Baby Super Surfacer Rebuild

[Keegan Shields]

Picked this Ryobi SL-250 super surfacer for $100 a few months back. Motor and gear reduction seem to be in good shape. It came with 3 blade/chip breaker combos which was nice.

470486


Had a bunch of rust so I took it apart, removed most if the rust with citric acid, and polished up the columns on my MIDI lathe.

470487

470488

Now the $64,000 question - what are the options for a new drive belt? This one is pretty hard and I remember Mark mentioning a new belt was around $1K. Are there any options available for these smaller units? Does Marunaka make a appropriate sized version? Looks like www.rivarenzo.it (http://www.rivarenzo.it/en/slicer-belts-5) might have some replacement options.


I don't think there is any effective reconditioning that can be done. Another option might be some kind of rubber coating but that wouldn't solve the hardened belt problem. Any suggestions would be helpful.

[Ronald Blue]

Is the belt endless? There are many many types of conveyor belting out there. Just a thought. The belt has to grip the work I'm guessing to power it through. Spit balling here because I have no idea what it actually has to be.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mark got me a new drive belt for mine, if you want a replaceable knife setup I would order it through Mark also. Mark is fast and effective and very helpful.

My machine was pretty expensive to get up, running, and modernized but when you start finishing small parts in
seconds it is worth it immediately. I did about a week’s worth of hand planing in 6 hrs a few weeks ago.

[Keegan Shields]

Thanks Brian,

A big Marunaka with auto return is definitely on my bucket list. Your Maka and Marunaka blog/posts have been super helpful.

If I can get this one up an running I figured I would use it for box/drawer/chair parts.

[Brian Holcombe]

Glad to hear that they have been helpful! The surfacer is fantastic, I ran ash, mahogany and yellow cedar last week, completely tearout free without even minor concern for grain direction.

[Mark Hennebury]

The belts are expensive for these machines because the belts are made in one piece, they are not joined/ spliced. Years ago I looked at getting the belts made locally, sent a belt off to a North American manufacturer and was told that they could not make one-piece belts, that It is a specialized process, requiring specific equipment. so I have just purchased them from Japan. Best to just bite the bullet on the belt and get the correct one, the belts last a long time and do a great job.

[Keegan Shields]

Thanks Mark! Are the belts a standard size or do you need the dimensions for a quote?

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Keegan, Not sure that I can help you, you may have to contact Ryobi, I did ask Marunaka once a few years back and if I recall they told me that they only supplied belts for their machines. I will check back on my emails from them and see if I can find it. You may find that Makita, Hitachi and Ryobi belts are probably all the same size for the small machines, so they may be interchangeable, which would make it easier to get one. I will see what I can find out.

[Richard Coers]

You might try a good cleaning with Simple Green, it works on my Makita super surfacer.

[Keegan Shields]

Thanks Richard. I will give that a try. Did you clean it on the machine or take it off and soak it?

[Mark Gibney]

Those machines look incredible! - I just checked out some youtube videos.
They seem to work fantastically well, but I can only imagine they take a huge amount of work to dial in.
They also strike me as a machine that either works perfectly or not at all.
And what sort of professional woodworkers use them?

[Jim Becker]

Mark, on your last question, it's clear to me that a maker who wants hand planed surfaces but needs time savings for production work is likely the biggest audience for this kind of amazing tool. Brian Holcomb has one and that just reinforces my point of view. Brian just posted a short video in the CNC section that is worth watching...check out the surface of the board near the end of that little video. It's downright shiny from being shaved so cleanly. I'd never even known about these tools until Brian got his and it's nice to see there are several 'Creekers who have them based on this thread!

[Brian Holcombe]

My machine was easy to dial in, once all the previous hack-work was eliminated and I had the replaceable knife setup ready. It’s super easy to use, and honestly pretty easy to setup since the only concern is one knife and it needs to be even across the knife block.

I had a local machine shop make one of the original knives into a knife holder for replaceable knives and also bought one from Marunaka which is made by Kanefusa. This setup is easy, it’s adjusted very similar to a handplane. The chip breaker setting is perhaps the only area where some confusion could be found but that was easy IMO.

One note, make sure the tables are very clean and I waxed mine. Any rust or bumps will scratch the work.

470595

The one made by the local shop is excellent, so I use both interchangeably. The holder has a slot cutout and a few magnets embedded which hold the knife in place while the chip breaker is adjusted.

Mark, these machines are fairly common in Japan.

Consider a scenario such a this. Recently I made a slatted door, the slats all fit into grooves. I cut the slats to size/thickness and cut the grooves slightly under size. I took four shavings per slat and got a precision fit. I did this on all the slats (150 of them) and ever single one of them fit exactly the same and the surfaces were perfectly smooth. The wood does not require a finish and my customer did not want one. The cost of consumables is significantly smaller than sanding and frankly the result is superior.

I’ve been using mine for a few months and it has cut my finishing down time dramatically and improved the result. For the life of me, I don’t understand why these aren’t extremely popular in the US.

[Richard Coers]

Thanks Richard. I will give that a try. Did you clean it on the machine or take it off and soak it?
While on the machine.

[Kevin Jenness]

I wonder why a spliced belt would not work if an oem part is not available.

[Jim Becker]

For the life of me, I don’t understand why these aren’t extremely popular in the US.

'Cause nobody knows about them. LOL I've been hanging out a long time with this woodworking thing and until you bought yours, I had never heard of such a tool.

[Mark Hennebury]

Not exactly Jim.

Supersurfacers have been around at least since the 70's, and are used around the world.

Makita, Ryobi and Hitachi made a big push to introduce them in the US in the 80's ( check fine woodworking magazines from that time)

The reason that they are not well known in North America is complex.
Maka Mortisers are not well known in North America either.

Small sections of the North American market adopt new technology and are open and progressive, but it is not commonplace.
Germany and Italy design build and employ new technology, it takes about ten years for North America to catch up?
Swing chisel mortisers are made and widely used in many European countries, by more than a dozen manufactures.
Supersurfacers are widely used in Japan, Germany and Switzerland.
Marunaka, Shinx, Heian, Takakawa, Hitachi, Makita, Ryobi, Mapo, etc. all make supersurfacers.
Maka, Centauro, Framar, Sautereau, Mastewood, Muti, Simal, Chambon, Griggio, Steton, sicar, Mesa, Multifili, Polyval, Marzani All make Swing chisel mortisers.

Supersurfacers do a great job, are fast and efficient, quite, dust free, precise and leave an incredible surface finish............. but they are expensive, require you to be extremely clean in your handling of wood, and have extremely high tolerances for tool grinding and setup. The rewards for the effort are small, noticeable to a few. It is kind of like the difference between the price of a milling machine that can hold +or- 0.001" and a machine that can handle +or- 0.0001"


I have used and rebuilt dozens of these machines over the past 40 years.

If you are driven to do the best work in the most efficient way you will you will search and find what can help you achieve your goals. It's all out there if you want to find it. Brian is one of the driven.

I learned about different machines before the internet was available, by writing letters to the Department of industry in Germany, Japan, Italy, England etc. and asking for comprehensive lists of all woodworking machinery manufactures in the country. They sent me catalogues, I scoured the pages and contacted companies for more information, catalogues, specs and prices on interesting machinery.



470648 470649 470650 470651



'Cause nobody knows about them. LOL I've been hanging out a long time with this woodworking thing and until you bought yours, I had never heard of such a tool.

[Mark Gibney]

I have to say I'm still blown away by what those machines do.
And you listed nine manufacturers. That means there is, or has been, a healthy market for them.

[Carl Beckett]

I would be careful with chemicals on rubber. Rubber tends to bloom and components break down over time, and chemicals might seem to help temporarily but can cause even more breakdown. Replacement is ideal. For refresh of the existing surface, I would start with sandpaper. This tends to break off that top slick layer (grinding is ideal, microscopically it leaves small edges of rubber that is key to getting traction)

Alternatively, and this is a real hack. But some of the smaller drum sanders use an abrasive drive belt. I purchased one cut to size once. I wonder if you could put an abrasive belt over the top of the rubber belt and have any success (its not obvious to me that it would be easy, given the different compressions, but its a thought and a cheap thing to try...)

[Mark Hennebury]

You can glue some heavy duty sand cloth, from a sanding belt, to some plywood, clamp a stop on one end of the plywood so that it wont go through the machine, then put the plywood over the belt and lower the top to the plywood, with the stop against the head, turn the feed on and apply slight downforce from the top of the machine. So the belt turns, the plywood is stationary and you sand the top of the belt . It may help you get some use out of the belt. You will of course have to thoroughly clean the dust away after.

[Jim Becker]

Not exactly Jim.

Supersurfacers have been around at least since the 70's, and are used around the world.

I have not doubt they have been around for a long time. But my statement was about the general woodworking audience (largely hobbyist in this kind of community) and I do not recall these machines coming up here prior to Brian's purchase. But my memory could be flawed...

[Mark Hennebury]

You are probably right I suppose, I can understand that they may not be of interest to a hobby woodworker, but why they are not commonplace in professional shops in North America is probably a good topic for a thread.
It is a shame because they are great machines.

The supersurfacers are of course well known to those interested in Japanese woodwork, but many others use them, companies that build musical instrument's use them, those that build church organs use them, they are used in making cedar hot tubs, windows, furniture, manufactures of wooden blinds use them, I sold one to a company that makes Birdseye, Maple flooring.



Flooring samples done on a supersurfacer.

470685

Random samples that i ran to check settings on a top and bottom cutting supersurfacer that I rebuilt about 12 years ago.
470686

[Joe Calhoon]

It’s too bad the Japanese industrial WW machines didn’t take off here. There are a few Heian tenoners, shapers, planers and jointers floating around the West coast. High quality machines.I had a Marunaka solid wood edge Bander when we built cabinets. It was as well made as the best German machines. I lust after a Japanese HC Mortiser and the little saw- tenoner like in the Ishitani videos.

[Mark Bolton]

but why they are not commonplace in professional shops in North America is probably a good topic for a thread.

My take on that is simply because on the mass market they make TOO GOOD a finish. You take a board run through any super surfacer and you are going to have to make the rest of the piece to that level. Thats not what the mass market in the US is. And we have artificially cheap fuel to power massive planers/abrasive planers, etc. Im talking mass furniture production. The trend in the US has been non-stop towards v-grooves on glue joints, randomly broken corners and edges, on and on, all to hide speed in manufacturing. Thick heavy finishes that have extreme build and bridging capacities to allow for pouring on a thick film finish, etc.. The market here for the work Brian and others like him do is a low single digit percentage of the total sales in the US even up into what most people would consider expensive furniture. The levels beyond that expensive furniture, bespoke work, etc.. are another batch of single digit percentages that more than likely on paper are borderline profitable but just love what they do.

This stuff has been true in the US for decades. Automobile technology, home heating, power, insulation, water heating, right on down the line. In a lot of those areas its because Europeans and other countries pay the true cost of energy and commodities so its not just that they are smarter, they are motivated by the true cost of resources. Look at Canada's fuel cost for gasoline compared to the US. Europe, et al'. When you start paying the true cost of energy you start to get very very efficient. We in the US have never been confronted with even the most remote true cost of energy on our worst days. So we remain lazy.

[Brian Holcombe]

It’s too bad the Japanese industrial WW machines didn’t take off here. There are a few Heian tenoners, shapers, planers and jointers floating around the West coast. High quality machines.I had a Marunaka solid wood edge Bander when we built cabinets. It was as well made as the best German machines. I lust after a Japanese HC Mortiser and the little saw- tenoner like in the Ishitani videos.

I’m also surprised by it, Japanese stuff by and large seems to be very well made and can often be smaller scale but without a lack of robustness.

Example being that wadkin DM is one of very few mortisers made which are small scale but very heavily made and robust, where that seems fairly commonplace amongst the mortisers available in Japan.

[Keegan Shields]

Belt dimensions on my Ryobi machine are 240mm wide, 16mm thick, and 1300mm long (outside length while tensioned). I read through one or two threads where the OP reached out to Ryobi/Makita and wasn't able to get a response. Without the right English speaking contact at those very large companies, that is likely a dead end.

Perhaps Marunaka has a similar sized belt that would work. There looks to be quite a bit of length/tension adjustability so the critical dimension is probably the width.

I plan to also reach out to that Italian company at the link above to see if they have a belt that will work.

Thanks for the help and ideas thus far!

[andrew whicker]

I appreciate this being brought to my attention. I've never seen this tool before. I also appreciate the time taken to introduce me to manufacturers I don't know.

Question: This machine is Ryobi, but looks really well made. Is there a year before which Ryobi is a good brand? Or do they have a heavy duty niche that is still quite high quality?

[Brian Holcombe]

Both Ryobi and Hitachi manufacture industrial tools in addition to the home center stuff.