Sharpening: hand or wheel

[Jacob Chavez]

Hello, I'd love some opinions on this topic. I am fairly new to hand woodworking. I just purchased some diamond stones and flattening a set of cheap chisels. Wow it took a lot of time. I understand that flattening the back should be done with either method. I am considering getting a Tormek sharpening wheel, buy I wanted to get some professional opinions from folks that have done it both ways. If you have years of experience using both methods, which one do you prefer? What are the pros and cons of both methods? Of course, time is the big con of hand sharpening, but if you prefer hand sharpening, have you found some ways to minimize the time that it takes? I don't have lots of time to devote to sharpening, so I would like to make an informed choice. I have not purchased the wheel yet. It is a significant investment.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Jake

[mike stenson]

I have a tormek, a high speed dry grinder and waterstones. I grind with the dry grinder and hone with the stones. The tormek really gets used for turning tools, as using it to regrind an edge takes a long, long time. Honing doesn't take a lot of time, it really should take less than a couple minutes start to finish. Flattening the back of chisels takes a whole lot of time, no matter how you do it, fortunately you really only do that once.

Edit: Regarding grinder speeds. I've not seen enough benefit to warrant the extra cost of a low speed grinder.

[chuck van dyck]

Couple thoughts. If you feel you can justify the expense of a Tormek, I’m doubtful you’d ever regret it.
You could go a different route and just skip the cheap chisels. Quality tools will come flat and only need to be maintained, which is easy if done often and effectively.
I happen to love refurbishing old tools. I’ll bring them in the house and flatten the backs at the kitchen sink while the dinner is cooking. Wife doesn’t mind as long as I’m taking care of dinner. Can usually get through at least one a night. Once the initial investment of time over, again maintaining is easy. I like the tuning/restoring because you really get to know a tool.
For me, half of this is a love of the tools. I expect its the same for everyone in this forum. Skip the cheap crap unless cheap means a good deal on an old Witherby or something and you’ll have a much better time. No need for an 8pc set. Just a couple 2 or 3 nice ones and leave the cheap ones for scraping glue and the such.

[Kevin Jenness]

Hello, I'd love some opinions on this topic.

Jake

Well, you came to the right place. These threads typically go on at length. Look back through the Neanderthal archive for a sampling.

Tormek works fine. Interminably slow for reshaping. Expensive.

Pick one system and work with it until you can renew your edges as good as you need in a couple of minutes. Don't get too hung up on equipment. A coarse diamond stone for reshaping, a fine one for a secondary bevel and a strop with green buffing compound will get you to a working edge quickly. Refine the process as needed with experience.

[Charles Guest]

Hello, I'd love some opinions on this topic. I am fairly new to hand woodworking. I just purchased some diamond stones and flattening a set of cheap chisels. Wow it took a lot of time. I understand that flattening the back should be done with either method. I am considering getting a Tormek sharpening wheel, buy I wanted to get some professional opinions from folks that have done it both ways. If you have years of experience using both methods, which one do you prefer? What are the pros and cons of both methods? Of course, time is the big con of hand sharpening, but if you prefer hand sharpening, have you found some ways to minimize the time that it takes? I don't have lots of time to devote to sharpening, so I would like to make an informed choice. I have not purchased the wheel yet. It is a significant investment.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Jake

I think that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the function of a grinder and hollow grinding.

When hollow grinding, grinding with a wheel, you do not grind all the way to the edge unless the edge is badly nicked. The point behind hollow grinding is to not have to remove metal from the entire bevel when honing, but only the tip of the tool and this is done at one's fine stone. Once you realize this, there is no reason to overspend on a grinder. You're just removing steel up to, but not at, the cutting edge 99% of the time. A really bad gash might require blunting the edge on the grinder past the gash, then putting the hollow back in to just behind what will be the edge, and then honing and shaping on your fine stone to produce the actual cutting edge. Hence, a grinder never shortens a tool (unless it's gashed) all it does is maintain the hollow. The tool is only shortened when honing on your stones.

If you plan on badly gashing chisels and plane irons on a regular basis (it's been years since it's happened to me) then by all means get a water-cooled grinder. Otherwise, a dry grinder with a dash pot of water is all you need -- that, and an understanding of the process and what it is and isn't supposed to accomplish.

And, you don't have to grind at all. You can maintain flat bevels on your chisels and plane irons if you wish. Ultimately, you'll be able to do this freehand. Early on, you might like to have a honing jig.

[Chuck Hill]

The only thing that I will add is to consider getting a CBN wheel for the grinder. They stay cooler than the stones, reducing the risk of burning the chisel, and cut quickly. I've upgraded to one and like it a lot.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I think Charles said it better than I could - I agree with every word.

That being said I would suggest looking into a low speed grinder instead of a Tormek .
cheaper, you can use Tormek attachments if you want. and I don't speak from experience but I believe it is faster too. definitely less messy

[Jason Buresh]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is how did you flatten the back?

The entire back does not have to be a completely even flat surface on the back. The only part that needs to be evenly flat from side to side is the leading edge. Japanese chisels have an intentional hollow in the back.

If you are flattening the backs so there is a consistent polish all the way across the back. This may not be necessary.

With that point though, only hollows are acceptable. If your blade has a belly, or when you start to flatten and the only scratch marks are in the middle of the back, that will have to be taken down until there is a consistent scratch pattern at the edge. Bellied chisels are a sharpening nightmare sometimes.

[Rafael Herrera]

I think you may also have a misunderstanding regarding hand sharpening. Honing a chisel or plane iron can be done in less than two minutes under normal circumstances.

[steven c newman]

I use a mix...disc/belt sander's disc....Oil stones....wet/dry sandpaper to 2500 grit....then the Unicorn..IF it is out on the bench...otherwise, just a leather strop...


Also, rather than stand up from doing joinery at the bench ( I usually am sitting down on a stool) if the chisel I am using feel a bit dull....a few strops on the pants leg of my jeans for a quick refresh, and back to work...


I'll go and pop the popcorn....

[mike stenson]

I'll go and pop the popcorn....

I like popcorn. After using hickory a lot on my current project, I should have added frequent stropping.

[Jason Buresh]

I like popcorn. After using hickory a lot on my current project, I should have added frequent stropping.

+1 to frequent stropping. I keep my strop under the bench at arms reach, and a few swipes is usually enough to get back to work.

[Tom Bussey]

I have had a tormek for over 25 years not. My wheel is now right around 8 inches in diameter. It is a grate knife sharpener. But it is very slow at reshaping tools, lathe tools which are M2 high speed tools are awful and slow re-sharpen let alone to reshape.

I have switched over to a slow speed grinder with two CBN wheels on it. I have a wolverine grinding lets call it a jig. that I don't use much anymore. I installed a couple of Tormek bench grinder bars on it, pictured below. I use the the different tormek tool holders to hold the cutters. Lets say I am reshaping a plane blade or chisel I use the tormek tool holder, set the angle with the tormek gage and go to work. A plane blade fresh from a flea market my take about two minutes of actual reshaping. then I go to a 1000, grit water stone, a 3000grit stone, and a 8000 grit stone which can take up to 45 seconds and then to the leather strap on the tormek. I always finish by polishing on the leather wheel.

It is said that CBN wheels will load up on less hard chisels and things but I haven't found it to be true. I grind right up to the cutting edge and move to the stoned. I am amassed at how cool the CBN wheels cut. I finish with stones because when I am working is is put the chisel in the holder set the angle and within 45 seconds you are back to work.

I prefer a 180 and a 600 grit CBN wheels which is recommended for a wood turner more than a wood worker. I have 80-360 grit wheels over at my shop which is more woodworking but I strongly recommend the 180 -600 instead. Anyway they work the best for me. If yo get the 1 1/2 inch wide ones that have about 1 inch of CBN on the side. You will find that flattening the backs of chisels takes no time at all. You can grind on the side of a CBN wheel because they are aluminum wheels and not stone.

The best place to get them is Woodturners Wonders. As well as a lot of sharpening jigs and fixtures. PM me if you have more questions. If you believe that Chisels are to soft because someone said they were soft and will load up CBN wheel, which they won't then there is also a product called Slick stick. ( at woodturners wonders)

[Tom Bussey]

Forgot the picture.
.470615

[chuck van dyck]

I think the heart of the question was, “how do I make flattening the backs of chisels less of a chore?”… I stand by, buy chisels with flat backs. I spent like 2 weeks trying to rehab my first decent chisels. They were Ulmias I found at an estate sale. Was a good learning experience!

[steven c newman]

Two weeks to due a 5-10 minute job? I need to sign up for that Union Job!

[chuck van dyck]

Two weeks to due a 5-10 minute job? I need to sign up for that Union Job!


Reminds me of one of my favorite Ted Lucas songs, "it's so easy when you know what you're doin". All I had were a set of chisels and a combo stone, much like the OP. When you don't know better you use stones that aren't flat, be them diamond, water, oil, etc. The more you use them the more damage you do. You know the story. So yes, it took a while. Hope you don't think I spent 80 hours on them.

Not to sound rude here, but you started it, I highly doubt you can flatten and polish the back of 8 chisels in 5-10 minutes without your wheel, and even with I highly doubt it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Putting that type of information out there to someone just getting started is just plain irresponsible and is nothing but an ego flex. Same goes for your little pant legs tidbit, not helpful to the OP. Your palm is just oiled leather, great stropping material, don’t do it. Get off your butt and grab the dang strop. Just my .02.

[steven c newman]

That would be 5-10 minutes (maybe) per chisel....and..you should see some of what comes home with me from Yard sale season....

BTW...Oldtimers used to use the palms of their hands for a quick hone, then right back to work...so much for the fabled "Hours of Drudgery"....

And, just because one can indeed put a mirror polish on a butter knife, doesn't mean it will cut warm butter any better..

[Curt Putnam]

A powered wheel is faster but it also destroys faster. Until you have experience enough to have your own opinion I will suggest that flattening backs is best done. with 80 grit sandpaper stuck to a flat surface such as a jointer table.

Grinding chisels or plane irons on a slow-speed grinder with CBN wheels is the way to go, but be prepared to destroy multiple tools until you develop the necessary skills. That is what lead me to start off with a Worksharp 3000. I;ve since moved to using stones with a jig.

I would echo the advice to buy tools with already flat backs. Lee Valley's Veritas tools come flatter than we can do by hand.

[Jacob Chavez]

Wow! Thank you all so much for the thoughts. I was just amazed at how long it was taking to flatten the back of a cheap chisel with a coarse diamond stone. Money is less of an issue for me, so I opted to go ahead and pick up a Tormek. My thing is that I don't have a lot of time to spend on sharpening, so I really do need something that will consistantly give excellent results and is easily repeatable without a lot of time. Yes, I know, if money's not a big issue, get quality chisels and take care of them. I most certainly will and maybe I'll just sharpen those by hand, since I have the gear now. I ordered a Lie-Nielsen jig, so that will make hand sharpening easier and more accurate. I will say though, that flattening the back on the Tormek T8 is actually pretty fast. Way faster than by hand, you just use the side of the wheel... probably takes about a minute whereas last night, I must have spent over an hour on a similar chisel on a coarse diamond stone to get the same results. So, I suppose it will likely be a combination of using the Tormek and hand sharpening with the diamond stones, once I get some nice chisels.

Oh another thing... Youtube can really lead a person astray (likely don't need to tell this group that!) but I saw a lot of videos where they were feeling the wet stone when switching to coarse and fine grit. Yeah, not a good idea. It tore the pads of my fingers up. Just tought i'd pass that on.

I will also say the diamond wheels for the Tormek look amazing. Yes, I have found that grinding a new primary bevel on a chisel on a Tormek with the standard stone does take quite a while... probably 30 min or more for a 1" chisel. I figure this is a one time investment, then instead of doing secondary bevels on these tools, I'll sharpen with the same angle and just keep them with a single bevel.

This stuff is awesome, I'm really enjoying learning woodworking. Thank you all for your input.

Jake

[Andrew Hughes]

Jacob asking about sharpening with your first post is a lot like waking into a bar full of bikers and asking who’s got the best Harley.
Threads like this start fights that go for months :)

[Jacob Chavez]

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. Regardless, I thank anyone for constructive input in my journey. We all start somewhere.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Jacob and welcome to the Creek.

The Tormek receives praise from many owners. My choice was made from a Fine Woodworking article some 30 years ago or more. It gave high marks to the Veritas MkII Power Sharpening System (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/power-systems/48435-veritas-mk-ii-power-sharpening-system?item=05M3101) <(click on that)

A hollow grind does make it easier to sharpen by hand.

In my case almost all of my tool purchases have been vintage tools needing restorations. The set up has been used for non-sharpening tasks of working on metal and even wood. It has sharpened garden tools.

The Veritas MkII is easier to set up for a secondary bevel than for a single bevel. It isn't difficult to set it up to produce a single flat bevel.

My other hand powered system is a 4' by ~6" hunk of granite with 300 grit PSA abrasive material from a 4" roll. This can actually get a chisel warm while working the back.

If you do not have more than a few tools life will be easy. For me there is always something to tinker with among my various tools and other items that get treated to a little abrasive work.

jtk

[Jacob Chavez]

The Veritas does look like a nice system for a good price. Looks like if I want a flat bevel with the Tormek, I'll need to get a diamond wheel.
We'll see how it goes with the hollow grind method. I don't see any disadvantages to hollow grinds yet, except, I will say, getting the jig
to grind square has been a trick. I'm finding that I am having to fine tune the angle and check several times until I see that I'm grinding
evenly across the chisel. Perhaps this is something that just takes experience. I just learned from a video on the Tormek website that there
are two lines that when aligned is supposed to be square. I'll try that tomorrow to see if it really is. The tolerances on the Tormek seem to
be pretty good, but not machining level tolerances by any means. I'm posting a few photos of my best grinds of the day. I'm pretty
happy with them but I'm open to any constructive criticism.
470665470666
Here are google photos links to the images
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GDHLbk2xTFGqBDUr7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rayrmftkGvLTeom77
Not sure why, but I don't see the photos inline.
Jacob

[Kevin Jenness]

The Veritas does look like a nice system for a good price. Looks like if I want a flat bevel with the Tormek, I'll need to get a diamond wheel.
We'll see how it goes with the hollow grind method. I don't see any disadvantages to hollow grinds yet, except, I will say, getting the jig
to grind square has been a trick. I'm finding that I am having to fine tune the angle and check several times until I see that I'm grinding
evenly across the chisel. Perhaps this is something that just takes experience. I just learned from a video on the Tormek website that there
are two lines that when aligned is supposed to be square. I'll try that tomorrow to see if it really is. The tolerances on the Tormek seem to
be pretty good, but not machining level tolerances by any means. I'm posting a few photos of my best grinds of the day. I'm pretty
happy with them but I'm open to any constructive criticism.
470665470666
Here are google photos links to the images
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GDHLbk2xTFGqBDUr7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rayrmftkGvLTeom77
Not sure why, but I don't see the photos inline.
Jacob

The backs look decent except for the pits in the second one. The bevels are pretty coarse, resulting in the minor serrations at the edge visible in the first photo. Are you using the stone grader and buffing wheel?

The finer the scratches in the edge, the better and longer it will cut. When you can pare soft pine endgrain clean with no crumbling or linear tracks in the surface you will be on the right track.

[Jacob Chavez]

The backs look decent except for the pits in the second one. The bevels are pretty coarse, resulting in the minor serrations at the edge visible in the first photo. Are you using the stone grader and buffing wheel?

The finer the scratches in the edge, the better and longer it will cut. When you can pare soft pine endgrain clean with no crumbling or linear tracks in the surface you will be on the right track.

Kevin,
Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, I am using the grader, but I didn't spend a lot of time at the finer grit. Sounds like I need to do that to get rid of the serrations then a bit more time on the leather wheel. I am not so confident on the leather wheel as I don't want to goof up the nice edge that I just ground. I'm thinking I will try using the tool holder at the leather wheel until I feel more confident. Then I will take the training wheels off of my Harley ;)

[Kevin Jenness]

Kevin,
Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, I am using the grader, but I didn't spend a lot of time at the finer grit. Sounds like I need to do that to get rid of the serrations then a bit more time on the leather wheel. I am not so confident on the leather wheel as I don't want to goof up the nice edge that I just ground. I'm thinking I will try using the tool holder at the leather wheel until I feel more confident. Then I will take the training wheels off of my Harley ;)

The rough grading on the standard Tormek wheel I think is something like 220# for rough grinding and the grader is supposed to modify that to about 1,000#. You can use a marker on the edge to see when the rough ground surface has been removed. If the ground edge is presented to the buffing wheel at the proper angle it will take some effort to really screw it up - at worst you will wind up with a steeper cutting angle.

1,000# to buffing is a big jump and the edge would probably last longer if a something like a 4,000# stone were used in between, but the Tormek system will give you a decent useable edge. My son uses it in his timber framing shop and is happy with it. At least you can't burn your edges as you can with a dry grinder, it gives consistent results and it is somewhat faster than bench stones. You do have to maintain the wheel.

The important thing is to get comfortable with whatever system you are using and get your edges sharp enough to satisfy you without spending a lot of time chasing the ultimate whatever. You can get a lot of mileage out of a sharp edge if you frequently take it back to the buffer. Just don't use the buffing wheel on your nice flat chisel backs as that will dub them over. A flat strop will do better there.

[Jacob Chavez]

Another thing is that the stone grader doesn't seem to return the wheel back to a very coarse grit. Does anyone know what grit the wheel is after using the truing tool? I don't think the grader brings it back to 220 as it grinds much slower than it does after it's been trued. Maybe it's more like an 80 grit after truing, but the difference is significant. I am now hesitant to use the grader for this reason. The diamond stones are looking more and more appealing for their many benefits.

[Kevin Jenness]

Another thing is that the stone grader doesn't seem to return the wheel back to a very coarse grit. Does anyone know what grit the wheel is after using the truing tool? I don't think the grader brings it back to 220 as it grinds much slower than it does after it's been trued. Maybe it's more like an 80 grit after truing, but the difference is significant. I am now hesitant to use the grader for this reason. The diamond stones are looking more and more appealing for their many benefits.

Now you are on the endless road to the "perfect" system. Get out your checkbook.

My advice is to stick with the time-tested system you have for now. If the trued wheel cuts aggressively enough for rough work use it for that when needed, which should not be often once your blades are tuned up. Re-establishing a worn hollow grind can be done with the graded stone, whether coarse or fine. You have effectively several (slow-cutting) grit sizes in one wheel at the cost of relatively high wear. By the time the wheel needs replacement you will know whether you need (want) to drop several hundred dollars on a diamond wheel.

[Jacob Chavez]

Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, I am a perfectionist, but really, how I think of it is effectiveness. I know perfection is an illusion. I think the point of struggle that I'm grappling with is that I would like to use the Tormek only to do 90% of my sharpening (utility sharpening where I don't need to cut hardwood end grain like butter. I'd just grind the bevel at 25 degrees each time (coarse, fine, strop move one) but this constant regrading of the stone is an extra step, honestly it doesn't seem to work very well and also slightly gouges up the stone which is not a good thing.

I think I'll likely end up doing the primary bevel grinding with the Tormek, leaving my stone at coarse (or extra coarse - freshly graded) Using the side of the stone to do the majority of the back, then doing the rest on by hand with a Lie Nielsen guide. Seems like this would be the quickest way to get a razor sharp durable edge that is repeatable.

I'm just a little "erked" by the fact that they market the stone to be "gradable" and you can make it fine, but I don't see that you're really able to regrade it very effectively back and forth from fine to coarse, fine to coarse. Even if I'm not doing anything "wrong" and this is in fact a problem with the Tormek, original stone, I don't for one second regret purchasing it because I know I'll use it to sharpen all kinds of things and I'll very likely upgrade to some diamond wheels in the future. I'll probably buy all 3 by when it's all said and done along with the MB-100. I'd probably start with the 600 grit then add the coarse and extra fine later if it either doesn't grind quickly enough to reestablish a primary bevel or get the fine stone to take the sharpness to the mirror polish state quickly. I'm very interested in Rob Cosman's process with the Shapton stones. Link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qYIdvG455g

[steven c newman]

After all that sharpening...maybe time to put it to work?
470783
Bandsaw to rough out an edge, chisel to refine that edge...
470784
Back of the chisel IS indeed flat...
470785
And just a single, flat bevel..
470786
Aldi's 24mm chisel....YMMV...

[Derek Cohen]

I think the point of struggle that I'm grappling with is that I would like to use the Tormek only to do 90% of my sharpening

Hi Kevin, and welcome to SMC.

There is immediately a problem when you start out believing that the Tormek is a sharpening system. It is far better used as a grinder for the primary bevel, and then you do the actual sharpening and polishing on stones. Leave the Tormek on 220 grit, and forget about the regrader.

A decade ago I wrote this piece for my website …


Is the Tormek a Grinder or a Sharpener, and are 30K grits for Wankers?
I love my Tormek, but I have had a number of "debates" with the US representative of Tormek, who insists on calling it a sharpener" while I insist on it being seen to be a grinder. This is not simply a different choice of words to mean the same thing.

He argues that the Tormek is a sharpening system since the honing wheel will convert the 1000 gritted grind to a 8000 grit edge. I argue that this may be so, but I would not use it (others might, not me) on wood if I want a good finish. There is more to sharpening and preparing an edge - be it chisel or plane blade - than simply "sharp".

"Sharp" is for me synonymous with "smooth" - a smooth edge is a sharp edge. As you go up the grit ratings, so you create an ever increasing smooth edge, that is, the edge serrations become smaller and smaller. This transfers to your wood, and the finish is smoother as well.

There is a second factor. Taking an edge off a 1000 grit wheel and honing it on a 8000 wheel strop does not necessarily produce a flat edge. The edge may be 8000, it may feel sharp (cut arm hair) etc, but it can be curved/serrated/grooved, etc.

Instead one should take the edge off a Tormek (or any grinder) and smooth/straighten it out on a flat waterstone (or sandpaper, etc). I go to a 1000 Shapton for this. But if you are doing this, then there is NO NEED to go higher than 220 on the Tormek (that is, you do not need to first re-surface the wheel to 1000 grit before moving on) ... a big time saver!

... and so on to 8000, 12000, etc ... whatever you want.

But wait ... there is more!!!

Is a 12000 or 15000 or 30000 grit stone only for wankers? http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/IsTheTormekAGrinderOrASharpener_html_m58964265.png

No. Edges often fail, not because the steel is not strong enough, but because it is strong enough! This means that edges are more likely to chip than to bend. Chipping is more likely to occur where there are serrations, and the larger the serrations, the greater the propensity for chipping.

Soooooo .... the smaller the serrations, the less likely the chipping ... hence a higher grit sharpening will hold an edge longer than a lower grit sharpened blade.
One more thing to consider. I was reading Ron Hock’s new book, The Perfect Edge, the Ultimate Guide to Sharpening for Woodworkers (http://www.hocktools.com/perfectedge.htm), on sharpening in which he presents evidence that Side Sharpening (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html ) leaves an edge with fewer serrations than front-and-back honing.

Regards from Perth

Derek
January 2010



There is a second article that may help as well, which was written a year earlier but is still very relevant: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeyondSharpASharpeningStrategy.html

Derek

[Jacob Chavez]

Such great information here. It helps a lot. I also learned about https://scienceofsharp.com/ It's all starting to make sense. I'm glad to put my new "grinder" in its place now. Though I can see it technically qualifying as a sharpening system, since it is intended to create an edge. It's just more crude than than they'd like to admit perhaps, out of the box. Alright, hope I didn't ruffle any feathers with that :)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

When starting, I tried many things, but, the tool that produced the fastest most consistent results for me was the Tormek. So, a little discussion.

I started on sandpaper using a guide. It was slow and it worked.

The hardest thing for me is flattening the back. I still use sandpaper. I have not found anything that lets me do it any other way without damaging the back. You will notice that Steve made some comment about using a belt sander. Well, Steve is an anomaly in my mind. I handed him a chisel and he stropped it on his jeans or his hand or something and made it sharper. My point is that he has a bunch of skill and coordination that I do not have. You are supposed to be able to flatten on the side of a Tormek wheel. All I did was damage my chisel backs (practice with cheap chisels). I also tried on a Worksharp 3000 that people here love and have great results. I always ended up with a slight skew, but things were sharp. Admittedly, when I have a problem with a tool and I cannot make it go, I go see Steve and he fixes me up.

When things are crazy out of control, I use a slow speed dry grinding wheel just because it is faster than my tormek.

The Tormek is wet, it uses water. You will NOT burn your tools using a Tormek.

I flatten using sand paper and I can go rough as I need to, but, those really deep scratches take a long time to get out.

Next question. Do you want a flat bevel or a hollow grind? If you sharpen on a wheel, you get a hollow grind. I want a hollow grind because that helps me free hand sharpen for touch-ups. You will not take it back to a grinder (probably). While working, I will pop over to whatever stone I have around (Arkansas stone, Shapton water stone, Norton Ascent Ceramic) touch it up free hand because I have that hollow grind, I am am back to work very fast.

A pro would tell you that you should be able to free hand without the hollow grind. Many people do. I had problems. Over time I improve, but that is why I like the hollow grind. It is also probably why I used cheap chisels for so long; it was so fast to touch them up they were still usable.

if you do not want a hollow grind, well, you need to learn to free hand or use a guide on an abrasive. A micro-bevel is more common if you do this. But then you need to grind down that micro-bevel eventually. (always a pro and a con)

Another choice is something like the worksharp with a spinning disk.

I like the things that come with a Tormek. All the guides and such.

Some blades are very short. Short blades are often difficult with a Tormek because they do not fit nicely in a jig. There are ways around it of course, but remember that every method has a pro and a con.

Some people just purchase the Tormek jigs and use them on slow speed grinders. Others buy diamond wheels for their Tormek (Derek does this I think).

Wish you lived closer, you could try out my Tormek to see what you think.

[steven c newman]

Find a nasty, old chisel and haul it up here....and a camera...and we'll see just how long it takes...and...have photo evidence!...

[Luke Dupont]

Take this with a grain of salt as I've never owned a Tormek or powered grinder (though I have used grinders on occasion in other people's shops), but...

I have to reiterate what Derek Cohen says: I would not use any powered grinder as a sole sharpening system.

I would *not* want to try to achieve a final edge just on the tormek. You simply don't have the precision and control that you do with a flat stone. And you're also likely over heating the very tip of the cutting edge if you run it dry.

Grinders such as this are for rough stock removal on the bevel side only. Establish the basic geometry with a grinder, and move on to stones for much better results.

I realize that sharpening can be a chore in the beginning, and the inclination is to just throw money at the problem and try every jig and method under the sun, but... Ultimately, the time spent learning to just free hand on stones is well worth it. Once you get it down, sharpening ceases to be a chore and will hardly disrupt your work unless you really damage your edge, at which point that grinder is very helpful.

My sharpening routine, most often, consists of a single oilstone (a vintage Washita) and a strop. I rarely need anything coarser. I plop the stone on my bench, add a few drops of oil, work the whole bevel, remove any burr that is formed, and strop it carefully. A few more drops of oil and a wipe down with a paper towel, and the stone is put back away and I'm ready to go again. The time I save messing around with jigs and what not more than makes up for any efficiency I lack.

I rarely need to go to anything coarser unless I've *really* messed up my edge, or I'm working on a new tool that needs work. Tools both new and old often require a huge amount of work to get the backs flat, and this is just something you have to suck up and keep at it. I recommend a fairly coarse sandpaper, as some here have recommended already -- though, it can be difficult to find the right type of sandpaper which doesn't load up or wear out too quickly.

[Jim Koepke]

I recommend a fairly coarse sandpaper, as some here have recommended already -- though, it can be difficult to find the right type of sandpaper which doesn't load up or wear out too quickly.

Remember, the coarser the abrasive, the more time will be spent removing scratches on the next level of abrasive.

On my granite bench there is a steel screw for holding a magnet. The magnet is wrapped in paper. This is used regularly to remove iron particles from the abrasive. With something like a plane, it is used every three or four full length passes.

jtk

[Jacob Chavez]

Success! I agree with what you all are saying and I appreciate the advice very much. I think I've found what will work for me: For chisels and plane irons: Hollow grind primary bevel on Tormek, general purpose stone and add secondary bevel with Lie-Nielsen honing guide on 1200 grit diamond stone followed by 4000 grit and 8000 grit Norton (which I already have so might as well use it if it works. Flatten cheap chisels on the side of the Tormek general purpose stone followed by stones mentioned previously. Flatten backs of quality chisels and plane irons by hand only.

Now, here's what's cool. I realized that grading the Tormek stone from coarse to fine and fine to coarse with the standard issue grading stone does not work well. I don't know if others have had this experience, but mine was not good. It graded it well to fine, but then not so well going back to coarse. The stone became uneven and still nowhere near as coarse as a freshly graded stone. Sooo, I searched the Tormek forums and here's what I found: https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2656.15
Basically, diamond stones do a much better job at grading the stone. I am a little worried about ruining my diamond stones, but thought I'd give it a quick try with my 600 grit. It worked great! Then my 1200 grit. No noticeable damage. I didn't do it for long though, maybe only 5 seconds. It worked well too and refined the stone noticeably. I'm mostly planning on sharpening knives with this method, and doing my chisels by hand (I think) I may do my cheap chisels with this method and quality chisels by hand, we'll see. I have not graded the stone back to coarse yet. I'm going to buy a $18 2" x 6" 300 grit stone and use it so as to not damage my 3x8 coarse stone if damage does occur. I don't know why but for some reason, I'm more hesitant to use my coarse stone to grade the Tormek stone than my fine stones... seems aggressive.

To be clear, I'm not recommending that anyone grade their Tormek stone with their diamond stones, just that some have done it and had good results. You could damage your diamond stones! Try it at your own risk! I'll probably pick up some smaller diamond stones specifically for this purpose.

Hope this doesn't seem like blasphemy! It does a bit to me, but in reality, these diamonds are manufactured industrial diamonds.

I'm interested to hear others thoughts on this.

Jacob

[Scott Winners]

What are the pros and cons of both methods? Of course, time is the big con of hand sharpening, but if you prefer hand sharpening, have you found some ways to minimize the time that it takes? I don't have lots of time to devote to sharpening, so I would like to make an informed choice. I have not purchased the wheel yet. It is a significant investment.

Jake

TL DR. One of my resolutions for 2021 was to stay out of sharpening threads. It will be the same for 2022, but I haven't made the resolution yet.

I use a six inch grinder (should have bought an 8") for hollow grinding at 25 degrees, and hand sharpen usually at 30 degrees. Once you have a grinder, get a 40 grit Norton wheel from Lee Valley or similar. Saves a lot of time.

For chisel backs, and plane iron back, you only have to do it once. I wore out a 300 grit diamond stone building a set of Baileys from rust buckets. It was worth it, once, but never again. If you just have to build up your shop from vintage not square iron, I was there once upon a time too, no judgement zone, but get something cheap and coarse to use before the 300 grit diamond. I am pretty sure you can get 60 and 80 grit Norton stones online to get your vintage irons ready to meet a 300 grit diamond plate.

I haven't needed a tormek yet. On my lathe I just learned to use a skew for both planing and that other major cut it can do and skipped the sharpening turning tools rabbit hole. I do spindles only. If you want to make bowls, you will need money and time and tooling.

Right now this minute my 1/2 inch chisel has been sharpened at 30 degrees so many times I have no (25 degree) hollow left, but I am keeping it sharp enough frequently enough and I don't have time to rehollow it at 25 degrees right now. Maybe next week, right now I have work to do.

What I do suggest for new artisans is get a few chisels in a few different configurations to work out what feels good in your hand. If your favorite shape ends up being O1 or A2 or PMV11 doesn't matter, they all have their plusses and minuses. The point is to find out what works good for you and then work with whatever steel it comes in.

FWIW I did read enough to agree with who ever said cheap chisels are for scraping glue off. I have a set of cheap chisels exactly for glue lines. Go find a vintage chisel that says "Sheffield" on it for 5 bucks and put some time into that one, it will be worth your trouble. Box store chisels with the plastic handles at $15 for a set of five are for practicing your technique on before you buy your first good chisel now, and scraping glue lines for the rest of your life.

You are ready to go buy your first good chisel. Live long and prosper.

PS: I resolve for 2022 to stay out of sharpening threads on SMC dot com.

[Scott Winners]

One other thing that Derek was getting at and hopefully someone said straight out. It doesn't matter what grit you sharpen to. What matters is the surface of the wood after you are done. I am "happy enough" with the surfaces I get sharpening to 4000 grit diamond, no stropping, and occasionally sanding with 220 grit or pulling out a card scraper. But I finish, mostly, with oil and waxes.

You certainly may sharpen to 30k grit on water stones if it is important to you, and it may be important to you. What matters is not the grit you sharpen to, but the surface your tools leave behind. If you are dead set on clear film finishes like shellac or polyurethane or varnish 4k may not be sharp enough. You may need to use isopropyl or acetone to lift dust out of wood pores before you apply finish. If you are going to paint a thing, you may very well find sharpening to 600 grit is more than adequate. Learn to adjust your chipbreakers so they are as close as possible to the edges on your plane irons.

One of the users here has a sig line "sharp solves all manner of problems" and I agree, but sharp in not enough to cover fundamentals. If your fundamentals are good, sharp does indeed solve all manner of problems.

Good luck and best wishes.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

For chisels and plane irons: Hollow grind primary bevel on Tormek, general purpose stone and add secondary bevel with Lie-Nielsen honing guide on 1200 grit diamond stone followed by 4000 grit and 8000 grit Norton (which I already have so might as well use it if it works. Flatten cheap chisels on the side of the Tormek general purpose stone followed by stones mentioned previously. Flatten backs of quality chisels and plane irons by hand only.

Secondary bevel? I am able to free hand off the Tormek because of the hollow grind. This means that I am not using a secondary bevel, but, I will have a small shiny spot near the edge and then again at the other side of the concave bevel. Find some grits that work for you. I go directly to a shapton 5K and then my 15K. I think that Derek said that he goes directly to the 1K and then moves up. Take a peek with an eye loop (magnifier).

The point of the hollow grind for me is that I do not need to use a jig and use a "secondary bevel". Admittedly, we might be saying the same thing for secondary bevel since I am not sharpening the entire bevel.

Because I can free hand off this, I can do very fast touch-ups and get back to work.

[John C Cox]

The absolute fastest way I have of flattening backs is a 2' Granite surface plate and sticky back aluminum oxide sandpaper. I yank the paper and replace as soon as the cut starts to slow down. On a hardware store chisel, I would estimate a solid hour each, give or take. Most of the high end chisels that advertise flat backs are generally very good and don't need any work... The cheapies... Ugh. Get out the dremel to buzz the humps.

Now... The question I have is... Do you actually need the back flattened for the work you are doing? I'm commonly using chisels for paring, which means I want it to register properly and not dive/climb in a cut... I like a flat back, so that's how I prep them. I think if you're chopping waste, not so much...

I've bought a lot of used/vintage chisels, and exactly zero have come in with a properly flat back unless I bought them from a seller who flattens them as a service. I think that says a lot... Every single 100+ year old chisel shows up with back some flavor of out of whack... That leads me to believe it was not a ubiquitous practice.

[Rafael Herrera]

I've bought a lot of used/vintage chisels, and exactly zero have come in with a properly flat back unless I bought them from a seller who flattens them as a service. I think that says a lot... Every single 100+ year old chisel shows up with back some flavor of out of whack... That leads me to believe it was not a ubiquitous practice.

Perhaps the lack of attention to that detail should tell you that woodworkers of old didn't give a hoot how properly flat a chisel back was.

[Jim Koepke]

Every single 100+ year old chisel shows up with back some flavor of out of whack... That leads me to believe it was not a ubiquitous practice.


Perhaps the lack of attention to that detail should tell you that woodworkers of old didn't give a hoot how properly flat a chisel back was.

Many of my old chisels/planes appeared to have gone through hands beyond just one owner. Often blades were run over a coarse grinder and the sellers called that "razor sharp."

On the other hand, some of my old tools came with only a need for a quick honing.

This tells me the ratio of knowledgable users 100+ years ago to amateurs with tools was likely low. Anyone can buy an edge tool. Not everyone who owns one knows how to properly care for it.

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

Now... The question I have is... Do you actually need the back flattened for the work you are doing? I'm commonly using chisels for paring, which means I want it to register properly and not dive/climb in a cut... I like a flat back, so that's how I prep them. I think if you're chopping waste, not so much...

I've bought a lot of used/vintage chisels, and exactly zero have come in with a properly flat back unless I bought them from a seller who flattens them as a service. I think that says a lot... Every single 100+ year old chisel shows up with back some flavor of out of whack... That leads me to believe it was not a ubiquitous practice.

Flattening the back is not for the purpose of registration. That thousandth of an inch won't be noticable while paring.

The back needs to be flat to be honed properly. If there is a hollow at the cutting edge only the edges of the edge will get sharp. You need a flat surface to get an even edge.

It is also plausible that the old timers did something similar to the ruler trick, and maybe put a shaving or something under the chisel back so they are only polishing the cutting edge instead of taking the time to polish the back.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Flattening the back is not for the purpose of registration. That thousandth of an inch won't be noticable while paring.

The back needs to be flat to be honed properly. If there is a hollow at the cutting edge only the edges of the edge will get sharp. You need a flat surface to get an even edge.

It is also plausible that the old timers did something similar to the ruler trick, and maybe put a shaving or something under the chisel back so they are only polishing the cutting edge instead of taking the time to polish the back.

Thank you Jason! If you do not flatten the back, you probably will not get it sharp UNLESS you add a back-bevel to the chisel. This is also why you do not need the entire back to be flat.

[steven c newman]

Something for Andrew to drool over....
471168
Throw a couple "Bigs", too....
471169

Shop is an E.O.E.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

You are a bad bad man Stevn! :D

That is a lot of chisels. Very nice indeed.

[steven c newman]

Got them all put back in the rack...
471215
For now...

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Nice. I really like your storage...

[Jon Snider]

One other thing that Derek was getting at and hopefully someone said straight out. It doesn't matter what grit you sharpen to. What matters is the surface of the wood after you are done. I am "happy enough" with the surfaces I get sharpening to 4000 grit diamond, no stropping, and occasionally sanding with 220 grit or pulling out a card scraper. But I finish, mostly, with oil and waxes.

You certainly may sharpen to 30k grit on water stones if it is important to you, and it may be important to you. What matters is not the grit you sharpen to, but the surface your tools leave behind. If you are dead set on clear film finishes like shellac or polyurethane or varnish 4k may not be sharp enough. You may need to use isopropyl or acetone to lift dust out of wood pores before you apply finish. If you are going to paint a thing, you may very well find sharpening to 600 grit is more than adequate. Learn to adjust your chipbreakers so they are as close as possible to the edges on your plane irons.

One of the users here has a sig line "sharp solves all manner of problems" and I agree, but sharp in not enough to cover fundamentals. If your fundamentals are good, sharp does indeed solve all manner of problems.

Good luck and best wishes.

Scott, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a resolution burned with a consecutive post before! 😀😃