For those with College seniors...

[Prashun Patel]

...Is anyone else disturbed by the college application and acceptance process?

The branding and ranking of institutions creates a situation where many kids feel they have won or lost the lottery.

The timing of the different deadlines creates a situation where some kids not only have won the lottery but can coast for the last few months, while the others are forced to sweat it out.

And that's for the rich kids who have counsellors to advise them about deadlines and strategies for presenting themselves.

What about all the other kids?

I guess my point is this: knowledge is free but the brand of that knowledge is not.

It's inefficient for driving society forward, and unfair to most kids, whether poor or poor, rich.

I find most distasteful and tone deaf the social media posting celebrating the application success of your children. To high schoolers, this process can be like being on a firing line, where most are shot dead and 1 is left standing. For that parent to celebrate the life of the living seems tone deaf and wrong. Of course I am not saying that their life ends with a college rejection. But if you are in this situation you know what I mean.

[Ron Citerone]

Prashun,

Your frustrtion is coming through lous and clear and I feel for you.

As a first generation college grad who taught in a working class public school and who sent three kids to college, I have a lot of thoughts, but your last statement excludes my thoughts. In the end I bet your family's outcome will be fine. Hang in there.

[Prashun Patel]

I removed my last statement.

[Ron Citerone]

As much as I would like to see coordination of colleges as far as acceptance dates like you, I don’t see it happening since colleges come in many sizes, many states, public, private and publicly subsidized.

I would not want my kid to have the lowest or highest SAT score in any college. Leads to frustration or coasting, I have seen it happen both ways to family and friends. Not getting into a “Dream School” may be a blessing.

My brother and daughter went undergrad to Public Colleges and then to big name schools for their Masters. It happens all the time.

More than wealth, having parents that went to college is the biggest advantage a Senior could have. I didn’t and still made out Fine. The counselors at the public school that I worked at would jump through hoops for kids applying to college.

I stood next to my daughter crying on the sofa upon reading a denial letter from her first pick. I believe the college that she eventually went to was a better place for her in the end.

I have tried to avoid gloating/bragging about my kids. After teaching 35 years and knowing families with kids who had physical/ learning/ emotional problems I always tried to consider their feelings and challenges. I would like to see other people consider how to show pride and also consider other peoples situations. I have personally seen the best and worst of raising kids.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I try to encourage stepping back and taking a broader view of the whole college question. I didn't apply to or go to college. I knew what I wanted to try to do with my life, and having a degree would not have been necessary for it. Also I didn't want to have debts to pay off. My father was a college professor and my mother got a 4 year degree, so the typical expectation would be that I would go too. I still would try to go now if I decided I wanted to pursue a job that required a degree, but until that happens I think it's wiser not to go.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I just had two kids graduate a few years ago and I know what you mean.

More so for my daughter on entry to medical school, not so much for my daughter, but more for the kids that had gone to, supposedly more prestigious schools and paid a lot for their 4 year college, to now be on the same level playing field as those, such as my daughter who pretty much had an expense free ride through the 4 years at state college school.

[Scott Clausen]

It ha been a decade or two ago but I have three kids. My wife and I didn't go to college and started a family instead. We worked very hard to get them into college, and at this point I mean the paperwork and playing the angles. This ranged from scholarships to writing letters to finding a school in the university that was not fully filled. First child was not totally motivated but gifted. He had a full ride until he failed one class and lost a scholarship. He retook from the same professor and made a perfect 100% A+. He made up the difference doing CO-Op work. He went on and put himself through grad school and graduated with more money than he started with. Second we had to put money into until he made $26K on a Co-Op and spent it on fine dining and booze so his final year he had to get a loan. Third went through and did well but had no loans. Later went back and put herself through nursing school and graduated top of the class. I have three great kids and their mother really took charge in "making sure" they got started on the right path in college. To sum this up , it is possible to get a child through college but the dangerous thing is when they borrow for tuition, books AND living expenses like rent without working and saving. They will wind up heavy in debt and if their degree can't fund that debt level they will be left hoping for a bailout. As someone of a modest income who got three kids through college largely without debt I would be pissed off at having to fund an entire generation that has not been responsible. Government throwing money at this whether it be in easy loans or grants is only fueling the escalating cost.

[Prashun Patel]

Amen. The cost of college is a whole different debate and way more important.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I honestly have never asked my doctor, dentist or other professional where they got their post or undergraduate degrees. Yet I think we do need to rank/rate schools and degree programs to assure minimal standards are set for professional degrees. I wouldn't want to be treated by a physician or dentist who got their degrees from an online degree mill.

In 1992 when my wife was diagnosed with a rare and deadly form of cancer her local specialist recommended, she seek surgery at the University of Washington Medical Center in Seattle. When questioned, he said he could to the surgery locally, surgeons in Spokane could do the surgery but he hadn't done it since graduation, in Spokane they may do a couple a year whereas at the UWMC they probably do one procedure a week. My wife elected to go the UWMC where they performed her desire of the most radical, conservative surgery and thankfully she lights up my life today.

Our 3 children all have some college, two have degrees and one has a doctorate in dentristy from a known, respected university. All 3 children have been contributing adult professionals, one has retired from one company, now working for another company, one is retiring in 20 months and the other continues with his life.

Our son with the doctorate got his undergraduate premed degree from a local state college with us being about $2000 in debt as a result of 5 years of attendance and a change in majors. He was informed postgraduate schools was on his tab not ours. He applied to 11 recognized dental programs, got accepted at 9 and made the ranked alternate lists at the remaining 2. He was counseled about postgraduate programs and application deadlines by his college counselors.

It's normal to want to celebrate our educational achievements or the educational achievements of our children. Yet, getting accepted into a program is just the first step. Graduating is often a whole different ball game.

I want my children to have moral values and a self-confidence to be a contributing to society adult able to accept those of different backgrounds and achievements.

[Jim Becker]

I don't miss the process we went through about five years ago when we were doing the college choice dance. I was really taken aback by the amount of the "awards" promised by a number of institutions...they seemed large, but in reality, they were not such a good deal. A friend's daughter is in that same position "as we speak"...some enormous "lottery win" type numbers that suddenly are not so great when evaluated in actual context. I'm so glad that my daughter made the choices she did. It only involved a modest scholarship but she was able to live at home and save ten grand or more a year in living expenses for the whole four years from the local campus of the very large state university that I and my father also graduated from. She could have had a "free ride" at the school that Professor Dr. SWMBO teaches at, but it just was not the right school for her in both programs and environment.

[mike stenson]

I have two kids in university currently. Both went to a highly competitive, nationally ranked, high school. I'm certain that helped, in that there were actively engaged counsellors, and there were kids in both their graduating classes that went to Ivy League schools, highly ranked public schools, and service academies as a result. However, both of mine elected to accept the offer for acceptance that gave them the most money (Both will graduate with less than 5 grand in debt, there are an awful lot of grants available and many go unused). Rather than the more prestigious schools. In our case, it just happened to be a local university. As has been stated, I'm not sure anyone really cares where you did your undergrad. It's unfortunate that so much emphasis is put on it for high school juniors and seniors. It's also unfortunate that many schools don't have a reasonable counseling system setup.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... the amount of the "awards" promised by a number of institutions...they seemed large, but in reality, they were not such a good deal. ...

Interestingly, the quality of the education has not gone up at these prestigious institutions, so ask yourself where the money goes. Colleges have jacked tuition costs right thru the roof, then, after you submit your financial statement, they generously offer scholarships (Wal-Home-Low properly calls this a 'discount', not an award). Funny how the award seems to be based on what they think mommy & daddy can/will fund - or what the kid can borrow from Uncle Sugar.

And now I get to pay for everybody else's kids to do this dance; just paying for me & mine is clearly immoral.

[Clifford McGuire]

I hire technical graduates for my company. And I can tell you that a prestigious school doesn't make a bit of difference to us. If anything, it might be a hindrance. (I can't comment on other degrees.)

That said, I've been through it recently enough with my kids that I know what you mean. There was anxiety and nervousness, and maybe a few sleepless nights. Did my kids get into their first choices? Nope. But after the process was over, we never thought about it again.

[Kevin Jenness]

It is a bad situation. The branding and ranking is largely bull and the cost is driven by administration and investment in amenities that have little connection to the learning ostensibly taking place there. All you can do is help your children determine what they want to go for and what institution will help them achieve their goals at an affordable cost. Unfortunately the upper reaches of our society often are filled by people who made connections at the prestige schools and you need either a stellar record or family money/connections to get in.

Realistically, many kids who get steered to a 4 year college don't belong there due to aptitude or immaturity. Some time in service or working in trade after high school would provide needed perspective for many, but the system is not set up to encourage that. As far as the competitive lottery celebration goes, that sucks for the kids with the losing tickets but what can you do except find another path.

As someone who attended two top schools and wound up in the trades, with two sons smarter than me who didn't finish high school and are also in the trades, I can say that my liberal arts degree didn't hurt me and their lack of a diploma didn't hold them back either. The three R's plus independence and direction can take your kids a long way regardless of the education racket.

[Jim Matthews]

...Is anyone else disturbed by the college application and acceptance process?



What about all the other kids?

I guess my point is this: knowledge is free but the brand of that knowledge is not.

It's inefficient for driving society forward, and unfair to most kids, whether poor or poor, rich.

But if you are in this situation you know what I mean.
I suspect our kids are catching on to the emotional manipulation involved. Since my kids became aware of education beyond high school, we have stressed the value of community colleges and state funded institutions - which have greater acceptance rates.

You're not wrong, but this might be another pointless exercise modern kids must endure. In their favor, fewer high school graduates are choosing College, particularly expensive ones.

This reduces the pool of applicants.

I draw on "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius when agitated by distractions such as these.

It's a credit to your character that your children and their welfare concern you.

https://dailystoic.com/meditations-marcus-aurelius/

[Larry Frank]

Interesting thread....but not certain I agree with everything.

Just like anything else, one needs to put in time and effort to understand and work within the system and use it to your advantage. Some top ranked technical schools have very high placement rates for graduates.

One can complain about the system but I did everything possible to give my kids help. They went to a top ranked engineering school and found great jobs and are successful in their fields.

[andrew whicker]

I'm an ex engineer from Purdue (bachelor only) and i would not have wanted to graduate from the school in Ogden UT (where I live now) as an engineer because it wouldn't have been as good of an education.

So I do think it matters. Do I think Purdue vs MIT is much different for UNDER grad? I've wondered this a lot. The education probably wouldn't be that much different. However, the diploma would have been a lot more valuable for that first job. And if my first job paid me X more income per year, then my starting point would be higher and then every year after would be higher, etc etc. I think the practical 'go to the local place down the street' argument isn't entirely correct IF you have the ability to go to a more trusted / more expensive school. If you are a single parent, if you working two jobs and still want to get a diploma, etc. then yes, go practical. If you're a HS'er with good grades and have the means to go to a 'good' school, then go to the good school.

I mainly get aggravated at the cost argument from the perspective of older people telling younger people to just simply work while in college. Like $10 / hr in today's economy (before inflation) would do anything to offset the cost of today's college. It's a bad faith argument and everyone knows it. I also think it's nutty (and another one of those super hard work American-isms) that we EXPECT people to get an excellent, life changing education while working a job. We just expect students to pretty much suffer for 4 years because that's how expensive it is to get an education. It's like we're trying to solve the college education problem by requiring the students to do more instead of cutting out fluff, giving minimalist finance options, etc. and letting themselves focus on education.

Especially with my experience, I could have not worked one hour and filled all of my time to the brim with engineering related opportunities. Those opportunities are not available in the post college real world and it's sad that many students don't get to fully dive into these experiences because they are working at McD's to pay rent. Not saying I know what the answer is, but as I get older I buy less into the American 'work your butt off and only work your butt off' solution to every single problem we have.

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm an ex engineer from Purdue (bachelor only) and i would not have wanted to graduate from the school in Ogden UT (where I live now) as an engineer because it wouldn't have been as good of an education.

So I do think it matters. Do I think Purdue vs MIT is much different for UNDER grad? I've wondered this a lot. The education probably wouldn't be that much different. However, the diploma would have been a lot more valuable for that first job. And if my first job paid me X more income per year, then my starting point would be higher and then every year after would be higher, etc etc. I think the practical 'go to the local place down the street' argument isn't entirely correct IF you have the ability to go to a more trusted / more expensive school. If you are a single parent, if you working two jobs and still want to get a diploma, etc. then yes, go practical. If you're a HS'er with good grades and have the means to go to a 'good' school, then go to the good school.

I mainly get aggravated at the cost argument from the perspective of older people telling younger people to just simply work while in college. Like $10 / hr in today's economy (before inflation) would do anything to offset the cost of today's college. It's a bad faith argument and everyone knows it. I also think it's nutty (and another one of those super hard work American-isms) that we EXPECT people to get an excellent, life changing education while working a job. We just expect students to pretty much suffer for 4 years because that's how expensive it is to get an education. It's like we're trying to solve the college education problem by requiring the students to do more instead of cutting out fluff, giving minimalist finance options, etc. and letting themselves focus on education.

Especially with my experience, I could have not worked one hour and filled all of my time to the brim with engineering related opportunities. Those opportunities are not available in the post college real world and it's sad that many students don't get to fully dive into these experiences because they are working at McD's to pay rent. Not saying I know what the answer is, but as I get older I buy less into the American 'work your butt off and only work your butt off' solution to every single problem we have.

I agree with you in large part. Going to the "best" school one can get into is a great idea, but knowing what the best for a given individual is difficult, and these days it's easy to come out shouldering an unpayable debt. If the choice is between filling every hour with study or working part-time at Micky D's, the former is probably a better long term investment. Unfortunately a lot of young people are in school because of parental/societal expectations and the choice is between lab time and beer pong.

[Stan Calow]

I don't think the OP was about whether "good schools" were worth it or not, but rather the ridiculous process it takes to get into those schools. The idea that acceptance is based on some kind of meritocracy is laughable. The whole Stanford scandal shows just how corrupt and manipulable the process is. That is, if you have the resources and connections to make it happen.

[Jack Frederick]

I’ve watched this thread for a few days. My girls finished school 18+ yrs ago. We got both of them out of school debt free. That did not happen for me and we were happy to do so. My view on this entire process is that it is an opportunity, at a critical time as they begin to leave the nest, to understand that as Cat Steven’s said, “Oooo, baby, it’s a wild world…” The process is difficult at best and in my experience as in life, fairness, well, you have to represent yourself diligently. Leaving for school is an apprenticeship. The school does little to prepare them so you have to stay with them teaching them that life is great, but keep your eyes open.
When my first daughter went to school we had the car loaded up and we were all in, the car running. I asked my daughter to come with me and we abandoned ship & walked up to the front door. I unlocked it and opened it telling her that it is indeed a wild world and that regardless of what happens out there, that this door will always open for her.