CTD, Kapex, RAS or other?

[Mark Gibney]

What are your thoughts on a miter saw for a shop?
- a good regular miter saw such as a Kapex (I tried a Bosch 12" non-slider a few years back and couldn't get it to work well enough to keep, so this time I might avoid that brand)

- a CTD cut-off saw (used!! so I can afford it). My only concern here is most of them don't have that much cut width, but then again when I get to the point of trimming pieces to final length that might be fine.

- a radial arm saw. A friend suggested this to me, but I'm wary of this sort of saw having accuracy issues similar to the regular chop saws.

This topic has indeed been covered in the past, and on other forums as well, but I haven't found clarity in what I've read so far.

thanks, Mark

[Phillip Mitchell]

I would add Omga to the list if you’re considering CTD.

I think you will hear a lot of mixed feedback concerning the Kapex, but I have never used one very much personally.

[Brian Holcombe]

Regular miter saw is fine for rough cutting to length, wouldn’t trust it beyond that. Omga or similar for precision work through either small or large parts.

[Kevin Jenness]

What Brian said.

[Andrew Hughes]

I have the Bosch glide with a 12 inch blade. I thought is was great for cutting crown molding and trim work.
Its not something I rely on for squaring up thick boards. With a Forrest chop master I’ve done well cutting miters in solid woods like 1 inch hickory.

[Bernie Kopfer]

I have a Kapex and it is a good saw. Particularly I like the material hold down and compactness. IMO the idea that a miter saw cannot be used for accurate final cuts is nonsense. With a good blade, hold downs, and solid stops it makes great cuts and beats firing up and setting up the TS every time I want to cut a board. If cutting to a gnat’s eyelash accuracy is what you are seeking perhaps the other saws mentioned are worth the $. The Kapex was a gift but if I had to do it again the 10 Bosch Glide would be my choice at half the price. O

[roger wiegand]

Unlike many others here I've happily used a Hitachi SCMS for final crosscutting and miters for over 20 years now. I get better results than using a sled on the table saw, I think because moving the relatively light saw head is much easier and more controllable than horsing around a long workpiece and sled. A slider would probably change this calculation, but I don't have one and don't have room for one.

Like everything else in woodworking I think technique has a lot to do with it, as well as starting with a good tool, a sharp blade of the right sort, and maintenance. I have a pretty serious saw station with a Biesemeyer fence and stop set up that completely supports the work and allows for work reproducible to my ability to measure it. I use a light hand on the saw and, obviously, don't toss it around in the back of a truck.

Crosscuts and 45's are straight and square, there is never any light showing when I put a good square on them and hold them up to a bright light. With the Forrest chop blade the ends are as smooth as anything I can accomplish on my table saw.

I honestly don't know what I'm missing, or what more I could ask. The dogmatic "only good for rough cuts" responses that invariably appear in these threads are simply inconsistent with my observed reality.

[Bradley Gray]

I have an older delta turret saw, 14". I keep it @90 degrees and use pitch blocks to cut angles. Super accurate, smooth cuts and can be had for low low prices. Mine cost $300 with a $300. blade.

[Bryan Hall]

I'm a finish carpenter, and love my dewalt 716xps. In the shop though, I don't even have it set up. I just use a mafell crosscut saw.

[Brian Holcombe]

I honestly don't know what I'm missing, or what more I could ask. The dogmatic "only good for rough cuts" responses that invariably appear in these threads are simply inconsistent with my observed reality.

Well, it is consistent with my observed reality, and my experience.

[Warren Lake]

old guy had no faith in radials for fine work. Same time told me he knew one trained guy who did all his work on one. Its a wood table and thats not an ideal start. Id bet most of the better ones could do decent work the old solid ones.

I see it as an old radial to cross cut rough material. No interest in doing that on some compound mitre thing and putting extra heavier wear and tare on it. I had a crap radial for years that would time out and go for a siesta cross cutting solid so I stuck it in the back yard and went to a worm drive. Then got an Old wadkin Radial, its purpose will mostly be cross cutting. Id like to convert one to do haunching maybe as well one of the big old solid ones.

[Michael Drew]

I've been using a 12" Dewalt for years. It's one of the originals with two vertical support rods. It cuts just fine. Clunky - yes. I just know its limitations.

For what it's worth, I just bought a new one on Amazon this morning. Black Friday deal for $399, or roughly $200 off. I'll use my 'old' one for mobile construction work, and keep this 'new' one in my shop.

For critical cutting, I'll use my table saw.

[Michael Schuch]

My 1947 16" Redstar radial arm saw is the most used saw in my shop. The Redstar usually has a Freud Ultimate Cut Off blade mounted on it but I also have a coarser blade for rough lumber, pvc pipe, etc. I also use a Dewalt compound miter saw (no slide) which is great for quick angled cuts. The Redstar cuts a perfect 90, does very accurate angles then returns to a perfect 90 but is somewhat cumbersome for a quick miter which is where the Dewalt is nice.

A quality RAS will keep its angles very well and a RAS has a much wider range of use than a miter saw. I appreciate having both!

I am in the process of fixing up a sliding table saw to add to my shop but there will always be long boards which will be much easier on a saw with a moving blade instead of moving the stock through a fixed blade.

I had a Bosch sliding miter saw and sold it. It did not keep as good of an angle as my RAS or Dewalt miter saw and took up considerable space behind the saw. All the sliding miter saws I have used have had a fair amount of flex in them. To me sliding miter saws are a compromise and no where as ridged as a good RAS or even a non-sliding miter.

[Dave Sabo]

Well, it is consistent with my observed reality, and my experience.

Perhaps you’ve just chosen the wrong saw , or blades , or just don’t have the right training.

Or, more likely - your reality is just different from roger’s and others. Doesn’t make your way correct/incorrect or better or worse than someone else’s. Plenty of people can make accurate and repeatable miters on a decent jobsite miter saw. Plenty of people make firewood on them too.

I’m with roger shaking my head on the disdain guys have for mitersaws around here. I’m also not naive enough to think people won’t use or do what works best for them. Or that what the herd thinks is best - is gonna be best for me.

[Brian Holcombe]

Frankly, what it comes down to is acceptable tolerance. I used a Kapex with a Tenryu miter pro plus prior to the Omga. That saw would come slightly out of square about every few weeks of daily use. The Omga and the smaller aluminum Omga prior to it stay and stayed square permanently.

A big part of my work is making kumiko and when gang cutting kumiko this is a critical factor especially so when they are grouped tightly in a frame. I had kumiko with 3/4” spacing earlier this year, 25 pieces per panel. There isn’t any solution to gapping parts here, they stick out like a sore thumb, so the work needs to be exceptionally tight.

So, I could readjust the saw every few weeks or each time I have highly accurate work to do, or I can do what I did which is to buy one I can count on for the work I do.

The OP asked for one’s experiences, which I shared and you are welcome to share. However, I am taking exception to my experience being referred to as ‘dogma’.

[mreza Salav]

I too am of the mind set that miter saws (including Kapex) are good for finish carpentry but I don't use them for furniture making. They simply don't have the accuracy *I* demand. I have used a Kapex side by side my Milwaukee and didn't find Kapex any more accurate. Again, if you are doing trims nothing beats them and all top brands I think are equally good.

[John TenEyck]

My experience is pretty consistent with Michael's. My Dewalt RAS cuts perfect 90/90 deg cuts, angled cuts, too, but it's not as convenient because of the fence system I have as using the CMS. For cuts less than 12" I look to the RAS first. For wide cuts a sled on my TS is the only choice for me. And, like some others, I get very accurate and tight fitting joints on my Bosch 12" non sliding CMS. It cut poorly out of the box, despite the glowing reviews, but after going through the manual to adjust everything it has been nearly flawless. I found that a 60 tooth blade (which is what came on it and worked very well until I did something stupid) actually gives truer, tighter fitting joints than a 96 tooth blade when cutting 1" hardwoods. The saw just doesn't have enough power to pull that number of teeth through the cut w/o the rpm falling off enough that the blade wobbles just a little bit. With a 60 tooth blade I get straight, tight fitting joints. I use a Makita negative rake blade on it now and it's great. I've made compound angle cuts with it for segmented bowls and, much to my surprise the first time I tried it, the joints are amazing.

For the cost of a used RAS it's an easy choice if you have the room and don't need portability. A couple of hundred $'s and you get a highly accurate and versatile saw that will do its job for decades to come just as it has done for decades already. If you want a trim saw the Dewalt MBF is superb. A great all-around saw is the slightly larger GWI, which is what I have. And the larger, more powerful RA can do just about anything well.

John

[Myk Rian]

After restoring my DeWalt RAS, it's the most accurate saw I have. You have to make sure the ways are in good condition.

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[Randall J Cox]

I have used a DeWalt 12 single bevel chop saw for years, dead accurate. Also have a fully rebuilt old Delta 30-C turret radial arm saw, also dead accurate, at least at 90 degrees, which is where I keep it. I have taken pains to set them up to be accurate (with a dial indicator), and it pays off for me. Randy

[Greg Quenneville]

I have a Kapex and find it mostly fine for building my period house. Like Brian says, it does go out of square due to the fence design, and I do have to run test cuts prior to trying for 90.0°. Usually its fine, but sometimes I have to make very fine adjustments. I now have a slider and aim to use it for the balance of fine mitre work.

[Michael Schuch]

I believe one of the key factors for being accurate and productive on a radial arm saw is being comfortable with the saw and knowledgeable of how to operate it properly and safely. I made my first cut on my fathers 10" Delta turret arm radial arm saw when I was about 10yo, under my fathers close supervision. I did very little ripping on his RAS but it was the only power saw we had so I assisted him with many rip cuts throughout my childhood.

A couple of weeks ago I bought a near perfect shape 14" long arm Delta turret arm radial arm saw for $100 from a shop that makes the rough sawn wooden covers for ceiling beams. The owner confessed that he turned it on once, it scared the heck out of him and it sat in the corner for the next 25 years. The first time I powered on my 16" Redstar turret arm radial arm saw it had a screamer of a blade on it and it scared the heck out of me while I very sheepishly made my first cut. Because I had prior experience on a RAS I was able to get comfortable with it quite quickly. Now when I help my mother out with projects around her house my fathers 10" RAS is a little discomforting. My 16" 7.5hp Redstar beast has so much mass in the carriage and motor that it never tries to lurch forwards or self feed. On my fathers nicely build 10" RAS making a cut is as much about controlling the motor carriage as it is about pulling it.

I was fortunate to have my father guide my through learning the proper use of a RAS. I am not sure how one gains experience on a RAS with out a bit of mentoring on one. I believe this lack of familiarity and knowledge is why many people shy away from radial arm saws and pronounce them too dangerous to use... Which, if you aren't trained on proper use, they probably actually are to dangerous to use.

[Kevin Jenness]

On my fathers nicely build 10" RAS making a cut is as much about controlling the motor carriage as it is about pulling it.

That could have something to do with the blade. Have you tried a negative rake?

A solidly built radial arm saw is a good versatile machine. You can still get a Unipoint from Northfield although I imagine the cost is up there. I believe Omga makes one as well.

Every so often an old Craftsman will show up on Craigslist as a "radio alarm saw".

On the subject of miter saws, the op asked about CTD which led me to believe he was looking for something outside the norm. I've used a lot of non-sliding and compound sliding miter saws- DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, Hitachi, Delta. None of them holds a candle to the two T50-350 Omgas I found for my old employer. I have an Hitachi C8FB which is a solid small scms with a Tenryu blade, and it is great for trim and cutoff work but when I want really accurate miters off the saw I use my sliding table saw. The Omga saws do an equivalent job with less setup and are easier with long pieces.

Maybe I haven't had the right saw or blade or my training was deficient, but I have been around the barn a few times and this is my experience. A more affordable miter saw like mine coupled with a shooting board to hunt down the renegade mils is an option.

Bernie Kopfer wrote If cutting to a gnat’s eyelash accuracy is what you are seeking perhaps the other saws mentioned are worth the $. I believe he is correct.

[scott lipscomb]

The one kind of saw that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is a non-sliding miter saw, which I think of as a chop saw, from the major manufacturers. I have had a Dewalt for about 8 years thats been really abused and it is still as accurate as I care to measure-I don't see gaps in picture frames...While I have never owned a scms, the slide mechanism really seems to introduce a lot of error into the system.

I am following this thread closely, because I have a sliding table saw that I really like, but I only ever use it for crosscutting, and it takes a ton of space my 1000sf shop. I am thinking about moving it along, if I can find a very good cross cutting solution that would occupy a narrow space against a wall. I don't build very many cabinets, though I have a couple of cabinet projects coming up.

The Omgas sure look nice, but it seems like the chop saws at 1/10th the price could be dialed in, especially of they aren't asked to move around. I'd buy a used Omga in a heart beat, if one showed up at decent price, but they sure don't pop up around here.

[Warren Lake]

as far as working a radial and creep issues and the right blade or a blade that will more self feed the bigger issue is operator error.

You keep your arm straight, if they did the motor cannot self feed. Bent elbow that every one uses is the biggest problem and everyone does.

had two Omgas show up in excellent condition for 250.00 canadian each. should have scooped one but waited for an older saw.

[Patrick Kane]

Mark, do you envision yourself cutting miters often, or is this more cutting to final length? If it’s the latter, I will offer a different opinion than the others above me. Get a sliding table saw. If you are cutting angles often then get a sliding table saw with an altendorf duplex/Felder EGL etc. I had a kapex years ago, and wasn’t impressed. I think that would be a fine saw for painted trim on-site, but in a furniture shop it leaves a lot to be desired. A slider will give you infinitely better results than a kapex, but they don’t travel as nicely. As for a radial arm saw or cut off saw they aren’t as versatile as a sliding table saw. I’d love to have a big old radial arm saw for rough cutting lumber, but it would be a one trick pony for me.

[Keegan Shields]

The first question should be “what level of accuracy do you need for the work you do?” My Kapex works great for most levels of accuracy I need. When I need a dead accurate 90 deg, I use a shooting board. But I make furniture mostly, not Kumiko.

I did switch from a Bosch Glide 12” to a Kapex. I had issues with the Bosch flexing out of square which I think is due to the handle being off to one side of the blade. The Kapex handle isn’t as comfortable at the start of the cut, but the handle is centered which I thinks keeps the force in line with the blade.

[Mark Gibney]

Lots of well supported opinions here.
In answer to Patrick above - I would use the tool to cut to final length, so I think I'll keep my eye out for a well priced used cut-off saw such as an Omga or CTD.
A sliding table saw is just not an option due to space constraints.

Today in the shop I used my miter trimmer to fit rails to a face frame. Works great!
I got it earlier this year to dial in cockbeading and I just flat forget I have it. Thankfully I happened to see it today and dragged it out.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, that sounds like a good decision for the reasons you state. And yea, those miter trimmers are awesome tools when you have one to use, especially for detail work.

[John TenEyck]

Mark, do you envision yourself cutting miters often, or is this more cutting to final length? If it’s the latter, I will offer a different opinion than the others above me. Get a sliding table saw. If you are cutting angles often then get a sliding table saw with an altendorf duplex/Felder EGL etc. I had a kapex years ago, and wasn’t impressed. I think that would be a fine saw for painted trim on-site, but in a furniture shop it leaves a lot to be desired. A slider will give you infinitely better results than a kapex, but they don’t travel as nicely. As for a radial arm saw or cut off saw they aren’t as versatile as a sliding table saw. I’d love to have a big old radial arm saw for rough cutting lumber, but it would be a one trick pony for me.

That's the $10K solution to a pretty simple problem. I'm not criticizing, far from it, I'd love to have a slider. It would solve all kinds of issues on capabilities and efficiency, but it's a pretty unrealistic option for many of us, both $ and space wise. The good news is a shooting board can be made for a few dollars and in the right hands will produce joints as perfect as can be made by any means.

John

[Patrick Kane]

That's the $10K solution to a pretty simple problem. I'm not criticizing, far from it, I'd love to have a slider. It would solve all kinds of issues on capabilities and efficiency, but it's a pretty unrealistic option for many of us, both $ and space wise. The good news is a shooting board can be made for a few dollars and in the right hands will produce joints as perfect as can be made by any means.

John

OMGA's are not cheap. Kapex's are not cheap. Given a similar budget, one can do ok for themselves on the used market. Here is an example--well, two examples--i recently purchased a 1970s Martin T75 for $750 that would more than likely be a better table saw than Mark currently has, and would be a better crosscut chop saw than Mark is going to buy. That is example #1. Example #2 is years ago i sold a festool MFT, Kapex, and Jessem router table with every imaginable accessory and add on to buy a used Felder KF700. The Felder is a better panel machine than the Festool MFT. Its a better miter/crosscut saw than the Festool Kapex. The shaper with a high speed router spindle is a similar setup to the Jessem with the added bonus of being a shaper with 1-1/4" tooling. What i left off from my initial post is he might want to rethink his needs and swap out 3 tools for one better tool. I cant see the reasoning behind spending $2,500-3,000+ on a used OMGA RAS when a used slider in the $4,000+/- range will be 5 times more diverse in its utility. Nothing against the OMGA, they make great tools.

[Kevin Jenness]

OMGA's are not cheap. Kapex's are not cheap. Given a similar budget, one can do ok for themselves on the used market. Here is an example--well, two examples--i recently purchased a 1970s Martin T75 for $750 that would more than likely be a better table saw than Mark currently has, and would be a better crosscut chop saw than Mark is going to buy. That is example #1. Example #2 is years ago i sold a festool MFT, Kapex, and Jessem router table with every imaginable accessory and add on to buy a used Felder KF700. The Felder is a better panel machine than the Festool MFT. Its a better miter/crosscut saw than the Festool Kapex. The shaper with a high speed router spindle is a similar setup to the Jessem with the added bonus of being a shaper with 1-1/4" tooling. What i left off from my initial post is he might want to rethink his needs and swap out 3 tools for one better tool. I cant see the reasoning behind spending $2,500-3,000+ on a used OMGA RAS when a used slider in the $4,000+/- range will be 5 times more diverse in its utility. Nothing against the OMGA, they make great tools.

I agree in principle, but I (just barely) have room for a slider, and Mark doesn't. If he can wait and find as smoking hot a deal on a high end miter saw as you got on your machines he should be a happy camper. $750 for a Martin T75 that is not a complete basket case is not something I would expect to see.

[Michael Schuch]

as far as working a radial and creep issues and the right blade or a blade that will more self feed the bigger issue is operator error.

You keep your arm straight, if they did the motor cannot self feed. Bent elbow that every one uses is the biggest problem and everyone does.

had two Omgas show up in excellent condition for 250.00 canadian each. should have scooped one but waited for an older saw.


That could have something to do with the blade. Have you tried a negative rake?



The carriage and 7.5hp motor (a real 1947 7.5hp) have to be 100+ pounds and I setup this RAS to have about a 5 degree incline so gravity automatically pulls it backwards. I have made thousands of cuts on this saw. Moving to my fathers 10" Delta turret arm saw with a 1hp motor has a completely different feel to the cut being used to the huge amount of mass I have to move on my saw. The blade on my fathers saw is a Freud ultimate cut off blade just like the 15" Freud Ultimate cut off blade on my big saw.

My first RAS 30 or so years ago was a Craftsman radial arm saw and it was scary to use. This is where I first learned how to properly align a RAS which helped significantly.

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The point I was trying to convey was more that gaining a comfort level with a RAS greatly increases its functionality. The first time I fired up my 16" RAS my heart was definitely beating very fast... to the point that I still remember that first cut 20+ years ago. Now I have a very good comfort level with the saw... I have a healthy respect for the saw and the damage I can do to myself with it but I no longer have a fear of it.

[Kevin Jenness]

No matter the mass of the saw or one's familiarity with it, the blade design does matter - a 0 degree or negative rake angle blade on a radial saw is easier to control than a positive rake angle blade like the ones you are using.

The heavy old RAS cutoff saw at work had a sash weight connected through a pulley to the cutting head for positive return force. It still was no fun when it grabbed a thick piece and jammed. The scariest thing I saw was when an architect came down to buck up multiple lengths of random rippings for kindling by first pulling, then pushing the saw through the drops.

[Warren Lake]

more people who dont know what they are doing. Keep a straight arm the saw cant climb, the removed material is behind it if it starts to grab your straight arm wont fold. You are pushing it back into an area wiht no material to grab if need be but main thing it cant climb when you arm is straight as it will not fold at the elbow.

and the old navy guy used it backwards all the time that is material in with saw fully out then cut into it. He also cut tons of aluminum on it same way.

[Rod Wolfy]

I have used a miter for years and learned on my dad's RAS. He pointed out that the blade on a RAS kicks the wood up, off the table and so it was not a safe. A common mistake on a miter saw is people use it as a "chop" saw. When you lift the blade while it's still spinning?!?! I've gotten hurt as a result. You need to leave the blade down until it stops.

I had a DeWalt, a Makita and now a Bosch Axel glide. The Bosch is much too heavy for moving anywhere, but it's been great for cutting most of my wood down for whatever project I'm working on. It's been accurate enough for me, but I don't mind being off by 1/16" now and again on most projects.

[John TenEyck]

OMGA's are not cheap. Kapex's are not cheap. Given a similar budget, one can do ok for themselves on the used market. Here is an example--well, two examples--i recently purchased a 1970s Martin T75 for $750 that would more than likely be a better table saw than Mark currently has, and would be a better crosscut chop saw than Mark is going to buy. That is example #1. Example #2 is years ago i sold a festool MFT, Kapex, and Jessem router table with every imaginable accessory and add on to buy a used Felder KF700. The Felder is a better panel machine than the Festool MFT. Its a better miter/crosscut saw than the Festool Kapex. The shaper with a high speed router spindle is a similar setup to the Jessem with the added bonus of being a shaper with 1-1/4" tooling. What i left off from my initial post is he might want to rethink his needs and swap out 3 tools for one better tool. I cant see the reasoning behind spending $2,500-3,000+ on a used OMGA RAS when a used slider in the $4,000+/- range will be 5 times more diverse in its utility. Nothing against the OMGA, they make great tools.

Your economics make sense but you can cut perfect miters for far less money and in far less space. Nearly any saw, including ones most people already own, plus a shooting board is really all you need. It's not a viable solution for a finish carpenter, but neither is a slider. But for a hobbiest or custom furniture maker it's a perfectly acceptable and low cost solution.

[Brian Holcombe]

Outlay is only one form of expense, spending shop hours is another. The shop hour expense is harder to calculate but often considerably more expensive over a year or multi-year time line.

I use a slider, use the Omga, and have spent years cutting them by hand and using a shooting board. I also used a Kapex and a Kapex combined with a shooting board to perfect the cut. I’ve cut thousands of miters in each one of these configurations. The Omga and slider are the fastest approach that does not sacrifice accuracy and remains accurate over time. The shooting board is the slowest but can be extremely accurate and the SCMS (Kapex and hitachi in my case) is the not any slower than the Omga but is not nearly as accurate over repeated use.

[Bryan Hall]

The one kind of saw that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is a non-sliding miter saw, which I think of as a chop saw, from the major manufacturers. I have had a Dewalt for about 8 years thats been really abused and it is still as accurate as I care to measure-I don't see gaps in picture frames...While I have never owned a scms, the slide mechanism really seems to introduce a lot of error into the system.

I am following this thread closely, because I have a sliding table saw that I really like, but I only ever use it for crosscutting, and it takes a ton of space my 1000sf shop. I am thinking about moving it along, if I can find a very good cross cutting solution that would occupy a narrow space against a wall. I don't build very many cabinets, though I have a couple of cabinet projects coming up.

The Omgas sure look nice, but it seems like the chop saws at 1/10th the price could be dialed in, especially of they aren't asked to move around. I'd buy a used Omga in a heart beat, if one showed up at decent price, but they sure don't pop up around here.

The saw I mentioned, the dewalt 716XPS is non sliding. I find it to be excellent, even with being jostled in a work van all day. I simply find it redundant to my non sliding table saw for the most part. It's rare that I NEED my chop saw in the shop, so I just use the table saw.