Sawing or shooting

[James Pallas]

When do you saw and when do you shoot. For the most part I only shoot for a finished end. I do not shoot for most dovetails or tenons because the shoulder to shoulder length is priority not end to end. I would shoot butt joints or length for mitered ends or tops of exposed legs and the like. What do you shoot?
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

When do you saw and when do you shoot.

Saw when something is too long or wide. :D

Pieces for dovetailing are almost always shot to get them to the exact same length. This helps to insure square corners.

Whenever pieces of the exact same length are desired the shooting board is on the bench.

When a pyramid is desired on a piece, the shooting board facilitates making it.

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A low angle wedge can be used to make a pleasing detail on an exposed end.

jtk

[mike stenson]

Yea, if I've ****ed my initial cut, and ended up having to back the saw back to the line. In that case, since it'll generally be either a convex or concave cut, I'll typically shoot it square.
I'll also do it to sneak up on length, such as fitting sliding tills. Or to ensure all pieces are the same length, since you can take off in minute amounts. Then again, I splurged a while back and bought a dedicated shooting plane. With that, shooting 90s is so easy.. it's kind of fun.

edit: Wow, I swear I didn't type anything offensive. It's amazing what gets auto-edited.

[Tom Trees]

Can you get a perfect shoulder line around a piece, using a square, and knife or pencil, every single time you need it?
Example a tenon, with a shoulder on both face and edge.
I haven't been able to do it consistently so far, and am somewhere in the middle of methodology in this regard.
I jest the reason as having a shoulder plane and fitting every tenon on large work,
and then seeing a gap appearing after time, there was no gap there before....hrmmm

I was all up on the idea of forgetting marking with knives and getting a nice retractable pencil + shoulder plane, now I'm questioning if
I was better off using a different method, and marking together, which I was doing any way.
Nice to have another line underneath the marked line, should you overshoot them.

Having an engineers square (all steel construction) is what I use, It's accurate, I mark out very carefully with one light stroke,
Might not be the best knives, but hefty single bevel ones left and right,
not deepening the slot and throwing the line off.
The work is very flat and all that, yet I still get an error 50% of the time.
You need everything perfect if doing something with say four legs, or whatever consistent line you need.

For small work, I know who's methodology I'll be using, if applicable.
Rob Cosman's consistency is second to none, never mind the saw cuts, I'm talking about the bass lines.

He shoots the ends, and then using the wheel marking gauge to mark out the basslines,
Much more consistent looking it seems to me.

[Luke Dupont]

I tend to shoot only when the exposed endgrain will be the lone "end" of a piece. This is a bit hard to explain, so, let's use a dovetailed box as an example:

Take the sides for example. You can, if you like to do it like me, avoid the need for both sawing and shooting by leaving about a millimeter of extra material on each piece sticking out past the dovetails. Then, just come back with a chisel and a plane to achieve perfect flatness after the dovetails are all glued up. To mark out the joinery accurately in this case, you must use a square and a knife to mark the depth of the dovetails (and cutting tails first may be a good idea as well), as the endgrain face should be considered inaccurate and not to proper length, which will give you the wrong depth and possibly an out of square line if you just run a cutting gauge down it to mark the depth of the tails.

I find trimming things up square like this after assembly to be easier than shooting a single piece square, because you have a huge reference surface to guide your chisel / plane.

[Luke Dupont]

Can you get a perfect shoulder line around a piece, using a square, and knife or pencil, every single time you need it?
Example a tenon, with a shoulder on both face and edge.
I haven't been able to do it consistently so far, and am somewhere in the middle of methodology in this regard.
I jest the reason as having a shoulder plane and fitting every tenon on large work,
and then seeing a gap appearing after time, there was no gap there before....hrmmm

I was all up on the idea of forgetting marking with knives and getting a nice retractable pencil + shoulder plane, now I'm questioning if
I was better off using a different method, and marking together, which I was doing any way.
Nice to have another line underneath the marked line, should you overshoot them.

Having an engineers square (all steel construction) is what I use, It's accurate, I mark out very carefully with one light stroke,
Might not be the best knives, but hefty single bevel ones left and right,
not deepening the slot and throwing the line off.
The work is very flat and all that, yet I still get an error 50% of the time.
You need everything perfect if doing something with say four legs, or whatever consistent line you need.

For small work, I know who's methodology I'll be using, if applicable.
Rob Cosman's consistency is second to none, never mind the saw cuts, I'm talking about the bass lines.

He shoots the ends, and then using the wheel marking gauge to mark out the basslines,
Much more consistent looking it seems to me.

I can using a square and a knife. Not a pencil.

If you're having problems, it's probably because your stock is not square. You need to check that there are no twists, and that your edges and faces are square, and also that the width (parallel lines formed by the edges) are square to one another.
You should also be conscious of where things might be out of square and how you are registering your try square. For example, if your edges may be slightly out of parallel, you had better only register lines across the face of the board from a single edge on both sides: don't register from two different edges on two different sides.

You also need to consider how you are holding your knife, especially if it is a double bevel knife. You need to make sure that one face of the bevel is square to your square, or else your marks can be off by as much as half the thickness of the blade depending on the angle at which you hold it to the square. That could translate to more than a millimeter, depending on how thick your knife is.

Lastly, it's very helpful to deepen the knife wall and cut a V-notch into the waste side. This helps you not move your knife wall and register your tools more easily.
Note that if you put a chisel down into a shallow knife wall and hit it, it will compress into the shoulder and move the knifewall backwards, because there's not enough material there to keep the chisel in place. Get down 1-2 mm and tap lightly at first before chopping or pairing down.

All this said, the tiniest gaps can still be present even if you're really good. For this, there's specialized joinery, for example, where the shoulders of a tenon are set into a table leg just 1/4" or so to hide any gaps.

I have far more confidence in my square, knife, and gauges than any other tool.
Second to that would be the plane, and after that the chisel. The saw is way down on my list of tools when it comes to the accuracy I can achieve with it, so I tend to saw away from lines and chisel or plane down to them.

[Tom Trees]

I still haven't found a knife I'm happy with, I may try a slimmer single bevel knife for the job,
as I think the biggest error might be the bevel influencing on the corners when marking around.

This was all tight as you can make it, not so now, probably should have went with wedged tenon construction.
Probably could slip a sheet of paper on one corner of the leg the last time I looked, could be the bad floor and a heavy top with stacks of timber on top,
Might not be the case now as my workshop environment isn't stable.
I'm putting that down to the shoulder plane, shaving down to those marked lines, as I keep away from the line whilst sawing,
and never drop into the knifewall when chiselling, as the timber is too dense for that.

I couldn't find a photo of all components getting marked up, but as said, I'll be using the ends for reference as much as I can in future, not that I don't do that already,
but actually marking off the edge, rather than lining all shoulders up to a stop and using the square for marking multiples.
This might explain things a bit more.
Not saying I won't be using the shoulders for reference as that's just common sense, just going to do some experiments with my panel gauge in future.
It's only a hole drilled in it with an old pencil. so I must make another to have a cutting gauge, and maybe a hole for a nice metal retractable pencil, (if I can find any)
the other end.
All my timber is laminated salvaged tropicals, and I'm just not in the habit of chopping the ends to do it, for dents and the likes.469589


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[Tom Trees]

What sorta knife, or knives do you use Luke?

Tom

[Luke Dupont]

I still haven't found a knife I'm happy with, I may try a slimmer single bevel knife for the job,
as I think the biggest error might be the bevel influencing on the corners when marking around.

This was all tight as you can make it, not so now, probably should have went with wedged tenon construction.
Probably could slip a sheet of paper on one corner of the leg the last time I looked, could be the bad floor and a heavy top with stacks of timber on top,
Might not be the case now as my workshop environment isn't stable.
I'm putting that down to the shoulder plane, shaving down to those marked lines, as I keep away from the line whilst sawing,
and never drop into the knifewall when chiselling, as the timber is too dense for that.

I couldn't find a photo of all components getting marked up, but as said, I'll be using the ends for reference as much as I can in future, not that I don't do that already,
but actually marking off the edge, rather than lining all shoulders up to a stop and using the square for marking multiples.
This might explain things a bit more.
Not saying I won't be using the shoulders for reference as that's just common sense, just going to do some experiments with my panel gauge in future.
It's only a hole drilled in it with an old pencil. so I must make another to have a cutting gauge, and maybe a hole for a nice metal retractable pencil, (if I can find any)
the other end.
All my timber is laminated salvaged tropicals, and I'm just not in the habit of chopping the ends to do it, for dents and the likes.469589


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Not sure I'm understanding you well, but you used a shoulder plane on the end grain to get down to the knife wall on the tenon walls?
Are the walls straight across, or is there a tiny curvature to them in any direction? Often times, if you use the wrong tool, such as a saw, or file / rasp, or even a plane sometimes (on a narrow piece), the tendency is to rock like a see-saw and leave a high spot in the middle. This will create gaps, especially on the walls of a tenon or something.

I would use a chisel almost exclusively on such tenons, though a plane (especially a bull nose plane) on the long grain would be helpful to keep the faces of such a long tenon flat. I would not plane across the grain, or across the endgrain though personally, because of the rocking problem.

I would recommend, after establishing some depth, going directly into the knife wall with a wide chisel when cross cutting those tenon shoulders. Pare down or use a hammer. The chisel is among your most accurate tools.

I use a very simple single bevel Japanese style marking knife... not a good one, but a cheap one that Japanese tool aficionados likely would not endorse. The one I use is not a proper thick laminated construction, but is a cheap single piece of steel and rather thin. A thin blade is nice, but it should be rigid and not flex. Too thin a blade which flexes causes all kinds of issues. In the past, I used a double bevel marking knife like paul seller's. I've made do with all kinds of knives for marking. I don't think the knife is a big part of your problem -- probably something else, but it never hurts to try something different. You know your tools and challenges better than I do, so I may be mistaken!

[steven c newman]

Happen to a very nice Stanley No. 358 mitre box/saw....nice stiff blade. cuts are ready to use right off the saw....either 90 degree cross cuts, or miters...haven't use a shooting board in years...only time I might get a wobbly cut, is IF I have to rely on the bandsaw....because it is just plain lousy at cross cuts....leaves more waves than the North Sea...the next cut would be back on the mitre box, to correct the problem cut.

YMMV

[Scott Winners]

I don't shoot if I can get to good enough some other way.

This is one reason I always try to be encouraging when Rob Lee posts about the saw set prototype in his desk that (last I knew) hadn't gone into production yet. I have 16 user saws rght now with no duplicates, but two of them are set head and shoulders above the other 14. A well set saw otherwise appropriate to the cut can leave a good enough edge in a lot of situations, but having even one tooth poorly set can wreck a sawn face. The inexpensive saws at the home store today, the ones with the induction hardened teeth, my limited experience, very poorly set. I don't know if it is the hardening process that affects correctly set teeth unevenly, or if they go into the hardening machine with poorly set teeth in the first place. If you are using home store saws for furniture, you will have to get good at shooting. Alternatively, I only own one of the Lee Valley carcass saws but I love that little rascal; no idea if mine is run of the mill or if I got lucky with a factory freak, mine is a great little saw.

Like Luke, if it isn't going to show, I don't shoot it.

I have a chair side table coming through now, might use it as a night stand. I have planed just about every surface on it, but I will end up shooting is the exposed endgrains on the top after I get an undercut bevel on them. The Auriou is more than adeqaute for the soles of the feet, the LV carcass more than adequate for the not exposed joinery.

I do think knife lines matter. I have finally gotten in the habit of making two light passes and then two firmer passes with a single bevel knife before moving the square off the mark. I have at least four marking knives now, the ones I use are both single bevel. My double bevel marking knives I don't use anymore. As a relative n00b a single bevel knife is a fixed thing that I can use for good results. When I sharpen a double bevel marking knife I have to relearn how to hold it; you are probably smarter than me and more power to you if you disagree.

Any road, with four passes with the knife I can get some scrap out from the waste side with a chisel before I try to deepen the knife mark with a chisel and those are my best class A cuts.

I am also ecstatic with my fairly new Auriou rasps. I got both a left and right hand, 9" length, at "10 grain" tooth size from Lee Valley several weeks ago. In soft wood these rasps leave a perfectly fine finish, ready for sanding or a card scraper if you are into that, with not very much effort. I do have a couple hardwood projects moving through my shop now and might end up getting something with a finer grain for hardwoods, but for general shop use I find the grain 10 size to be quite speedy next to my c. 1974 Nicholson "Four in Hand" and the Auriou leaves a finer surface. The Auriou is just a better tool.

I can get about 80-95% of my rasping done with my dominant right hand, but on inside curves there are places where I need to use the rasp left handed the the LF Auriou in that situation is the better tool for the job. When I use a RH Auriou with my left hand the finish is not as good as it would have been if I had used my LH Auriou. They are money, but if I want something finer for hardwood I will get a second R/L pair.

For dovetails, I don't historically shoot until the four sides are glued up, and leave my stock more or less 1/16" long at each end. Gluing up panels for a galoot style saw till now, in American Beech, the other hardwood project in process here and now. I am inclined to use a rabbet plane to mark the baselines for the dovetails on the inside of the finished casework this time around, which has me thinking about my process again. The panels are going to be about 11" wide, but I honestly feel good about sawing that good enough to guide the fence of the rabbet plane.

Sort of like the old joke, "Do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?" "Yes I do, to get to Carnegie Hall you need to practice, practice, practice."

[Jim Koepke]

the endgrain face should be considered inaccurate and not to proper length, which will give you the wrong depth and possibly an out of square line if you just run a cutting gauge down it to mark the depth of the tails.

Luke, this is exactly why my pieces are put on the shooting board for cutting dovetails. Each side is matched to its opposite in length and is perfectly square. If the pins and/or tails are to be cut proud, they can be cut equally proud.

With shooting all the pieces to not only bring them square but to match sizes the gauge can be registered on the end without worries.

jtk

[James Pallas]

This is one of those cat skinning things. I just try to think of what is most important and let that govern. So it’s face, face edge, shoulder for me. I try to from a story stick (pole), direct from the piece or a center line. That being said for a tenon i.e. I mark from my story stick for the shoulder then use a square from the face edge. The work is rough length so if you have to trim the tenon end a bit or its a bit short (you want that anyway) all is good. I use a single bevel (ground the blades myself) mill knife for marking. I have a right and a left hand. I have a shooting board and use it but don’t like an extra step or using 2 references for marking. What works for you is just as good.
Jim

[mike stenson]

Exactly true that if it works for you it's good. I find other people's methods of work interesting. It's why I find people's benches, chests, and cabinets interesting. It says a lot about how they work. Sometimes, or often times, you see things you wouldn't have thought of. Even if you don't ever incorporate it, it opens other methods of work. This was one of my favorite things in university, watching other people's methods.

[James Pallas]

What sorta knife, or knives do you use Luke?

Tom

I very much like using these mill knives. I ground the blades to single bevel a right and a left. They are hefty enough to cut deep if you wish. You need to be sure that you have the bevel towards the waste.
Jim

[Mike Allen1010]

It's a real timesaver/skill builder to be able to get a square, plum crosscut right off the saw, without the need for shooting. For example, if you're crosscutting rails that will be joined via M&T's into stiles to make a frame, it doesn't really matter if ends of those tenons are perfectly square, they're going in the bottom of the mortise anyway. However, if the crosscut, end grain surfaces will be used as a reference edge for laying out joinery; like using a marking gauge to layout the baseline for dovetails in a drawer or carcass, shooting it perfectly square is worth the time.

Just my thoughts, YMMV:).

Cheers, Mike

[Luke Dupont]

Luke, this is exactly why my pieces are put on the shooting board for cutting dovetails. Each side is matched to its opposite in length and is perfectly square. If the pins and/or tails are to be cut proud, they can be cut equally proud.

With shooting all the pieces to not only bring them square but to match sizes the gauge can be registered on the end without worries.

jtk


Good point!

I guess I need to improve my shooting board / skills, because, I admit, one of the reasons I avoid shooting is that I can never quite get things square to my liking. I can come close, but I'm often half a millimeter out of square along the width and length, and no matter how I adjust the plane, I tend to keep struggling with this.

I've since just gotten really good at avoiding the need to shoot as much as possible, often by just being really really careful with my cross cuts and planing the endgrain flat and square free hand without a jig if necessary.
But, maybe I should take some time to practice shooting more. I think I'll make another shooting board that lifts the piece, assuming a 3/4" board, so it's directly in the center of the plane iron's width. And I'll have the "runway" for the plane longer than the raised "bench hook" part. Maybe that will get me better results.

A lot of the time I tried shooting on a bench hook, which I always make dead square for this purpose, but I've never once gotten satisfactory results from that approach.

Or, I don't know, maybe I'm actually trying to achieve an unncecessary level of accuracy? *shrug*

[Jim Koepke]

Good point!
[a whole lot of editing]
I guess I need to improve my shooting board / skills, because, I admit, one of the reasons I avoid shooting is that I can never quite get things square to my liking. I can come close, but I'm often half a millimeter out of square along the width and length, and no matter how I adjust the plane, I tend to keep struggling with this.
…
I think I'll make another shooting board that lifts the piece, assuming a 3/4" board, so it's directly in the center of the plane iron's width. And I'll have the "runway" for the plane longer than the raised "bench hook" part. Maybe that will get me better results.
…
A lot of the time I tried shooting on a bench hook, which I always make dead square for this purpose, but I've never once gotten satisfactory results from that approach.


When you see pictures of my shooting board there is often pieces of blue tape to correct any errors caused by wood movement.

The height of the platform isn't as important than the straightness of the blade. A heavy camber might be good for some jobs but not on a shooting board.

A bench hook can be used for shooting but if it moves at all the plane is on a non-connected surface.

A procedure that works for me is to draw the plane back only far enough that the toe is still in contact with the workpiece. The workpiece is pressed against the fence and the plane's toe while the plane is pressed against the platform. Getting that all working together is what produces repeatable results. If the angles are always off the same amount it is easy to correct by adjusting the plane or strategically placing a piece of tape or a shaving of wood.

Another tip, when shooting two ends of a piece, always keep the same edge to the fence when flipping the work.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I wrote a longer post about this but it was lost in hyper space. All of this layout was done from the face and face edge of the leg on the left with the face down on the bench and the edge out. No marking gauges were used or thrown at the wall for this layout. I do use marking gauges but not the way some do. Squares only for this work.
Jim