStop has always had such a solid reputation for great customer service. They have been bought out by Festool's parent company and they too have very good customer service. Kind of odd.

[fred everett]

Alan may be correct based on my experience with a cruise line that refused a refund. I was issued a full refund within a week after my CC co investigated. That's not 1:1 as it was for a service, but there must be a good reason your CC co provided a conditional refund.

[Bryan Hall]

Alan may be correct based on my experience with a cruise line that refused a refund. I was issued a full refund within a week after my CC co investigated. That's not 1:1 as it was for a service, but there must be a good reason your CC co provided a conditional refund.

Sure enough, the funds were back in my account within the day. I really expected a call from the vendor over the last few days but haven't heard a word from them or sawstop. We'll see where it stands at the end of next week?

[fred everett]

Sure enough, the funds were back in my account within the day. I really expected a call from the vendor over the last few days but haven't heard a word from them or sawstop. We'll see where it stands at the end of next week?

Glad to hear this Bryan. Hopefully you'll be able to get your hands on a a new saw quickly.

[Jim Becker]

I'm sure that the chargeback, when it hits them visibly, will get some kind of reaction! I think you did the correct thing there. At the least, it makes for more pressure on the vendor to get SS to either deal with the issue expeditiously or to permit the return of the defective tool.

[Bryan Hall]

Another update:

Still no word from the vendor.

I decided to call in today to figure out what is going on at Sawstop. I asked about the new table that was supposed to have arrived 2 weeks ago and get shipped overnight to me. It never showed up, something about a virus causing shipping delays? Who knew...

Sawstop told me this morning the saw should be completely replaced. It's just too long of a wait for a new table to come in. Then they called me later in the day and let me know that they can't get a replacement saw in stock until mid february, which is when the replacement table is now scheduled to show up. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be grateful, or irritated. I asked repeatedly about the likelihood of the table showing up on time and was assured repeatedly it would arrive by January 15th at the absolute latest. Now, I'd have to agree to wait several more weeks for items to show up, plus the shipping time, plus down time to replace the saw and/or table, the process seems unreliable.

Credit card investigation is still underway but since the vendor shows nothing about no returns on their website or the receipt it doesn't seem to bode well for them.

[Charles Coolidge]

I asked about the new table that was supposed to have arrived 2 weeks ago and get shipped overnight to me. It never showed up

No ship date is worth the paper its written on right now. My Powermatic bandsaw, drill press, planer all delayed months. Replacement table for the bandsaw supposedly shipped air freight to arrive in a week yeah, months.

Too bad about your Sawstop experience. Sawstop is about 30 miles from my house so my ICS 5hp was all local. I purchased it via a local store Woodcrafters (not to be confused with Woodcraft). Had it in 3 weeks with free delivery from the store. No issues at all. Woodcrafters has stacks of PCS in stock and all manner of every Sawstop accessory but they don't normally stock the ICS. When nobody else had Sawstop stuff in stock, they had piles of it.

[Bryan Hall]

You must be in Portland too then? I didn't get mine from Woodcrafters, but I did buy mine locally. Less than 10 minutes from my front door. I like woodcrafters a lot, but they were telling me 4-6 weeks for the ICS. I ended up snagging one that was 1 week out but now, 3 months later, I wish I had the time to have waited on an order.

[Rod Wolfy]

Another update:

Still no word from the vendor.

I decided to call in today to figure out what is going on at Sawstop. I asked about the new table that was supposed to have arrived 2 weeks ago and get shipped overnight to me. It never showed up, something about a virus causing shipping delays? Who knew...

Sawstop told me this morning the saw should be completely replaced. It's just too long of a wait for a new table to come in. Then they called me later in the day and let me know that they can't get a replacement saw in stock until mid february, which is when the replacement table is now scheduled to show up. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be grateful, or irritated. I asked repeatedly about the likelihood of the table showing up on time and was assured repeatedly it would arrive by January 15th at the absolute latest. Now, I'd have to agree to wait several more weeks for items to show up, plus the shipping time, plus down time to replace the saw and/or table, the process seems unreliable.

Credit card investigation is still underway but since the vendor shows nothing about no returns on their website or the receipt it doesn't seem to bode well for them.


With all the worldwide delays, I can understand they might not have any in stock. There have been a lot of reports about quality control issues in a lot of industries, too. Workers here this week and out next. My Hammer took over a year to get to me after I paid for the down payment. Sorry about your trouble, Bryan.

[Charles Coolidge]

You must be in Portland too then? I didn't get mine from Woodcrafters, but I did buy mine locally. Less than 10 minutes from my front door. I like woodcrafters a lot, but they were telling me 4-6 weeks for the ICS. I ended up snagging one that was 1 week out but now, 3 months later, I wish I had the time to have waited on an order.

Yes purchased mine at Woodcrafters in Portland. They hauled it way up north of Battle Ground, WA to my house for free, that's a 1 hour round trip. I got mine April 30th, 2021. ICS 5hp 36".

[Bryan Hall]

Well, the saga comes to its conclusion.

Sawstop did offer to send their "next available saw" over for a swap, but wanted me to pay for it up front and then I'd get a refund after returning the bad one. This baffled me. I haven't done many warranty claims in my time, but I wouldn't expect to be charged up front for the replacement. That being said, it never made it that far. The credit card company charge back was processed last Thursday and just shy of one week from them sending notification to the vendor I got the call. "Bryan, we just got notified that you filed a dispute over this saw. Why didn't you say anything?" Well, I did... many times... and you told me no returns... only a consignment sale where you keep 25%. "Oh okay well we'll come and get the saw right away."

Crazy.

Timing couldn't have worked out better. I'm building a detached office and then restoring a 1905 ceiling with T&G so I won't need a saw for a few weeks. I'm glad I got the replacement on order, expected to be here end of month.

Thanks for the support to everyone who chimed in! I never would have considered contacting the credit card company. I had no clue how powerful that was when it comes to dealing with problems. Obviously a last resort, but it seemed like an undeniable power play when it happened. Hoping the new saw is problem free!

[Brian Tymchak]

Well, the saga comes to its conclusion.

Sawstop did offer to send their "next available saw" over for a swap, but wanted me to pay for it up front and then I'd get a refund after returning the bad one. This baffled me. I haven't done many warranty claims in my time, but I wouldn't expect to be charged up front for the replacement. That being said, it never made it that far. The credit card company charge back was processed last Thursday and just shy of one week from them sending notification to the vendor I got the call. "Bryan, we just got notified that you filed a dispute over this saw. Why didn't you say anything?" Well, I did... many times... and you told me no returns... only a consignment sale where you keep 25%. "Oh okay well we'll come and get the saw right away."

Good to hear that things are working out. ...I'd be finding a different tool vendor...

[Frederick Skelly]

Good for you! I hope the replacement is everything the original was SUPPOSED to be. Please llet us know.

[Alan Lightstone]

Thrilled that you're getting a replacement. As we said, it's amazing what a dispute with the credit card company will do. Unfortunately I've had to do it a few times, but resolution has been 100% in my favor, from unreasonable merchants.

You will love the SawStop. I love my ICS. Big step up from their contractors saw (which was still quite nice, but... )
Shame it took all this to get one. Please let us know when it arrives and is set up and working.

And yes, find another tool vendor.

[Jim Dwight]

I am glad this got resolved too and that you have been able to carry on without a table saw for months now. I have gone to my credit card company a few times and always been pleased with the result. I get better service from Discover than Master Card so that is what I try to remember to use if I am at all concerned about the supplier. From Master Card the results are the same but they are not quite as nice about it.

For those making "vendor" comments I would suggest you remember that Festool owns SawStop. If you really want away from the vendor you have to drop Festool too.

I am not trying to downplay the significance of a significant breakdown on SawStop's part here but I think this was a bad saw that somehow got out and then some techs trying to deal with it that did not know what to do. It was beyond what they really could handle. Certainly not the customers fault. But I question whether it is a sign that Festool/SawStop is a bad company to do business with. I have issues with the original owner of SawStop and how he chose to "market" his invention but I like my saw and my very limited dealings with this company have been fine. SawStop's support of this customer was clearly unacceptable but I'm willing to hope this type of issue is very rare.

I also hope there is some gesture on SawStop's part to try at least in some small way to "make it right". The OP might want to make them aware there are a bunch of us watching.

[Jim Becker]

'Glad you got this resolved and that the timing for the new saw works out. And a lot of folks tend to overlook the power that credit card issuers have...they make a lot of money from folks using their cards and like them to keep their card vs getting a different one. Backing them up when there's an issue with a product or vendor is one way they do that.

[Brian Tymchak]

For those making "vendor" comments I would suggest you remember that Festool owns SawStop. If you really want away from the vendor you have to drop Festool too.


Sorry for the confusion. My vendor comment was referring to the business that sold the gear to Bryan, not the manufacturer.

[Charles Coolidge]

Sawstop did offer to send their "next available saw" over for a swap, but wanted me to pay for it up front and then I'd get a refund after returning the bad one.

LMAO yeah WRONG! Instead, I'll take ALL my money back now and you come fetch your DEFECT product and you eat it! Nicely done Bryan (applause)

[Alan Lightstone]

Sorry for the confusion. My vendor comment was referring to the business that sold the gear to Bryan, not the manufacturer.

As was mine.

[Thomas Pender]

This is one of the most informative threads I have ever read - almost a comedy of errors by Sawstop and your Vendor. I hope it turns out whew can all recall the lessons learned, chief among them being use the credit card as a weapon and never pay for anything except with a credit card.

One thing that surprises me is that someone at Sawstop didn’t pick up the negativity that was being generated on our site - Sawmill Creek, to put it mildly, is about the best site there is for woodworkers of all kinds. For example, we all know Grizzly’s boss either follows or has someone follow this site and he reacts. In terms of negative publicity, Sawstop should have shipped a new saw or gotten a serious manager involved.

In truth, my own Sawstop (3hp PCS with 52” table) has been a joy. I find it cuts better glue edges using my Tenryu blade than I can get with my Grizzly 8” helical jointer (which is a disappointment - I went through some difficulty with them getting the fence mechanism fixed, but they sent the parts that seem to have done the trick). If I had to speculate, I would say the problems they were faced with here were so unusual Sawstop did not know how to behave - not an excuse BTW. Regardless, I would have elevated beyond the tech who treated me with so little respect. As for them not taking the saw back, that is pure nonsense. Legally, a buyer relies upon the saw working when delivered and if it does not the bargain is over. That is the attitude of the credit card companies for sure. The vendor got your money for a working product, not a non-working product, regardless of any arguments under the UCC, for detrimental reliance is the stronger doctrine, especially when something falls to function right out of the box. No silly restocking fees, etc. I hope all of us will be willing to hold vendors and manufacturers to providing working products and not accept excuses. Otherwise, we will see less quality over time.

[Bryan Hall]

Truly a comedy of errors.

For those wishing me the best with my new ICS.... that day will not come. I can see the value of the safety mechanism. I liked the table size and the overall build. I can tell why people advocate for sawstop. Unfortunately, I asked plain and simple "can you guarantee the replacement saw will not have the same arbor problem?" They told me flat out, no, they are unsure if the arbor coming on the new saw would have to be replaced. There's just no way I can go down this road again, I've been working off my dewalt jobsite saw which I must say, truly rose to the occasion! It's old, and it's motor really shuddered trying to stand in for a 5hp cabinet saw. However, this is business and the time to remedy the situation was unforgivable, especially since they have told me that I might simply be hitting the reset button with fixing another saw that they would deliver.

My new (non-sawstop) saw should be here by the end of the month. Once I have it up and running I'll be sure to write up a full review on it.

[Charles Coolidge]

No silly restocking fees, etc.

Restocking fees, no returns and other made up terms retailers try to hoist onto the customer are not worth the paper they are written on. Most states have an implied warranty for merchantability law. This guarantees that a product will work as expected or you can return it for a full refund. In some states like my state even the often abused "as is" clause is not legal and does not override the legal implied warranty of merchantability. Knowing your rights as a consumer comes in handy.

[fred everett]

So glad it worked out for you Bryan. You never should have been treated that way.

Interesting story: On Tuesday I dropped a Ramelson gouge bending the tip. They're listed as RC 60 hardness so I thought why would it bend. I sent Ramelson an email honestly explaining I dropped it and asking if it SHOULD have bent. Same day their president responded, "I am so sorry that happened and NO it should not have bent. It's a bad temper on our part. Please send me the tool number so I can send you a replacement" I received the replacement today. Yes it's a $30 chisel, but chisels are they're thing. If table saws are your thing, your customers should be treated the same. Ramelson gets it!

[Bob Falk]

I have had my ICS for over 12 years and have dealt with Sawstop a few times. Their customer service IMO has been up there among the bests (like LV or beyond) and I am not easy to please. I probably have documented a few instances of my interactions with them early on. They are typically knowledgeable and have taken care of me beyond warranty.
Having said that I can feel how irritating your experience has been.
- regarding the table, is it the main table top that is off or an extension wing? and how much off we are talking about? I had to play with one wing to get it perfectly flat at the joint. Cast Iron does bend a bit (it's not as rigid as many think). Clamps and then tightening the bolts helps.

- The kickback you are describing at bevel cuts sounds an out of alignment issue. Sawstop has an excellent set of instructions to adjust the saw and in particular how to adjust it for bevel cuts. Have you gone through those steps? I have taken my saw apart a few times (moving from basement shop....) and put it back and have gone through the adjustment.

- The issue of the blade not detecting your finger: many people don't fully understand how the saw actually detects fingers. The original owner (Gass?) once answered that question on this forum as I had the same experience. The saw has two mechanism for detecting a finger touch, I forgot the terms but if you touch the the tip of the carbides with a (dry?) finger it wont easily detect it. If you touch the side of the blade it detects it but in a different way. To detect your finger touching the tip of the carbide it needs a bit of moist that might not be on the skin but if it breaks the skin it will immediately detect. I had noticed this and it was explained many years ago (should dig to find the thread). So the short answer is almost surely your saw is not faulty. There hasn't been a false-negative regarding sawstops AFAIK.

- Having manufacturing issue with some brakes and asking you to swap them shouldn't shake your confidence in the product or company. The fact that they are pro-active and contact/follow up to remedy this is actually a good sign. I have had one of the original saws that had a different cartridge. They changed their system after a few years later to a more improved one. In a phone call I had with them on a different issue they punched my serial number and noticed it and they offered to me to change the mechanism to the new one and sent me new brake cartridges too (all free of charge!).

I hope you can sort out your issues (perhaps they are not as deep as you might think) and enjoy your saw.

Interesting that SS replaced your cartridge mechanism with a new one. I also have an original ICS.....perhaps I should call them. I am guessing they would like to eliminate stocking the old cartridges.