Side Tool Identification

[Axel de Pugey]

Dear All,

Few years ago, I bought a lot of woodies in a flea market in Denmark and there is one tool I could never identify.

It is well built, with a big metal sole. By the imperial size marking I suppose it comes from across the Channel.

I imagine it to be used on the side.

I never restored it as I don't know its usage and it is one more tool cluttering my attic.

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z1_21_1459.jpg

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z1_21_1460.jpg

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z1_21_1461.jpg


Many thanks to shed some light on this mystery tool!

[Jim Koepke]

A few things have come to mind. Further inspection of the images has pretty much ruled all of them out.

It may be a specialized tool for a particular trade.

It could be someone's attempt to make a useful tool and it didn't work.

Not sure if someone like Patrick Leach might be able to help.

One of my thoughts is it could be used on a large containers staves to compress the wood before assembly. Then liquid would swell the compressed wood to make a seal.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Since no one else has replied …

It looks like a shopmade side rebate/rabbet plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Since no one else has replied …

It looks like a shopmade side rebate/rabbet plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That was one of my first thoughts but it doesn't have any way for a shaving to escape. The blade and the other piece look like they can move but there are screws in the metal base that would keep the wood from moving to allow for more than a shallow depth.

It could be some home made tool that did some job or it might have never worked.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

It's some kind of moulding plane. The metal plate is not the sole, but a referencing plane. It starts by cutting a thin groove and next the second iron starts cutting the curved profile. There's a escapement for the grooving cutter, the escapement for the curved cutter seems more problematic. Looking at it, it may be some kind of sash plane.

[Axel de Pugey]

All three, many thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I will try to give more details. Wooden Side rebates are of course bigger than a Preston 2506, but it is still a fairly big plane with dimensions of 24cm x 10cm
I am not familiar with sash planes

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z_Cote_21_1696.jpg


The first iron to cut is curved

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z_Cote_21_1692.jpg


the second one is flat and thin

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z_Cote_21_1695.jpg

I hope it will help.

Many thanks for your help

[Warren Mickley]

I think this is a plane for coping sash rails. When you make sash with a bar and ovolo, you can cope the end of a rail to fit over that bar and ovolo, the opposite profile. So this cuts a groove to match the bar and a cove to match the ovolo. I think the 1 1/2 refers to the total thickness of the sash; this probably was part of a set at one time.

[Axel de Pugey]

Raphael, Warren.

I checked what sash means ....and maybe we are heading somewehere.
In this lot there were few tools specifically for windows, like this Pestum avec feuillure à verre à quart de rond in french.

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/SMC_pestum_Feuilleret_0056.jpg


There was no owner's name on any of these tools, but it is absolutely possible they were all from the same windows maker owner.

While I appreciate it could be half of a pair, I still don't understand why this tool would have a metal sole and not a wooden fence on the opposite side....a bit like a rule joint plane.

[Warren Mickley]

The feuillure part is the rabbet with fence on the right side of this plane. It makes a rabbet for the glass. When making a rail end to fit this rabbet we can do this part by leaving a longer shoulder on the rail, so this part does not need a corresponding coping plane.

The quart de rond part is the left side of this plane. It makes an ovolo on the indoor side of the sash, and leaves a bar between the ovolo and the rabbet. Your other plane cuts the inverse of the ovolo and the bar.

This plane cane be adjusted for slightly different thickness of sash by the screw arms.

[Rafael Herrera]

The first iron to cut is curved

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z_Cote_21_1692.jpg


The plane will cut from bottom to top as shown in the picture. It'll start cutting a groove, as a plough plane, first. The other cutter will go into action later, and then both irons cut at the same time. It'll stop cutting when it reaches a fixed depth, determined by that horizontal metal strip below the wingnuts.

I'm not an expert, but the plane seems to be designed to create a matching piece for a profile similar to the ovolo moulding in the picture. A piece that will meet it vertically.

470737

Similar to the piece on the right here.

470738

Again, not exactly what you have, but gives you an idea.

[Edward Weber]

It looks to me to be similar to or a type of Kude Shakuri Kanna or joint plow plane. Mainly since they're the only ones I'm aware of that have a fore and aft blade but I'm no plane aficionado.
Example,
https://www.fine-tools.com/kikai-shakuri-kanna.html

[Axel de Pugey]

Thank you all for your help, I think we can safely say that this tool is for a window maker then!

Thank you Warren we have the same understanding of the usage of the french Pestum.
Thank you Edward, I never digged into japanese tools and I am a bit lost there.

As far as I my non native skills let me understand, Warren and Rafael are thinking alike:


I think this is a plane for coping sash rails. When you make sash with a bar and ovolo, you can cope the end of a rail to fit over that bar and ovolo, the opposite profile. So this cuts a groove to match the bar and a cove to match the ovolo. I think the 1 1/2 refers to the total thickness of the sash; this probably was part of a set at one time.


The plane will cut from bottom to top as shown in the picture. It'll start cutting a groove, as a plough plane, first. The other cutter will go into action later, and then both irons cut at the same time. It'll stop cutting when it reaches a fixed depth, determined by that horizontal metal strip below the wingnuts.

I'm not an expert, but the plane seems to be designed to create a matching piece for a profile similar to the ovolo moulding in the picture. A piece that will meet it vertically.(...)

so to make the cut in red:

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z_Cote_158-0515_p.jpg

Did I understand correctly?
As it is end grain, it seems not a really easy tool to use!
Then was the metal sole riding flat on the workbench and the wood held like on a shooting board for left handers?

[Warren Mickley]

Yes, your diagram gives the right idea. However there is also a tenon going in the direction of your arrow into the stile (vertical member). In a rail to stile joint this tenon usually goes all the way through the stile; in a muntin to stile joint, this sometimes is a shallower tenon. Your diagram as pictured would leave the joint vulnerable to sideways motion.

The tenon is also the reason the plow part of your plane is much narrower than what the bar would be, as you do show on your diagram.

I think when this tool was used, the rails or the muntins were "ganged up" in a vise so that the plane did an number of members at the same time. This would make the operation quicker, and more stable. Often when we make sash it is more than one at a time.

I have it in mind that tools like yours were developed in the 19th century and that in the 18th century other methods were used. I have made lots of sash without ever using a plane like yours. I had meant to ask Ted Ingraham about the 18th century, but when I ran into him a few years ago, I could not remember this question. Ted made a video on making sash. There are some minor things I think could be better, but certainly it gives a good feel for the work.

https://vimeo.com/349061095

[Tom M King]

If you can zoom into this picture, you will see the same Cope used with five different length tenons. A Coping plane will cut the same cope regardless of the length of tenon, plus the same cope on the rails. This might very well be a Coping Plane, but it would be for some very large windows.

For that job, I used custom made router bits because I had 38 sash to make, and a number of original 1798 ones to replace parts in. One of the bits cut those copes. If I just have a few to make, I use a jewelers saw. I have a couple of coping planes, but have never have run across the exact profile they make for sash that I reproduce. I make exact reproductions, down to the length of tenons.

[Tom M King]

Probably not quite as large as these. We have photographs, and family correspondence going back a couple of hundred years (photos not quite that long).

This is a postcard postmarked 1909. It's Franklin, Va. High School. These are the largest double hung windows I've ever seen, and only in this picture.

[Jim Koepke]

These are the largest double hung windows I've ever seen, and only in this picture.

A friend of mine many years ago called those "pioneer" windows. The point being they were popular before electric lighting. The taller the window the more light could come in while the sun was up.

jtk

[Axel de Pugey]

Warren, Tom, many thanks for your clear explanation.
I can finally picture the use of this tool.
It is peculiar this tool seems unknown in the US, I believe this is not shop made, no parts seems to be reused from something else, and it is extremely well built.
Maybe it was a small production from a UK tool maker as a test as Jim suggested.
I could also think the tool was made for a left handed user!

Anyway, many thanks to all for your input, I consider this mystery of mine solved thanks to you!

[Axel de Pugey]

Coming back to this thread with a final info.

Last Summer I was visiting the amazing folk Museum "Gamle By (https://www.dengamleby.dk/en/den-gamle-by/discover/life-before-1900s/)" in Aarhus, Denmark.

I saw a lot of really nice tools and specialized workshops.
Inside one of the Museum buildings, there is an actual "living" upholstery shop and as I passed and checked the planes shelf, my eyes were attracted to a specific tool:
https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z_Cote_Aarhus2_wf_22_2337.jpg

I then asked the lady working there on re upholstering an armchair if she could show it to me:
https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z_Cote_Aarhus1_IMG_0423.jpg

https://pic.higo.pm/bois/bouvets/Z_Cote_Aarhus3_IMG_0425.jpg


So here was sitting the exact same tool as mine in Denmark again.
Unfortunately the lady did not have a clue about all these tools.

I then realised that if nobody knew the tool on this very forum it was maybe not from the english speaking world after all.
I decided to contact probably one of the wisest man when it comes to wooden planes from the north of Europe, Wolfgang Jordan from holzwerken (https://www.holzwerken.de/sitemap.phtml).

Wolfgang is sharing his knowledge without sparing through his website and advising authors writing books about planes...such as the Bible (https://www.editionsvial.com/les-rabots.html) for french woodies.

And he confirmed this tool was exactely to do what Rafael, Warren and Tom suspected, and was really specific to the North of Germany only and Denmark.
He provided me with a catalogue link on his website where we can see the very plane. (https://kataloge.holzwerken.de/index.html?name=ott_friedrich&lfdnr=17#&gid=1&pid=19)



Mystery solved!

Many thanks Wolfgang and everybody here for your help in my investigations!

[Warren Mickley]

There were sash coping planes made in the United States in the 19th century.

[Tom M King]

Great find, and detective work Axel!

[Axel de Pugey]

Thanks Tom!