30mm vs 40mm bore size for new shaper

[Jason McCray]

I am speccing a new shaper and it will come with a single 1 1/4" spindle (I am in the USA). 30mm and 40mm spindles are also available. I've been looking primarily at Whitehill and almost all of the tooling is available in 1 1/4" and 30mm. Some stuff is also available in 40mm but I can't find anything that is *only* 40mm. Is there any reason to have a 40mm spindle?

Motor sizes are 10 hp, 13 hp, and 15 hp. 10 hp feels like it should be sufficient but the up-charge to 15 hp is small compared to the total cost of the machine. For a sliding table saw or shaper is a 15 hp motor nice to have or complete over kill. These machines are for a home / hobbyist shop and will probably be with me for life.

[Paul Haus]

Jason as someone with a 3 HP shaper, I'm having a hard time getting my head around a 10HP or better shaper for a home shop, I'd be envious but I know my electrical service wouldn't handle something that big. I would say take a look at the profiles you would want (assuming you don't have any already) and see what bores you can get them in. I would think you can get most everything in 1.25" bore cutters and only if you have one or more in some other bore size then consider those alternate spindles. For me, the biggest share of my shaper cutters are 3/4" bore with a couple of larger ones. I'm not doing production work so they work just fine for me. Worst case, can you get either or both of those alternate spindles at a later date?
My 2 cents.

[Kevin Jenness]

A 40 mm spindle could be useful for massive tooling used in a commercial millwork shop, as could a >10hp motor, but otherwise it would be overkill. 1 1/4" is the standard heavy spindle size in the US and a wide variety of tooling is available.

[brent stanley]

I am speccing a new shaper and it will come with a single 1 1/4" spindle (I am in the USA). 30mm and 40mm spindles are also available. I've been looking primarily at Whitehill and almost all of the tooling is available in 1 1/4" and 30mm. Some stuff is also available in 40mm but I can't find anything that is *only* 40mm. Is there any reason to have a 40mm spindle?

Motor sizes are 10 hp, 13 hp, and 15 hp. 10 hp feels like it should be sufficient but the up-charge to 15 hp is small compared to the total cost of the machine. For a sliding table saw or shaper is a 15 hp motor nice to have or complete over kill. These machines are for a home / hobbyist shop and will probably be with me for life.

Hi Jason, at this time Whitehill is supplying products as readily in 1.25 bore as 30mm, with blocks in 1.25 more common in NA, and 30mm more common in Europe. 10HP is a pretty serious machine and ought to do just fine even for large double discs for tenoning. I would think 40mm would make everything more of a nuisance down the line. What machine are you getting?

[Richard Coers]

You must be planning on making windows with stacked tooling? With a 15hp you would need a pretty fast power feed to utilize all that power. Going to need a hell of a dust collector to handle what that thing could make!

[Jason McCray]

Hi Jason, at this time Whitehill is supplying products as readily in 1.25 bore as 30mm, with blocks in 1.25 more common in NA, and 30mm more common in Europe. 10HP is a pretty serious machine and ought to do just fine even for large double discs for tenoning. I would think 40mm would make everything more of a nuisance down the line. What machine are you getting?

I have a preference towards metric and so will probably go with 30mm even thought 1 1/4" probably makes more sense. Aside from being easier to source in the USA, everything I was interested in at Whitehill was available at 1 1/4" in addition to 30mm. Nothing at Whitehill was limited to 40mm, that I could find, but I am sure 40mm has its place.

The machines are a Martin T27 shaper and T75 saw. They are both available with the same 10, 13, or 15 hp motor. I think even the 10 hp is overkill for my current needs but the larger motor is a minor cost compared to the overall cost of each machine. The compelling reason for going smaller is easing electrical requirements. At present I am limited to 100A of 240V single phase service. These two machines require 480V power so I will need a PhasePerfect to convert to the 3-phase 240V, then a transformer to go from 240V delta to 480V Wye (PhasePerfect does have voltage doubling versions but I will have other 240V 3-phase equipment so that may not be the best route to go).

Aside from bore size on the shaper the other option to consider is arbor type: the standard is SK40 but HSK85 and HSK63F are both options.

[Mike Kees]

Have you ever even used a shaper before ?

[Warren Lake]

No brainer for me since it keeps auction stuff open. 1 1/4" 98 percent of the shapers in auctions ive seen are 1 1/4" and so the tooling is or larger think ive got stuff to 50 MM likely Weinig that came with other stuff I bought. I saw one 30 MM shaper for sale and tons of tooling once up here in tons of years. If you are going all new stuff and reasons to then whatever you prefer. LIkely bushings to go from 30 MM to 1 1/4". Never checked but the Weinig head i have came with bushings for 1 1/4" which was nice of them.

[Erik Loza]

Have you ever even used a shaper before ?

+1. To the OP, let's back up a second: What's the full story here? New production shop? Rich hobbyist dream shop? These questions are like, "I'm going to buy a Ferrari. What weight oil does it take?"

I can tell you that 1.25" would be the overwhelmingly most popular bore diameter and that there is very little need for an HSK63 spindle unless you plan to do MANY profiles on this machine or unless you already own an industrial CNC router. OP, help us help you out here.

Erik

[Jason McCray]

+1. To the OP, let's back up a second: What's the full story here? New production shop? Rich hobbyist dream shop? These questions are like, "I'm going to buy a Ferrari. What weight oil does it take?"

I can tell you that 1.25" would be the overwhelmingly most popular bore diameter and that there is very little need for an HSK63 spindle unless you plan to do MANY profiles on this machine or unless you already own an industrial CNC router. OP, help us help you out here.

Erik

I had a shaper on my combination machine a few years back but didn't use it much - or the rest of the shop, for that matter, was very busy with work at the time. Have since moved and retired and starting fresh with a dedicated detached building (not purpose built but what was existing on the lot). I do know I want separate machines now (not the 5 in 1 combo) and the money is there to go high end. So I guess this isn't about need but how to configure the dream shop?

[Erik Loza]

I had a shaper on my combination machine a few years back but didn't use it much - or the rest of the shop, for that matter, was very busy with work at the time. Have since moved and retired and starting fresh with a dedicated detached building (not purpose built but what was existing on the lot). I do know I want separate machines now (not the 5 in 1 combo) and the money is there to go high end. So I guess this isn't about need but how to configure the dream shop?

Gotcha. OK, my suggestions which you may feel free to do with as you like:

-On the shaper, go 1.25".
-Talk to Rangate for your tooling needs. If you are planning to buy a power feeder, buy one of the Comatic DC units, probably a 4-wheeler on your machine.
-Do NOT get an HSK spindle on this machine. Whatever Martin's "standard" spindle is, is what you want.
-On the slider, 10HP is plenty for most needs. Ditto on the shaper.
-If Martin offers an option for free trigger leads on their machines, get that. It will make them easier to wire into your dust collection system.

As a general note, I would avoid as much automation and bells/whistles as possible. This is blanket advice to any hobbyist/home shop. "Yes", fancy, but there WILL be electronic issues at some point and obviously, there is a cost (out of the customer's pocket) to have those things handled. Less of cost to have those things handled if the dealership is somewhat local but realize that if a tech has to get on a plane, you're paying for all that. Even my shops that take great care of their equipment are calling Tech Support every so often. I have a local shop that is running a bunch of machines off a PP converter. They did everything right and my tech still had to come back after the initial install because the machinery was fighting with something about the PP. They got it sorted out but point being, none of that was free. Good luck with your project.

Erik

[Jason McCray]

Gotcha. OK, my suggestions which you may feel free to do with as you like:

-On the shaper, go 1.25".
-Talk to Rangate for your tooling needs. If you are planning to buy a power feeder, buy one of the Comatic DC units, probably a 4-wheeler on your machine.
-Do NOT get an HSK spindle on this machine. Whatever Martin's "standard" spindle is, is what you want.
-On the slider, 10HP is plenty for most needs. Ditto on the shaper.
-If Martin offers an option for free trigger leads on their machines, get that. It will make them easier to wire into your dust collection system.

As a general note, I would avoid as much automation and bells/whistles as possible. This is blanket advice to any hobbyist/home shop. "Yes", fancy, but there WILL be electronic issues at some point and obviously, there is a cost (out of the customer's pocket) to have those things handled. Less of cost to have those things handled if the dealership is somewhat local but realize that if a tech has to get on a plane, you're paying for all that. Even my shops that take great care of their equipment are calling Tech Support every so often. I have a local shop that is running a bunch of machines off a PP converter. They did everything right and my tech still had to come back after the initial install because the machinery was fighting with something about the PP. They got it sorted out but point being, none of that was free. Good luck with your project.

Erik

Is there a downside to the HSK spindles, outside of the cost?

The automation and high-tech features are definitely a concern to me. I plan to have this stuff for a long time and I don't want the machines themselves to be a headache. The touch screens on them, in particular, I imagine will look very dated in 10 or 20 years (if they are still working). But none of the shapers from Martin and only the T60 saw are available without them.

Where do you draw the line? Is motorized height adjustment on a planer worth it?

This is all stuff I've run through but you've got me rethinking it.

[Joe Calhoon]

Jason,
HSK 63 is good if you want to share tooling with a CNC router or if you are a shop running 3 to 5 profiles constantly. HSK 85 is good if you want to share tooling with a Weinig moulder with the same system. Otherwise the Dornfix is good for general woodworking where many cutters are used. The Dornfix shafts can be changed in less than a minute so you are not saving much time on shaft changing vs the HSK. Aftermarket HSK shafts can be had cheaper than the Dornfix shafts though if you are planning on having a lot of shafts. In my shop I have 5 or 6 Dornfix shafts in sizes 30mm, 1.25, 40 and 50mm. Most used is the 30 and 40mm. 1.25 will cover most needs in a home shop. One advantage of 30 is you can run 1.25 on a 30 but not the other way around. I use 40 a lot in my shop because I make windows and doors with heavy tooling. You can spin up to about 320 diameter tenon disks with a 1.25 shaft but if you run tenon heads a lot the 40 is better and less wear on the bearings. Also if doing much tenoning the Dornfix shafts will take more weight and tool stack than the HSK.
If you ordered the power feed arm you will be getting a Wegoma feeder and will be way better than the DC40 smart stand setup.

[Kevin Jenness]

I had a shaper on my combination machine a few years back but didn't use it much -

I would strongly suggest getting some hands-on training. Joe Calhoon runs workshops that I am sure you would find worthwhile. https://alpineworkshops.com/workshops/advanced-joinery.html

[Joe Calhoon]

The electronics are a worry for sure but hard to escape on most any new machinery now. I bought my Martin’s new 22 to 20 years ago. The electronic stuff was just starting then. I am now just starting to have small issues on the the shaper and saw. It’s usually something simple but trying to figure out what is the issue. I believe the new Martin’s have better electronics than my vintage but they are also more complex. That is one thing I like about the Hofmann machines is a top notch machine can be ordered with minimal electronics if you wish. Unfortunately they are not readily available here. The Martin planer and jointer are pretty simple on the electronics and should not give any trouble. Really nice on the planer to go to certain dimensions then return to them if you have to. Also the ability to take off just 0.1mm if needed. I could never go back to a old school planer.
10 Hp will be just about right especially if you ordered the inverter as you loose a little HP with those. My vintage T23 has a 6.5 - 7.5 and it does fine tenoning till you get to white oak. A couple passes in harder wood is not the end of the world. My T26 has the 13 HP and only a few times when I felt that was needed.
I’ve restored a couple vintage Martin machine and joked with my shop associate that I felt like I was restoring a rotary dial phone! He said, yes but every time you push the button they will start! I love these machines but like all the safety and convenience features of the new machines. Some things have been lost but more gains than losses.

[Joe Calhoon]

I would strongly suggest getting some hands-on training. Joe Calhoon runs workshops that I am sure you would find worthwhile. https://alpineworkshops.com/workshops/advanced-joinery.html
Thanks for the plug Kevin! I’d do try not to sell the Workshops on the forums. Only offer advice if I can.

[Patrick Kane]

Maybe a dumb question, but the Martin doesnt have interchangeable spindles? You can always get multiple spindles. I run a 1.25" spindle on my Felder, and frankly, i think 30mm might have made more sense. As Joe says, you can bush 1.25" to fit on a 30mm spindle. Not the case with 1.25" spindle. Something to think about if the arbor on the T75 is 30mm, 40mm, etc. You will be able to use adjustable groovers interchangeably between the shaper and the saw, which is convenient. My Felder 700 series is a 30mm arbor and i have the 1.25" spindle, so it lead to me having redundant tooling because of the bore diameter. Dumb.

Other than that, i think everyone covered everything already. What do you care about auctions and second hand tooling? You are about to spend $80-100,000 on two tools, buy new through Rangate! Considering the circumstances, i request you film yourself firing up the 15hp T27 the first time with the biggest tooling it can take : )

Are you getting the t45 and t54 to complete the set? That is a truly enviable shop setup. My goal is to have circa 1999-2000 Martin equipment one day.

If you would prefer, i can trade you a vintage Martin T17 without electronics for your T75? In fact, ill throw in the remainder of my shop equipment as an added bonus! Say what you will about electronics failure, the new stuff has to be significantly nicer/better than the old stuff. I owned a vintage t75, and your contemporary t75 will be 50x the better machine to operate.

[Erik Loza]

...Where do you draw the line?...

Since you asked, here are my thoughts for the HOME SHOP...

-The more analog your machine is, the better. Powered raising/lowering on planer tables or powered movements on a saw unit are fine but I would avoid things like motorized rip fences and programmability. These are what will be both expensive to troubleshoot and repair when/if and also, when they fail, render the entire machine useless.

-I'm an advocate single-phase machinery for home shops if at all possible. Sure, you'll be replacing capacitors at some point but by the time you get done installing a PP, it will be $10K. $10K buys a lot of machine/tooling/accessories. Obviously, if you're needing a 20" planer or big shaper, your only options will be 3ph. but I've accumulated enough happy 1ph customers over the years that told me it really simplified their lives.

-Machinery like what you asking for is awesome but also, way overkill. Of course, you are probably aware of that and perhaps you just want to own some beasts (nothing wrong there) but there is no project you will undertake that machinery half or even a third the price won't accomplish just as well. My Seiko Divemaster keeps just as good time as a Rolex Submariner, if you get my meaning.

-Based on experience, I can tell you that my happiest home ww'er customers have bought machinery which is "enough" (of which there are many choices), then actually spent most of their money on outfitting their machines with options or their shops with things that make life better/easier from an ergonomic perspective. For example, an analog sliding table with digital stops rather than motorized. Complete accuracy and nothing to go wrong or fail. Or, things like mobile trolleys, fence and safety accessories, shaper jigs, etc. You and I could run the same board through a $4K Hammer planer and a Martin planer and you could not tell the difference in the result. Sure, I would never suggest a $4K planer for a production millshop but point being that if you are the type of person just wants to make the occasional project on nice equipment, there are MANY options that will give you the exact same result as the iron beasts. Hope this all makes sense,

Erik

[Jason McCray]

Jason,
HSK 63 is good if you want to share tooling with a CNC router or if you are a shop running 3 to 5 profiles constantly. HSK 85 is good if you want to share tooling with a Weinig moulder with the same system. Otherwise the Dornfix is good for general woodworking where many cutters are used. The Dornfix shafts can be changed in less than a minute so you are not saving much time on shaft changing vs the HSK. Aftermarket HSK shafts can be had cheaper than the Dornfix shafts though if you are planning on having a lot of shafts. In my shop I have 5 or 6 Dornfix shafts in sizes 30mm, 1.25, 40 and 50mm. Most used is the 30 and 40mm. 1.25 will cover most needs in a home shop. One advantage of 30 is you can run 1.25 on a 30 but not the other way around. I use 40 a lot in my shop because I make windows and doors with heavy tooling. You can spin up to about 320 diameter tenon disks with a 1.25 shaft but if you run tenon heads a lot the 40 is better and less wear on the bearings. Also if doing much tenoning the Dornfix shafts will take more weight and tool stack than the HSK.
If you ordered the power feed arm you will be getting a Wegoma feeder and will be way better than the DC40 smart stand setup.

This is very useful information. How is the Dornfix spindle removed?

Either of the HSK spindles require the variable speed motor which is only available at 480V 3-phase. A complication, but also a challenge that is intriguing me. The large sliding table mounted on the left side also requires the variable speed motor and the T75 saw is 480V in any configuration.

[Warren Lake]

Good point on the auction tooling not being a consideration if you are ubber rich. Its more for people like me and the old guys in the trade that I knew.

[Warren Lake]

A tool and die maker told me years ago ad a top spindle support.

He knew zero about woodworking shapers but he was euro trained in his trade at the best time and it was a smart statement that came from bearing and spindle knowledge just applied to our trade. You will see top bearing supports on some older Bauerle and other quality shapers.

[Jason McCray]

Maybe a dumb question, but the Martin doesnt have interchangeable spindles? You can always get multiple spindles. I run a 1.25" spindle on my Felder, and frankly, i think 30mm might have made more sense. As Joe says, you can bush 1.25" to fit on a 30mm spindle. Not the case with 1.25" spindle. Something to think about if the arbor on the T75 is 30mm, 40mm, etc. You will be able to use adjustable groovers interchangeably between the shaper and the saw, which is convenient. My Felder 700 series is a 30mm arbor and i have the 1.25" spindle, so it lead to me having redundant tooling because of the bore diameter. Dumb.

Other than that, i think everyone covered everything already. What do you care about auctions and second hand tooling? You are about to spend $80-100,000 on two tools, buy new through Rangate! Considering the circumstances, i request you film yourself firing up the 15hp T27 the first time with the biggest tooling it can take : )

Are you getting the t45 and t54 to complete the set? That is a truly enviable shop setup. My goal is to have circa 1999-2000 Martin equipment one day.

If you would prefer, i can trade you a vintage Martin T17 without electronics for your T75? In fact, ill throw in the remainder of my shop equipment as an added bonus! Say what you will about electronics failure, the new stuff has to be significantly nicer/better than the old stuff. I owned a vintage t75, and your contemporary t75 will be 50x the better machine to operate.

They are interchangeable and 30mm is nice since it matches the saw arbor. The T75 is limited to 6mm dadoes but the T70 can do 20mm, and it could use the same adjustable groover from the shaper.

I am doing a T45 and T54 as well. Configuration there is a little easier but I will post for comments: the planer will have the 2nd rubber outfeed roller, 2-12m / min variable feed, Xplane helical cutter, motor upgrade from 7.5 hp to 10 hp, a 450mm foldable table extension on the infeed and a 1200mm non-foldable extension on outfeed. Jointer will be Xplane as well and infeed and outfeed extensions.

Question is what bandsaw will fit in best?

What might be less enviable is the space I'm fitting it all in, which is about 25 ft by 30 ft. I've done some layout work in Sketchup and I think I can make it work but it will be tight. I've seriously considered (and am still thinking about) not doing a saw or shaper at all; just jointer, planer, and 1 or 2 big bandsaws, plus a Festool tracksaw (and the new STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table) for cutting up plywood. But I'm not sure that it would be as fun.

[Kevin Jenness]

What might be less enviable is the space I'm fitting it all in, which is about 25 ft by 30 ft. I've done some layout work in Sketchup and I think I can make it work but it will be tight. I've seriously considered (and am still thinking about) not doing a saw or shaper at all; just jointer, planer, and 1 or 2 big bandsaws, plus a Festool tracksaw (and the new STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table) for cutting up plywood. But I'm not sure that it would be as fun.

Maybe you should dip your toe in, figure out what sort of projects you really like to do and then decide on equipment. It strikes me as a bit odd that you would seriously consider buying the two machines under discussion without being sure whether or not you need them or if two bandsaws would suffice. I have no idea what your life is like but if you could spend a few months in a training program or taking workshops someplace like the Marc Adams school you might find a focus that would make clear what you really want and need. If you decide you want to make dollhouse furniture or netsuke your choice of gear will be much different than for millwork, turning or period furniture. If you want to do larger projects perhaps some of your budget would be better spent on more space.

[Joe Calhoon]

This is very useful information. How is the Dornfix spindle removed?

Either of the HSK spindles require the variable speed motor which is only available at 480V 3-phase. A complication, but also a challenge that is intriguing me. The large sliding table mounted on the left side also requires the variable speed motor and the T75 saw is 480V in any configuration.
Jason,
Yes the vary speed is required for HSK and side mount sliding table. On the sliding table for a slow start with the big disks. I have used the T27 and T12 with the programmable speed and have to admit it is very nice. You can really fine tune for noise and cut quality. Of course your adding more electronics but that issue you will have to figure out for yourself.
the side mount sliding table is the best there is. The one downside is it’s a bit of a changeover because fence has to be removed and a tenon hood installed. Takes a few minutes. I keep my vintage Martin set up with the sliding table most of the time just to avoid change over. The bolt on sliding table is a good option and very quick to set up. It’s faster and more accurate to set. Way better than any of the intable sliders that is common on a lot of euro shapers. It’s limits is when you are tenoning and slotting long heavy workpieces.
the Dornfix or SK 40 as it’s called is very quick to change. Just a little turn of the torque wrench and it’s out. A lot of times if I’m back and fourth a lot I just set up 2 or 3 spindles and just change them. HSK has its place and useful in some situations but I use a lot of cutters on a regular basis and it would take 50k of shafts to keep them all.
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[brent stanley]

I have a preference towards metric and so will probably go with 30mm even thought 1 1/4" probably makes more sense. Aside from being easier to source in the USA, everything I was interested in at Whitehill was available at 1 1/4" in addition to 30mm. Nothing at Whitehill was limited to 40mm, that I could find, but I am sure 40mm has its place.

The machines are a Martin T27 shaper and T75 saw. They are both available with the same 10, 13, or 15 hp motor. I think even the 10 hp is overkill for my current needs but the larger motor is a minor cost compared to the overall cost of each machine. The compelling reason for going smaller is easing electrical requirements. At present I am limited to 100A of 240V single phase service. These two machines require 480V power so I will need a PhasePerfect to convert to the 3-phase 240V, then a transformer to go from 240V delta to 480V Wye (PhasePerfect does have voltage doubling versions but I will have other 240V 3-phase equipment so that may not be the best route to go).

Aside from bore size on the shaper the other option to consider is arbor type: the standard is SK40 but HSK85 and HSK63F are both options.

I would probably go with 30mm and just bush out to 1.25" if you ever need to run a larger bore. 30mm will give you up to 300mm discs on a heavy Martin and is serious kit. If you find a need down the line for a heavy 40mm spindle you can get it then. Not all blocks can be rebored to a larger size, especially hard up to 40mm so 30mm gives you the most flexibility.

The standard Martin spindle system is well respected and will serve you just fine. HSK kit is typically for commercial operations (often with CNC) that value quick changeovers and are often set as "zero set". I've never sold any HSK kit to a non-commercial user.

[Michael Todrin]

If you are looking for Martin level in bandsaws, look no farther than Hema.

https://www.hema-saegen.de/en/home/products/bandsaw-technology/

I have an older UH630 and it is a remarkable machine.

[Mel Fulks]

No brainer for me since it keeps auction stuff open. 1 1/4" 98 percent of the shapers in auctions ive seen are 1 1/4" and so the tooling is or larger think ive got stuff to 50 MM likely Weinig that came with other stuff I bought. I saw one 30 MM shaper for sale and tons of tooling once up here in tons of years. If you are going all new stuff and reasons to then whatever you prefer. LIkely bushings to go from 30 MM to 1 1/4". Never checked but the Weinig head i have came with bushings for 1 1/4" which was nice of them.
“
Yep. Should be 1and 1/4 spindle or changeable spindles. And there is a lot more used commercial shop type stuff for sale than used hobby stuff, the hobbyists like to think “every time I think I’m out , they pull me back in !”
since the hobby guys who quit still want to “keep their hobby” in the drawer.

[Rod Sheridan]

Go with the 30mm spindle, most of the tooling in the world is metric…..Rod

[Patrick Kane]

I have a dozen and a half used steel body cutterheads from auctions for pretty cheap. All 1-1/4” and 40m. None were 30mm. I’ve yet to find sets of adjustable groovers at auction, unfortunately.

For God’s sake, stop trying to talk this guy out of buying the machines. I just want to see the photos upon delivery.

25x30 is super lame for those machines to live in. I have a 20” jointer, 20” planer, Oliver 232, and a much smaller Felder than your future t75. I’m tripping machinery and project parts any time I work in my 650-700sqfr space. I would desperately find a means of expanding that footprint.

Why does the t75 not take wider tooling? That is a little disappointing for their flagship super expensive saw.

Interestingly enough Martin doesn’t seem to be experiencing the same supply chain woes as everyone else. I know someone that ordered a t65 recently and it will be here early February ‘22.

[Jason McCray]

I have a dozen and a half used steel body cutterheads from auctions for pretty cheap. All 1-1/4” and 40m. None were 30mm. I’ve yet to find sets of adjustable groovers at auction, unfortunately.

For God’s sake, stop trying to talk this guy out of buying the machines. I just want to see the photos upon delivery.

25x30 is super lame for those machines to live in. I have a 20” jointer, 20” planer, Oliver 232, and a much smaller Felder than your future t75. I’m tripping machinery and project parts any time I work in my 650-700sqfr space. I would desperately find a means of expanding that footprint.

Why does the t75 not take wider tooling? That is a little disappointing for their flagship super expensive saw.

Interestingly enough Martin doesn’t seem to be experiencing the same supply chain woes as everyone else. I know someone that ordered a t65 recently and it will be here early February ‘22.

The T75 can be configured with a rip capacity as small as 850mm and a slider as short as 1.9m. I was going to do 1350mm rip and 3.3m slider. How big is your Felder?

The high end SCM L'Invincible with a dual tilting blade doesn't support dado sets at all, so it must be related to the +-45 arbor tilt. The T70 that tilts only to the right will take tooling up to 20mm wide.

[Kevin Jenness]

For God’s sake, stop trying to talk this guy out of buying the machines. I just want to see the photos upon delivery.

25x30 is super lame for those machines to live in. I have a 20” jointer, 20” planer, Oliver 232, and a much smaller Felder than your future t75. I’m tripping machinery and project parts any time I work in my 650-700sqfr space. I would desperately find a means of expanding that footprint.

I just want to know what he plans to do with them. If it's a trophy shop just because he can, nothing wrong with that. If he wants a full kit of Martins plus two big bandsaws he'll probably want a bigger shop. If he can't decide between the panel saw and shaper vs two bandsaws and a tracksaw it rouses my curiosity.

For what it's worth, I have a 720 sq. ft. machine room with a 2.5 m. slider, 16" jointer and planer, 36" bandsaw, medium duty shaper, chopsaw, edge sander, slot mortiser, lathe, spindle sander, plywood rack, wood stove and enough room to maneuver materials and finished work. What it lacks is assembly and finishing space which happens elsewhere. I'm sure Jason can fit his projected machines into the space available. More room would be a plus for sure, if possible.

[Larry Edgerton]

It would seem to me being as the spindles are interchangeable that the answer is to buy all three sizes. I have four for my shaper. I run large tenoning disks on 9 HP and it does not slow down, so I would say that 10 is fine. Exciting stuff you have going on, congrats.

[Erik Loza]

Not trying to butt back in but “if” that Martin saw is 480V, that means it has a DC electrospindle-type motor rather than a traditional induction motor. I have a customer with a Kappa 590E (also DC motor, same class as T75) who probably is a similar type of buyer to the OP. He got talked into that machine by a former rep and told me that he now regrets not getting something a little more sane. Apparently, it doesn’t cut your standard sheet goods or 8/4, 12/4, etc. lumber very well. The way the rpm range is geared on that thing, even dialed up all the way, blade speed is not quite fast enough to get good cuts with 12” or 14” blades. This never would have occurred to me unless someone mentioned it or, I guess, I ran into it myself but point being, machines this size/spec are designed for a specific task and in the case of the K590E or that Martin, it’s for cutting huge architectural timbers with an 18” or 20” blade, not our vanilla 12” or 14” blades.

Now, I suppose the VFD could be reprogrammed but regardless, this thing is a Formula-1 car and there wiil be a price to pay for trying to make it a daily driver. Since dado got mentioned, how will it cut with a 10” dado stack or even a 300mm slotting cutter? You want run an 18” blade on it for everday use? Everyone’s wallet is their own and they should buy what they want but the rubber hits the road at some point.

Erik

[Jason McCray]

Not trying to butt back in but “if” that Martin saw is 480V, that means it has a DC electrospindle-type motor rather than a traditional induction motor. I have a customer with a Kappa 590E (also DC motor, same class as T75) who probably is a similar type of buyer to the OP. He got talked into that machine by a former rep and told me that he now regrets not getting something a little more sane. Apparently, it doesn’t cut your standard sheet goods or 8/4, 12/4, etc. lumber very well. The way the rpm range is geared on that thing, even dialed up all the way, blade speed is not quite fast enough to get good cuts with 12” or 14” blades. This never would have occurred to me unless someone mentioned it or, I guess, I ran into it myself but point being, machines this size/spec are designed for a specific task and in the case of the K590E or that Martin, it’s for cutting huge architectural timbers with an 18” or 20” blade, not our vanilla 12” or 14” blades.

Now, I suppose the VFD could be reprogrammed but regardless, this thing is a Formula-1 car and there wiil be a price to pay for trying to make it a daily driver. Since dado got mentioned, how will it cut with a 10” dado stack or even a 300mm slotting cutter? You want run an 18” blade on it for everday use? Everyone’s wallet is their own and they should buy what they want but the rubber hits the road at some point.

Erik

I think the variable speed motor is still a traditional induction motor. I don't see anything that indicates otherwise but I will ask.

The T70 without the variable speed motor runs the blade at 2800, 4000, or 5000 rpm using a 240V 3-phase motor and a typical belt change system. Upgrading to the variable speed motor (which the T75 always has) requires 480V and runs the blade at 2000 to 6000 rpm. For comparison the base model Martin saw (T60) runs at fixed speeds in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range.

The T70 and T75 do support a blade up to 550mm diameter (nearly 22") but it requires the scoring unit to come out and I don't think the blade guards can be used. The default blade is 350mm (a bit under 14").

The T70 supports a dado up to 20mm wide (a bit over 3/4"). The T75 is limited to 6mm because of the left tilt ability. Similarly configured the T75 costs 10% more than a T70 to gain that dual tilt ability but it loses the dado capacity. I think I know which way I'm going, but I'm still unsure about the variable speed motor (more so with the shaper).

[Joe Calhoon]

Not trying to butt back in but “if” that Martin saw is 480V, that means it has a DC electrospindle-type motor rather than a traditional induction motor. I have a customer with a Kappa 590E (also DC motor, same class as T75) who probably is a similar type of buyer to the OP. He got talked into that machine by a former rep and told me that he now regrets not getting something a little more sane. Apparently, it doesn’t cut your standard sheet goods or 8/4, 12/4, etc. lumber very well. The way the rpm range is geared on that thing, even dialed up all the way, blade speed is not quite fast enough to get good cuts with 12” or 14” blades. This never would have occurred to me unless someone mentioned it or, I guess, I ran into it myself but point being, machines this size/spec are designed for a specific task and in the case of the K590E or that Martin, it’s for cutting huge architectural timbers with an 18” or 20” blade, not our vanilla 12” or 14” blades.

Now, I suppose the VFD could be reprogrammed but regardless, this thing is a Formula-1 car and there wiil be a price to pay for trying to make it a daily driver. Since dado got mentioned, how will it cut with a 10” dado stack or even a 300mm slotting cutter? You want run an 18” blade on it for everday use? Everyone’s wallet is their own and they should buy what they want but the rubber hits the road at some point.

Erik

Neither the T75 saw or T27shaper is an electro spindle and won’t have any of the problems you mention

[Joe Calhoon]

I think the variable speed motor is still a traditional induction motor. I don't see anything that indicates otherwise but I will ask.

The T70 without the variable speed motor runs the blade at 2800, 4000, or 5000 rpm using a 240V 3-phase motor and a typical belt change system. Upgrading to the variable speed motor (which the T75 always has) requires 480V and runs the blade at 2000 to 6000 rpm. For comparison the base model Martin saw (T60) runs at fixed speeds in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range.

The T70 and T75 do support a blade up to 550mm diameter (nearly 22") but it requires the scoring unit to come out and I don't think the blade guards can be used. The default blade is 350mm (a bit under 14").

The T70 supports a dado up to 20mm wide (a bit over 3/4"). The T75 is limited to 6mm because of the left tilt ability. Similarly configured the T75 costs 10% more than a T70 to gain that dual tilt ability but it loses the dado capacity. I think I know which way I'm going, but I'm still unsure about the variable speed motor (more so with the shaper).
Jason
i can understand no dado capacity in the T75 as it tilts both ways. They have lost a little capacity on the newer saws but 20 mm should be workable. My 20 year old T72 has about 35mm dado or shaper tooling capacity but a bit of a chore to set it up. You have to remove the throat plate and remove a spacer from the spindle. Super clean cuts are possible though with adjustable groovers. Part of my motive for restoring the old T17 is that it is easy to set up a dado or shaper cutter up to about 65mm plus wide.
the T72 will take a 20” blade and yes the scoring blade and its guard have to be removed. Not a huge chore. I don’t use the 20” often but when I do set it at the low speed. Normally I run a 14” blade as I build a lot of 3” thick doors and windows. 12” blade works well for most cabinet work. Last picture is from the newer saw with adjustable groover tilted.
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[Erik Loza]

Neither the T75 saw or T27shaper is an electro spindle and won’t have any of the problems you mention

Just curious: Why would it be 480V then?

Erik

[Erik Loza]

I think the variable speed motor is still a traditional induction motor. I don't see anything that indicates otherwise but I will ask

If the machine is 480V, that means it’s supplied with a transformer (we do the same) and the only reason you would supply a transformer is if you are supplying a DC motor for stepless rpm control. Just like a CNC router. I rarely see new Martin machines in shops in my area but I would assume they use the same motor technology as everyone else in this regard?

Erik

[Patrick Kane]

The T75 can be configured with a rip capacity as small as 850mm and a slider as short as 1.9m. I was going to do 1350mm rip and 3.3m slider. How big is your Felder?

The high end SCM L'Invincible with a dual tilting blade doesn't support dado sets at all, so it must be related to the +-45 arbor tilt. The T70 that tilts only to the right will take tooling up to 20mm wide.


Ah, the dual tilt makes a lot of sense. My Felder is an 80" table with 36" rip capacity. Both are dumb setups for a single saw shop. Its why i added a little Oliver 232 for most of my longer solid wood rips, but really, i would be better served with just one sliding table saw with a 10' table and 48-49" rip. I do use 3/4"+/- wide dados in the Felder somewhat often. To be honest, it would be a bummer to be limited to 1/4" dados on my only saw in the shop. What do you lose on the T70 that the T75 has? Other than dual tilt. I havent experience a need for beveling the blade one direction versus the other, and i have to think i would prefer the wider dado capacity.

[Jason McCray]

Ah, the dual tilt makes a lot of sense. My Felder is an 80" table with 36" rip capacity. Both are dumb setups for a single saw shop. Its why i added a little Oliver 232 for most of my longer solid wood rips, but really, i would be better served with just one sliding table saw with a 10' table and 48-49" rip. I do use 3/4"+/- wide dados in the Felder somewhat often. To be honest, it would be a bummer to be limited to 1/4" dados on my only saw in the shop. What do you lose on the T70 that the T75 has? Other than dual tilt. I havent experience a need for beveling the blade one direction versus the other, and i have to think i would prefer the wider dado capacity.

The T75 might have a slightly larger base table but otherwise just the dual tilt. At the cost of the dado capacity and 240V fixed speed motor option that the T70 offers (the T70 can still do the larger variable speed motors if desired).

The T70 also has an option for a motorized crosscut fence which even I think might be a step too far.

[Kevin Jenness]

The T70 also has an option for a motorized crosscut fence which even I think might be a step too far.

Oh come on, it's just a one time expense.:) Might as well get the vacuslide table as well.

[Joe Calhoon]

Just curious: Why would it be 480V then?

Erik

Martin requires any machines with variable speed to be 480 volt here.

[andrew whicker]

Haha, I love how many of you are living vicariously thru this person's shop budget.

:)

On an honest note, depending on where you live, you may be able to take a "personal projects" class a local college that is stacked with super nice equipment. A lot of retired people do that here (along w/ having their own woodshops) and get to work on projects with top of the line drum sanders, rip saws, sliding saws, jointers, planers, shapers, cnc, etc.

[Albert Lee]

I took delivery of a SCM TI145 spindle moulder around mid of this year, I was so happy with the moulder, 2 months after receiving the moulder I put down the deposit for a L'Invincibile si X saw (the one tilts both way), I am a one man shop with a full time job not related to woodworking, woodworking is only a source of income so I can buy better machine/tools, and my workshop is where I spend my weekend/after hours.

my spindle moulder is 7.5kw, 9kw was optional but 7.5kw is plenty for what I do. it has a interchangeable spindle, I have 30 mm spindle on mine, automated fence, rise, angle.

40mm tooling are available with most tooling supplier but they are mostly indented/special order, sometimes it may take awhile for these to be made, and 30mm tooling are often off the shelf.

If your spindle moulder comes with side table then it will requires a big space to operate, ie, when cutting angled tenon, my workshop is 9 m x 6m (600sqft), the operating manual says I need 8 x 5m(500sqft) to operate the spindle moulder comfortably..

We dont have Martin here in New Zealand, otherwise I might consider Martin - it seems my L'Invincibile saw costed more than a T75 Prex...

Any regret buying a big spindle moulder for a home shop? yes - there is only one, The SCM is so well made that I should have bought top of the line L'Invincibile. if you are spending $ on big machinery like this you must know it is entirely possible that you might upgrade on a later date, its only $$.

some photos of me preparing to do flooring.

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I had to pull the SM forward to carry out angled tenon cut.
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On a side note - 4 months after I paid my deposit for my L'Invicibile, SCM announced their new control panel for their machines, touch screen and modernised compare to previous control panel. I emailed SCM NZ, long story short, I can upgrade my control panel to the newer version but there will be a delay of 2 months - I am fine with this

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[Jason McCray]

If your spindle moulder comes with side table then it will requires a big space to operate, ie, when cutting angled tenon, my workshop is 9 m x 6m (600sqft), the operating manual says I need 8 x 5m(500sqft) to operate the spindle moulder comfortably..

We dont have Martin here in New Zealand, otherwise I might consider Martin - it seems my L'Invincibile saw costed more than a T75 Prex...

Any regret buying a big spindle moulder for a home shop? yes - there is only one, The SCM is so well made that I should have bought top of the line L'Invincibile. if you are spending $ on big machinery like this you must know it is entirely possible that you might upgrade on a later date, its only $$.
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Would you still do the side mounted sliding table if you were just doing this as a hobby (one-off projects)? My limitation, like yours, is space, but it doesn't look like the sliding table on the Martin or the SCM takes up any more space than the side extension table when it isn't in use.

[Joe Calhoon]

Jason, the side mount table does not take up any more room but as Albert mentioned if doing angle cuts you may have to pull it out from the wall for clearance.

[Joe Calhoon]

Albert, your shop is looking good! The L’Invincible line is available here but not well represented by SCM for info on them. I remember touring the SCM booth at the Milan show and they had the whole line up set up and making furniture, doors etc with knowledgeable techs to answer questions. I had some of the early L’Invincible machines back in the 70s and 80s.
question, with the long pull out bar on the front how does the sliding table clear that? I have seen some SCM side mount shapers with a pull out bar that retracted so the side table would clear. Maybe I am just missing this in your picture. That is a good idea if yours is equipped like that. Martin shortens the bar in this case with the idea that you use the sliding table for support in the lower position. At the Italian show they had a shaper equipped with a bead saw. Most mfgs don’t offer that option anymore.

[Warren Lake]

whats a bead saw?

[David Kumm]

I may have missed the discussion about power but if you are buying these types of machines you need to upgrade your power supply. 100 amps at 240v will make 15 hp machines a challenge when you couple them with at least a 5 hp dust collector and air compressor. A shaper with that capacity is better off with a 7.5 hp DC. If the spindles change fairly easily, get a 1.25" and 30MM and buy the 40mm bushings from Bobby at Woodworkers tool works. You won't use 40mm enough to need the spindle.

Sounds like this is your dream shop so if you drop 250K for machines and tooling, you want at least 200 amps and a 20 or 30 hp phase perfect. It won't be long before you want a Wide Belt sander and they take amps to run. Dave

[Albert Lee]

Would you still do the side mounted sliding table if you were just doing this as a hobby (one-off projects)? My limitation, like yours, is space, but it doesn't look like the sliding table on the Martin or the SCM takes up any more space than the side extension table when it isn't in use.

yes, I will still do it, the side sliding table enables you to carry out tenon operation on a very long piece of timber, say 10ft+ long. here is a photo of it when folded away. you still need some room to "house" the table and extensions.

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The transition between tenon mode and profile mode is very fast. here is a 8 minute Youtube clip of me going through the function of the spindle moulder, I have seen Martin's spindle moulder video, they look similar in operation in terms of changing between different modes.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00aPTETMYQ" target="_blank">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00aPTETMYQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00aPTETMYQ)

[Albert Lee]

Albert, your shop is looking good! The L’Invincible line is available here but not well represented by SCM for info on them. I remember touring the SCM booth at the Milan show and they had the whole line up set up and making furniture, doors etc with knowledgeable techs to answer questions. I had some of the early L’Invincible machines back in the 70s and 80s.
question, with the long pull out bar on the front how does the sliding table clear that? I have seen some SCM side mount shapers with a pull out bar that retracted so the side table would clear. Maybe I am just missing this in your picture. That is a good idea if yours is equipped like that. Martin shortens the bar in this case with the idea that you use the sliding table for support in the lower position. At the Italian show they had a shaper equipped with a bead saw. Most mfgs don’t offer that option anymore.
Thanks Joe! online information of the SCM L'Invincibile range is ridiculous. it almost felt like they dont care if you buy it. my SCM agent said to me its like you wouldnt buy a Lamborghini because you found a pamphlet on the internet... people buy it cos people know what they are buying.

now, about the pull out bar, there is a quick release clamp so you can undo it, slide the bar to either left or right. you can slide it to the far right so it clears the tenon table or you can slide it to the left if you need it, and then once in position you lock it in place. I dont like the shortened version of the Martin cos if I have a large panel I need the full length to support the panel - and I recently have been processing large panels and this pull our bar is really handy. its locked at the centre of the table in my video because I dont have the space to slide it right or left lol

You can order the bead unit with SCM spindle moulder. think its only available on the L'Invincible range.
There are many accessories you can have with SCM, even a small front sliding table that fits on the table top.

[Joe Calhoon]

whats a bead saw?
Warren,
It’s a saw that drops in on the shaper or window machine to cut a glass bead out. Saves a little material and time to make the bead for doors and windows. On shapers the saw slides back out of the way when not in use. Here are a couple pictures from the Milan show of them setting it and using it. This has actually been some time ago.
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[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe! online information of the SCM L'Invincibile range is ridiculous. it almost felt like they dont care if you buy it. my SCM agent said to me its like you wouldnt buy a Lamborghini because you found a pamphlet on the internet... people buy it cos people know what they are buying.

now, about the pull out bar, there is a quick release clamp so you can undo it, slide the bar to either left or right. you can slide it to the far right so it clears the tenon table or you can slide it to the left if you need it, and then once in position you lock it in place. I dont like the shortened version of the Martin cos if I have a large panel I need the full length to support the panel - and I recently have been processing large panels and this pull our bar is really handy. its locked at the centre of the table in my video because I dont have the space to slide it right or left lol

You can order the bead unit with SCM spindle moulder. think its only available on the L'Invincible range.
There are many accessories you can have with SCM, even a small front sliding table that fits on the table top.

Albert, at the shows here SCM will put out some of the L’Invincable machines but the sales people usually don’t know much especially on the shapers. The video you did is great, more informative than anything online. I remember now about the bar- slides not folds. That is a good design feature. I like the way the sliding table top folds down. Fence swing out support is similar to Martin. I have used the SCM feed arm but like Martin’s better. SCMs is fine though. Probably could go through these shapers and make lots of comparisons with one better than the other in certain areas. Both top machines though along with Hofmann.

[Bill Dufour]

30mm can be bushed up to take a 40mm cutter not the other way round. My table saw came with a 1+1/8 arbor hard to find blade that size today so I made a new one inch arbor. I can still use the blades that came with it with a spacer.
Bill D.

[Jason McCray]

For God’s sake, stop trying to talk this guy out of buying the machines. I just want to see the photos upon delivery.

25x30 is super lame for those machines to live in. I have a 20” jointer, 20” planer, Oliver 232, and a much smaller Felder than your future t75. I’m tripping machinery and project parts any time I work in my 650-700sqfr space. I would desperately find a means of expanding that footprint.

I just want to know what he plans to do with them. If it's a trophy shop just because he can, nothing wrong with that. If he wants a full kit of Martins plus two big bandsaws he'll probably want a bigger shop. If he can't decide between the panel saw and shaper vs two bandsaws and a tracksaw it rouses my curiosity.

For what it's worth, I have a 720 sq. ft. machine room with a 2.5 m. slider, 16" jointer and planer, 36" bandsaw, medium duty shaper, chopsaw, edge sander, slot mortiser, lathe, spindle sander, plywood rack, wood stove and enough room to maneuver materials and finished work. What it lacks is assembly and finishing space which happens elsewhere. I'm sure Jason can fit his projected machines into the space available. More room would be a plus for sure, if possible.

Here are two of the layouts I've been playing with. The first I've been toying with for the longest. With the slider on the left I can utilize the open door for longer cuts, or move the slider up and out of the way to bring things in through the door. I don't like the planer up against the wall with the jointer right next to it - a long walk around the jointer to get to the planer outfeed. And the shaper isn't utilizing the overhead door for its sliding table.

The second one with the slider to the right is new. I've always liked the idea of the right side of the slider being right up against a wall. The outrigger and slider can move all the way up or down to make room in the center for other work or jointer/planer feeding, with about 10' from the edge of the planer to the edge of the slider. The shaper can be positioned so that the sliding table can be used with larger pieces angled back and out the overhead door. The jointer and planer have 360 degree access and as positioned the jointer can handle nearly 10' boards without opening the overhead door - they could probably move even closer to the door.

Obviously a lot not pictured here but I'm focusing on the big 5 right now, with a wary eye looking towards dust collection.
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[Kevin Jenness]

Have you considered swapping the jointer and planer so that the planer is on the left as you step up to the jointer? You can offload the jointed stock onto a cart or horses to the right of the outfeed table. In your first picture the jointer could be close to the back wall. In the second plan you could move both machines toward the bandsaw and possibly run longer material past the end of the slider while leaving room for long rips on the bandsaw behind the jointer.

You might also think about positioning the machines off the main shop axes for better feed paths. in some cases table heights can be adjusted so one machine feeds over another in a tight space. You may find it helpful to draw material paths associated with various machines on a separate layer.

[Albert Lee]

my space is only 9 m x 6m. yet I managed to squeeze in a lot of machines than what you planned... including a 1100mm wide belt sander

I am sure you will be fine. be mindful where you going to put your dust extractor and I am presuming you will be putting the compressor in another shed? 9m x 7m is ok for machine timber but it wont be enough if you are doing assembly, finishing and the worst of all - stuff you completed and yet to be delivered. I assemble on the driveway (fun when it starts to rain) and have another space for finishing/spray paint. I probably need 4 times the space of what I have now.

[Jason McCray]

my space is only 9 m x 6m. yet I managed to squeeze in a lot of machines than what you planned... including a 1100mm wide belt sander

I am sure you will be fine. be mindful where you going to put your dust extractor and I am presuming you will be putting the compressor in another shed? 9m x 7m is ok for machine timber but it wont be enough if you are doing assembly, finishing and the worst of all - stuff you completed and yet to be delivered. I assemble on the driveway (fun when it starts to rain) and have another space for finishing/spray paint. I probably need 4 times the space of what I have now.

I think at minimum air compressor and dust collector will need to go in a lean to. I actually have a lot of room behind the building to expand. Doubling the space or even more should be possible. I'm going to look in to that before moving forward with any equipment purchases.

What size is your finishing room?

[Patrick Kane]

my space is only 9 m x 6m. yet I managed to squeeze in a lot of machines than what you planned... including a 1100mm wide belt sander

I am sure you will be fine. be mindful where you going to put your dust extractor and I am presuming you will be putting the compressor in another shed? 9m x 7m is ok for machine timber but it wont be enough if you are doing assembly, finishing and the worst of all - stuff you completed and yet to be delivered. I assemble on the driveway (fun when it starts to rain) and have another space for finishing/spray paint. I probably need 4 times the space of what I have now.

Your shop is a great example of what can fit in a space. I also have a fair amount of tools and wood in a smaller space, probably smaller than yours. My earlier point was, the second you start using machines and a project is at that 25-75% point of completion, a tight shop will become uncomfortable to work in. Maybe it is because i work on larger projects, but just a week ago i had a finished 42" by 68" island on sawhorses waiting to be picked up as i was finishing up my new home office desk and monitor stand. It was to the point where i was tip-toeing around project parts and trying not to bump into anything that was finished or fully sanded.

Most times, people layout their shops and the machines fit. Layout your shop and then put a cart next to each machine for project part staging and see how things layout then. Albert appears to be blessed with a mild climate, and his driveway doubles his 'shop' space when necessary. For me, that would mean im getting rained on half the time, or its 30°. Something to keep in mind if the OP is also in a very mild climate. Here in Pennsylvania, the summers are hotter and much more humid than i like to woodwork in, my springs are wet, and so really i would have enjoyable open air workspace in May, September, October, November, and maybe December.

[Albert Lee]

I think at minimum air compressor and dust collector will need to go in a lean to. I actually have a lot of room behind the building to expand. Doubling the space or even more should be possible. I'm going to look in to that before moving forward with any equipment purchases.

What size is your finishing room?

you are fortunate to have those space to expand...

The following list is what I have other than my main machine room.
4m x 3m x2.4m for finishing/spray
4m x 2m x 2m for timber storage
2m x 1m x 2m for compressor.

I am actively looking at building another shed for clamping/handwork. very tired of running around to get the tarps when it start to rain and I have the work pieces on the driveway. ...

[Jason McCray]

I wanted to fit a 5x10 CNC in with everything else but found that to be pushing it. Attached is a new layout with a 4x8 CNC instead (an Avid Pro). I'm block one of the overhead doors with it but that does mean I can keep it up against a "wall" but still access the other side for maintenance. One thing I don't like it the planer/jointer with the planer up against the wall which means walking around the jointer to get to the planer outfeed. I will have to play around with that to see if something else works.

Two places where I can save a bit of space:

1. Removing the side table and sliding table from the shaper. I don't have a large need for either of these - adding them was more for future unknown needs - and removing them certainly makes the shaper more compact. The Martin T12 even more so but unavailable with a tilting spindle. I'm not sure if the space gained her would be worthwhile.

2. In the sketch the Martin T70 is shown with the 1350mm (53") rip capacity. This can go down to 1100mm (43") or 850mm (33"). I don't think I need more than 33" of rip capacity but with it up against the wall (and the support arm raising up) there crosscut wider boards with more than 33" to the right of the blade either. Getting the saw further to the right would also be a big win but again not sure if worth the trade offs.

Any thoughts on either of these?

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[Patrick Kane]

While you might not want to conventionally rip 53”, a narrower setup means you can’t crosscut a sheet of plywood or longer boards. That depends on how you work. If you are rough cutting boards with a radial arm saw or some other crosscut saw, then this won’t be as important to you. Finally, I don’t know how the Martin overhead guard connects to the saw, but my Felder it’s pointless to get a 32-33” rip fence, because the optional overhead guard is a one size fits all at 48-49”. Which means I’m not saving any space with the narrower fence setup. If Martin is setup the same way, then it doesn’t do you much good to have a narrower fence capacity and table.

[Mike Kees]

I used to work in a 24'x30' shop. My machines at that point consisted of a Unisaw, drill press, 16'planer, 14'' bandsaw, router table and a 6'' jointer on casters. With a bench in one corner there was enough room to build projects. I have a real hard time believing that there will be any room to work in that space with the equipment the OP is considering. If it was me, I would be building a significantly larger space first.

[Greg Quenneville]

I agree with Mike. Also, lumber and sheet good storage eats a lot of room. I am selling machines just to get down to the basics in a 24 x 40 shop. I am tired of having to run the obstacle course just to get anything done. If your work involves any kind of spray finishing or painting there is added scope for frustrations.

[Jason McCray]

New layout with just saw, jointer, planer, and bandsaw. The strip along the right side under the windows is a 24" deep reservation for counter space/workbenches.

I like the saw here because the slider and outrigger can be pushed all the way up or down to leave a good sized space for loading and unloading through the 10' door. Or the door can be opened for very long crosscuts. But there is still 8' to the left of the blade with the door closed.

The saw could be replaced, in nearly the same footprint, with a full combination machine, and a 4x8 or even 5x10 CNC could fit nicely where the jointer and planer are. If I'm not going to expand the workshop that's surely the way to go.

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[Erik Loza]

The saw could be replaced, in nearly the same footprint, with a full combination machine, and a 4x8 or even 5x10 CNC could fit nicely where the jointer and planer are. If I'm not going to expand the workshop that's surely the way to go...

Your space is IDEAL for a full combo machine. Only one electrical hookup needed, single dust drop, and no compressed air required.

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Erik

[Jason McCray]

Your space is IDEAL for a full combo machine. Only one electrical hookup needed, single dust drop, and no compressed air required.

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Erik

What are the lead times for a machine like that right now?

[Erik Loza]

What are the lead times for a machine like that right now?

For a full combo like that, probably about 6 months.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Erik...since you have the inkling of going full combo plus the CNC, do it up front. It's going to be more cost effective and you have the space to do it well.

[Jason McCray]

I agree with Erik...since you have the inkling of going full combo plus the CNC, do it up front. It's going to be more cost effective and you have the space to do it well.


I may have to start a new MM CU410 Elite-S vs. Felder CF740SP thread. There is one from 2009. I'm not sure much has changed since then.

New layout with the Minimax and a 5x10 Avid Pro. Still feels like it might be cramped with any CNC capable of full sheets of plywood. This space would probably be perfect with just a 5-in-1 combo and a bandsaw.

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[Albert Lee]

I may have to start a new MM CU410 Elite-S vs. Felder CF740SP thread. There is one from 2009. I'm not sure much has changed since then.

New layout with the Minimax and a 5x10 Avid Pro. Still feels like it might be cramped with any CNC capable of full sheets of plywood. This space would probably be perfect with just a 5-in-1 combo and a bandsaw.

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Last time I went to my SCM they have 4 x CU410 in transit coming from Italy (July this year). I think they are good machines, unfortunately SCM does not do a good job in advertising their machines. Thing about SCM machines, you have to get up real close and put your hand on the machine to appreciate the details, these kind of close encounter experience is something you can not see/feel with pictures/advertising online.

When I first started I really liked CU410 but they were out of my league given the cost. I think they cost more than Felder equivalent at the time. I endup with a Robland. they are good in terms of doing the job, not premium names like Felder/SCM, and cost roughly 1/2 of the SCM/Felder

[Jim Becker]

While I'm certainly and SCM/Minimax fan and own three of their machines, the Felder is a very worthy machine. In the present market, "availability/lead-time" would be a bigger factor that in the past, IMHO, between them if they are equipped/spec'd similarly.

I will say to you that you can shift that CNC to the right and to the back wall a little bit. which will help with your space for assembly, etc.,

[Rod Sheridan]

There are 2 issues with 4 function combination machines

1) limited rip capacity on the saw, maybe as small as 26 inches, not an issue for everyone, or you rip on the sliding table

2) you need operator space on both sides of the machine

The above can make a jointer/planer and a saw/shaper a better solution for some shops.

There’s no doubt however that combination machines can provide high quality, extremely capable machines in a compact, cost effective format….Rod.

[Joe Calhoon]

To work in that space I would have a short stroke slider and be prepared to use a track saw some. Along with a combo jointer planer and stand alone shaper with a smaller footprint. For me a mortiser would be needed also. A full combo is a lot of change over between some operations and the other points Rod mentioned.

[Jason McCray]

To work in that space I would have a short stroke slider and be prepared to use a track saw some. Along with a combo jointer planer and stand alone shaper with a smaller footprint. For me a mortiser would be needed also. A full combo is a lot of change over between some operations and the other points Rod mentioned.

How would you configure a new Martin saw in a shop this size? 1900mm slider and 850mm rip capacity? I can achieve full stroke length with the 3000mm slider along the short wall and I feel like I'd regret not having that and the 1350mm rip capacity even though the latter may not be needed much.

I have stopped considering the T27 shaper as an option. It is too big and will need to wait for a shop expansion. Looked a bit at the Minimax TW 55ES. It is compact, the spindle tilts, and it has a sliding table with outrigger very similar to their saws. Couldn't find any mention of someone using one of these on the forum. Currently leaning more towards the Martin T12 with the front mountable sliding platform - I think you mentioned earlier in this thread this it is a good option for smaller jobs.

[Joe Calhoon]

Yes in a shop that size in order to have room to work I would go with the 1.9m slider and smaller rip capacity and expect to use a track saw for some things. Altendorf also has a nice short stroke slider. I think it is called the WA 60. I looked at one in Europe and a nice small shop machine. Not sure what SCM has in the L’invincable line for short stroke but you might check that out.The T12 is a very capable machine and can be compact without table extensions and pull out support. What you lose from the T27 is mass, no tilt and no possibility of the feeder arm.
you would have to go with the DC 40 feeder on this machine. For a jointer planer Hofmann is the best but not readily available here.

[Jason McCray]

Yes in a shop that size in order to have room to work I would go with the 1.9m slider and smaller rip capacity and expect to use a track saw for some things. Altendorf also has a nice short stroke slider. I think it is called the WA 60. I looked at one in Europe and a nice small shop machine. Not sure what SCM has in the L’invincable line for short stroke but you might check that out.The T12 is a very capable machine and can be compact without table extensions and pull out support. What you lose from the T27 is mass, no tilt and no possibility of the feeder arm.
you would have to go with the DC 40 feeder on this machine. For a jointer planer Hofmann is the best but not readily available here.

It looks like the feeder arm with the Variomatic 4N is still an option on the T12 just not the motorized feeder support. Do you recommend the DC 40 over that on the T12?

[Joe Calhoon]

It looks like the feeder arm with the Variomatic 4N is still an option on the T12 just not the motorized feeder support. Do you recommend the DC 40 over that on the T12?

Sorry I meant to say the Wegoma Variomatic. It is a heavier built feeder than the DC 40 and quite a bit more expensive. The biggest disadvantage of using the DC 40 is it would require pushing 2 buttons to start the feeder. Because the DC 40 is all electronic. You would only be able to get the Smart Stand on the T12. The power arm is only available on the T27.

[Jason McCray]

Sorry I meant to say the Wegoma Variomatic. It is a heavier built feeder than the DC 40 and quite a bit more expensive. The biggest disadvantage of using the DC 40 is it would require pushing 2 buttons to start the feeder. Because the DC 40 is all electronic. You would only be able to get the Smart Stand on the T12. The power arm is only available on the T27.

Do you know how close the T12 can sit to a wall using the Smart Stand vs. the power arm on a T27?

[Jason McCray]

And one other question: the saw can not take the "Pneumatic lowering of rip fence below table level" with the 850mm rip capacity. Without that option can it still be lowered below table level manually or does it need to be fully removed?

[Joe Calhoon]

Do you know how close the T12 can sit to a wall using the Smart Stand vs. the power arm on a T27?

The power arm sticks out behind the shaper about 8 or so inches. The problem is if you are doing curve work or large tenoning the fence has to be removed and it swings to the back of the shaper. You need about 3 feet of space for this at the minimum. A solution to this is to keep a narrow pallet jack on hand and just move the shaper away from the wall the few times you might run into this.

[Joe Calhoon]

And one other question: the saw can not take the "Pneumatic lowering of rip fence below table level" with the 850mm rip capacity. Without that option can it still be lowered below table level manually or does it need to be fully removed?

I don’t know. My 20 year old T72 has the manual spring counterbalanced lowering system. It works fine, don’t know if this option is still available. Maybe someone with a newer saw can chime in. These fences are very heavy and if any electronics will have cords attached.

[Erik Loza]

...There’s no doubt however that combination machines can provide high quality, extremely capable machines in a compact, cost effective format….Rod.

No disagreement there. I've sold probably 200+ full combo machines (mostly Italian, to be honest) in my time in this industry. Here are some observations I have made over the years.

-More customers would probably go full-combo to begin with but initial price point is the biggest obstacle. So, they start with a jointer planer and keep their Sawstop, etc.

-Shaper is the function most American owners use LEAST. In fact, I've had folks ask on multiple occasions if it would be possible to order a full combo without the shaper. Felder actually made such a machine for a period of time.

-I have never gotten a complaint about the rip capacity on a full combo being inadequate. Perhaps because most people who buy such a machine are not focused on cabinetry. Obviously, if you plan to process a lot of sheet goods, you would get a combo with a long slider or perhaps the combo is simply not a good fit in the first place.

-I've never had a customer complain about the switchover time on a full combo. I think this is where this particular conversation is going a little off the rails. Every customer I've ever sold a combo to went into the experience with the understanding that "You're a one-man operation, working in a small space, so there will be tradeoffs". If I was doing specialty doors and windows on the regular, then yeah, absolutely get a separate shaper and probably a serious one. But (in my experience) that is not 99.9% of garage customers. I would say that the vast majority of these owners just want to have a nice, accurate machine to do their fun ww'ing projects on. But of course, everyone's wallet is their own and it's your money, so you should buy what makes you happy.

Erik

[Rod Sheridan]

I also like short stroke sliders for home shops Erik, I chose a J/P and a saw/shaper because that fit better in the shape of my small shop.

I really use the shaper a lot, for me it’s the machine I would keep if I had a choice between a shaper and a saw, in seminars I often talk about the bandsaw, J/P and shaper being the essentials for solid wood furniture, of course we also sell format saws😀 and I provide courses and training on those.

In Canada, 4 function combination machines are very popular in Quebec, possibly the European influence remains strong……Thanks for the conversation…. Rod.

[Warren Lake]

the old europeans I knew that had the SCM Invincibles had separate saws. One a cabient saw and one two cabinet saws with one set up for ripping one set up for cross cutting. The combo machine saw was for working solid wood as most of the machine was as well.

.

[Joe Calhoon]

The OP mentioned early in this thread he had owned A five function combo and wanted stand alone machines in his new shop of a higher quality.

[Warren Lake]

I responded to the small rip width on combos mentioned somewhere above and why they were that way at least when the old guys bought these machines to start their shops.

[Jason McCray]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Martin MitreX double mitre fence when the outrigger has the RadioCompens mitre cut system? Does the MitreX become redundant?

[Jason McCray]

One more: the front of a T45 planer can either take a foldable extension table or an automatic thicknessing table lubrication system. I was going to do the table but now second guessing. Any thoughts? And is the 2nd outfeed rubber roller a good idea?

[Erik Loza]

...And is the 2nd outfeed rubber roller a good idea?

I've never used a Martin planer but have sold plenty of Italian and Austrian ones. For the average shop, I would suggest steel outfeed rollers over rubber. In my experience, rubber is generally only useful if the operator is planning to run lots of wet/green lumber. This option is normally sold in conjunction with adjustable in-bed rollers. Maybe those are already standard with Martin? Not sure. The other issue with rubber outfeed rollers is that like a power feeder, they harden and glaze over time and this happens more quickly in weekend-warrior shops who only use the machine every so often. The steel rollers require no maintenance and should have more than enough grab as long as you keep the planer bed waxed. Hope this helps,

Erik

[Joe Calhoon]

One more: the front of a T45 planer can either take a foldable extension table or an automatic thicknessing table lubrication system. I was going to do the table but now second guessing. Any thoughts? And is the 2nd outfeed rubber roller a good idea?

Jason,
By front to you mean the infeed side? On the front there is the option of the waxlit lube system to keep the bed lubed. There might be a option for a table extension here. If you wanted a extension here you can lube the table easily with a spray bottle of waxlit. On my older T44 I have the folding outfeed table but the longer outfeed table that moves with the bed is nice.

The second rubber outfeed roller in my opinion is a necessity and helpful for running thin and narrow work.
Anyone with planer knowledge knows that steel rollers and bed rollers are for wet green timber and rubber rollers are for the artisan shop that does finer work. On the Martin with rubber rollers you can take off as little as 0.1mm with out leaving marks and snipe will be non existent. Another advantage on the Martin you can feed material on edge without getting out of square. All the previous Italian machines I have owned were not good in this respect. I did set up a Griggio planer in the Bhutan shop with rubber rollers and it was good for edge work. That particular machine had bed rollers though and was not good for snipe. Bed rollers sometimes get chips caught in them and can leave marks and gouges in the finish planned wood. In a artisan shop you do not want bed rollers.

The only disadvantage to rubber rollers is they will wear out eventually. My Martin planer is 18 years old and I replaced the the rollers a couple years ago. They will wear faster if you run a lot of narrow product.

When I get time I will get back in detail about the MiterX

[Jason McCray]

Jason,
By front to you mean the infeed side? On the front there is the option of the waxlit lube system to keep the bed lubed. There might be a option for a table extension here. If you wanted a extension here you can lube the table easily with a spray bottle of waxlit. On my older T44 I have the folding outfeed table but the longer outfeed table that moves with the bed is nice.

The second rubber outfeed roller in my opinion is a necessity and helpful for running thin and narrow work.
Anyone with planer knowledge knows that steel rollers and bed rollers are for wet green timber and rubber rollers are for the artisan shop that does finer work. On the Martin with rubber rollers you can take off as little as 0.1mm with out leaving marks and snipe will be non existent. Another advantage on the Martin you can feed material on edge without getting out of square. All the previous Italian machines I have owned were not good in this respect. I did set up a Griggio planer in the Bhutan shop with rubber rollers and it was good for edge work. That particular machine had bed rollers though and was not good for snipe. Bed rollers sometimes get chips caught in them and can leave marks and gouges in the finish planned wood. In a artisan shop you do not want bed rollers.

The only disadvantage to rubber rollers is they will wear out eventually. My Martin planer is 18 years old and I replaced the the rollers a couple years ago. They will wear faster if you run a lot of narrow product.

When I get time I will get back in detail about the MiterX

I did mean the infeed side: it can take the fixed 1200mm long table, the smaller folding table, or the waxlit tray. I was planning on the folding table on the infeed but was 2nd guessing myself after I noticed the waxlit option. I still think the folding table is the best option for me, with the longer fixed table on the outfeed.

I will get the 2nd rubber roller and 5m to 25m variable feed, and the centralized oil lubrication system has been recommended.

Look forward to hearing thoughts about the MiterX.

[Joe Calhoon]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Martin MitreX double mitre fence when the outrigger has the RadioCompens mitre cut system? Does the MitreX become redundant?

The MiterX double miter is good for small part cutting on the sliding saw. I find it more convenient than the numerous sleds I had for my conventional table saw years ago. The large miter and crosscut table and outrigger is good for accurate large piece cutting and mitering but prefer the MiterX for small work. No experience with the RadioCompens on the large table, my 20 year old saw is all analog on that part but have the digital miter that is accurate to 1/100 degree.


For the MiterX, Martin only offers the crosscut scales in metric and only analog for the angle reading. The angles are divided into quarters on the MiterX but possibly to get closer than that with good eyes. Plenty accurate for narrow work.


I have a Omga but prefer to cut glass beads and small moulding on the MiterX. I feel it is safer than a chop saw. I do a lot of curved work in doors and windows and find it useful for mitering curve moulding to straight. This always involves 2 oddball miters to make one connection. It is real easy to switch back and fourth between the 2 angles once you get correct angles nailed. The length compensation on the crosscut fence is a little confusing to use but I have gotten used to it. When using this I am often sneaking up on the cut or cutting to a mark anyway.
Here are pictures that possibly explain it better.
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