What am I missing? 12" Jointers

[Joseph Sorrentino]

Hi all,

I'm in the market for a jointer and doing all the normal research (and more). What I can't get my head around is that it seems a good 12" combo machine (jointer+planer) is under $5k, whereas all the brands that offer a combo machine also have a 12" standalone jointer that costs more money (almost all are more than $5k).

Why does a standalone 12" jointer cost more than a 12" jointer/planer combo?

Thanks,
Joey

[David Publicover]

Hi Jody,
Welcome!
I have a 12” combo machine and would say the difference would be in the overall size of the machines. The dedicated 12” jointer is going to have much longer tables and would be able to handle much longer board lengths than my combo.
David

[Scott Bernstein]

Agreed. However some combo machines, like Felder or Hammer, have the ability to add extension tables in order to increase the capacity. I have had great success with the extension tables on my Hammer A3 16" combo machine. Clearly, a dedicated jointer with extremely long, fixed cast iron tables is ideal, but these take up an awful lot of space.

[Kevin Jenness]

Maybe you are paying for the convenience of not having to use a combination machine ;)

[glenn bradley]

Welcome! You ask a good question in "what am I missing?". I have found that when I run into something that just doesn't seem to make sense, I am usually missing something. Not always but, that's another discussion :D. A combo machine certainly allows you to put more functionality into a smaller foot print than dedicated machines. This is a convenience and can supply the desired functions for many with limited space for a workshop that would not allow them the placement of dedicated machines.

To get the functionality into a smaller package there are compromises. Products in the Hammer/Felder tier have been combination machines for many years, are of a very good quality and priced accordingly. Even at that tier you can see the difference in form of a combination machine versus a dedicated machine that performs one of the combined functions.

If you are looking at 12" jointers you may be doing larger work as a regular part of your shop time. I would guess you have a shop scaled to do these things. If that is so I would recommend dedicated machines that are fully focused on their function. If you have larger material to prepare and are space constrained (most of us are or were or will be again :)) a combination machine can make that happen.

I would be very unhappy with a 12" planer although I made do with one for many years and could work around things again if I needed to. Similar to the difference (for me) between a 6" and an 8" jointer; that seemingly incremental step in capacity completely changes the machines usability for me. I only run a 15" planer. I have a 13" but it just collects dust right no. It's just a couple of inches but for what I do the 8" jointer and the 15" planer hit the sweet spot for functionality.

In the end it all comes down to what will work for you and your situation. Currently cars make a bad analogy but I (old-think) think of it as the price of a four door truck versus a dedicated car and a dedicated truck.

[Erik Loza]

....Why does a standalone 12" jointer cost more than a 12" jointer/planer combo?..

Joey, the primary reason is economy of scale in manufacturing. Jointer/planers are a European thing that was well established over there before becoming popular here. For that reason, much of the Austrian/Italian/Belgian/etc. was already geared for manufacturing the combined units before they even made it to the US. For example, a Hammer A3-41A jointer is the exact same machine as the A3-41 jointer/planer, minus the planer table and transmission. From a manufacturing standpoint, it costs almost as much to build the jointer-only as the combined machine. I hope this helps clarify,

Erik

[Randy Heinemann]

For one thing, 12" jointer/planers I've seen have much shorter beds than most stand alone jointers these days, especially at the same level of quality of a jointer/planer. With all the extra cast iron, that could contribute the additional cost. I have an 8" Jet helical head jointer which was about $1800 on sale about 6 years ago. At that time, I would have paid just under $4,000 for a jointer/planer. If I were doing it over again I would seriously consider a 12" jointer/planer combo (or even a 10"). It would be nice to have the extra width when needed for jointing. However, I would then have less capacity for planing (10" or 12" instead of 13"). I usually don't consider the cost so much as what works the best for me in my shop for the work I do. My 8" jointer handles virtually all of my jointing needs since I rarely can find boards wider than 8" anyway. About a year ago I bought a 16-32 sander which will help me handle the wider boards I can't plane in my planer. It's not a complete substitute but will work in some situations and I bought the sander for other reasons anyway.

[Joseph Sorrentino]

I appreciate everyone's responses. It's still interesting to me, especially since the Hammer beds are almost as long as, say, the beds on a Laguna 12" jointer. That said, your answers helped.

Thanks again, happy new year.

[Derek Cohen]

Joseph, about 8 or so years ago I was in the market to replace the 8” Delta jointer I had in my home workshop. I wanted a wider bed, ideally 12”, but all the jointers available cost the Earth. A combo machine offered the width with a reduced bed length, and I realised that the length was of less importance since the furniture I build is mid-size-cabinet rather than long-dining-table. I went for a Hammer A3-31, which had then just come out with the spiral head. No regrets. I have bed extensions, but never needed them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bryan Hall]

When you think about it, those combos are pretty nice because it's one motor, one bed, takes up less space, etc. The 12" jointers that are stand alone tend to have longer beds for sure.

With that, there has been a massive price hike, which makes it harder to justify a standalone machine.

I think my 12" jointer went up from $5000 to $7000 since I bought it in April. Seriously considering selling it for 6k and grabbing a combo.

[Greg Quenneville]

I am not in the very long bed camp. Over the past couple of years I have milled lots and lots of boards over 8’ long on a 14” combo machine with a total bed length of 64”. I have only ever had combos in my own shop, but grew up on Dad’s Delta 4” joiner/Craftsman lunchbox. Very happy to have two superior machines in one footprint.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I’m glad combos work for some folks. I’d be pulling my hair out if I had to switch back and forth and didn’t have long beds, but I’ve become spoiled...my shop is tiny, but I have a 12” jointer with 100” total bed length and 20” planer on steel wheels that I push out of the way as needed. Both are heavy, older and industrial quality tools. I would really miss several things - long beds, having both available simultaneously while milling, etc with the planer set to a specific height without having to mess with it, and the overall smoothness / mass of them that you do not get with most aluminum / sheet metal combo machines.

It wouldn’t be the end of the world, but I don’t think I’d ever choose to work that way at this point.

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm in Philip's camp, having worked with a combination and separates. The space and cost advantages of a combo are undeniable, but the convenience of two machines outweighs that for me.

[Jim Becker]

Interestingly, it's rare that I ever have to switch back and forth and when it is necessary, it's about 60 seconds start to finish and that's with a totally manually managed tool. Why is that? I face joint in batches and then thickness. Unless I make a mental mistake...and that would be on me...I'm not going back to the jointer function very often. With a slider available, edge jointing was rare, but even now with being saddled with a cabinet saw in the temporary shop, edge jointing isn't a hassle since by the time I'm at that point, there's no thicknessing left. Long beds don't matter to me. I rarely process long boards other than maybe skimming rough to see what's there and that's done with auxiliary support. I don't start actually milling the material until after it's reduced to oversize component size. For me, this is all about workflow management. That said...this is surely subjective and if my space was unlimited, I could certainly appreciate separate machines.

----
To the question about why stand-alone big capacity tools cost the same or more than the nice combos, in addition to the comments already provided, I'll add that sometimes these standalone tools are a bit...or quite a bit...heavier and industrial than the combos. There are exceptions like Erik mentioned, but "in general", big, stand-alone jointers are real beasts.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I tend to work with enough long finished lengths - plenty in the 7-8’ range - that having long beds on a jointer is a real blessing and not something I would dismiss as unimportant, but everybody is different, does different work and has different needs. I think these types of discussions are good and are made much more useful when folks talk a little bit about what type and scale of work they do so that their opinions and preferences are qualified beyond blanket statements.

I don’t always work this way, but there are times when I face joint a board, then take it to the planer to plane the other side before I decide which edge to joint based on grain direction or if I’m cutting it close on rough width vs finished width and need a certain grain layout. There are also times during milling (longer parts specifically) where the wood reacts and goes out of flat and sometimes needs to go back to the jointer for a pass or two while planing. If I had a combo machine I would probably set those boards aside and maybe not even use them and have more extra stock milled in general so I could reject bad behavior and keep on milling everything at once without having to disrupt the set up, but having separated obviously allows a bit more flexibility. Sometimes those boards need to be set aside and saved for another use regardless, but sometimes they just need another dressing on the jointer and they’re fine.

If I had only ever used a combo machine from the beginning, I’m sure I would have a process and workflow that was adapted to that constraint, but personally I am glad for separates and will sacrifice the extra space, infrastructure, etc for them even in a small shop.

Back to the OP - I’m curious what specific models the OP is comparing. Which combo machines are under $5k these days (and available)? Which standalone models are you looking at? May not be an apples to apples comparison in terms of build quality even within the same brand.

[Warren Lake]

change over is fast ive never thought about it or it being a bother. You can joint long material on any jointer the combo is 69" total I can do any length you only need support and it does not have to match and be an extension of the tables it only needs to be support for the material.

[Jim Becker]

I tend to work with enough long finished lengths - plenty in the 7-8’ range - that having long beds on a jointer is a real blessing and not something I would dismiss as unimportant, but everybody is different, does different work and has different needs. I think these types of discussions are good and are made much more useful when folks talk a little bit about what type and scale of work they do so that their opinions and preferences are qualified beyond blanket statements.

That's a very important point and it's clear that your work benefits from the longer tool. It's an important reminder that we really have to look at what we do and how we do it when considering what tools are best for our needs. While I believe that many and maybe even most folks can work effectively with more modest capacities, that's not everyone for sure! I'm very attractive to "wide" over "long" in that respect.

[lowell holmes]

I can't imagine jointing a 1X12. My 6" jointer handle my needs. I also have a thickness planer that will joint 1X12.

A sander also helps.

[Kevin Jenness]

I operate on the principal of not crosscutting unless and until I have to. I can glue rips together but once the crosscuts are made, that's it. If I can flatten a full length 8' or 10' board or rip I will do it and leave my options open, so a long bed jointer (mine is about 84" overall) is helpful.

I do use the jointer for getting the edges free of saw marks and requiring minimal sanding. Facing and thicknessing before jointing gives me the ability to joint with the grain direction, and a combination machine would trip me up there.

If I did have a combo I would want a powered planer rise and fall to speed up the changeover. The actual elapsed time is one factor, but the annoyance of switching back and forth is at least as significant. I can plan out processing a cutlist, but there are always unexpected tasks that require both functions during the day- jigs, cauls, blocking and whatnot.

[Greg Quenneville]

Planning the work is important using a combo. I again have a four function combination machine in my garage and again have to be organised, and to mill a bit of extra stock at least to square and flat if not to final size. Since I am a hobbyist I am willing to sacrifice convenience for a smaller footprint. There are certainly compromises involved, but they are ones that I am happy to make. I found my first combo machine frustrating until I developed the ability to think through every step of the project and plan accordingly. Obviously sometimes the wood has other ideas and you have to backtrack, but not all the time, and not all the wood.

I probably spend about an hour a year cranking the beds up and down. At the most, 30 seconds at a time.

If I had a big permanent single-use shop with fixed dust collection I too would choose big seperate machines, and lots of them.

[Mark e Kessler]

Definitely in the separates camp however I have no space so combo it is, having powered table with dro makes it less painful and really not a huge deal - if i was actually trying to make any real money then I would make separates work but thankfully I don’t need to do that anymore. I think my tables on my combo are 86” and no real issue processing 8’ - 10’ lumber

[Rod Wolfy]

I can't imagine jointing a 1X12. My 6" jointer handle my needs. I also have a thickness planer that will joint 1X12.

A sander also helps.

I can. I do it frequently with my glued up 16" panels! Then plane them. A3-41! I had a 6" jointer long ago. Then a 12" J/P. Then a 12" helical head J/P. Now a 16" helical head with carbide knives. I don't see myself going bigger, bit the capacity is amazing. 13" wenge boards? No problem!.

[Clifford McGuire]

It's an important reminder that we really have to look at what we do and how we do it when considering what tools are best for our needs.

So true. I have (had) a huge old planer and a separate jointer in my standalone garage workshop. It was easy to get them in there and I had plenty of room for them.

But I am finishing up a 1200 mile move to our 'retirement home' and my shop will be in the basement. I probably needed the extra planer capacity once of twice over 20 years. It's not worth it to move them and try and get them into my basment.

So, here's my plan.... I have a Hammer A3-31 combo on order. That will live in my basement shop. I also picked up a Dewalt 735 planer that will be in my garage (along with a track saw and maybe a miter saw.) That Dewalt will be part of my 'break it down before bringing it down to the basement shop' strategy.

Like Jim says....everyone is different and needs change over time.

[Mitch schiffer]

Hi all,

I'm in the market for a jointer and doing all the normal research (and more). What I can't get my head around is that it seems a good 12" combo machine (jointer+planer) is under $5k, whereas all the brands that offer a combo machine also have a 12" standalone jointer that costs more money (almost all are more than $5k).

Why does a standalone 12" jointer cost more than a 12" jointer/planer combo?

Thanks,
Joey

I had researched this a while back when I was looking for more jointing capacity. I looked at combos with no intention of ever using it as a planer. All the combo machines I looked at seemed to be much lighter built then a stand alone machine. The fence on the combos seem to be not as nice imo either. I ended up buying a 16 inch stand alone powermatic. It has about 50 to 60 percent more horsepower and about double the weight. As others mentioned the beds are quite a bit longer too. It seems to me the larger jointers are built for more industrial or daily use then most of the combo machines. There is certainly a place for both machines but if you are looking for just a larger jointer I would recommend getting a stand alone machine. The powermatic is nice however the inserts (if you go helical) are 2 sided vs 4. The powermatic inserts are pretty expensive especially since they one have half the life of a 4 sided style.

[Mark e Kessler]

I had researched this a while back when I was looking for more jointing capacity. I looked at combos with no intention of ever using it as a planer. All the combo machines I looked at seemed to be much lighter built then a stand alone machine. The fence on the combos seem to be not as nice imo either. I ended up buying a 16 inch stand alone powermatic.


I don’t think you were comparing apples to apples, if it’s the Asian PM 16” jointer that you are talking about. If it is then for example the Felder ad941 would be a closer comparison, about the same dollars about the same hp is available in 3p the tables are longer on the PM (true with any standalone jointer) the ad941 actually is heavier by a few hundred and I would have no reservations the durability and build of the ad941 as a standalone jointer in a busy shop. I haven’t looked at the specs but I am pretty sure the equivalent SCM is in the same ballpark as the Ad941.

[Mitch schiffer]

I don’t think you were comparing apples to apples, if it’s the Asian PM 16” jointer that you are talking about. If it is then for example the Felder ad941 would be a closer comparison, about the same dollars about the same hp is available in 3p the tables are longer on the PM (true with any standalone jointer) the ad941 actually is heavier by a few hundred and I would have no reservations the durability and build of the ad941 as a standalone jointer in a busy shop. I haven’t looked at the specs but I am pretty sure the equivalent SCM is in the same ballpark as the Ad941.[/QUOTE]

This could be the case I did research it quite a while ago and most of the machines I looked at were ones I could get from my local supplier which don't cary Felder or scm. I looked at mostly 12" models and compared them to 12" combos. I haven't personally used or seen a Felder or scm combo in person, but i did compare a 12 inch jet combo to a 12 inch grizzly jointer and the grizzly did seem heavier built to me.I was just about to pull the trigger on a new powermatic or laguna 12" when I found a relatively new 16" powermatic some about the same price.

[Mitch schiffer]

I did look up the scm mini max 16 inch combo it is about half the weight and has about 40 percent less hp then the grizzly, laguna, or powermatic stand alone. Scm does look like they make a heavy duty model but that is still 500# less and the hp wasn't listed. I didn't see the specs or price on Felder just a marketing page. Maybe I'm missing something too. I'm not sure.

[Mel Fulks]

Mitch, I’m not a fan of SCM stuff either, but many find them a good value. I like the old stuff. One thing that doesn’t get mentioned much
is the old machines will take off 3/4 “ in one pass. Some will take off a whole inch. How do you know a good one? It doesn’t look like
it’s been used as an anvil. I like 2 knife or 3 knife ….4 knife is too slow.

[Ron Selzer]

Mitch, I’m not a fan of SCM stuff either, but many find them a good value. I like the old stuff. One thing that doesn’t get mentioned much
is the old machines will take off 3/4 “ in one pass. Some will take off a whole inch. How do you know a good one? It doesn’t look like
it’s been used as an anvil. I like 2 knife or 3 knife ….4 knife is too slow.

Mel, what makes a 4 knife slower?
Thanks
Ron

[Kevin Jenness]

Mitch, One thing that doesn’t get mentioned much
is the old machines will take off 3/4 “ in one pass. Some will take off a whole inch.

I have gotten a few laughs from the decal on my Powermatic 160 that warns against cuts deeper than 1/2". It's nice to have a planer that might be capable but I can't imagine wanting to come close. If I did I would resaw the material.

I can see where a deep cut on the jointer could be used for a rabbet, but that would be about my last choice of method for rabbeting. For hand-fed facing I would be very wary of deep cuts. For edging, I prefer sawing close to the line.

[Curt Harms]

I operate on the principal of not crosscutting unless and until I have to. I can glue rips together but once the crosscuts are made, that's it. If I can flatten a full length 8' or 10' board or rip I will do it and leave my options open, so a long bed jointer (mine is about 84" overall) is helpful.


True as long as the board isn't bowed. Early on, I had a bowed poplar board and a shiny new Jointer/planer. I got the board flat but by the time I was done the center was 3/4" thick the ends were 3/8" thick. Oops. Lesson learned and didn't cost much at all.

As far as jointer bed length and max board length, a rule of thumb I've seen is the board no more than 1.5 X to 2 X bed length. My Jet JJP has a 55" overall jointer bed length. Using the rule of thumb my max board length would be 82" (1.5X) to 110" (2X). For me, 7' is plenty without auxiliary support. I don't do large projects so that works for me. If I routinely did dining tables, entry doors and beds I'd probably think differently.

[Kevin Jenness]

True as long as the board isn't bowed.

Or twisted or crooked. When blocking out parts I typically cut off checked ends, rip to rough width, then decide whether I can get the target dimension from each rip once flattened. I will crossscut at that point if necessary. Occasionally a piece will go wild or show some other defect after milling - leaving everything as long as possible gives options for substitution.

[Mitch schiffer]

Mitch, I’m not a fan of SCM stuff either, but many find them a good value. I like the old stuff. One thing that doesn’t get mentioned much
is the old machines will take off 3/4 “ in one pass. Some will take off a whole inch. How do you know a good one? It doesn’t look like
it’s been used as an anvil. I like 2 knife or 3 knife ….4 knife is too slow.

I'm have nothing against the old machines but for me I prefer to buy new or lightly used. I don't have the time or desire to restore old iron. I much prefer to just use the tools. My newer powermatic jointer will take as heavy of a cut as I would ever want to. It will go to 3/4. The most i have taken off is 3/8 at about 6" wide or 1/4" at about 13" wide both these were pretty easy cuts. I really can't ever see a 3/4 cut on a joint unless you are using it to make a rabbit.

[Mel Fulks]

Mel, what makes a 4 knife slower?
Thanks
Ron

Same thing that makes an 80 tooth circular saw cut slower than a 20 tooth

[Mel Fulks]

I'm have nothing against the old machines but for me I prefer to buy new or lightly used. I don't have the time or desire to restore old iron. I much prefer to just use the tools. My newer powermatic jointer will take as heavy of a cut as I would ever want to. It will go to 3/4. The most i have taken off is 3/8 at about 6" wide or 1/4" at about 13" wide both these were pretty easy cuts. I really can't ever see a 3/4 cut on a joint unless you are using it to make a rabbit.

Deep cuts are useful for “straight lining” edges and removing sap wood. I can work alone and straight line on a jointer faster than many
two man crews using a straight-line saw

[Warren Lake]

the rule of thumb for the jointer is dont put your thumb in the jointer. Good I didnt read the internet or there was work that would not have got done.

[Rod Wolfy]

I did look up the scm mini max 16 inch combo it is about half the weight and has about 40 percent less hp then the grizzly, laguna, or powermatic stand alone. Scm does look like they make a heavy duty model but that is still 500# less and the hp wasn't listed. I didn't see the specs or price on Felder just a marketing page. Maybe I'm missing something too. I'm not sure.

There are a few differences to consider. They're not apple to apple comparisons. The Hammer I have has one motor, for both the jointer & planer. The motor is European, which is to say 50hz 220v vs 60 he. Of you wanted a 5hp Felder, I think they need a 3 phase power or a variable speed drive converter (I don't recall the term). There is less cast iron, as the tables lift to access the planer function.

A more accurate comparison would be the aforementioned Felder AD741 or AD941. They have powered lift tables, so you just set your planer depth, say 4" ¹⁵/¹⁶ and then press a button & it automatically sets your tables for that cut. But then your in the land of buying two separate machines, a 20" jointer & a 20" planer.

My 16" Hammer has a long enough bed for almost all my work. But a couple months ago, I was jointing an 8/4 by 10"x6', which was too heavy to move easily (I'm partly disabled). I just added my extension tables, which added about 12" to each side of the jointer bed and took about 1 minute to put on.

I had the Jet 12" J/P HH and it was a nice machine. It took up about the same space as the 6" jointer (about 6" wider) I had about 20 yrs ago. I'm in a smaller 2 car garage now, so I prefer the combo machine.

[Jim Becker]

Rod, I believe that Euro machines intended for and delivered to North America through normal distribution channels come with 60hz motors in most cases, but I could be incorrect on that.

[David Kumm]

One of the misconceptions about old iron is that you need to spend lots of time rehabbing. An old cast iron jointer with flat tables and a big heavy fence that is running when you buy it, will likely need less work to keep in adjustment and operating than a newer machine. 10K for a decent level new vs 3-4K for a plug and play Oliver 166 or equivalent and same amount of work. I just sold a very nice 166 for 3500 and it will still be alive after the new machines ( and I ) are long dead. Dave

[Mike Kees]

A couple years ago I was looking for a 12'' jointer. I found a Cantek that the owner wanted 3500 for. I kept looking and about 2 weeks later found the machine I now use ,it is a Paoloni 16'' with 89'' bed length. I paid 2400 for it. Al this machine needed was a guard. I played around with how to make one and eventually welded one up from steel with a section of heavy 10''' diameter plastic pipe as my bridge guard. I have 2400 in this machine.

[Phillip Mitchell]

A bit more feedback from another voice that has several older machines in service in my small full time shop...I bought a very nice condition, fully functioning 1940 Oliver 166 BD (12”) with Terminus head that needed absolutely nothing except a VFD in my case at the time. This was 3-4 years ago and it cost me $1250 for the jointer. Granted the shop that was selling it needed it gone by a specific time and was running out of time and was asking twice that price in their ad, but I didn’t know that and offered what I could afford at the time and somehow ended up with the machine which will be in my shop forever unless I stumble into a larger jointer of equal quality for a good deal. The jointer has lived an entire human lifetime thus far and may outlive me, and I am fairly young.

You don’t have to spend $5k + and wait months for a machine from Taiwan or Europe as the only option. The old iron option does typically require some common sense and willingness to learn about how to properly move them and power them if 3 phase, but it’s not rocket science and typically a fairly small hurdle to learn how to jump for the quality payoff at the end. It’s not for everybody, but often times you would have to spend ~10x the amount of their purchase price range to acquire a new machine of equivalent quality.

[Rod Wolfy]

Jim, you're correct. 60hz in US market.