Slider Table Saws to consider?

[Michael Drew]

I had planned to keep using my Unisaw till I move into a new home/shop where my initial thoughts were to buy one of the traditional slider type saws with a modest footprint. COVID-19 has the world upside down right now, and my building plans are on hold.

I have outgrown the capabilities of my 3hp, right tilt unisaw and thought I would add a sliding attachment to gain some precision and/or capabilities to it for the time being. Well that plan turned into a royal PITA, as I build a mobile base for saw, and the outfeed table is built into the mobile base, and is also attached to the Incra fence rails. All that will need to be heavily modified, or simply redone. It would be better to just sell this setup and start over with something new.

So the above got me thinking about buying a new cabinet saw with a slider attachment, thinking the Euro type sliders were much more costly. For some reason or other, I assumed the sliders were in the +10k range. Now I see they are in the same price range as the cabinet saw setup I'm looking at, 5K-7K.

I think one of the short stroke machines will fit in my garage and not take up more space than my current setup, especially considering the Incra fence, TS Sleds, Miter gauges, Taper jigs and all the other stuff I've build that goes away. The MinMax SC2C, Felder K500 or Hammer K3 Winner all take up the max footprint I could accommodate.

I'm only just now starting to seriously look into these machines. Frankly, I've never operated one, so this is kind of a new journey. I don't know what I don't know at this point.... Anything I should be aware of? Are there other manufactures I should be looking at?

I have a pretty random need for tools/machines. I break down sheet goods with a track saw, usually, then do a final rip on the TS. I prefer to work with hardwoods verse sheet goods, but do end up working with both.

Freight to my location will also be a big issue, and may drive my final machine choice.

[Lisa Starr]

Mike, I took the journey you're looking at now. I too, needed to move on from my big 3 hp traditional style cabinet saw. I too, looked at sliding attachments and came to the same conclusion. After lots of coaching and help from all great people here on SMC , I was able to determine a short stroke slider would fit in my shop and would fit my needs. I took the plunge, and chose to order the SC2C from Minimax, though I purchased it through a dealer.

It was delivered in July and I couldn't be happier with it. You will have to learn to approach cuts differently, as that it just how a slider is. I probably do well over 95% of my cuts with the wagon and the remainder with the fence to the right of the blade. Once you get used to it, you'll wonder why you waited so long.

Hammer was a close second when I had narrowed down my choices, but I felt I wanted a few of the features available on the SC2C.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes, you’ll love having a slider.

I have the Hammer B3 Winner with the 1250mm sliding table which will crosscut a sheet of plywood, mine also has an outrigger, and a tilting spindle shaper with flip up power feeder.

That’s the nice thing about Felder/Hammer, you can have the exact machine you want built for you.

I would never go back to a cabinet saw……Regards, Rod.

[Richard Coers]

I owned a short stroke Griggio when I was in business. My advice is that if you have a lot of jigs and fixtures for you present tablesaw, DON'T sell it. Shoving a huge slider to cut tiny pieces of stock is not fun. There were no table slots in the Griggio and not in the Minimax combo I have now. Also make sure the machine you narrow down to, has a very accurate way to relocate the crosscut fence. Many of the lower end fences need to be checked every time you put it back on.

[Jim Becker]

Any of the machines you mention would be a fine addition to your shop and honestly, there is both good about them and bad about them relative to converting over from a cabinet saw. On the good side, the short stroke machine are a lot easier to use like a cabinet saw for some operations. That can help one be more comfortable with the idea while learning to reap the benefits. On the bad side, there's less pressure to "change one's ways" and that could delay reaping the benefits. :)

I'm eyeing an SC-3C for when I get a new shop building up. For the majority of the work I do, the shorter wagon will provide everything I need and it will be a few shekels less money than getting another 8'6" slider like I had in my old shop. (I sold it prior to moving here because I didn't want to move it twice and pay for storage for as much as a year...it would not fit in my temporary shop space) If I happen to need to rip a piece of sheet goods, like you mentioned, I can just pull out my track saw. But that's not something I even do very often and it's hard for me to lift the stuff up on a table saw of any kind at this point. I could probably be fine with the SC-2C for the majority of the work, but the packaging of the SC-3C is more favorable as it includes as standard a number of things that I do not want to give up or pay a lot of extra money for.

Like anything, supply chain is going to affect any kind of decision on machines like this right now...for equivalent functionality (assuming similar specifications and configurations), the one that can ship sooner gives it an edge for a buy. You do bring up a good point relative to freight, however, given your location "beyond the great white north".

There have been many threads, BTW, about the "why" around true sliders. Hopefully, you've found some of them and have benefitted from the dialog.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Michael

The first question I would ask is what you plan to cut - 4x8 sheets or solid wood? If the latter, you can get a short stroke slider and keep it simple. If the former, then you are into long wagons plus scoring blades.

I am a hobbiest working solid wood only - and very happy with a Hammer K3 and 1250 wagon (it cuts about 1350) and without a scoring blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ed Mitchell]

Good info above. I noticed you mentioned max footprint...if space is in short supply, you'll want to consider the throw of any slider you buy. Also, some brands require the wagon to be at the extreme edge of it's stroke in order to make a blade change, so if you were thinking, "Well, I don't have enough space to move the wagon all the way back, but I don't need to cut stuff that big, so it's OK", well, now you know you might well need to. Check with the mfrs you're considering.

[Jim Becker]

Ed makes a good point about blade changing...the space to move the wagon to the extreme is requires.

That said, someone else recently made a very astute comment in a thread (which I don't recall the specifics of) and that was relative to ripping with and without a slider wagon. And that comment pointed out (correctly) that it takes the same amount of "length space" to rip an 8' board with a true slider or with a cabinet saw. That's regardless of whether one is using a rip fence or a slider wagon. The infeed and outfeed space is the same, in general. So that means regardless of saw type, one has to accommodate work space for material handling that matches the kind of work the person does.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... but I felt I wanted a few of the features available on the SC2C.

What features of the SCM tipped the scales for you?

[Lisa Starr]

Malcolm, The scoring unit being part of the base package rather than an add on was the biggest one. I also liked the idea of working with a dealer. They could check the availability of various configurations I was considering and advise me on the various available upgrades. In the end, the unit I chose was going to be available in just a couple of weeks, though that wasn't a deciding factor, just a bonus.

[Erik Loza]

Scoring is common on most configurations of the K3 that we bring into the US, BTW. Also, any Felder USA sales rep can can tell anyone, with total certainty, exactly what is available and approximately when it will be here, on any machine in our production pipeline. We all receive email updates with this information several times per week or even daily. :)

Erik

[Paul J Kelly]

Michael,

I owned a short stroke sliding table saw for 15 years that could crosscut a sheet good. Before that I had many cabinet saws in my home shop and when I was making custom doors in a local shop as a kid. I will never go back to a cabinet saw.

I feel that the safety conversation around a Saw Stop saw is flawed in many ways, and I find a sliding table saw safer overall because of where you stand 90% of the time while you operate it.

I agree with Richard. If the saw you select does not have a "t-slot" in the slider, I would select a saw that did. Using a Fritz and Franz jig on the slider adds significantly to the safety I was talking about earlier.

I just upgraded to a dream saw. It has a 10' slider.

Before you bash the size issue. I have a 20'x20' shop. I live in a warmer climate, so I can back the saw's sliding table right against the garage door. If I need to use the stroke on the saw, I can open up the garage door and I have no issues at all. I have a ton of machines in the shop and I make it work.

I am a Felder/Hammer fan. But I also like the SCM group stuff too.

For a home, first sliding table saw, I would buy:

-A single phase machine - much better resale
-The longest sliding table you can afford - a 9' slider makes sheet goods and straight line ripping a breeze!
-An outrigger table - budget willing
-Scoring if you do a ton of sheetgoods.
-You may be able to pick a smaller "rip" width on the saw because the functionality is different - that may make the saw footprint smaller than a 52" rip cabinet saw
-Now this is a luxury, but an over arm dust 'hood' makes for more joy in the shop

I found an amazing deal on a gently used newer model saw.

DO IT!

PK
PKwoodworking

[Jacques Gagnon]

Michael,

Having received a new Hammer B3 slider (saw and spindle) about three months ago, here are a few general comments that complement the feedback you already received.

- my new slider has the same rip capacity (48+ inches to the right of the blade) than my old cabinet saw (3 hp - left tilt), yet it takes about 12 inches less space to the left of the blade;

- I had installed a "wood extension" (a piece of oak bolted to the side of the left wing) on my cabinet saw that was meant to support the crosscut sled. This "extension" stuck out about 20 inches in front of the saw. My slider has a 2 meter (80 inches) carriage and the beam extends about 16 inches, so not much difference in terms of space;

- the other end of the beam sticks out about 12 inches and does not pose a problem for me since it provides more support in terms of outfeed (it also works well for other functions, as I have a saw-spindle machine)

- the carriage is a great feature for me; it not only does most of the work in terms of moving the wood into the blade but also provides an extremely easy way to produce a straight line cut on any piece of wood;

- I love the fact that my hands are away from the spinning blade and that I am never in the trajectory of a possible kickback;

- When going the european slider way, one has to "unlearn" a few things, but as Jim said earlier it is a good opportunity rather than a hinderance (in my view);

- The ability to easily produce square cuts continues to impress me. Yes I do have to handle the outrigger table but I find it easier to do than moving around the large crosscut plywood table I had before. The new steel table is easier to handle and takes less space to store.

Although it is still a recent change I am convinced that I would never go back to a traditional cabinet saw.

With regards to freight, I would suspect (and hope) that the price differential between a crate containing a cabinet saw and one containing a slider would not be huge. Both scenarios involve bulky, heavy items. But, I have been wrong before :D.

You are asking yourself the right questions and members in this forum have a lot of knowledge to contribute - continue to take advantage of this.


Regards,

Jacques

[Michael Drew]

Thanks for all the input. And I'm working on a list of questions for you Lisa.

Regarding space needs, my garage is a two car space that's roughly 26' square, and I need to move all the machines to one side in the summer months when one of my cars comes out of winter storage. I also need to move stuff around in the winter months so I can use one bay periodically to maintain our two other rigs. I've resisted the urge to get larger, industrial grade type machines due to this space limitation, but my TS has grown in size quite a bit anyway. Whatever I buy next, I will need to build a mobile base for it, and figure out how to incorporate an outfeed table and accessory storage.

The next home I build will have a dedicated woodworking shop. Well, assuming the world moves on from the current lunacy and building costs come back down. My original building cost estimates were $250 per square foot, now I'm being told to budget for $400.

The one major difference that I can see, and am muddling over, is the placement of the outfeed table and work bench(s). With my cabinet saw, the outfeed table/assembly table is directly behind the saw. The sliders will require these to be placed to the right side of the blade to accommodate the sliding table and/or wagon. And, I still need to have roughly 60" of clearance to the left side of the blade. I'm using some masking tape on the floor now to sort through this.

I have searched many through many threads on this site and they have been helpful. I've also been surfing YouTube.

Other than Felder/Hammer and MinMax, are there other manufactures? Grizzly? (I've not ever owned a Grizzly tool before).

I read somewhere that these machines need to be special ordered for Dado use? Something about the standard arbor size being too short? Is that really a thing with sliders?

[Jacques Gagnon]

Thanks for all the input. And I'm working on a list of questions for you Lisa.

Regarding space needs, my garage is a two car space that's roughly 26' square, and I need to move all the machines to one side in the summer months when one of my cars comes out of winter storage. I also need to move stuff around in the winter months so I can use one bay periodically to maintain our two other rigs. I've resisted the urge to get larger, industrial grade type machines due to this space limitation, but my TS has grown in size quite a bit anyway. Whatever I buy next, I will need to build a mobile base for it, and figure out how to incorporate an outfeed table and accessory storage.

The next home I build will have a dedicated woodworking shop. Well, assuming the world moves on from the current lunacy and building costs come back down. My original building cost estimates were $250 per square foot, now I'm being told to budget for $400.

The one major difference that I can see, and am muddling over, is the placement of the outfeed table and work bench(s). With my cabinet saw, the outfeed table/assembly table is directly behind the saw. The sliders will require these to be placed to the right side of the blade to accommodate the sliding table and/or wagon. And, I still need to have roughly 60" of clearance to the left side of the blade. I'm using some masking tape on the floor now to sort through this.

I have searched many through many threads on this site and they have been helpful. I've also been surfing YouTube.

Other than Felder/Hammer and MinMax, are there other manufactures? Grizzly? (I've not ever owned a Grizzly tool before).

I read somewhere that these machines need to be special ordered for Dado use? Something about the standard arbor size being too short? Is that really a thing with sliders?

Michael:

I do not know about other manufacturers, but the dado option needs to be specified at the time of order for Hammer/Felder machines.

J.

[Brian Burns VT]

Michael, are you planning to rip on this saw as well as using the slider capacity? I work in a small (8-10 people) production shop and we have a Hammer K3L as well as a Felder 700 shaper. They both get a decent amount of use and abuse. The saw sees 750-1000 hours a year and the shaper probably 400-500 hours just so you have an idea. I don't think I'd recommend going down the Felder family route based on our experience though because of chronic electrical problems on both machines. These started well before we logged a ton of hours on either fwiw. The shaper has been much worse (it's got a lot more going on than the saw) but both have frequently had their red, plastic 'off' switches fail among other things. Parts aren't expensive but diagnostics sometimes involve getting Felder on the phone to track down the exact issue/cause with a volt meter which means not running tools in the shop so we can be on the phone while this is going on etc. Felder does a great job with this so no complaints there but it seems excessive considering we have many other machines that we use just as much as these that definitely never have these issues. We are replacing the Hammer with a Minimax mostly because of age and not these issues. Just my two cents. The Hammer cuts great considering how many hours we've logged on it. I also love Euro panel saws for cutting stuff so highly recommend that part of things. Downsides (aside from electronic stuff) are proprietary arbor thus proprietary blades, it's pretty loud, dust collection not great and the functionality of ripping is marginal. Like others have said, you need to max out slider to change blades which shouldn't be a problem if you are planning to use the max throw to cut stuff in your space. It's possible that Felder has addressed these issues on their new machines. I'd want to know that before buying anything though. I got to lay my hands on all the Felder, Hammer and Minimax panel saws at AWFS this summer and they all felt great in the showroom. Just one man's experience, good luck

[Brian Burns VT]

Michael, forgot to mention no dado capacity on our Hammer

[Rod Sheridan]

Michael, forgot to mention no dado capacity on our Hammer

All modern Hammer saws are available with dado capability IF the machine is ordered with it….Rod

[Jim Becker]

I read somewhere that these machines need to be special ordered for Dado use? Something about the standard arbor size being too short? Is that really a thing with sliders?

Most of the SCM/Minimax sliders for US use are dado-capable natively and most have 5/8" arbors for the main blade that match a typical cabinet saw. Since you can get dado capability with both SCM/MiniMax and Felder/Hammer, either natively or by specification, that alone shouldn't stand in your way to choose either.

[Mike Wilkins]

Great advice from all responders. In my 16 X 32 foot shop could only fit a short stroke slider so I installed a Laguna 6 foot short slider. The limited width of my shop means that the carriage is not attached to the wagon full time; just installed when needed. it stores easily on some wall hooks. The sawing operation keeps your digits safely away from the blade for peace of mind.
I don't often rip with the slider as I have managed to shoe-horn a standard cabinet saw in the shop with a glue line rip blade on it most of the time. But ripping is not a problem if needed.

[Carl Beckett]

I transitioned to a slider from a cabinet. Some non expert thoughts:

I dont feel it takes any more, or less space. On the cabinet saw I had an outfeed that also served as a downdraft sanding table. On the slider I do not have this (am fine giving it up).

Short stroke is enough. Get a track saw to do longer pieces and sheet good breakdown. I have on occasion just used the slider to rip by feeding it through like any other saw against the fence. It works.

The fence is less important, since once the piece is positioned to the cut line it is held on the carriage and safer for it to no longer touch the fence. Over time, the
F&F jig and other layout has taken over indexing/positioning off the fence. For me at least.

Many of your cabinet saw fixtures will not work on the slider. This could be as simple as the miter slot not fitting, or in the right location, to not having the same top surface. I have been modifying some of these to be used on the slider (like box joint jig, and Incra miter), but not everyone can modify (I also have metal working equipment). Consider what jigs and fixtures you use a lot - and how you might perform that work with the slider. My tenoning jig sits in the cabinet unused, but I have switched to other equipment for tenons so hasnt been an issue.

I do believe the slider is much safer overall. That is worth a lot to me (have a sticky thumb via tablesaw accident many years ago). I let my young daughter use the slider with a little oversight. The fingers and human parts stay much farther away from the blade and the workpiece is clamped more securely. If not a slider, I would have bought a Sawstop.

I tend to leave the outrigger on 100% of the time. Dont like the changeover, and I still use it for cutting longer pieces to length. Likely I could 1-2 it with a battery circ saw to rough length then finish on the slider using only the carriage. You will decide for your own workflow habits.

My saw threw the scoring belt a couple times which was a royal pain to get back on. So it stays off for periods of time. (again if you have a good track saw you might work with sheet goods less and less)

I have to say, I wasnt sure at first. Even after having it for a short time. But over time, with some learning and adjustment in my thinking and process, I will never go back to a cabinet saw unless its my only option.

$.02

Oh, and a dado blade. Research what can work on your slider. I still do not have a great solution (am curious what dado blade others are using on their slider?)

[Ed Mitchell]

am curious what dado blade others are using on their slider?

I have a Hammer slider and I'm using this Forrest dado stack:
https://www.forrestblades.com/dado-king/

[Rod Sheridan]

Carl, I’m using an FS Tools dado stack that I also use on the shaper…..Regards, Rod.

[Brian Holcombe]

Martin, Kölle and Bäuerle :D

[Leigh Betsch]

One benefit of the slider that I never hear is that when you aren’t using the saw the wagon can be centered so footprint is reduced considerably. You still have to provide full stroke space but when you aren’t stroking the wagon, this space is open for walk space or other use. Where a typical cabinet saw the outfeed table is always taking up the space. In my past shop I have also used the outrigger pushed up to my bandsaw to be used as the bandsaw out feed table. Again it gets slid out of the way when not needed. So in much of the time I have lots of walk or usable space around the slider saw.

[Matthew Hills]

Michael,
I'm enjoying the discussion in the thread.
For making a slider work in a shared-use garage, I thought this video was helpful to see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHGxGd9j0MI&lc=UgxuQMxIDHfcbNN0Did4AaABAg

[Michael Drew]

Merry Christmas everyone!

Again, thanks for the input. Many of my concerns have been mitigated with your help. I'm on a mission now. Next week I'll see which manufactures can supply me a machine. Not sure if the usual sources for tools and machines in my state sell these sliders or not. I hope they do, otherwise, freight will kill me.

Pretty much sold on getting one with the outrigger. My top two contenders at this point are the Hammer Winner (79X48) and the MiniMax SC2C. The Felder K500 is also a favorite, but most likely outside my price point. (I love the option to get blade angle and height indication in the handles.)

Besides having the wagon to walk around, I need to consider the actual table. If it protrudes too far to the front and / or rear, that will drive me nuts having to constantly walk around it. I have a support piece on my tables saw now, that sticks out about 12" to support my crosscut sled. That damn thing constantly tries to gorge me.....

Brian Burns - I'm disappointed to hear about electrical issues with Felder. I was leaning towards the Felder K500, thinking it might be a higher quality machine than others. Thanks for sharing. Living in a remote area, it's important that my stuff work. It's time consuming, and expensive, to have to troubleshoot and replace parts. One good thing about my 'old' Unisaw, I have not had to fix anything. It just works, every time.

I know it's critical to a slider's operation that it be level. This will be a challenge, as it simply cannot remain fixed. I'll have to figure out how to build a mobile base with four corner leveling feet. My garage floor has a center drain, and is sloped to the drain. (in colder climates, like where I live, you do not slope the floor to run out the OH doors, cause the water will freeze).

[Brian Holcombe]

I would buy Minimax over felder.

[Jim Becker]

Michael, both SCM/MiniMax and Felder/Hammer are not tools that you'll generally find in "stores", although there are some distributors for the former out there. Erik can point you to the Felder resource for your geography and I suggest you contact Sam Blasco for SCM/Minimax. He's the brand champion for the US and physically not to far away from Austin TX. Erik is coincidentally in the Austin area, too. IE...shipping is part of the process. Freight isn't as much as you'd expect compared to the cost/value of the tool, however.

[Rod Sheridan]

The Hammer machines also have gauges available in the hand wheels, Felder and Hammer have many options available to build the exact machine you want.

My Hammer B3 Winner was custom built for me with the options I wanted such as dado, short stroke slider with outrigger, precision mitre index system etc. I also have the 30mm shaper spindle as well as the 1 1/4” spindle….Very handy as I can share tooling between the saw and shaper….Regards, Rod.

[Derek Cohen]

I have been very happy with my Hammer machines, however one of the reasons I purchased them in the first place is that there is a Felder agent in my town, while Minimax are not represented. Felder have been fantastic with support when needed, ensured that the machines (slider, combo jointer/thicknesser, bandsaw) were set up perfectly at the outset), and promptly respond to my phone calls and emails. They are like family.

Minimax may or may not turn out a better product, but peace of mind is something which cannot be purchased. This is the tipping point in a close decision such as Felder vs Minimax.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark e Kessler]

Michael, are you planning to rip on this saw as well as using the slider capacity? I work in a small (8-10 people) production shop and we have a Hammer K3L as well as a Felder 700 shaper. They both get a decent amount of use and abuse. The saw sees 750-1000 (tel:750-1000) hours a year and the shaper probably 400-500 hours just so you have an idea. I don't think I'd recommend going down the Felder family route based on o


Pretty sure that Hammer saw wasn’t designed to see that many hours, you should be in the 900 series min with those hours and number of peeps…

[Michael Drew]

Michael, both SCM/MiniMax and Felder/Hammer are not tools that you'll generally find in "stores", although there are some distributors for the former out there. Erik can point you to the Felder resource for your geography and I suggest you contact Sam Blasco for SCM/Minimax. He's the brand champion for the US and physically not to far away from Austin TX. Erik is coincidentally in the Austin area, too. IE...shipping is part of the process. Freight isn't as much as you'd expect compared to the cost/value of the tool, however.

Thanks for the contact info. I'll be making a few phone calls this week. Large freight to AK generally involves a barge from Tacoma. Most other shipping methods involve air, even FedEx/UPS "ground" shipments go air.

The store I get my hardware and specialty woods from also sells wood working tools and machines, like Festool and SawStop, Powermatic (not sure about SCM or Hammer). They generally place an order for machines every month, so the freight costs are not too bad going through them. Otherwise, I'm kinda on my own figuring out the logistics.

Rod Sheridan, - good to know about the Hammer options. Do you have any pictures of how you set up your Winner with outfeed and dust control?

[Brian Burns VT]

Mark Kessler, fully agree with you on the hours logged. We've been very busy so just a data point and context. Love the functionality of the saw beyond the specific complaints

[Greg Quenneville]

To dust off an old phrase, I think of Felder as “Saw maker to the gentry”. As opposed to “the trade”.

I have had three Felder saws and been satisfied, but I am a hobbyist. I would hate to have to make a living cutting sheets with one, for the reasons already mentioned. Perhaps the 900 series or Format 4 might be better, but by then you are close to the price range of a Martin. For a one man custom studio type shop a Felder would be fine.

A word on blades: there are other sources for blades for Felder or other Euro saws with the 30mm arbor. Tenryu is one, and well regarded by U.S. Felder owners.

[Jim Becker]

I suspect most major quality blade manufacturers produce blades with the Felder-compatible bore and pin holes. You will not find them on "retail shelves" but they are either orderable in-stock or special order, depending on the manufacturer/vendor chosen.

[Joe Hendershott]

Don't rule out used 4e. Just happen to know a guy with a nearly new one about to go on the market :cool:.

[Mark e Kessler]

The 900 series on up is definitely more trade oriented, I had the 700 and would not buy that one if i was in still in business, the 940 is a pretty beg step in build. If i needed more than a k940 I would be looking at Altendorf and Martin that said there are more than likely thousands of Felder saws of all varieties in service all over the world

As far as blades, I have all Freud industrial which I believe makes some of the Felder blades but there is another company that makes some of the blades for Freud and Felder as well, can’t remember the name right now…

[Mark e Kessler]

I believe the felder pin holes are 2/9/46, most industrial saw blades come bored for Martin, Felder, Altendorf and others, you can spot them as these are usually double drilled or elongated holes and the patterns they cover are 2/7/42, 2/9/46 & 2/10/60, one of the nice things about the k940 and up is that the pins actually go into the arbor and not through the plate so you only need the 30 mm bore.

[Erik Loza]

Pretty sure that Hammer saw wasn’t designed to see that many hours…

This is correct ^^^

Based on that previous statement, no surprise that the machine is having issues. That's like asking a Toyota Tacoma to be a Tundra. It's not the right truck if you plan to be towing trailers every day. And to be fair, no other machine of similar spec would do any better. Jumping brands could be a choice but if someone is thinking that something of similar spec/price point from a different manufacturer will somehow perform better, they will be disappointed. Bottom line: "Production" means you need a bigger machine.

Also, I have lost track of how many times a pro shop and I have been having a conversation and I tell them, "Based on your needs, there are the machines I would suggest...", and they still buy something too small. Big eyes, small budget/couldn't wait so took what was in stock/etc. So the machine works OK for a while but customer is disappointed in the long run. Is that really the machine's fault? Not saying this is the case with gentleman here but it's a pretty common scenario.

Erik

[Joe Jensen]

I switched from cabinet saw to long stroke slider and shaper combo in 2010. I would hate to go back. So many things are much more precisely done on my slider. Lots of good advice here. One I'd emphasize is support. I have not needed tech support for my three (KF700SP, F700Z, and 540 bandsaw) Felder machines. My sales rep is based in California and I am in Arizona. I have ordered bits and things and he has always been super responsive. If I were moving regions and had to buy new my #1 consideration would be support. I have a friend in Canada who has a really nice shop. Martin, SCM, Griggio, etc. The support he gets from all is downright horrible. Brand new SCM 24" bandsaw missing a part needed to tension the blade. After 2 weeks of zero support he ended up having a local machine shop fabricate one. I would talk with sales, parts, and support techs for all companies before ordering.

[Michael Drew]

A new addition to the list - Laguna P12/5. My go-to store sells Laguna, Jet and Powermatic. Probably more money than I was looking to spend, and a bit larger than the others I've been looking at, but at least I'd have local'ish support.

[Brian Burns VT]

This is correct ^^^

Based on that previous statement, no surprise that the machine is having issues. That's like asking a Toyota Tacoma to be a Tundra. It's not the right truck if you plan to be towing trailers every day. And to be fair, no other machine of similar spec would do any better. Jumping brands could be a choice but if someone is thinking that something of similar spec/price point from a different manufacturer will somehow perform better, they will be disappointed. Bottom line: "Production" means you need a bigger machine.

Also, I have lost track of how many times a pro shop and I have been having a conversation and I tell them, "Based on your needs, there are the machines I would suggest...", and they still buy something too small. Big eyes, small budget/couldn't wait so took what was in stock/etc. So the machine works OK for a while but customer is disappointed in the long run. Is that really the machine's fault? Not saying this is the case with gentleman here but it's a pretty common scenario.

Erik


Erik, again, I totally agree with this for the saw and, for our situation, our production significantly ramped up after the purchase and so it goes. Just trying to share our experience with two machines that are in the same price and quality range as many of our other machines and they are the only machines that suffer any of these problems. It's pretty consistent and I would certainly want to know that if I were the OP about to spend a good amount of money. Again, these problems started very soon after purchase at a time when we were not logging nearly the hours on them. What would you say a comfortable number of hours/week or year a shop should be able to run a Felder F700 shaper or Hammer slider without issue? I don't feel like 10-12 hours/week for this shaper or saw is asking too
much

[Erik Loza]

Erik, again, I totally agree with this for the saw and, for our situation, our production significantly ramped up after the purchase and so it goes. Just trying to share our experience with two machines that are in the same price and quality range as many of our other machines and they are the only machines that suffer any of these problems. It's pretty consistent and I would certainly want to know that if I were the OP about to spend a good amount of money. Again, these problems started very soon after purchase at a time when we were not logging nearly the hours on them. What would you say a comfortable number of hours/week or year a shop should be able to run a Felder F700 shaper or Hammer slider without issue? I don't feel like 10-12 hours/week for this shaper or saw is asking too
much

That kind of usage shouldn't be an issue for either of those machines but there are "hobbyist hours" and then there are "production shop hours". What I observe is that home ww'ers generally maintain their equipment a lot better than that most shops. So, while something like 500 hobbyist hours on a Hammer K3 is probably no big deal, 500 shop hours would be and a K3 is definitely not geared for a production environment. Again, not quarterbacking your specific situation but just sharing what I have seen. F700s are our smallest Felder shapers and what I would categorize as an entry-level professional unit at most. Out of curiosity, what were the electrical issues you experienced?

Erik

[Michael Drew]

Probably due to the holidays, but I still have not heard from SCM reps that I've sent inquiries to. The Felder/Hammer rep and I have been bouncing emails back and forth, mostly dealing with shipping options. This is gunna be expensive.......shipping quotes are ranging between $1600 and $3500.

The Hammer saws are anticipated to arrive in California middle June or July. There are some sales going on, but if it's July before it ships, I won't mess around with it till Sept/Oct, due to my 'summer' projects that will have me busy. There is about a 2K price increase if I go with a Felder K500P over the Hammer 79/48. Not sure if it's worth it? Those Felders sure do look like fine machines though..... I'd hate to get one dirty.

I've been reading a lot of unpleasant stories about Laguna customer support, so I may just ditch that option.

[Brian Burns VT]

That kind of usage shouldn't be an issue for either of those machines but there are "hobbyist hours" and then there are "production shop hours". What I observe is that home ww'ers generally maintain their equipment a lot better than that most shops. So, while something like 500 hobbyist hours on a Hammer K3 is probably no big deal, 500 shop hours would be and a K3 is definitely not geared for a production environment. Again, not quarterbacking your specific situation but just sharing what I have seen. F700s are our smallest Felder shapers and what I would categorize as an entry-level professional unit at most. Out of curiosity, what were the electrical issues you experienced?

Erik


Erik, the stop switches on the saw have crapped out MANY times and we've been back and forth using the master power as an off switch which is annoying and unsafe probably. Currently we have the off switch on the front of the saw functioning and control it from there. The slider-side switch is out of the mix. There were a couple failures of the 'on' switch as well but those haven't reemerged forever. The shaper has had the 'off' switch go countless times but the more persistent problem is the limit switch on the up/down. When we got the machine, we used to zero out the height so that we could have easy and repeatable set ups on all of our cutters - just a height, cutter direction and fence setting for everything so operators didn't have to fuss around. After that limit switch kept crapping out, Felder told us to stop bottoming out the spindle so we no longer zero out or lower the spindle beyond what is necessary. Currently, the up/down buttons don't function (it's our third go around on this and the micro adjust 'up' button hasn't worked for a long time). We are using a 9.6V battery from a cordless drill and putting the wires in the contacts to raise and lower the spindle. It works but ain't the best for micro adjusting. More art than science I guess!

[Erik Loza]

Brian, that does sound frustrating. A few thoughts:

-The switches on Hammer machines are pretty light-duty and again, more for the home shop than seeing many actuations per day. Not surprising to me that the machine is struggling in that kind of environment. It really sounds like you need a beefier machine. I've got plenty of Felder sliders in shops and that's not a complaint I hear about.

-On the shaper, many of the same thoughts but "yes", not a good idea to bottom out the spindle unless at all necessary. Also, any time Power-Drive is involved, part of the MRO protocol should be regular inspection and cleaning of that raise/lower assembly, inspection of the limiter stops, etc. Perhaps you already are doing this.

My takeway is that you just need more robust machines.

Erik

[Michael Drew]

As suspected, holidays have many folks on vacation this week. Sam Blasco did however reach out to me and get me some basic info on the 2C and 3C. We will talk more next week. One thing of note, is the 2C does not have Dado capability. It appears that one needs to move up to the 3C to get Dado. I'll see if the 2C can be ordered with this, or if it's a hard no. But, if I do have to move to the 3C, the price point moves too. There is a $2500 jump in price between the two. At that price point, the Felder K500P is the MiniMax SC-3C closest competitor.

[Erik Loza]

Michael, be aware: An SC2 or SC3 is basically the Italian equivalent of what you already own. In other words, hobby machines. You're only switching brands, not stepping up. My honest advice is to go bigger since you are a production shop. If Italian, at least an SC4 Elite or if Felder, K500. I have a number of K500's in local shops and guys love them. Zero reliability issues.

Erik

470782

[Michael Drew]

Michael, be aware: An SC2 or SC3 is basically the Italian equivalent of what you already own. In other words, hobby machines. You're only switching brands, not stepping up. My honest advice is to go bigger since you are a production shop. If Italian, at least an SC4 Elite or if Felder, K500. I have a number of K500's in local shops and guys love them. Zero reliability issues.

Erik

470782

Thank you sir. Appreciate the input.

I should however clarify a point. I'm by no means a production shop. Weekend warrior at best, and not a very good one.... I've just outgrown my Unisaw, (along with my other machines). Long story short, I want a sliding table. I looked into the attachments, then new, higher end table saws with sliding attachments, and came to the conclusion that I should just buy a real sliding table saw.

When I retire, I do plan to spend a lot more time woodworking, and it'll be in a dedicated shop - not a two car garage. That's a couple years down the road though.

[Erik Loza]

Michael: Whoops, sorry. I got you mixed up with a different poster in another thread. Please disregard. Any of those machines should be fine for your needs. FYI that Felder has a main office and service techs on the West Coast, which I feel is an advantage. Good luck in your search.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

As suspected, holidays have many folks on vacation this week. Sam Blasco did however reach out to me and get me some basic info on the 2C and 3C. We will talk more next week. One thing of note, is the 2C does not have Dado capability. It appears that one needs to move up to the 3C to get Dado. I'll see if the 2C can be ordered with this, or if it's a hard no. But, if I do have to move to the 3C, the price point moves too. There is a $2500 jump in price between the two. At that price point, the Felder K500P is the MiniMax SC-3C closest competitor.

The SC3C also comes with a lot of the desirable accessories in the package that are extra cost with the SC2C if you buy the standard packages. That accounts for a lot of the price difference. Sam will explain that to you when you speak.

[Kevin Jenness]

If you can possibly keep your Unisaw, do so. You will be able to use all the jigs you have, rip long pieces more conveniently or set it up with a dado (which is a bit of a pain on the sliders I have used). You may be able to squeeze it in feeding opposite the slider at the end of or beside or even replacing the outfeed table.

If you have a cad program it is easy to draw and move around models of the saws and their feed paths, if not you can make a scale drawing and move cardstock models around on paper to find workable setups.

[Michael Drew]

I do not have the space for the slider, and certainly not enough for both. It's a matter of needing to move the saw, and all other machines around the garage. I'm working around a four wheeler that I use for snow removal right now.....

Good thought though, and one I already worked through.

[Michael Drew]

Sam and I have bounced emails back and forth regarding the SCM saws. The Minimax SC 2C cannot be ordered with the dado. This 'upgrade' to the other machines is a $600 option. Sam also told me the SC 3C is a beefier saw than that the 2C. It is roughly 250 pounds heavier, and has the 4.8 HP motor, verse the 3.4 HP motor on the 2C. It also comes with a second, larger miter, second support table, and a more robust outrigger. The 3C will be available this spring, whereas the Felder machines are available in August.

I think at this point in my waffling between machines, my two top contenders are the Felder K500 and SCM SC 3C. Buy once, cry once......

I'm not too impressed with either brand's standard blade guard. I know that either would drive me nuts and I'd just remove them. But I do like how both brands floating guard/dust collector set-up looks. They are quite similar, and both cost around a grand. Any thoughts from users of either? Or possibly an aftermarket device that might work better?

Once thing I do like about the Minimax saw, is that I can still use all my 10" blades and dado's - and I have many. And on paper, I think the SCM motors may have the advantage. The K500 footprint is smaller, so that's a point for Felder.

[Jim Becker]

Michael, unless something changes, I'll likely be going with the SC3C since it's what I'm used to, but either machine you are cite is excellent. It sounds like things remain consistent around SC2C and SC3C from when I last interacted with Sam, too.

Relative to the standard blade guard, I'm right there with you. I never used it on the S315WS because of it being riving knife attached. My plan is to use an overarm setup with the new saw when I buy it...I'm actually considering the Grizzly for just under $500 as it will do the job and is a pleasing color. :) It's also stand-alone so it's easy to get out of the way.

[Mike Kees]

Rod Sheridan mounted an aftermarket blade guard on his Hammer slider. There was a thread on here somewhere with pictures and how it worked out.

[Mo Ghotbi]

I've been very happy with my Hammer K3 Winner with the 79 inch stroke. It came standard with the outrigger table and the scoring motor. I've had it now for 5 years and could not be happier. Since I have room in the garage, I kept the old Grizzly cabinet saw I had mostly for dadoes. I've heard great things about the SMC machines but Felder is located near me here in Northern California and so I though tech support would be easier.

[Michael Drew]

I thought I had made my decision, but now I’m not sure. The SC 3C will be a tight fit. Also, shipping quotes are coming in about $1500 more to get the SCM machines to me, over the Felder/Hammer machines. I started this adventure with a max budget of $7500, then stretched it, stretched again….. Now I’m back to getting what I actually need, verse want. This hobby is a slippery slope…….

I checked out the Grizzley guard and found a picture of Rod Sherman's (Excelsior). Both look much better than what comes standard with either the Hammer/Felder or SCM saws. I gotta admit though, the add-on accessory guards that both companies offer looks great, assuming it can easily be piped separately from the below blade dust collection. It's nice to know there are less costly options though.

Anyone with the Hammer saws care to offer what they did with respect to blades and dado sets? I probably have at least six premium Forest and Ridge Carbide blades, all recently sharpened - plus my dado sets. I know they are 'only' 10", but it seems pretty wasteful, and costly, to peddle them and buy new blades for the Felder/Hammer machines. Is the bore actually different that 5/8"? I also understand that the saw blades for Felder/Hammer have two additional holes to prevent them from backing off when the motor brakes. Is that a true statement?

[Jim Becker]

The Hammer/Felder machines do not use 5/8" bore or even 1" bore tooling. if I"m not mistaken, it's a 30mm bore plus the two guide/index holes. Felder brand's dado solution is a little different. On the 10" vs 12"...I did used 10" blades for a bit on the MiniMax slider I had in my old shop, but eventually moved to 12" blades. it was more efficient relative to tip speed and, of course, cutting depth.

[Pat Rice]

Grizzly overarm guard worked well with my Felder K500P, I used the Forrest dado blade set with 30mm arbor hole and holes for the pins. 471105471106

[Jim Becker]

That guard worked great, Pat! Were you able to buy the Forrest Dado King pre-bored for the Felder arbor setup?

[Pat Rice]

You can buy it pre bored from Sliver Mills 471107

[Jacques Gagnon]

I thought I had made my decision, but now I’m not sure. The SC 3C will be a tight fit. Also, shipping quotes are coming in about $1500 more to get the SCM machines to me, over the Felder/Hammer machines. I started this adventure with a max budget of $7500, then stretched it, stretched again….. Now I’m back to getting what I actually need, verse want. This hobby is a slippery slope…….

I checked out the Grizzley guard and found a picture of Rod Sherman's (Excelsior). Both look much better than what comes standard with either the Hammer/Felder or SCM saws. I gotta admit though, the add-on accessory guards that both companies offer looks great, assuming it can easily be piped separately from the below blade dust collection. It's nice to know there are less costly options though.

Anyone with the Hammer saws care to offer what they did with respect to blades and dado sets? I probably have at least six premium Forest and Ridge Carbide blades, all recently sharpened - plus my dado sets. I know they are 'only' 10", but it seems pretty wasteful, and costly, to peddle them and buy new blades for the Felder/Hammer machines. Is the bore actually different that 5/8"? I also understand that the saw blades for Felder/Hammer have two additional holes to prevent them from backing off when the motor brakes. Is that a true statement?

Michael,

The approach I took with my newly acquired Hammer B3 is a hybrid solution. I had seven 10 inch blades and a Freud dado stack. I chose to keep three blades and got them rebored to 30mm + two pin holes (about 25$). The rest of the blades went with the saw (in my case the cabinet saw, 15 inch planer and 8 inch jointer ended up in my son's shop, so that was part of the "package" :D) and I ordered two blades from Felder, along with the scoring saw. Reboring involves resharpening - not a great situation for you given your blades were recently sharpened. However, a new machine is likely months away so you will still make use of those blades. The blades sold by Felder cover a fairly wide price range, some of which are as low as 28$ (current sale).

I ordered my machine with dado capability and ordered the dado stack from Felder. Both FSTools and Royce Ayr supply Felder in Canada. The architecture of the Hammer machines limits the size of "traditional dado stacks" to 6 inches (150mm). However, Euro tooling (e.g. part number 500-03-019) go up to 180mm in diameter. These groovers are more expensive than traditional dado stacks.

As for the blade guard, it is OK. Not outstanding but does the job. Upgrading to some kind of overhead system is on my list of things to look into at some point. A few members of this forum have used various approaches ranging from home made to third party (eg SharkGuard).

I hope this helps and please feel free to post more questions,

Regards,

Jacques

[Mark e Kessler]

It’s a pretty standard hole pattern some of my blades even came from amazon. I think you can run up to a 8” dado but could be wrong, you can on the k700 and k940. My dado is a ridge carbide but they can be bought from Forrest and a few other companies. You can have all the blades re-drilled by a reputable sharpener.

I wouldn’t let what you have now dictate what saw you want, sure it’s something to consider but you can sell the blades easy, the saw is much harder to sell/live with…

[Michael Drew]

Grizzly overarm guard worked well with my Felder K500P, I used the Forrest dado blade set with 30mm arbor hole and holes for the pins. 471105471106

Thanks for visual aids. I actually had a mental picture of building tables very similar to what you have there. Again, thanks for sharing!

Also, thanks so much to all the incredibly helpful input and advice from Creekers. I can't express my sincere appreciation enough.

As I learn more nuances about these machines that are unique from traditional cabinet saws, I'll make sure to add comments for the next person making this jump from a cabinet saw. There are many more 'things' to consider and be aware of than I thought, so I think it's safe to assume I'm not alone.

[Jacob Mac]

Michael,

The approach I took with my newly acquired Hammer B3 is a hybrid solution. I had seven 10 inch blades and a Freud dado stack. I chose to keep three blades and got them rebored to 30mm + two pin holes (about 25$). The rest of the blades went with the saw (in my case the cabinet saw, 15 inch planer and 8 inch jointer ended up in my son's shop, so that was part of the "package" :D) and I ordered two blades from Felder, along with the scoring saw. Reboring involves resharpening - not a great situation for you given your blades were recently sharpened. However, a new machine is likely months away so you will still make use of those blades. The blades sold by Felder cover a fairly wide price range, some of which are as low as 28$ (current sale).

I ordered my machine with dado capability and ordered the dado stack from Felder. Both FSTools and Royce Ayr supply Felder in Canada. The architecture of the Hammer machines limits the size of "traditional dado stacks" to 6 inches (150mm). However, Euro tooling (e.g. part number 500-03-019) go up to 180mm in diameter. These groovers are more expensive than traditional dado stacks.

As for the blade guard, it is OK. Not outstanding but does the job. Upgrading to some kind of overhead system is on my list of things to look into at some point. A few members of this forum have used various approaches ranging from home made to third party (eg SharkGuard).

I hope this helps and please feel free to post more questions,

Regards,

Jacques

Where did you get your blades rebored? I just bought a Hammer slider and am trying to figure out what to do with the saw blade situation. Thanks.

[derek labian]

Brand new SCM 24" bandsaw missing a part needed to tension the blade. After 2 weeks of zero support he ended up having a local machine shop fabricate one.

Same thing happened to me. I was pointed to a 3rd party store to buy the missing part.

[Jacques Gagnon]

It’s a pretty standard hole pattern some of my blades even came from amazon. I think you can run up to a 8” dado but could be wrong, you can on the k700 and k940. My dado is a ridge carbide but they can be bought from Forrest and a few other companies. You can have all the blades re-drilled by a reputable sharpener.

I wouldn’t let what you have now dictate what saw you want, sure it’s something to consider but you can sell the blades easy, the saw is much harder to sell/live with…


Mark:

My understanding is that the Hammer K3/B3/C3 are limited to around 180mm when it comes to dado function. Since the « traditional » dado stacks usually come in 6, 8 and 10 (?) inch models, the fall back becomes 6 inch stack since there does not seem to be any 7 inch dado sets readily available. Your machine can handle larger blades than my Hammer model.

With regards to blades, I concluded that reusing existing blade would be nice but that it was not a key parameter in my purchase equation.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hello Michael, I use an FS Tools dado set, bored to fit the machine. Hammer saws take a 180mm diameter dado (7"). I have a 6" dado. In Canada, Felder sell their own dado which is a carbide shaper adjustable groover to fit the saw, or Royce Ayr or FS Tool stacked dado sets.

For blades, I had most of mine bored to fit, about $20 per blade, most tooling shops will provide any of their blades bored to 30mm and bore the 2 pin holes as well.

Yes, the blades have 2 pin holes for braking.

I've attached a photo of the 2 saw guards I use, the stock Euro guard which can't be used for non through cuts, and the Excelsior which can be used for non through cuts.

For out feed I have the long extension table (illustrated and the short table. Most of the time I use the short table which does not have a leg.

Regards, Rod.

471264471265471266[ATT

[Rod Sheridan]

You can buy it pre bored from Sliver Mills 471107

Caution, 180mm maximum diameter dado for the Hammer saw......Rod.

[Pat Rice]

Good catch Rod, the Hammer can use the 6” Forrest dado set
471282

[Kevin Jenness]

I've attached a photo of the 2 saw guards I use, the stock Euro guard which can't be used for non through cuts, and the Excelsior which can be used for non through cuts.


471266[ATT

That appears to be a modified and rebranded version of the Excalibur overhead guard, which was quite decent at the price. The basket could be slid sideways or the arm pivoted 90*, and the dust pickup worked well.
https://marsonequipment.com/products/excelsior-xl-1014-overarm-blade-guard-dust-collector/

[Erik Loza]

FYI: The Felder K500 can be optioned with a tubular-style overhead guard for around $250(?). It’s not as well documented as the big swing-away guard, which is $1K-ish, but looks functionally like the guard in the above photos. Could be worth considering.

Erik

[Michael Drew]

Hello Michael, I use an FS Tools dado set, bored to fit the machine. Hammer saws take a 180mm diameter dado (7"). I have a 6" dado. In Canada, Felder sell their own dado which is a carbide shaper adjustable groover to fit the saw, or Royce Ayr or FS Tool stacked dado sets.

For blades, I had most of mine bored to fit, about $20 per blade, most tooling shops will provide any of their blades bored to 30mm and bore the 2 pin holes as well.

Yes, the blades have 2 pin holes for braking.

I've attached a photo of the 2 saw guards I use, the stock Euro guard which can't be used for non through cuts, and the Excelsior which can be used for non through cuts.

For out feed I have the long extension table (illustrated and the short table. Most of the time I use the short table which does not have a leg.

Regards, Rod.

471264471265471266[ATT

Thanks Rod!

I did a quick search on your guard, and was not able to find a vendor on the 'interweb'..... But seeing how the rest of the continent thinks freight to Alaska is by dog sled, and they charge to feed the dogs, shipping costs will more than likely be more than the actual attachment anyway.

I'm zero'ing in on the Hammer machine. The SC 3C simply takes up more floor space than I can accomodate in my current work space.

The Felder K500 is calling to me though. The extra 2 grand to 'upgrade' to it though, probably not needed for a hobiest like me.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, in Canada, King Canada dealers carry the Excelsior blade guard……Rod

[Erik Loza]

...The Felder K500 is calling to me though. The extra 2 grand to 'upgrade' to it though, probably not needed for a hobiest like me.

Just spitballing but if you don't plan to do lots of finished sheet goods, you could configure a K500 without scoring, go for the narrow (31") rip capacity, and skip micro-adjust on the rip fence to get the cost down.

Erik

[Michael Drew]

Just spitballing but if you don't plan to do lots of finished sheet goods, you could configure a K500 without scoring, go for the narrow (31") rip capacity, and skip micro-adjust on the rip fence to get the cost down.

Erik

I can live with a reduced rip capacity, as I have had 32" for many years without aggrivation, but I would like the scoring option and micro adj.

I have my Hammer 79x48 order nearly complete. I am just working through additional accessories and options with my sales rep.

I was going to order the floating blade guard/dust collection upgrade, but my rep told me it's only avalable with Felder machines. That's a bit odd.

[Erik Loza]

I can live with a reduced rip capacity, as I have had 32" for many years without aggrivation, but I would like the scoring option and micro adj.

I have my Hammer 79x48 order nearly complete. I am just working through additional accessories and options with my sales rep.

I was going to order the floating blade guard/dust collection upgrade, but my rep told me it's only avalable with Felder machines. That's a bit odd.

Gotcha, Michael. Yeah, I don't believe the tubular guard is available on the K3. Your best bet would probably be one of those aftermarket ones mentioned above. Hope this helps.

Erik

[Howard Dean]

I’m going through the same thought process. Currently live in a condo and use our roof deck as a work space. I have a portable MFT, a couple of track saws (Festool and Maffel), hand planes, routers, etc. I use TSO parallel guides to make repeat cuts. I mainly work in 6/4 and 8/4 hardwoods.

We are now building a home that will have about a 525 sq ft workshop. I was ready to pull the trigger on a Saw Stop, but then ran across the Hammer K3 Winner. I’m leaning towards a 48x48, mainly due to space considerations and the fact that I have two track saws I can use to edge joint and break down sheet goods. A concern I have is the ability to do repeat rip cuts on the Hammer using the rip fence. How solid and accurate is the fence? Is the slider even with the table? I’ve read some posts where people say that they use the slider for repeat rip cuts. But how do you ensure consistent and repeatable cuts when you need to use the fence as a guide rather than as a stop for the slider? I don’t want to have to fiddle with the saw to do this or to create jigs, otherwise I might as well just use a track saw. I want to be able to set the width using the rip fence and cut, knowing that the cuts are accurate.

[Rod Sheridan]

You use the rip fence as a rip fence.

If you buy a slider you’ll actually have a proper fence, it can be low or high, short or long.

For ripping solid wood you use it in the Sharon position where it stops just past the front of the blade, no more trapped reaction wood.

Get the slider, you’ll love it…..Regards, Rod

[Howard Dean]

Thanks Rod. Did you lower the slider to be even with the table?

[Mark e Kessler]

You want the slider above the cast usually by 5-8 thou otherwise your wood will drag on the cast, but its a personal preference, i like mine 8-10thou. Yes you can use the rip like a regular saw if you want I do on occasion but you will want to use the slide Side as much as possible. I cut everything from full sheet of ply (duh) to straight line ripping solids to cutting itty bitty tiny pieces with the use of F&F.

You won’t really need many jigs but some are helpful, F&F for sure, it can be as simple or as complicated as you like, i have a few that are clamped to the slide side and straddle the cast iron side for cutting bridal joints and one for dovetails, easy and quick to make. As far as the settings, I don’t know about the hammer line, I have a k940 which is a whole nother’ thing but the settings have never moved on me and I have slammed (by accident) full sheets of ply and 8’ long x 6-8” w of white oak multiple times against the xcut and rip multiple times with no change.

If you have never owned a slider before it is a different work flow with different methods but you will get the hang of it and wondered how you got by without it. I rarely use my festool track saw or miter box any more. Track saw is still nice to have, sometimes it’s just quicker and easier to bring the cut to the wood, the mitre box mostly just cuts up scraps for the kindling bin…

[Rod Sheridan]

No I didn’t, no reason to do that and it causes issues with sheet goods.

Right now I have a stack of ash that’s being ripped into flooring using the power feeder (I have a B3)…..Rod

[Michael Drew]

I think my order is finally complete. It took several back and forth emails with Liz Rogers (Felder/Hammer rep) to get it sorted out. She has been great help, and very patient. I also got a lot of help from Jacques Gagnon (via PM) with some of the Hammer/Felder specific options/accessories. The last item is actually an extra stop for a miter bar. I’ll most likely order a couple 12” blades, and have a couple of my 10” blades bored to fit the machine. I have a few months to get that done.

Thanks again for everyone’s help working through this process.



1 ST I Hammer K3W 79x48
1 ST 400-108 Eccentric Clamp With Clamping Shaft M 20
1 ST 410-190 Adapter Felder Eccentric Clamp
1 ST 500-109 Edging shoe
1 ST 500-110 Edging bar
1 ST 12.1.311 Alu - System - Handwheel
1 ST 503-101 Dial for saw blade angle in handwheel
1 ST DADO.6" 6" Dado King with 30mm bore and pin holes for all FELDER Serie 500/700/900 machines 0 - 109FB
1 ST 503-107 Zero clearance table insert for sliding table saw
1 ST 02.2.021 Quick Connection Reducer
1 ST 503-137 Extension for aluminum formatting sliding table with ball bearings
1 ST 503168-100 VM Anschlagklappe für Hammer 90° Anschlag 20

[Jim Becker]

Looks like you're going to have a mighty fine machine there! Congrats!

[Michael Drew]

Looks like you're going to have a mighty fine machine there! Congrats!

Thanks for your help Jim. I think you are the one who sparked my interest in these Euro machines. If I had the room for it, the SC 3C would have been my first choice.

Now the waiting game begins. Probably will not see the machine before mid/late Sept.

[Jim Becker]

Always happy to help spend other folks' money... :D :D :D

[Chris Parks]

1 ST 503-137 Extension for aluminum formatting sliding table with ball bearings
1 ST 503168-100 VM Anschlagklappe für Hammer 90° Anschlag 20



I did a search and have the full Felder catalogue though it is some years old and I wonder what these two items are.

[Jacques Gagnon]

[/LIST]


I did a search and have the full Felder catalogue though it is some years old and I wonder what these two items are.

Chris,

503-168 is the mounting bracket for the front cross-cut fence

471753

(along with the 90 degree stop);

503-137 is the small support table (prism shape)

[Chris Parks]

Felder are still charging for the parts to fix their design problem? Awesome for them but questionable for customers who are ordering a new machine. Am I interpreting this correctly Eric?

[Mark e Kessler]

Felder are still charging for the parts to fix their design problem? Awesome for them but questionable for customers who are ordering a new machine. Am I interpreting this correctly Eric?

In Product Development we and the Product managers and especially the sales force like call that scenario - product improvement based on user feedback…lol

[Derek Cohen]

Felder are still charging for the parts to fix their design problem? Awesome for them but questionable for customers who are ordering a new machine. Am I interpreting this correctly Eric?

I recall replacing the crosscut fence stop a year after I purchased the K3 (several years ago). The stop was found to move. Felder did not consider replacing it even though the saw was under warranty! I was not amused. This was (and remains) a very expensive machine for an amateur.

As an aside, in regard to using a Hammer in a production shop, I have mentioned that I purchased the K3 over a top-of-the-line SawStop. Both are equal in build quality. I would argue that they are somewhat better than Grizzly and a number of other tablesaws. Yet, there are many production shops running Grizzly and SS. Either I have absolutely no concept of the demands placed on a slider in a production shop (very likely!), or some here are extremely and excessively picky about machines. As an amateur, I am very satisfied with the K3 but not in a position to know what I may be missing out on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Drew]

Chris,

503-168 is the mounting bracket for the front cross-cut fence

471753

(along with the 90 degree stop);

503-137 is the small support table (prism shape)

Thanks Jacques.

The part I listed is actually the 90 degree stop component, without the "coupler". Not listed in the catalogue. Liz found it as a spare part, so I can save a couple bucks verse buying the extra miter. It's $82, verse $156. That's why it's a line item that is not written in English.

This saw comes bundled with numerous other options too. I didn't list them, because they are all noted on the Felder/Hammer web site. It seems to be a pretty good deal at the current sale price. Roughly a $3000 discount. No idea how long this sale is good for, but if anyone is on the fence, now might be a good time to commit.

The Felder K500 is also on sale (as is other machines). The K3 bundle had many options over the K500, which made it an even better deal. Otherwise, the K500 would have been the machine I'd have gone with. I'm sure I'll be happy with the K3 though. I've been happy using my mid 90's Unisaw forever, it seems...... I think this will be a pretty big upgrade.

[Michael Drew]

Just got the word my saw is in the states. Paid the remaining balance, now they are crating it up for final shipment.

Time to kick the vette out of the garage and into winter storage. Sigh, winter is coming..... At least I'll have a new toy to play with soon.

[Jim Becker]

Ah...New Tool Day will be upon you real soon now!!

I'm a little jealous you'll get to use yours...my SC3S came in two months early and I had to park the crate in the temporary gara-shop until I can move it into the new shop building which literally was built last week and is a month or three away from being usable.

[Aaron Inami]

Michael, are you really in Alaska? The shipping must kill you!

[Michael Drew]

Yah, shipping anything here is absurdly expensive.

Well Jim, I get to use a new toy in a garage..... You get a whole new shop! I'm the one who's envious.

[Tony Melvin]

Can anyone comment on the resale value Felder vs Minimax sliders?

[Jim Becker]

Can anyone comment on the resale value Felder vs Minimax sliders?
Both should be "up there". I do not believe one has an advantage over the other.

[jack duren]

Sometimes you can find these saws cheap..

have you forgot about Altendorf?

[Aaron Inami]

For what it's worth, I have seen a lot of Hammer sliding table saws up for sale over time. However, I pretty much never see the Minimax lower end saws (like SC2C or similar). On the larger machines, both Felder K700 and SCM saws (like SI315 or Nova) are commonly up for sale.

[Nick Crivello]

Sometimes you can find these saws cheap..


There are two nice Felders up on the SF Bay craigslist at the moment, both are quite reasonably priced.

I snagged my K700 for about half what those are asking. So, yes deals can be had on these. :D

[jack duren]

The problem with some of the saws is the electronics.

I think our was a WA8. Automatic tilt and rise. When it fails , if you can’t fix , you’ll pay too.