Sliding Table Saw - Why Slider Above Table?

[Matt Culik]

Hi. I have a Grizzly G0623X sliding table saw. I use the slider side 90% of the time, and I've got it pretty well dialed in thinks to the folks on this forum and YouTube. One of the things mentioned by a variety of folks is that the sliding table should be planar to but ~0.010" ABOVE the table saw table.

Can someone explain why? And more importantly, how do you rip thin pieces where some sits on the slider without it "un-squaring" the cut?

As I said, I use the slider side 90% of the time and use a "Fritz and Franz" jig for ripping when the board to rip is wide enough to fit nicely on the slider and shorter than the slider's range of motion. This works perfectly. However, tonight I had to rip some pieces that were too narrow for "Fritz and Franz." So I ripped them the normal way, along the rip fence with my Micro Jig. My test cut was perfect, EXCEPT that because about 1/2" was sitting ~0.010" higher on the slider side, I ended up with a piece that wasn't square.

This wouldn't have been an issue if the slider were level with the table, but again, the recommendations seem to be the slider should be just slightly above the table.

So, if the recommendations are correct, how do you rip conventionally on a sliding table saw in situations where your off-cut extends onto the slider?

Thanks!

[Ned Otter]

Matt,

I believe the main reason that the "wagon" of a slider is above the cast iron is to reduce friction.

Can't see how that in and of itself would make a cut "un-square", as that would be more a function of setting things up properly to be 90* to the saw blade.

Apologies if I'm missing something in what you described.

Ned

[Jacques Gagnon]

Matt,

A couple of thoughts:

- is there a reason why you cannot produce your narrow piece with a wide piece sitting in the Fritz and Franz? The narrow piece would fall to the right of the blade and be square.

- if you absolutely need to work on the right side of the blade and using the rip fence as the reference would it be possible (while working safely) to start with a piece that is narrower than the distance between the fence and the sliding table? The blade would remove the waste and the cut would be square to the table (sorry, I have difficulty visualizing how the desired piece can fit between the blade and the rip fence and yet not being able to process it with the F&F - a picture would help).

Regards,

J.

[Kevin Jenness]

"Can't see how that in and of itself would make a cut "un-square", as that would be more a function of setting things up properly to be 90* to the saw blade"

A narrow workpiece spanning the gap will not be quite parallel to either table, thus not square to the blade. I set my sliding and fixed tables flush so I don't have to think about this issue. I have never noticed a problem with excess friction.

Jacque offers good solutions to the problem. One instance where I would use the rip fence traditionally is with a long narrow strip that is bowed or may bow when held by Fritz and Franz. The planer can help in this situation down to a certain thickness. The bandsaw is another option for narrow pieces.

[Bobby Robbinett]

I have always assumed the reason for the sliding carriage to be slightly above the cast iron table top is so that pieces don’t get hung on the edges of the cast iron top and either move your piece while cutting causing a kick back or (assuming your cross cut fence is in the front) if your cross cut fence is behind it would stop the workpiece from going through the motion of the cut.

My saw is a Griggio sc3200b which has a different blade orientation than your Grizzly, I believe. My sliding carriage is above the cast iron top top and I don’t like it. I have not yet figured out where the adjustment is for that on my saw. If anyone happens to know please let me know.

[Dan Friedrichs]

If the sliding table isn't just slightly higher than the cast iron, work will catch on the front edge of the cast iron and/or drag on it. 0.010" is not a magic number - I suppose ideally it would be nearly 0, but because of variations, 0.010" is probably reasonable. According to David Best (author of this excellent site on aligning sliders: http://davidpbest.com/VA/StonehorseShop/K975_Install/Felder_Commissioning/1-4%20Sliding%20Table.htm), sliding shapers often target 0.003".

As others said, it seems like there are other ways to make this cut to avoid the problem. However, I'm not sure why it's even a problem. Say you're cutting a 6" wide board to the right of the blade and it's slightly overhanging onto the slider, which is 0.01" higher than the cast iron. This results in a cut at 89.9 degrees. Or for a board that is 1" thick, the top side is 0.002" wider than the bottom. (It's early - someone feel free to check my math :D)

[Eric Shimp]

Matt

I have a slider and never use the fence unless the board I am ripping is longer than the 6.5 feet stroke of the slider. The way I cut thin strips is start with a known width board on the slider, using my parallel cutting guides I subtract the width of the thin strip I want and subtract the blade width, clamp it to the slider then make the cut. It takes a while because each strip has to be calculated but I have gotten pretty good at it. Hope this helps.470107

[Erik Loza]

In case anyone is curious as to “why” the slider is generally installed a little proud of the cast iron table, the formal explanation is to avoid marring finished panels or to avoid any suction effect in the offcut piece. This is why you see a finger divot in the cast iron table of some of the Italian machines. Personally, the only time I would want the slider truly flush with the saw table is on a combined saw/shaper (or dedicated shaper).

Erik

[Jim Becker]

The explanations have been made and I agree with them. I'll also say that I never ever found it to be an actual issue in my work.

[Derek Cohen]

As I said, I use the slider side 90% of the time and use a "Fritz and Franz" jig for ripping when the board to rip is wide enough to fit nicely on the slider and shorter than the slider's range of motion. This works perfectly. However, tonight I had to rip some pieces that were too narrow for "Fritz and Franz." So I ripped them the normal way, along the rip fence with my Micro Jig. My test cut was perfect, EXCEPT that because about 1/2" was sitting ~0.010" higher on the slider side, I ended up with a piece that wasn't square.

Matt, did you measure how much out-of-square the edge was? I very much doubt that it would be evident. My slider wagon lies 0.5mm high, and I have long just ignored this concern off the rip fence. All crosscuts are done on the wagon. These count.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Coers]

One of the things mentioned by a variety of folks is that the sliding table should be planar to but ~0.010" ABOVE the table saw table. How did guys my age ever get woodworking done without Youtube and friends? Set the table like you want it (I have mine set to even with the table and keep the table waxed) and change it latter if you don't like it.

[Kevin Jenness]

How did guys my age ever get woodworking done without Youtube and friends?


Clearly you were doing it wrong. :)

I have never noticed any of the problems mentioned due to the carriage being high or level with the main table. I would say that an aluminum extrusion flat within .006" over 9' or 10' (+/- .003") is darned good. I have worked with several sliders that were considerably worse and as long as the carriage was not lower than the table there were no issues except on long bevel cuts.

[Wes Grass]

Considering a sliding tablesaw is a step 'above' a conventional tablesaw, you'd expect the slider itself to be 'above' the table...

Personally, a piece dragging on the table is the equivalent of fingernails on a blackboard...

;-)

[Rick Potter]

I fought with this also, and finally decided that I will build a small sled that extends past the blade about a foot on both sides. I will use it for cutting small parts, and leave the slider as is.

As far as ripping narrow pieces, I can hear a click every time the cut is completed and the wood snaps down on the table, and THAT is what grated on my nerves. Keeping my table saw solved that problem. In reality it wasn't a problem, but it did bug me.

[Mark e Kessler]

The most important setting on a slider in my opinion is as follows 1. Adjust twist if any out of cast top 2. set blade stop 90 to cast 3. Adjust slide coplanar with cast, while setting height with coplaner taking priority. I have a 9’ slider, i think i am 0.008-0.009 over about 7’-8’ and at the end it jumps to like 0.015 but it doesn’t matter as I won’t ever need to cut to a specific height at the far end of the slide (think dado)

[johnny means]

In 20 years, I've never seen the difference be big enough to have any discernible affect.

[Leigh Betsch]

I put a couple of pieces of tape under the aluminum throat insert when I use my dado stack. But I leave my normal throat insert screwed down flush to the cast iron for most of my work.

[Mike King]

It's woodworking, not precision metal machining.

[Warren Lake]

on a smaller slider like my SCM the cross cut fence will scrape on the table if the carriage is not higher than the table, table needs to be as flat as possible for the same reason

[Ronald Blue]

No dog in this fight but it would seem the error as has been pointed out should be very slight. Which brings me to this question. Are you certain your blade was absolutely at 90 degrees and is the slider only .010 or is it more than it should be? The other thought is run it over the jointer if it's out of square enough to be an issue. But I would be checking things to see why it's enough to be an issue.

[Mark e Kessler]

Adjusting your equipment to be the best that it can be is something that I enjoy, does it need to be done? Not if you your happy with your results, some folks are ok with average and thats ok as well.

[Mark e Kessler]

No dog in this fight but it would seem the error as has been pointed out should be very slight. Which brings me to this question. Are you certain your blade was absolutely at 90 degrees and is the slider only .010 or is it more than it should be? The other thought is run it over the jointer if it's out of square enough to be an issue. But I would be checking things to see why it's enough to be an issue.

To me it is important to have the blade as close to 90deg on both sides, sometimes that means making a compromise and splitting the difference. In my experience getting perfect 90 at full blade height on a slider is difficult, in the end i rely on the actual cuts that i get to check 90 than what my square against the blade may show.

The process I discussed in setting up a slider isn't totally necessary if you are happy with your results, the only way i can be happy with my results is to take out all the variables so when something doesn’t go right i know where not to look first. For example the chances that the cast table has a twist is pretty slim on a European build saw but guess what, my 20k saw table did have a twist in it - does anyone here know what happens when you have a twist in your table on a slider? You can’t dial in the height and possibly to coplanarity of the slider, you will be constantly chasing measurement of the slider height.

it only takes a few minutes the check the twist and then you are done forever (in most cases) and you have just eliminated one unknown…

[Howard Dean]

IÂ’m vacillating between a regular table saw and a sliding table saw. IÂ’m considering a saw stop and a hammer k3,

I currently live in a condo in an urban area, but am building a house with a modest sized (525 sq ft) workshop. My current “workshop” consists of lugging portable tools onto our roof deck. I face joint boards using a hand plane (and then run them through a lunchbox planer) and do edge jointing with a track saw. For ripping and cross cutting wood I also use a track saw (I have two, a Festool 55 and a Maffel 55). Depending on the size of the boards, I either use saw horses or a small (5x3) portable mft I built using a parf guide. I have lots of mft accesories (dogs, clamps, fences, parallel guides, squares, etc.).

For the soon-to-be new shop I am planning on building a large (4x8) mft/router table/out feed table), and outfitting the shop with a table saw, a cabinet planer, a drill press, a lathe, a band saw and dust collection (I donÂ’t need a jointer because IÂ’ve gotten used to face jointing and edge jointing with a hand plane/track saw). I plan on having all of the machines on mobile bases.

The question is the following: given that IÂ’ll have a well-outfitted mft table, whatÂ’s the value added in buying a sliding table saw versus a regular table saw? IÂ’m currently a hobbiest who works mainly with 6/4 to 8/4 hardwoods (tables, benches and other furniture), but would like to get good enough to sell some pieces (I mainly build for ourselves, family and friends). I will also need to build a lot cabinets and other storage for walk-in closets and other areas.

Views?

[Jim Becker]

Howard, there are quite a few discussions about the merits of a true slider. My own reasons include precision/repeatability and safety. Even if I had to downsize to the smallest slider, I'd still choose it over a North American design cabinet saw because of my personal preferences.

[Matt Culik]

@Howard Dean

Lucky you! Building and outfitting a new shop!

My story is somewhat similar. When my wife and I got married, we had a house that wasn't big enough to have a dedicated woodworking space. So, I bought a bunch of Festool and did my woodworking on the driveway. Five years later, we bought the house I'm in now, which has a 600 square foot dedicated shop. For several years, the tool budget was reallocated to other things, and I was happy that I didn't have to carry my tools outside to work and could work on bad weather days, so I didn't buy any big machines.

A year ago or so, I stumbled upon a good deal for a used Grizzly G0623X sliding table saw and bought it on a whim. It took a bunch of fiddling, but I've now got dialed in now to the point that it's absolutely dead-on for the level of woodworking I do.

Long story short, the slider is, in my opinion, miles better than a MFT and TS55. To the point that I actually sold my MFT because I wanted the floor space back. Since selling my MFT, which is a decision I'm still happy I made, there are precisely two things I miss about it:

1. The dog holes for clamping stuff for sanding, assembly, etc. My current work table doesn't have dog holes, but that will be fixed during an upcoming project...
2. The ability to clamp things vertically against the aluminum rails, which is hyper-helpful in certain situations. This is also part of my upcoming project...

From a cutting perspective, I STRONGLY prefer the slider. It's easier, faster, more accurate, etc., etc. At this point, the only thing I use my TS55 for is ripping 4x8 sheets because my slider isn't big enough to easily/accurately handle these. And I've actually started using a lot more 5x5 Baltic birch because of how easily panels of this size are worked on the slider.

BUT...two things...

1. I don't have experience with "shop-grade" cabinet saws. Growing up, we had a Bosch contractor saw, and large panels and long pieces had to be man-handled and often required "touching-up" to be usable. So, I'm not sure how far apart a "shop-grade" cabinet saw and a "lower end" (meaning not a $30K, digitally controlled Martin or whatever) slider are in real life, but I can tell you it would take a LOT of convincing to get me to give having a slider.

2. Sliders inherently take a up a LOT of space (not just the machine itself, but the dedicated clearway for the slider to slide). Even my little Grizzly in my 600 square foot shop is a space hog. Granted, my tractor is often parked in the shop and my work table is too big (I made it 4x8 so I could put full sheets on it when I only had the TS55), but I often find myself shimmying around the fence (or hooking my jeans on it) and generally wishing I had more space...but not wishing so much that I'm even remotely considering getting rid of the slider.

One last piece of advice you didn't ask for...;-) Take note of where the power switch is on that Hammer slider you're considering. My biggest gripe with the Grizzly is that the location of the switch SUCKS! After I've set up a big cut, I have to walk around the sliding table to the other side of the blade and reach under the sliding table to turn the saw on. And by the time I've done that, the piece has inevitably moved just a tiny bit, which means I have to reset the cut while the blade is turning. This is something that should be relatively easy to fix on my well-used Grizzly, but I'd be annoyed if I had to modify by brand new Hammer.

Good luck with the build and outfitting!

[ChrisA Edwards]

To Howard Dean, I have a very nice Sawstop setup, and even though I have the ICS mobile base, it sits in a permanent location.

My outfeed is positioned towards the garage door and can cut 9' before I have to open the door.

This allows me to have an outfeed table, that will support an 8' rip, without additional support, and still walk between the outfeed table and the garage door.

And as much space as it consumes, only the smallest slider would consume less.

I've lusted after a slider for years, and now if I was buying my first saw, I think I'd make one fit although it would be compromised in stroke, i.e. don't think I could fit one that will rip 8' or longer.

So my work around for processing sheet goods is a MFT style top that sits on top of a workbench. It's slightly larger than my workbench which allows me to overhang the workbench and use the through dog hole clamps where necessary. I can crosscut 36", using a tracksaw, something I cannot do with my genuine MFT table.

I also have a sheet of 2" pink foam, broken down into four 2' x 4' sections, for storage, that I lay on the floor and then break sheets of plywood/MDF down using the tracksaw.

First saw, if budget permits, get a slider.

[Howard Dean]

Many thanks for the input, Just got off the phone with the sales rep who was trying to convince me on the merits of choosing the 79x48. My shop will be about 26’ long and 22’ wide, which should accommodate the larger footprint. I’ve seen posts by people who say to go bigger if at all possible. Any views? Another question I have concerns using the rip fence for repeat rip cuts. The sales rep explained (which I have read) that the slider sits just a bit above the table. The rep said that this doesn’t affect squareness of rip cuts, which I find hard to believe. One option is to lower the slider to be even with the table. What have others done? I understand that you can use the rip fence as a stop, but how do you then ensure repeatability?

[Jim Becker]

The intermediate size wagon certainly has merits with processing project components. I believe the size you are considering is what Stever Wurster has and it's a very nice machine. His shop is smaller than yours, AFAIK. I'm considering a similar sized short stroke for when I get a new shop building up.

[Mike Stelts]

I just installed a new KF700S. The slider is .020 above the table at the blade and .030 at the far edge (i.e. it's not coplaner). The worst dip I can find in the table is .0015, and the slider runs within .005 at the blade across 120". My goal is to set this up once and never dicker with it again. While the machine is officially out of spec, Felder says must pay for alignment.

Do folks recommend I leave it alone (close enough), pay big bucks for the alignment, or dedicate a day following Felder's Sliding Table Calibration Instructions and David Best's book and videos?

[Mark e Kessler]

If they send the right tech you could be up and running sooner than later but I would do it yourself. IT will be a pain, you will be frustrated at times but you will know the machine better and more than likely it will need adjustment down the road as you get experienced with the saw and want to tweak it.

I would forget about specs for now, if it is working (obviously do some tuning like square fences) just use it you might be fine with the way it is and thats all that matters

[Rod Sheridan]

I wouldn’t adjust anything unless it doesn’t produce accurate workpieces….Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

I wouldn’t adjust anything unless it doesn’t produce accurate workpieces….Regards, Rod

I agree with this a whole bunch...it can be so easy to screw something up.

[Howard Dean]

An additional question before I forget. The sales rep recommends a 30 amp breaker for the saw, yet I see people using 20 amp breakers and even 15 amp. I would think that a dedicated 20 amp should be sufficient. What do you guys use?

[Rod Sheridan]

An additional question before I forget. The sales rep recommends a 30 amp breaker for the saw, yet I see people using 20 amp breakers and even 15 amp. I would think that a dedicated 20 amp should be sufficient. What do you guys use?

Go with the manufacturer’s recommendation, including if they specify a maximum breaker size. My saw is limited to a 20 ampere circuit with a maximum short circuit current of 5KA………….Regards, Rod.

[Gabriel Marusic]

Echoing what others said, if you're happy with the results you're getting now, I wouldn't calibrate it. I got a K3 last year and I wasn't at all happy with how it arrived, though it was technically all within spec. What seemed like a very straightforward process for calibrating the slider height, toe out, crosscut fence and rip fence was anything but and took a lot of days of frustration and tinkering to finally get it where I have it now. I am mostly happy with it now but am one of those people who can get lost in the pursuit of perfection and I spent a lot of time fiddling with it instead of using it. I loosened the slider completely and restarted the calibration from the ground up at least 7 times throughout the whole ordeal.

[Howard Dean]

Thanks. Better safe than sorry. Texted the builder, who was able to switch out the wiring for the table saw to accommodate a 30 amp breaker.

[Chris Parks]

Echoing what others said, if you're happy with the results you're getting now, I wouldn't calibrate it. I got a K3 last year and I wasn't at all happy with how it arrived, though it was technically all within spec. What seemed like a very straightforward process for calibrating the slider height, toe out, crosscut fence and rip fence was anything but and took a lot of days of frustration and tinkering to finally get it where I have it now. I am mostly happy with it now but am one of those people who can get lost in the pursuit of perfection and I spent a lot of time fiddling with it instead of using it. I loosened the slider completely and restarted the calibration from the ground up at least 7 times throughout the whole ordeal.

So given your time again after purchase you would not touch it? What was the reason that you did in the first place? With European sliders the first thing you should do is use it, no problems no need to touch it. The more expensive the machine such as the top end Felders/Format etc I would not hesitate to get it commissioned by a factory tech and I definitely would not touch it.