Effect of Traffic Cameras

[ChrisA Edwards]

I just returned from a 2 week trip to England. It's been 20 years since I've been back so quite a lot has changed.

We rented a car and visited relatives in various parts of the country.

Last time I was there, the Motorway speed limit was 70mph, but most folks were running 85-90mph.

Brits are far more courteous drivers than Americans and use the lanes, on the highways, to not impede those that would like to travel a little faster.

But on this trip, one thing I noticed, everyone is driving the speed limit, or no more that 2-3mph over the limit.

This is true is city, suburban and highway roads.

When mentioned this to my relatives, they were surprised at my assessment, but I think they've been slowly conditioned by more and more speed cameras, that they know see the speed limit sign and obey it.

Where speed cameras are in use, there have to be posted signs. These signs don't need to be right where the camera is, just somewhere on the road before the actual camera.

They are also using average speed cameras, where a pair of cameras will be used to assess your average speed through a zone, could be a couple of hundred yards or a mile through a village, so again people slow down to the speed limit.

These cameras are all digital and mail you your violation and add points to your license. I think I read somewhere that they cap at 2400 pounds per day in computer generated fines, which at 100 pounds per incident, doesn't take too long a stretch of road to accumulate.

I'm not sure what legal standing you have to fight these in court. I'm guessing by how everyone is obeying the limits, no much wiggle room.

Many Motorways (Interstates) have been converted to what they call Smart Motorways. They have multiple overhead lane signs, about a 1/2 mile apart, closer in areas that get a little more congested, that inform of lane closure due to an accident or disabled vehicle and also have dynamic adjustable lane speed limits, again designed to keep traffic flowing. So you have a 70mph Motorway, but as traffic gets heavy, certain lanes may drop down to 60mph or slower, and likewise the speed camera is also adjusting its threshold for violation, so everyone slows down.

They also have different speed and lane limits for larger vehicles, i.e. trucks and every truck was observing their requirements.

With these smart Motorways, they also have standby breakdown/rescue services that will despatch as soon as there is a need.

But what is interesting, for these smart Motorways, they have removed the hard shoulders and basically used those spare lanes as driving lanes, effectively going from a 3 lane to a 5 lane highway, giving them 40% more road.

From my tourist perspective, this all seemed to work very well, in 1200 miles of driving, we saw no actual traffic accidents and only two lane closures for a disabled vehicle, and in both cases, traffic still flowed an 40+mph past the incidents.

This may seem all a bit 'Big Brother is Watching', and that is definitely the case for British law Enforcement, but if you are not breaking the rules, you've got nothing to be worried about.

[Frederick Skelly]

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

[Ron Citerone]

I might welcome it after a trip from Phila to Nags Head NC last month with bonehead moves all over the place. I will say I think speeding is less of a safety issue than the lane switching weavers. Cameras may not stop that. Need unmarked Police cars out there IMO. Cameras might help a lot though.

[Ronald Blue]

I might welcome it after a trip from Phila to Nags Head NC last month with bonehead moves all over the place. I will say I think speeding is less of a safety issue than the lane switching weavers. Cameras may not stop that. Need unmarked Police cars out there IMO. Cameras might help a lot though.

I think in most instances the "weavers" are also speeders. You don't have to drive far to experience "stupid" in my experience. It still amazes me how many cars don't have turn signals.

[Jack Frederick]

Effective management of traffic and people. People mostly, traffic is secondary. Autonomous vehicles will be easier to accept once you have, as a society, accepted the “rules of the road.”

[Charlie Velasquez]

We have them in our small community, three permanent and a few mobile.
They are well placed: two are about 1000 ft inside city limits where it transitions from a 4-lane state highway at 65 mph to our city speed limit of 35 mph near our shopping centers. Another near our high school which is on a state highway. The mobiles are moved around the city as needed: near schools or work sites and such.
The ones near traffic lights also check for running reds.

Many people have complained about them as being used mainly as money generators, but our police department truly used them as safety actions. At the ones near traffic signals the PD extended the yellow time another couple of seconds. Several signs before the vehicle gets in the area, a few more reminders.
The PD always announce both in the newspaper and on their web site where the mobile cameras will be.

A multi-year study reported no change in the number of accidents at our major camera area. But that was actually a win, as the number of vehicles increased, cell phone usage was just starting to soar, and the severity of accidents decreased. Many in Iowa tried to get our state legislature to ban them as unconstitutional, but our state supreme court upheld their usage.

[Christopher Herzog]

I travel for work too much and this issue is growing. Vidalia, GA has them on the side of the road as you approach town and school zones. Total Hazard County, Boss Hog activity. Locals have gotten school zone tickets when school was not in session. Chicago has them on right turn on red intersections. Even with a dedicated lane to turn and merge they will mail you a ticket. That town is an arm pit of humanity! Las Vegas emailed me a four dollar toll, i dont recall ever even seeing or being on a toll road? They billed national rental car, they shared that good news with me out of the kindness of their hearts.

Shaking my head at what the future holds....

Chris

[Bill Dufour]

My town installed some and had to shut them down because of lawsuits. They are talking about turning them back on after five years or so. The ticket was being generated in a different state by a computer not a person.
People soon figured out no officer would respond if the violater appealed in court, automatic dismisal. Then they read the traffic laws and realized only a sworn, licensed police officer can issue a ticket. Same as if I gave you a ticket for speeding on my street. You can just ignore it since I am not a cop.
They never placed them on the worst intersection in town. Highway overpass that necks down and always has cars who tried to cross before the light turns and end up stuck in the middle blocking traffic.
Bill D
Bill D

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Years ago, my ex wife and I were traveling through Florida on the florida turnpike. I had driven most of the night before on I-95, so when we got to the Florida turnpike, she took over. When we got to the tool booth to get off, the toll collector directed us over to a police officer waiting on the side. Seems she had traveled the 130+ miles in less than 100 minutes. They wrote her up for the average speed between entrance and exit.

When they first put traffic cameras at an intersection along RT 50 in Arlington VA, to catch people running the red lights, there were warnings for the first few months and then tickets. One traffic engineer told me that there were a host of people driving rental cars going through waiving the finger at the camera. So the county started getting the records of who rented the cars and sending out tickets. One nearby state started a photo toll collecting process. If you don't have an easy pass, the camera takes a picture and mails the owner a bill for the toll. One guy was caught selling a cover or shade of some sort that dropped down to obscure the license plate. My wife and I recently drove on both Maryland and Delaware tool roads with that system, in her new car, and despite the passage of 3 months, still haven't gotten a bill.

[Jim Koepke]

On my last trip to California passing over the Carquinez bridge was a lot smoother without the toll booths. The system sent me a bill in the mail that was payable online.

Not sure if one should feel sorry for all the toll takers who no longer have to breath exhaust all day. Maybe they get to lick envelopes all day now.

We used to have school zone traffic cams. Here there is a 20 MPH limit during school hours. They nailed me a couple times. Complaints about the system and the contractor running them waiting a month or two to send out the notices got them removed. Now the school zones have a large sign with a display showing your speed.

We do have red light cameras. Candy and I are often going, "ooooh" together when we see someone run through a red light in an intersection with a camera.

In Portland large signs to show the speed of flow for the traffic have been installed over the lanes of I-5. People have not figured out how it is supposed to work and still try to 'get where they are going faster.'


I think in most instances the "weavers" are also speeders.

Yes, if a driver wants to go above the speed limit they have to get around those obeying the limit.

Finally, many drivers would love to see people impeding the smooth flow of traffic pulled over.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Finally, many drivers would love to see people impeding the smooth flow of traffic pulled over.
jtk

I'd vote for that. How many times do you see someone going 5-10 mph below the speed limit, yacking on their cell phone, in the left lane? Or someone taking their foot off the accelerator 1/2 mile before a traffic light (even when green), to get the most mileage out of their hybrid car?

Edit: My all time favorite was a woman holding up traffic in the left lane. She had a plate of pancakes balanced on the steering wheel and was eating them with a fork and knife. (I kid you not.)

[Malcolm McLeod]

... Finally, many drivers would love to see people impeding the smooth flow of traffic pulled over.


I've been told by AR residents that they have a law on the books making it a ticket-able offense to impede the flow of traffic (in the left lane). Speed at which you are 'impeding' is of no consequence. (For your anecdotal enjoyment only; I have neither researched nor been victimized by this.:confused:)

TX spends million$ on signs "Left Lane for Passing Only". Not sure what the ROI is on this.

[Michael Weber]

Some discussion locally here about cameras. On reason many are opposed is that supposedly private companies supply and operate the system and profit from every ticket. It may not be like that everywhere. The local fb page is full of complaints about folk running red lights and is indeed a problem as I note frequently. That may be partially due to my towns psychotic need to let people in from side streets instantly at lights.

[Michael Weber]

I've been told by AR residents that they have a law on the books making it a ticket-able offense to impede the flow of traffic (in the left lane). Speed at which you are 'impeding' is of no consequence. (For your anecdotal enjoyment only; I have neither researched nor been victimized by this.:confused:)

TX spends million$ on signs "Left Lane for Passing Only". Not sure what the ROI is on this.I live in western Arkansas and have long wondered about that. If I’m going the speed limit (as I should be) and need to go around someone going 1 mph slower am I impeding someone speeding up behind me? If I speed up substantially to quickly pass will I get pulled over for speeding by the officer over the hill? Currently I pass very quickly but always worried about “what if”. Kind of a catch 22 decision. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.

[Scott Clausen]

It used to be common curtesy to have slower traffic keep right. Now the mentality is if I am going the speed limit I can drive in any lane I want. This causes a lot of weaving and multiple lanes make it even more dangerous. Cameras may help but but waze tells me "speed trap ahead" so I doubt it will do much. My son while living in Switzerland had to learn to come to a full dead stop, if you roll it in the least you will see the flash of the camera.

[Brian Tymchak]

We used to have red light cameras here in Ohio. But then a state congressman got nailed by one so he got a law passed to ban them.. Claimed it was unconstitutional to not have the citation issued by an officer that witnessed the event.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I live in western Arkansas and have long wondered about that. If I’m going the speed limit (as I should be) and need to go around someone going 1 mph slower am I impeding someone speeding up behind me? If I speed up substantially to quickly pass will I get pulled over for speeding by the officer over the hill? Currently I pass very quickly but always worried about “what if”. Kind of a catch 22 decision. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Purely speculation, but I'd assume such a law would be intentionally vague to give the troopers some discretion? If you're in the left lane, impeding 1 car, and you are quasi-actively passing someone, you're golden. But if the lane behind me looks like LA rush hour for 3 miles, I'm going to change lanes or hope the judge is my uncle.

[Charlie Velasquez]

We used to have red light cameras here in Ohio. But then a state congressman got nailed by one so he got a law passed to ban them.. Claimed it was unconstitutional to not have the citation issued by an officer that witnessed the event.
But that was the rationale for a group in Iowa. But in Iowa traffic cams are not written as a penal code violation, but rather a city ordinance, somewhat similar to a parking ticket. It is the vehicle that gets the citation, and the owner of the vehicle that is responsible for the payment. He can argue it was a different driver and the civil courts will readily allow you to sue the driver if the owner can show by preponderance of evidence that someone else was driving.
It does not count against you wrt affecting your driver's license. The information is a public document and it is up to the insurance company to decide if your rates will increase.
A third party is responsible for issuing the citation and collection of fines under the auspices of the local government (the company that did ours was based inFlorida). There is an appeal process, but it does not need a law officer to appear in court. Rather you can sit down with an LEO and review the video. It is simple, "Is that your license plate on the vehicle?".
"Is that license plate on the correct vehicle?"

But if you choose not to pay, the municipality does not get involved. Rather the third party will take you to small claims court and report it to your credit rating.

When the Iowa Supreme Court affirmed its constitutionality it upset some South Dakotans that traveled through Iowa. South Dakota passed a law to deny sending car ownership information to Iowan agencies. Not sure how, but I remember reading it didn't slow down that Florida company too much.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Hey, I was one of those guys that left off the gas long before a light. I had traveled a certain route hundreds of times. RT 30 in PA, to rt 41 in PA , to rt 7 in DE to rt 1in DE.. I knew when I crested the hill, that if the light was green at the bottom, it would be red by the time I got there. If it was red, it would be green by the time I got there so I stayed on the gas., There were two more such lights in Delaware along Rt 7 . Currently, there is such a light along rt 24 near my home. Along 24, there are two lanes in each direction. I love it when some fool races up to the light and has to stop, and I coast up just as the light turns green and I can pass them in the other lane.

The ones that aggravate the heck out of me are the ones that drive 10 mph because there is snow on the road. When their car starts to slip going up hill, , they stomp on it and fishtail sideways. Or when their car is going down hilll, they lock the breaks and can't stop.

[Scott Clausen]

We used to have red light cameras here in Ohio. But then a state congressman got nailed by one so he got a law passed to ban them.. Claimed it was unconstitutional to not have the citation issued by an officer that witnessed the event.
They had companies go around and set up red light cameras for cities and get a cut of the revenue. They got removed after an attorney found out they had shortened the length of the yellow light time to boost the offender count. They also did a study that showed accidents actually increased after they were installed. People were so concerned about getting a ticket that they would slam on the breaks at the first sign of yellow and get rear ended.

[Jim Koepke]

They also did a study that showed accidents actually increased after they were installed. People were so concerned about getting a ticket that they would slam on the breaks at the first sign of yellow and get rear ended.

Could it be there is possibly a new problem inherent in almost every solution?

jtk

[Bill Dufour]

I belive part of the lawsuit that banned the cameras here was the police have to us their enforcement to help the flow of traffic and to teach the offenders to follow the rules. So cars making a mistake have to be informed they made a mistake, and all the others can learn from that. Giving a speeding ticket one month latter does nothing to reduce overall speed that day.
In court it is a valid defense if all the other cars are speeding at the same rate. Why were you chosen that day to be ticketed. why not yesterday why not tomorrow for the same speed.
Bill D
BillD.

[Brian Elfert]

In court it is a valid defense if all the other cars are speeding at the same rate. Why were you chosen that day to be ticketed. why not yesterday why not tomorrow for the same speed.


I don't understand why the fact that everyone was speeding is a valid defense. A single officer can't stop every car that is speeding.

[Rod Sheridan]

Red light and speed enforcement cameras are becoming more common where I live.

I love these voluntary taxation devices…..Rod.

[Bill Dufour]

I don't understand why the fact that everyone was speeding is a valid defense. A single officer can't stop every car that is speeding.


If the police are not enforcing the law then they are implying the faster speed is allowed. No they do not have top stop every car, but they should be stopping one as soon as they finish writing the ticket for the last one. Other drivers would notice and slow down before they get a ticket.
Bill D

[Bruce Wrenn]

NC used to have a bunch of red light cameras, run by private contractors. Only problem is State Constitution says all fines go to local school boards. Plus they photo shopped licensees, especially on toll road. One lady who got ticket with picture of a car with her licensee number on it. Only problem is she had a receipt showing she had turned in licensee a couple years earlier. Case dismissed, with civil lawsuit following to collect damages. Settled for an unknown amount.

[jared herbert]

I live in Iowa. A few years ago I got a letter from a traffic control company saying my vehicle which was a Ford pickup was speeding in a town 250 miles from me that I had never been in. They included a picture of my supposed vehicle which was plain to see a 4 door sedan not a pickup. And the whole thing was signed by an officer from that city that stated he had checked everything and it was correct. Turns out they had read a Q as an O. Obviously the officer never even looked at anything and just signed it. I had to make a couple of angry calls to that city and the whole thing was eventually dropped. One of my beefs with the whole process is that I wonder how many people, maybe elderly or gullible, who would have just mailed in the fine out of fear or confusion.

[Scott Kilroy]

I've got mixed feelings about it. On the one hand it promotes safer driving on the other hand I live in New York City and cameras are everywhere and they charge $50 a ticket!

[Bruce Wrenn]

Here toll road doesn't send out bill in time for it to be paid without incurring an additional fine. Twice we have had to BEG them for a bill. They always say "it went out yesterday," but postmark shows different. Usually two to three days after you call them. We always call from cell phone, as we can prove what time we called them, and how long we were on the phone.

[Ronald Blue]

Here toll road doesn't send out bill in time for it to be paid without incurring an additional fine. Twice we have had to BEG them for a bill. They always say "it went out yesterday," but postmark shows different. Usually two to three days after you call them. We always call from cell phone, as we can prove what time we called them, and how long we were on the phone.

That's why I have a "toll tag". All states are supposed to have a uniform coordinated system but even though it's a law I don't think some states are in compliance yet. Oklahoma for one still isn't part of it as far as I know. I know that Florida and Texas have some boothless toll roads. Illinois has what they call "Open Roads" and if you have the toll transponder the charge is 1/3 of the cash alternative plus you don't have to slow down. This also works in most of the East Coast states. Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York for certain. It maintains a balance and if it drops below $10 it automatically adds $20 back. With 3 toll roads on the way to my daughters it has been very convenient.

[Jim Koepke]

Here toll road doesn't send out bill in time for it to be paid without incurring an additional fine. Twice we have had to BEG them for a bill. They always say "it went out yesterday," but postmark shows different. Usually two to three days after you call them. We always call from cell phone, as we can prove what time we called them, and how long we were on the phone.

Bruce, could you tell us where here is so those of us who do not want this experience can avoid it?

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I love these voluntary taxation devices…..Rod.

Same as the lottery - voluntary taxation. Mostly paid by lower income people who are buying hope.

Mike