Format Sliders, new or used

[Ed Kowaski]

I'm in the market for a 8 or 10 foot slider. I've owned two in the past. A Rock(not so)well RE-35 and an Altendorf F45. My budget is 10K or less with a 12K ceiling. I want something better then the rock not so well.

MiniMax has offerings and a good rep, there is a dealer within driving distance. Rojek I can't see so I think I pass. Used f45's seem to run 7K and up. I know the saw well and I love it.

Been away from wood for a decade and I'm not up on all the brands anymore. I welcome your input on other brands to consider and opinions on new vs used.

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Well....I'm a Mini Max fan. They would be my choice. If you are in the US, they only sell direct now to the best of my knowledge. I'm personally considering the SC4 for a future purchase, special ordered with the 8' slider.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Ed,
Well if you can find a well maintained slider of the likes of SCM/MM, Altendorf or Martin then go for it. I personelly like buying new tools and getting the great service from companies like MM. As many folks here know I am a big MM fan and bigger Italian tool fan :D In your first price range the MM S315WS would fit nicely. I owned one before I upgraded to a larger capacity 10.5 ft MM Formula S35. The S315 was a great saw and recently has been upgraded and it is now even better than before. Your second price cap would put very close to a S35 depending on when you bought it (at a show or during a special sale) I do beleive they also have some new stuff coming out so it is best to call MM in Austin to see. I simply and honestly believe that in these price ranges there just is not a better sliding saw than the MiniMax. I will even say in the high price tag range it is just as hard to beat a SCM.

[lou sansone]

I would think that only the s315 and above ( s35 ) would be in the league of the saws you have used in that past in the mm line of machines. I have looked at the Griggio saws and they are pretty stout and worth a look at. From what I have been able to see, but not in person, Felder and Format 4 are also worth taking a look at. Oh yea Steton and Casadei are also worth looking at.



lou

[Dev Emch]

I am not suggesting anything but you may wish to take a look at the martin T-75. Of course, this saw would be used as the T-75 has not been made for some time. One of the used machine dealers on woodweb has a T-75 which luckily is a later model.

The T-75 was a solid cast iron machine to the floor. In fact, it shared a number of parts and designs with the T-17. But the table was machined off by the blade and a extremely long slider was attached. This was actually the first the panel saw to have a fully tilting arbor. Also this newer machine uses hardended steel wear strips on the slider which are currently available from martin in North Carolina.

The altendorf was a pretty good machine but no match to a martin. Sorry, I have no idea of what a Rock might be.

I do need to ask a stupid question. Why do you need a panel slider with an 8 to 10 foot table? Do you envision yourself cranking out lots of case parts made from sheet goods? Will sheet goods be the primary material in your shop and if not, do you have plans to get a second operations saw for handling hard woods? The reason i ask is that most long panel saws are really optimized for sheet good operations and are not the most freindly saw to use for small hard wood based cabinet projects. If you need one, that is one thing. But if you dont need to crank on buku sheet panels, you may wish to rethink this and go with a more conventional slider or a shorter one. From personal experience, these things are buku massive!

Best of luck in your quest...

[tod evans]

ed, you`ve allready got some good advice. in the price range you list i went with mini max but i wanted new. you can never go wrong with altendorf but in that price bracket look closely where the saw has been.....02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Dev,
Maybe I misunderstood you but it seems you have some "issues" with the longer capabilities of the 8-10 ft range of format sliders?? Not sure why but I guess you have your own reasons and opinions ;)

Yes they will take up a bit more terrritory in that the sliding table itself extends out a bit from the main cabinet, the outrigger tables (when on) and outrigger support arm will take up area to the left of the blade, and of course when ripping and/or crosscutting long or wide stock (sheet or solid) you would have to have the area for the saw to work in. In addition, it is retraining time as the operator position is on the left side of the saw not behind it like the typical American style Cabinet Saw is. Yes there are some serious differences but I have found them all to be for the much better in capabilties and safety

I came from a Unisaw into a 8.5ft euro slider and the Unisaw had the same basic shape as your T-17. I have never ever missed that Unisaw other than for sentimental reasons. My initial reasons for going into a slider were: allow me to handle sheetgoods easier & accurately, able to accurately crosscut anything no matter what width or length (I could not stand the sliding crosscut table I made for my Unisaw while accurate it was cumbersome and limiting). I have now realized those initial reasons and have now gained many more: I am able to straight line rip anything! Try putting a straight edge on a 10/4 piece of mahoganny about 10ft long any easier, I can set up my outrigger on one end for 90d cuts while using my miter guage on the other end for angle cuts, I can put bevel cuts on anthing I want no matter how long (great for installation wedges), with the addition of my double router table I can now do accurate dados (this is only possible due to the long stroke capabilities of the saw, I am in crosscut heaven with that large outrigger table & crosscut fence with stops - I have soo much repeatability and accuracy it is scary.

If someone is so engrained in they way they work that using longer stock, no matter what the make up of it is, they do not have the space for it or the extra $ to spend then I could see where a short stroke slider could be handy. I could even see if someone had a big shop, setting up one 10.5 ft slider for sheetgoods/long solid stock only and then using the short stroke slider for small parts only. This would most definately give you the most extreme speed and accuracy.

Other than the above reasons, I can not see why someone would not want the added flexibility of a full length slider. Oh and by the way, for the record, that is my opinion of my opinion and since I am the self proclaimed "unofficial spokesman for myself" I can not be held accountable for anything I say or THINK. :confused: :D

[tod evans]

paul, as you know when i bought my slider i kept my old rt. i did so because i have worked on a conventional style saw for too many years. i`ll agree that a slider is the quickest way to straight line a board short of a dedicated straightline saw. and the sliders do excell at sheetgood processing but a lot of my work involves rips of solid stock that range from 3/4" to 6" and for this i turn to the conventional saw. i find it awkward at best to do lots of ripping on the slider. i`m one of the folks who when ripping stands right where the slider is so i feel off balance when i try to rip on that style of saw. i wouldn`t want to do without either one after owning a slider but i wouldn`t want one as my only saw either...02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Tod,
Mornin how is the weather down there? got real cold real fast up here!

Yes I too use to stand for ripping where the slider is on my Unisaw. Have you ever tried to stand right on the left side of the blade on your S315 for ripping? Either place the outrigger one end or remove it. In this position you can really hold the stock against the fence tightly both before and after the blade. I use an overhead guard so the blade is completely covered. I find this to be a more comfortable postition and I have much more control over the stock than ever before. This may not be the intensions for "proper" use of the saw but it works for me. Of course the other options are to use a parralel ripping jig or a ripping jig that works off of the crosscut fence (I am working on refining mine) but then that may not be the fastest method either if you already have two saws set up. I just cringe at the idea of using a CS ever again. It is humbling enough running a 2.5 inch cove cutter on my shaper and that is with a power feeder. Those sound waves hit you like a subwoofer!

[tod evans]

mornin` paul, it`s 60 degrees here at7;30! to answer your question, yes i`ve tried ripping standing beside the slider and no doubt it`s safer but it`s just not what i`m used to after all these years. i`ts definately a doable dance but i prefer to put my body in the line of fire for any more than a couple of cuts, it`s just what i`m used to and i`ve got the scars to prove it:) if a fellow starts on a slider he`s a whole lot less likely to get punctured that`s for sure! i gotta get back to the shop.....tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Well truth be told I do like the winter. I enjoy using my chainsaw and chopping wood for our fireplaces. I like snow and cold weather also but do like every other season also. I use to ski quite a bit and even raced in college....but I digress.....anyway... I am not sure if we are saying the same thing here. If you stand on the side of the blade (on the S315) you are not in the line of fire one bit and if you use a OH guard you can not hit the blade. I use this method for long rips if I need one or to pieces. Until I perfect my ripping jig, referenced off of the crosscut fence for ease, I rough rip using the bandsaw and then dimension off of the planer. Very fast, safe and accurate. Now if I get the slider jig to work as planned, I will be able to eleminate a step or two and do final ripping in one safe quick step.
Now get back to work! Maybe I should too?

[lou sansone]

and thus the exchange between paul and tod point out my delema.... unfortunatly I only have a 1 horse stall in my shop.

we will just have to see
lou

[tod evans]

and thus the exchange between paul and tod point out my delema.... unfortunatly I only have a 1 horse stall in my shop.

we will just have to see
lou

lou, isn`t there somebody in your neck of the woods who has a slider you can play with for a weekend so you can make up your mind with a few hours on one? as far as the dance goes it`s pretty much the same regardless of manufacturer. as you know there are pros and cons to any equipment so keep up your research and don`t get in a hurry....02 tod

[lou sansone]

hi tod

I am looking. First I had to get all the old iron machines off the short list. most of them are off and a couple are still waiting for me to take them on the dance floor:cool: . You know half the fun is the journey... there are a couple of nice folks in CT and that have a modern slider and who have offered to let me take a look at.

lou

[Ed Kowaski]

Hi Jim,
I'm going to look at the SC4 as well. Hope it works out for you. If you've never used a format slider before brace yourself for a case of the permanent grins.

[Ed Kowaski]

Paul,
Perhaps you could shed some light on the differences *in use* between the s315 and the s35. I have the spec sheets so really what I'm asking is more of a how do they feel different or do they. If you were blindfolded could you tell which was which. If so why, that kind of thing.

Also you mentioned the s315 has been ungraded. Could you detail what's new so that I can be sure I get the latest if I go that route.

Thanks for coming to the party :)

[Ed Kowaski]

Lou,
Good news on the Griggio and Casadei. I've found many used saws from both. I've never seen a Casadei machine and the Griggio I know is an old, stout and some what crude. Hinged outrigger arm, steel and cast slider etc. Seems like the Italian's have really stepped up to the plate with nice format sliders since back in the day. Thanks.

[Jim Becker]

I'm going to look at the SC4 as well.

Yea, it will likely be the SC4 unless I decide to go saw/shaper combo. Then it gets harder and incurs a much bigger investment.

[Ed Kowaski]

Dev,
She must weigh two and half ton or better! Bolting to the floor is strictly optional.

Couple of concerns. I live in a somewhat remote area so getting her unloaded and placed in the shop will be spendy. However where there is a will there is a way. More troubling is that it looks to me like the entire sliding table is cast iron and steel. Heavy and harder to put into motion or stop. The rockwell re-35 (made in Brazil) I owned was a 4' steel slider. I didn't like it. I'm not suggesting the Martin and Rockwell are from the same planet but still weight is weight. Five minutes with the Martin and I'd know :(

I could make due with a 4' and a 5' would handle my needs quite well. Once you arrive at that point it's a small step up to an 8'. As far as working solid wood goes, I'm in agreement with Paul. I don't think a cabinet saw can best a slider in many areas, in fact I can't think of a single operation I do that I'd prefer a CS for.

I have a fine little (500 lbs) Hammond Glider that I think will make a fine joiners saw after a visit to the machine shop, no tilt though.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,
Perhaps you could shed some light on the differences *in use* between the s315 and the s35. I have the spec sheets so really what I'm asking is more of a how do they feel different or do they. If you were blindfolded could you tell which was which. If so why, that kind of thing.

Also you mentioned the s315 has been ungraded. Could you detail what's new so that I can be sure I get the latest if I go that route.

Thanks for coming to the party :)

Well here it goes. First if you are looking for an industrial grade high quality saw that just flat out produces accurately either one will do.

The obvious differences are: one is a 8.5 ft slider at around 1500lbs and the other is a 10.5 ft at 2000lbs. The S35 comes with an overhead gantry style guard the S315 has to be ordered (and I did have one and while it is not a swing away type is was pretty good also) they both come with the outrigger and main crosscut fence and a big ass :D miter guage.

The not so obvious differences: the main controls for the S35 (other than scoring adjustment) are all on the operating side. The S315 has the blade height and scoring adjustment on the rear of the saw while on/off and blade angle control are on the operator side. The S35 has a 1" arbor and the S315 has 5/8". The scoring motor on the S315 is 3/4 hp with a 20mm arbor and the S35 has 1hp scoring motor with a 3/4 scoring blade arbor. Main blade max on S35 14", S315 12". The scoring adjustment on the S35 is done via two lseparate levers that you slide up/down and the S315 is done via one one shaft with two locking devises and one knob (at end for up and down and the other for left/right. The outrigger table on the S35 hooks on to the edge lip of the slider (and is bigger and heavier) while on the S315 it uses a bar that slides along a slot in side of the slider that the outrigger fits on.

Use of both saws: They both function the same. They are both accurate and well built. The S315 is a little lighter and really made for the small/medium shop scenario. The S35 is built for heavy duty day in day out abuse of the large scale shop, it simply is a beast without all the bells and whistles. It is safe to call the S35 the big brother to the S315. They are both true trunion saws with a massive motor assembly. See one of my prior posts for pictures on the S35 assembly. Lets put it this way the S35 is way overkill for my current operation but thats me and I like it. The slider on the S35 is bigger and wider and while just as smooth as the S315 feels a bit different. I would say it feels stiffer in the sense that you feel the more mass behind it all while it glides still quite efortlessly. Everytime I hear that "whoose" I smile :) Both of my main motors were 9hp 3ph so no difference there.

Likes : I like the microadjustment on the rip fence of the S315 better in that you push down on the knob and it engages a wheel into a toothed bar along the full length of the rip fence travel. The S35 micro adjustability works in only a certain range but the S35 rip and casting housing is much more substantial and just about can not be flexed one bit. I realy love the S35 overhead guard it is all metal with only the clear plastic window being plastic only (actually the same applies for the S315 I had). The S35 guard has a gas piston assited lift mechanism as it is just so massive. The entire guard can be unlocked at the main post and be swiveled out of the way in either direction! Now the sliding table assembly on the S35 has to be shipped off of the machine and boy is it heavy! but the attachedment of it was an absolute breeze. You lay the table on the carriage and use two cone shaped index pins the seat the table into the correct position and then bolt it down, that is it! It is aligned so well at the factory that it was perfect. Now that truly is worth mentioning.

Dislikes in both: they aint cheap and the manuals stink!

The new S351WS has some new cosmetic changes. It looks very sleek and sexy, something that only a Italian designer can produce :p The slider is wider and a bit beefier also. The outboard table is a bit different as the new available overhead guard is. The handle at the end of the slider is also different in that it is part of the metal attachment piece at the end instead of a separate handle, once again it looks sleeker. Other than that I do not know as this is what I noticed at the show I saw it at. It may be heavier also.

Both of my saws worked great the S35 is just bigger and heavier everwhere! I hope that helps

[Ed Kowaski]

Thank you very much Paul, that exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I really appreciate the above and beyond effort you put into your reply. It's a big help since I can not view the S35 without driving 6 hours one way.

[Alan Turner]

I have a fine little (500 lbs) Hammond Glider that I think will make a fine joiners saw after a visit to the machine shop, no tilt though.


Ed,
Interesting comment about the Hammond. I saw one in action, and fell in love right away. Then, I saw a Hammond "Trim-O-Saw" on flea bay, local, so I went to take a look, and ended up a buyer. It is also a printer's saw, but with a miter guage like I have never seen instead of a sliding table. Perfect, Starrett perfect, 90's. But, I did find that the blade was tilted to the right just a drop, and I suspect that this was on purpose, so that the type would mesh exactly at the top. So, I loosend the "trunion" (not sure what it is called) and put in shims from a feeler gauge till it was right on. I think it was .002, but not sure on that. Anyway, it sits near my main bench, and is most convenient.

I did not do the modifications suggested in an old FWW article, and instead ordered a special blade from Forrest. Total cost, including the blade, was about $300, and it is very sweet. One of the things I have used it for is to make a 30-60-90 square, 31" long on the 90 degree side. Wonderful layout tool. Have also made some clamping squares for glue ups. But, mine is nowherre 1/4 ton. I am guessing it is about 200# or so. The glider must really add to the weight.

Have fun with yours.

[Ed Kowaski]

Hi Alan,
Here's a pic of my Hammond. The crosscut fence is a really interesting item albeit of limited use. As you can see the castings are substantial, in fact the whole saw is substantial despite it's duminuitive appearance. :)

I also had a blade machined for the saw (B.C Saw) and am using it. However I don't entirely trust the mounting system. I'm thinking rather then modding the spindle as in the FWW article it might be better to replace the "trunion" block and spindle. The saw could swing a 10" blade with very little work.

My glider is in very good shape, it doesn't look like the slider has ever been adjusted for wear and it's dead nut square and has no play. I'm about half done a crosscut fence with flip stops.

I love this saw and hope to do a ground up rehab one day, in the mean time "it sits near my main bench, and is most convenient."

[Ed Kowaski]

Hi Alan,
Here's a pic of my Hammond. The crosscut fence is a really interesting item albeit of limited use. As you can see the castings are substantial, in fact the whole saw is substantial despite it's duminuitive appearance. :)

I also had a blade machined for the saw (B.C Saw) and am using it. However I don't entirely trust the mounting system. I'm thinking rather then modding the spindle as in the FWW article it might be better to replace the "trunion" block and spindle. The saw could swing a 10" blade with very little work.

My glider is in very good shape, it doesn't look like the slider has ever been adjusted for wear and it's dead nut square and has no play. I'm about half done a crosscut fence with flip stops.

I love this saw and hope to do a ground up rehab one day, in the mean time "it sits near my main bench, and is most convenient."

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/_riff_/Hammondgliderf-313.jpg

[lou sansone]

cool little saw... what was it used for in the first place
lou

[Mark J Bachler]

I have the MM S315 and agree with everything Paul says. You can't get a better saw for the money. Makes everything including straight line ripping solid wood a breeze.

[Ed Kowaski]

Lou,
Used in the printing trades for typesetting (cutting tiny lead slugs). There are a few nifty little small parts holders involved. Computers replaced the printers saw for printers. Several companies made printers saws, my understanding is Hammond was the Martin of this market. Made in Kalamazoo.

Ed

[Ed Kowaski]

Mark, Thanks for replying. I'm becoming quite interested in putting my hands all over one. Inspection you know :P