How do you plane dovetails flush when the face grain goes the wrong direction?

[Christopher Wellington]

Okay, you cut some nice dovetails by hand, leaving the joint a bit proud so that it can be planed flush after assembly. You come in and plane the surface with the dovetail at the start of the cut but you find that you're planing against the grain on the face. Normally you would flip the piece around and plane the other direction, but now the joint is at the end of the cut and you're liable to blow out the corner where you're planing end grain.

How do you deal with this situation? It seems unavoidable if you're constructing a box of any kind with a dovetail on both ends of every face.

Clamp a sacrificial piece at the end of the cut to prevent the blowout?

[Mike Allen1010]

You got the right answer – ultimately a backing strip clamped behind the “away“ side of the box will help prevent blowout.

Also, super sharp, lower angle block plane against the grain should help take care of most of the proud waste end grain without impacting the long grain surface too much. Once you get it close, a little beveled planed on the corner of the box will minimize the vast majority of potential blowout. You got it!

[Jim Koepke]

Try a very sharp chisel with a low bevel angle.

That was my solution on a recent box build > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?286634

The trimming of pins & tails is in the 9th post.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Another solution was to leave them proud >https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278586

jtk

[mike stenson]

I don't try and leave the pins proud, pretty much for this reason (and flushing them feels like work to me). But when it occurs, everything that's been mentioned already works.

Like Jim, I prefer to pare if possible.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

In addition to the above, pare with a chisel plane if you have one. Less chance of an oopsie than with a chisel.

[Tom Trees]

Realise the importance of the cap iron, so you can plane any timber in any direction without tearout.
Knots, reversing interlocked grain, figured timber, all no issue, and you can plane timbers without flipping the work and doing all that faff.
Seems there is some folk who think this is not the case, and there will always be some tearout remaining.
These folk need to at least look at David Weavers "Setting a cap iron" article.

The gist of it being, honing the cap iron to something over 50 degrees, and having the mouth open, and not tight!
The opposite of the folks who might advise scraping flat work sometimes.

The hardest thing to do is getting the camber if wanted perfect, so the cap can be set close enough for the job at hand.
Oh and letting go of the idea of needing a tight mouth ;)

Here are examples of two cap iron influenced shavings.
It's very hard to show the distances, so you will have to take my word for it.

As you can see some tearout from the cambered plane, so time to use a plane which the cap iron will have influence.
This is a 5 1/2 iron with a bit under 1/32" maybe halfway approaching 1/64" , a gap larger than 1/32" won't have influence as it will be too far away from the cut .
Well...if the cap iron is honed at the 50 somethin degrees mark, the steeper the cap iron, the further away from the cut it can be set.
469848

After a few passes you can still see some minute tearout present, this will need the smoother afterwards.
Notice the waxy crinkled glossy shavings which resist curling.
469849

To remove the last bit, the no.4 is used with the cap set at 1/64" or under
469850
Notice the straight shavings certainly indicating influence
469851

Works for all timbers, but should it be pine or whatever then it might worth posting, as that comes up a lot.
Here is some tropical iroko for comparison.
469852

All the best
Tom

[Robert Engel]

I wish I could do this^^^. Try as I might, I can't tho.

[Christopher Wellington]

Thank you for all the suggestions. That gives me some more arrows in my quiver.

Regarding cutting the joint with the ends proud - I do this intentionally to avoid having to plane down the entire side flush with a too-short pin. I figure there will be a bit of variation no matter what I do, and I'd rather err on the side of too long than too short. A sharp plane makes quick work of the end grain, and the trouble only comes in the final pass or two along the full length of the side.

[mike stenson]

Yea, for a drawer it's not bad. My last dovetails were in 24"wide 1" thick case sides though.

[Tom Trees]

I wish I could do this^^^. Try as I might, I can't tho.

Sounds to me like you have it already, if you've done all mentioned in the above, and something is giving the impression it's not working as it should.
Taking the above out of the equation, (unless you've honed your cap irons back to around 30 or whatever degrees it was before.)

Your gemoetery of the camber (should you have any) is suited for both planes, ie no heavy rounded corners to stop the cap getting close.
Open mouth on the planes, don't hinder what may be obvious, as the cap is taking care of business.

So with both your planes setup as they should be, the only things left to question are minimal, notice I'm not mentioning sharpness, "superior" results is of no great benefit here,
and if relying on that brief absolute sharpness, then that is a give away that the cap doesn't have enough "influence." (cap iron distance @ honed cap iron angle)

If you keep sharpening, you will eventually just come across something which will refuse even the sharpest iron, and it may give one the push to go back to the hone and really carefully make that camber smaller and still as perfectly gradual as it was, or swap to the smoother with lesser to no camber.

This constant absolute sharpness, refreshing of the edge may have made the heel of the bevel in contact with the work.

I can think of only two things left at this point.

You might not be noticing the tearout leaving because it may take time to get down to the supported fibres, should you be trying this on not so flat timber.
The tearout gets less with every shaving as the fibres are getting progressively more supported.

And the last, maybe a little antagonistic for some... but to me is most important,
A guaranteed fool proof way of planing, with a flat surface to plane on if working on thin stock, or for thicker stock at the very least something like these beams to have a reference against.
Must be as long as the work if wanting foolproof.

Take Panel working planes and smoothers into equation, in which the cap irons would be "set" for the use of each.
You have been using a different methodology/approach to the likes of David Charlesworth, and the work isn't as flat as that.
If not using the techniques like rocking, pivoting, dragging, tipping, sighting/candling ect.....
Then it is quite likely that you are being too greedy with the cut.

One might not notice if always just planing the hump out of the middle of boards, and having a differing methodology after that.
The flatter the work is, the more in contact an iron will be, so if the right material is removed consistently, rather than going all at it in all directions with a heavier cut,
the more effective the shallower set plane will work, and combined with the side effect of more downforce in the cut due to the shavings being unbroken, and the plane not coming out of the cut, might make what at once seemed like way too light of a cut, a lot heavier than it was before.


It could also be a case of not having a good lamp, and relying on light from the roof, or something unsuitable and glairy like some super bright LED's.
Once again Charlesworth and Cosman will suggest these angle poise/articulated/long reach/architectural lamps

Beware if shopping on ebay :p
You don't want one of these wee things for the bench! ...you want a long reach lamp with a 7.5" shade, (makes a difference compared to the small one)
It can shine both faces under the timber when on edge, to reveal where the contact is with the bench (lumps/high spots)
Sometimes there's a lump of denser material catching, minerals or whatever, leaving the work not sitting square, but not apparent from the eye like a big knot would be.
The lamp is great for shooting over, as what's referred to as "candle" an edge, to spot something in particular.
469864

If not having an accurate (long as the bench) straight edge, then it would be worth making a pair of parallel timber straight edges.
That's four surfaces which can all be shuffled around and still remain true.
Needs to be on both edges, to make sure there is no mating warpage of the timbers.
469865

And if trouble is had making them, one could "cheat" and use some cheap dark crayons for the job of getting there.
It would teach one how heavy of a cut can be made with a light setting on a smoother.
You can do the same by pressing mildly hard on the bench to burnish the timber, if you don't like that idea.

469866

Seems like coloured candle wax to me, as these humps wipes off easy with a swipe of the plane.
Just might be handy if working on a workmate and laminating a bench up or something.

You will find Charlesworth and Cosman making use of using the lamp to good effect,
One on youtube few years ago where Rob prepped a board "rough to ready", (the title of an early video he had) and the free version has a similar title.
No hold downs or anything like that, just a stop in front,

You can use the bench instead of a beam, should it be suitable, flipping the work over to see the high spots, like here where the ends need a good nippin
469867

One stop is all that's needed, as the work never needs to be planed in the other direction, (cuz, ya don't need to plane in opposite directions now https://sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/wink.gif)

And if the above planing methodology of Cosman and Charlesworth's is met with the use of the double iron as it were intended, like David Weaver or
the very few others who actually use the double iron and not trying to sell tools or drip feed youtube content, will show you.
(best stick to David's advice on the setup of the plane IMO)
It should be apparent that things are working as they should, and you can take thin unbroken shavings.

If not going by that planing methodology, (planing on the bench)
then there's a lot of variables like material deflection which is a something likely, especially on panels and thinner stock,
but likely many other things to take into account also.

Hope that helps
Tom

[Luke Dupont]

I've always worried about finding myself in this predicament, but somehow never had much of a problem.

Remember that you can take slicing cuts with the plane to avoid tear-out, and also that you can clamp a board to the end to avoid blow-out, or just go in with a chisel and pare.

I like to leave tails proud still, as I find it easy enough to clean up after the fact this way.

Another option if you leave the tails really proud, say 3mm or so, is to come in with a fine toothed flush-cut saw. But I prefer to pare or plane.

Don't dismiss the chisel, by the way. You can do this just as well with a wide chisel as with a plane, and you'll have much more control and be able to minimize or outright eliminate any collateral damage. I tend to use chisels for careful paring for many tasks where others reach for some other tool such as a rasp or plane or spokeshave, because I find it allows me to work carefully when the grain is tricky, and when referencing off of a flat surface, can produce flat and square cuts almost as well as a plane, or even better in many instances where the reference surface for a plane's sole would be too small.

I disagree somewhat with those who say that a properly set plane can handle any grain and wood without tearout. Don't get me wrong -- it's a noble goal, and I don't know, maybe some woodworking gods can set their planes up this way, and one should certainly try to learn to set up their planes this way, but for mere mortals, planing against tricky grain is still better avoided where possible! I'm very far from the most experienced woodworker, but I'm quite experienced with sharpening and setting up planes at this point, and even I routinely find gnarly, knotty wood that I can't plane well, as is often the case if you work with cheap, big-box store kiln dried softwoods.

[Tom Trees]

I disagree somewhat with those who say that a properly set plane can handle any grain and wood without tearout. Don't get me wrong -- it's a noble goal, and I don't know, maybe some woodworking gods can set their planes up this way, and one should certainly try to learn to set up their planes this way, but for mere mortals, planing against tricky grain is still better avoided where possible! I'm very far from the most experienced woodworker, but I'm quite experienced with sharpening and setting up planes at this point, and even I routinely find gnarly, knotty wood that I can't plane well, as is often the case if you work with cheap, big-box store kiln dried softwoods.

I just was working that pitch pine recently so thought I'd post some photos of the knots, as it's either that or the densest figured tropicals of which the "non believer" folks bring up.
I thought the pitch pine would count, not that it would matter as some folk don't want to derive from the methodology of the guru of their choice.

469880

Proof or poof?
I can't imagine having to rotate long timbers around when planing edges again, nah just flipping it over and treating everything as an agreeable material is much easier
and not trying to dodge anything or do anything other that straight shavings,
One could try and stop the cap iron from working by skewing the cut, but it will still be steep enough,
i.e you don't loose that much steepness by skewing, although mentioning that could answer a few questions.

The case could be made that skewing the cut might be causing trouble for someone who hasn't a steep enough cap iron, or hasn't it set as close.
Like walking up a mountain diagonally, isn't as steep as climbing the slope vertically.

469881469882

I've a shed full of tropical timber and never came across an example which couldn't be planed in either direction, using the settings as per what Mr Weaver (David W) on youtube or that article suggests.
469883 469885

I'll try and dig up that Cosman video for someone, to show planing methodology
Presuming folks interested would be watching David's videos on the matter.
I don't see the need for a scrub and make do with a beater no.4 with a little camber, a good bit of camber compared to something which would be the next profile
Sorry, I don't have a pic of a 1/32" camber, which is the max that the cap iron can be set away from the edge (when honed@50something)
Here is another shot of a my panel plane or finely set jack, call it what you want, influence will be achieved at this setting, whether that's enough is up to you.
It matches the densest examples timbers that I dig out of the piles, and if anything is troublesome, then the smoother will take care of that.
No tricks necessary, just treat it as if it were clear easy to work stock.
469886

Cosman's or Charlesworth's methodology will make this easy, no bad habits.
All the best

Tom

https://youtu.be/GGuGFGAQTxE?t=413

[Luke Dupont]

I just was working that pitch pine recently so thought I'd post some photos of the knots, as it's either that or the densest figured tropicals of which the "non believer" folks bring up.
I thought the pitch pine would count, not that it would matter as some folk don't want to derive from the methodology of the guru of their choice.

469880

Proof or poof?
I can't imagine having to rotate long timbers around when planing edges again, nah just flipping it over and treating everything as an agreeable material is much easier
and not trying to dodge anything or do anything other that straight shavings,
One could try and stop the cap iron from working by skewing the cut, but it will still be steep enough,
i.e you don't loose that much steepness by skewing, although mentioning that could answer a few questions.

The case could be made that skewing the cut might be causing trouble for someone who hasn't a steep enough cap iron, or hasn't it set as close.
Like walking up a mountain diagonally, isn't as steep as climbing the slope vertically.

469881469882

I've a shed full of tropical timber and never came across an example which couldn't be planed in either direction, using the settings as per what Mr Weaver (David W) on youtube or that article suggests.
469883 469885

I'll try and dig up that Cosman video for someone, to show planing methodology
Presuming folks interested would be watching David's videos on the matter.
I don't see the need for a scrub and make do with a beater no.4 with a little camber, a good bit of camber compared to something which would be the next profile
Sorry, I don't have a pic of a 1/32" camber, which is the max that the cap iron can be set away from the edge (when honed@50something)
Here is another shot of a my panel plane or finely set jack, call it what you want, influence will be achieved at this setting, whether that's enough is up to you.
It matches the densest examples timbers that I dig out of the piles, and if anything is troublesome, then the smoother will take care of that.
No tricks necessary, just treat it as if it were clear easy to work stock.
469886

Cosman's or Charlesworth's methodology will make this easy, no bad habits.
All the best

Tom

https://youtu.be/GGuGFGAQTxE?t=413


Wow, that cap iron is set much closer than I presumed you were talking about.

This does increase the pressure required to push the plane, correct? (nothing wrong with that if it works, just trying to identify some feedback parameters to know what whether or not I've got it close enough, or too close, by your definition)

Unfortunately, I can't see the other attachments. I get this error: "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator (https://sawmillcreek.org/sendmessage.php)"

[Rafael Herrera]

There's a balance between the thickness of the shaving and the closeness of the cap iron. The closer it is the thinner the shavings. The pressure to move the plane may be higher, but it is not inordinate. If you try to take too thick of a shaving, the plane will choke.

That's a piece of Indian rosewood, planed with the grain. The finish is glassy.

469887

469888

If planed against the grain I get a bit of tearout and that means I need to set the cap closer.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

super sharp, lower angle block plane against the grain should help take care of most of the proud waste end grain without impacting the long grain surface too much. Once you get it close, a little beveled planed on the corner of the box will minimize the vast majority of potential blowout. You got it!

Wait what? Low angle against the grain? either I don't understand what you mean, or it goes against everything I know about working with planes and wood grain. low angle blade against the graine is the best way to lift out the grain and create tearout.

wouldn't it be better to work with a high angle? I have an LN no.4, I converted to 55 degrees for this kind of thing - it is a vast improvement but not a foolproof fix

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

In addition to the above, pare with a chisel plane if you have one. Less chance of an oopsie than with a chisel.

I second this

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I made a jig I found helpful for setting up the cap iron - not my idea, I think C.S. mentioned it. I set a few feeler gauges on a piece of ply, I usually set the endcap around 0.007". If I have tearout I want to handle I'll go down one or two steps on the jig.
not really great for heavily cambered blades, but then again you can't really use a heavy camber with a close cap iron. I just pay close attention not to press my nice sharp blade against the steel feelers and it works pretty good.

469889

its especially good for someone trying to learn about what setting works when (such as myself).

[Tom Trees]

Wow, that cap iron is set much closer than I presumed you were talking about.

This does increase the pressure required to push the plane, correct? (nothing wrong with that if it works, just trying to identify some feedback parameters to know what whether or not I've got it close enough, or too close, by your definition)

Unfortunately, I can't see the other attachments. I get this error: "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator (https://sawmillcreek.org/sendmessage.php)"

Hello again
Rafael has answered your question better than I could.
Sorry I can't tell which photos are showing, as they all show up when posting, but I can't see them once I've put them up as I'm not a contributor, nor have I got
a external photo app like photobucket to show them either.
Must get a bit more techy and fix this issue sometime.

Going back to the basics, which isn't what anyone asked for...
Not that I totally agree with planing methodology of said Cosman video, just watched it again last night, I think the older video may have been a bit better,
but it's close enough to methods I use which will provide a fool proof method of getting to the point of full length shavings.
(I think the older publication was completely by hand)
I would have mainly started nips from the high corners, with diagonal strokes on that board after that, no scrub needed IMO.

Charlesworth's video where he was presenting and had the bottle of coke and his 5 1/2 plane was worth watching too.
He doesn't have that much content on youtube, but is worth going over all of the wee snippets also.
That might take care of finishing off Rob's video for someone.

And then plane setup, which is different from planing methodology, just mentioning that as I plane as above with the timber sitting freely on the bench.
I see some issues with doing things otherwise.

Regarding distances or honed cap angles, Derek Cohen's photos are free for someone to see.
David's videos are there, Brian Holcombe's, Dusty splinters, Hernan Costa, and a few others that I can't remember.
This is to see how heavy a cut can be taken with various timbers ect

Most of the top gurus are not showing this, even when heckled!
You can see the influenced shavings i.e straight shavings, it's easy to see whether someone is using the cap iron or not.

Tom

[steven c newman]

Hmmmm..
469907
Works for me...

[Jim Koepke]

Sorry I can't tell which photos are showing, as they all show up when posting, but I can't see them once I've put them up as I'm not a contributor, nor have I got
a external photo app like photobucket to show them either.
Must get a bit more techy and fix this issue sometime.

There is a very simple fix for this, become a contributor. Six bucks a year is a wise investment.

jtk

[Scott Clausen]

I know this is a zombie thread but it got me thinking. I if in that spot would use a sharp chisel to pare the proud ends. I would then try a very skewed plane swipe to attempt to get around the grain with a deadly sharp blade. Lastly I am getting to where I am getting this right because I have forgot to check to many times in the past, check for grain direction when selecting parts orientation prior to the dovetail process. Sash, plough and rabbit planes are a great educator on checking grain direction. If you watch Paul Sellers he always gives a very detailed look at the grain pattern and still gets it wrong at times.

[Christopher Wellington]

Scott - the trouble with selecting grain direction before starting the dovetail process is that a typical box will have dovetails on both ends of each face. You'll have the problem I described in the OP regardless of how you orient your parts.

[mike stenson]

Yep, think about it as something like this.. if you're visual (like I am)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Shop/Tool-chest/i-SvLqmP9/0/e9dcd3d7/L/IMG_6856-L.jpg

[Rafael Herrera]

You come in and plane the surface with the dovetail at the start of the cut but you find that you're planing against the grain on the face. Normally you would flip the piece around and plane the other direction, but now the joint is at the end of the cut and you're liable to blow out the corner where you're planing end grain.

How do you deal with this situation?

With the cap iron set really close to the edge and taking fine shavings with a smoother, it should be safe to plane against the grain. Even if your pins are 1/16" proud, and the endgrains will be left glistening.

If the pins are really sticking, pare them with a chisel or use a flush cutting saw, but leave the final cutting to the plane.

[Luke Dupont]

Hello again
Rafael has answered your question better than I could.
Sorry I can't tell which photos are showing, as they all show up when posting, but I can't see them once I've put them up as I'm not a contributor, nor have I got
a external photo app like photobucket to show them either.
Must get a bit more techy and fix this issue sometime.

Going back to the basics, which isn't what anyone asked for...
Not that I totally agree with planing methodology of said Cosman video, just watched it again last night, I think the older video may have been a bit better,
but it's close enough to methods I use which will provide a fool proof method of getting to the point of full length shavings.
(I think the older publication was completely by hand)
I would have mainly started nips from the high corners, with diagonal strokes on that board after that, no scrub needed IMO.

Charlesworth's video where he was presenting and had the bottle of coke and his 5 1/2 plane was worth watching too.
He doesn't have that much content on youtube, but is worth going over all of the wee snippets also.
That might take care of finishing off Rob's video for someone.

And then plane setup, which is different from planing methodology, just mentioning that as I plane as above with the timber sitting freely on the bench.
I see some issues with doing things otherwise.

Regarding distances or honed cap angles, Derek Cohen's photos are free for someone to see.
David's videos are there, Brian Holcombe's, Dusty splinters, Hernan Costa, and a few others that I can't remember.
This is to see how heavy a cut can be taken with various timbers ect

Most of the top gurus are not showing this, even when heckled!
You can see the influenced shavings i.e straight shavings, it's easy to see whether someone is using the cap iron or not.

Tom

Thanks. I just did some test planing against the grain with the iron set up to the chip breaker like you had, and I did get noticeably better results.
In a past discussion years ago, I remember there was a general discussion about the optimal position for the chip breaker being something like 1.5~2mm from the cutting edge. And that setting appears to work okay for thicker cuts as well as thinner.
But you seem to be absolutely correct in that with really thin cuts, you can get the cap iron much closer.

I had played with all of this many years ago, but it seems like I've forgotten some things and have more to learn still. I'll keep playing with this and see what I can do on some really gnarly grained boards!

[Anuj Prateek]

I use a block plane and LAJ. I start from one end and go till middle and then I start from other end. Doesn't take long to get it level.

On occasion I have also used a router with flush trim bit.